subject:"Re\: \[OSM\-talk\] \[OSM\-talk\-fr\] Continued aggression against French contributors \(cadastre integration\)"

On 10/18/2012 11:13 PM, Cartinus wrote:
 On 10/18/2012 09:44 PM, Christian Rogel wrote:
 By the way, could you stand receiving any message in a language you
 cannot understand. that seems to be looking for
 infuriating the non-English speaking users?

 On 10/18/2012 10:30 PM, Eric Marsden wrote:
   - the way in which DWG is undertaking its monitoring+blocking, by
 sending aggressive messages to contributors in a language which they
 can be presumed not to understand
 sarcasm on
 So a requirement for the membership of the DWG should be that you are a
 polyglot. Of course all messages about issues in country X should be
 send in the official language and those of all known minority languages
 of the country.
 sarcasm off


 I think it is more reasonable to assume that any contributor to a
 multinational open project like openstreetmap knows how to use
 http://translate.google.com or any other such service.

 The continued use of the argument the message was not in French is
 just silly. You don't have to like that the lingua franca of the
 internet age is English, but if you want to be heard in projects like
 OSM, you better accept it.
I was looking for examples of cultural imperialism - here is a very nice
one, thanks !

Of course, international collaboration requires a common ground and the
Internet has made English an obvious choice in such projects. But that
does not mean that everyone is fluent - only an elite can reach that
linguistic level whereas Openstreetmap need the masses. That is yet
another reason for subsidiarity : local communities police themselves
better using their own cultural framework and there is a role for
ambassadors who will keep the local communities coherent within the
whole. So you don't need to be a polyglot : French contributors have
offered to take that representative role and keep the communication
channels open in tongues that each side understands and accepts.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Paul Norman

 From: Jean-Marc Liotier [mailto:j...@liotier.org]
 Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:41 PM
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against
 French contributors (cadastre integration)

 Of course, international collaboration requires a common ground and the
 Internet has made English an obvious choice in such projects. But that
 does not mean that everyone is fluent - only an elite can reach that
 linguistic level whereas Openstreetmap need the masses. That is yet
 another reason for subsidiarity : local communities police themselves
 better using their own cultural framework and there is a role for
 ambassadors who will keep the local communities coherent within the
 whole. So you don't need to be a polyglot : French contributors have
 offered to take that representative role and keep the communication
 channels open in tongues that each side understands and accepts.

If the French community has contact info (email preferred) for someone who
speaks both English and French and is willing to take on dealing with
contacting users and getting them to use dedicated accounts I'd welcome it.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread THEVENON Julien

 De : Paul Norman penor...@mac.com
 If the French community has contact info (email preferred) for someone who
 speaks both English and French and is willing to take on dealing with
 contacting users and getting them to use dedicated accounts I'd welcome it.

But you already have it (  Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr;and Sly 
sly (sylvain letuffe) li...@letuffe.org;).
They have proposed to make the link between DWG and French Community

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Simon Poole


Am 19.10.2012 00:47, schrieb andrzej zaborowski:

 This is off topic in this thread, but I'd like to set the record
 straight.  Who do you refer to as we when you say you had to spend
 any time sorting those changes?  T


Just so that it is clear to our dear readers: there is no doubt that had
the mappers in Poland used separate accounts (including Andrzej
himself)) for the UMP imports it would  have been substantially less
work to determine  what needed to be redacted. What is correct is that
it would still have required a substantial amount of effort to determine
which changesets/objects could be kept from such accounts. This is due
to the UMP imports essentially not being from one source, but from
multiple individual UMP contributors which may or may not have given
permission to retain their data. A very special case, which is unlikely
to ever occur again.

The UMP imports show nicely how broken at least object level source
tagging is, a large number of objects have/were infected by source tags
from UMP imports without actually being derived from such data requiring
heuristics to determine if they could be kept or not.

Simon

PS: the data that Andrzej was referring to that was mistakenly redacted
was restored and is still available in the DB. The history of those
objects is currently still redacted since there is currently no method
to unredact objects.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Elena ``of Valhalla''

My opinion as an italian contributor

On 2012-10-18 at 14:34:37 -0700, Jérome Armau wrote:
 In non-English-speaking countries, that also means that the average
 contributor:
 - does not have a very good command of English (beyond the tagging
 standards)
 - does not know about services such as Google translate
 
 I'm confident a significant portion of French, German, Italian and Spanish
 contributors are in this case. These people are not represented on this
 mailing list, but need to be taken into account in these decisions.

you can't expect people from the project to speak French, German,
Italian, Spanish, Polish and every other language spoken whenever 
people want to form a local OSM community (or just map).

If the average mapper in your community doesn't understand English 
and doesn't know about online translation services (my feeling 
is that mappers, and the computer-using population, in Italy 
do know about them), what you should do as a local community 
is to setup a translation team that translates important 
messages / threads from this (and other important global mailing lists) 
to and from the local one.

A few examples.

* When there is an important announce in this mailing list it only takes 
  a few hours for it to be posted on the italian ML, usually translated.
* For the licence change, after a few messages had been sent (in
  English) to every user, people from the italian ML tried to 
  sent a personalized message (in Italian) to every local mapper.
* When somebody from the Italian ML has a tagging suggestion there 
  is usually a brief discussion, and then somebody who can write 
  English brings it to the tagging mailing list (and translates 
  back the results to the italian one).

What the foundation/project could do is to setup a framework 
so that the local communities can form translation teams 
that could be used when there is a need to send a private 
message to some member.

Of course there is nothing special with English; if this was 
the victorian internet we could all be speaking French, or 
maybe Esperanto. English is just what we have today as a 
lingua franca, and we have to use it.

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Peter Wendorff


Am 18.10.2012 23:34, schrieb Jérome Armau:
Keep in mind that we're trying to make the openstreetmap project 
accessible to a larger share of the population. In every single 
country, that means appealing to a non-computer-geek crowd. For 
example, the usage of -Djosm.home=dir is dark magic to most 
people. Even though it's acceptable to most users of this list who are 
well used to the inner workings of their computer system, it's just 
plain wrong to advise any non-power-user to do this.

I disagree that it's about non-power users here.
As far as I understood we speak about a relatively big group of mappers 
from France doing these imports.
I understood that it's more or less impossible for the French community 
to speak English, be it to understand received messages written in 
English or documenting the import in a language that would be readable 
for the majority of the worldwide community (I hope, that's still true, 
but it was said in any previous email that the cadastre stuff lacks 
documentation in English in the wiki).


[General note: you in the following refers to the french cadastre 
importers group, not to you, Jérome alone or personally]


Within that relatively large group of importing mappers I guess there is 
one or a small subgroup of power-users.
Why should that be impossible to work out a best practice for that 
imports, e.g. to suggest the separate account and the Djosm.home 
parametrization for JOSM for easy switching?
A .bat and .sh script doing that would be easily set up, I think. I even 
guess (untested) it would be possible to create a script where all josm 
data is syncronized by symlinks or something like that except of the 
user settings to apply on upload.


Obviously you are able to explain how to use the data sets as a source, 
but it should not be possible to add a small script to use for starting 
JOSM when importing? or other stuff?


You managed to create a dedicated JOSM plugin for the cadastre import 
[1], that even contains a josm command line to use because of the memory 
limit of the JVM, but it should be impossible to add a separat parameter 
to that?


Someone of you created a dedicated interface [2] for the cadastre import 
stuff, but a simple tool to enable every mapper to conform to the import 
rules should be impossible?


I agree that issues like mails written in English aren't the best thing 
the DWG could have done to contact about these issues - but as far as I 
know there's no French member in the volunteer group of the DWG who 
want's to help here, and if you complain, that it's not allowed to 
require French mappers to know English enough to read messages received, 
why do you require non-french mappers to know how to write (usually 
that's more difficult) mails in French for the case that particular 
mapper is not able to read English (keep in mind: still a lot of wiki 
pages are not translated to French, same as for most other languages).
At least I think that every mapper on the world should be aware that 
it's an international project; and if I get a message in an 
international project I don't understand and which is not obviously spam 
(I don't know stats about that, but personally I don't see a spam 
problem in osm messaging), I ask back, telling the sender that I'm not 
able to understand it due to language problems, yes, if not possible 
otherwise, I do that in my own language.


If I as a German mapper, who's not able to read or write (or speak) 
French and I would get a message from someone from France in French, I 
would try to translate it, ask someone to translate it for me and/or 
respond with a short note that I'm not able to read that message and 
politely ask for the message in German or English. Everything I read in 
the mails about cadastre is that it's not acceptable to get a Message in 
English, and therefore everything is the DWGs fault (more or less).


French cadastre import as I see it as a non-french speaking mapper seems 
to be some kind of not French local chapter stuff, but isolated French 
OSM community: own rules (to some extend), no documentation for 
foreigners, less motivation to communicate to foreigners when contacted 
by them.


Personally and as I understand many messages of this thread I think most 
issues could be solved, but that needs communication and collaboration; 
and I didn't read ANY question for help (but at least one offer). 
Instead rules that seem not to be objected by many others are constantly 
opposed as not applying for obscure reasons or not acceptable for 
reasons like the mandate of DWG or things like that.


Why?

regards
Peter

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:JOSM/Fr:Plugin/Cadastre-fr
[2] http://cadastre.openstreetmap.fr/


In non-English-speaking countries, that also means that the average 
contributor:
- does not have a very good command of English (beyond the tagging 
standards)

- does not know about services such as Google translate

I'm confident a significant portion of

Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


On 19/10/2012 10:14, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote:
you can't expect people from the project to speak French, German, 
Italian, Spanish, Polish and every other language spoken whenever 
people want to form a local OSM community (or just map). 
That is why intermediaries are needed - and why the English speakers 
must learn to accept the need for international intermediation.

* When there is an important announce in this mailing list it only takes a few 
hours for it to be posted on the italian ML, usually translated.

Yes - and it does not happen magically.

What the foundation/project could do is to setup a framework
so that the local communities can form translation teams
that could be used when there is a need to send a private
message to some member.
No, this is not just about translation. International intermediaries are 
not transparent translation devices - they are not human instances of 
Google Translate.


This is about intercultural relationships - much more complicated than 
mere translation. We don't just have different languages, we have 
different cultures - which means different values, different 
institutions, different practices.


Of course, we also have common languages, common cultures, common 
values, common institutions and common practices - which is how we 
manage to move this project forward.


But at the international level, we can't expect the differences to 
spontaneously vanish into the new world order. Some of them do - the 
Internet does create such magic, but some remain and we have no way 
forward unless we manage that diversity for the greater good.



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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Michael Kugelmann


Am 19.10.2012 10:14, schrieb Elena ``of Valhalla'':

what you should do as a local community
is to setup a translation team that translates important
messages / threads from this (and other important global mailing lists)
to and from the local one.

+1
Just as an example: not every person in Japan speaks English (that's als 
an issue I experience in my daily business). And translation systems on 
the web are not so frequent and most of the teanslations are really bad.
So the Japanese community has translated the very important pages of the 
wiki to Japanese to make it accessable. Maybe that would be a good idea 
for the French commmunity too... (although the automatic translations EN 
= FR are frequent available and not that bad).



Best  regards,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Manfred A. Reiter

Dear Elena,
Dear all, Cari amici, Chers amis,
Liebe Freundinnen und Freunde, Sevgili Arkadaşlar, Dragi prieteni
oí galera, ...

First of all thank you Elena for your comments.

   May I aks you *all* to cool down a little bit.

What I read here in the last days, expresssions like agression, cultural
imperialism, I think that is not the way we should treat each other, nor
in real life, nor here on the mailinglist.

I live near the French and Luxembourg boarder, and we sarreois are seen
from some germans as french and from some french as germans. ;-) ... As I
lived for some years in a very different cultural envirement (South
America) , I think I know the difference between different language and
different culture ...
I try to bring only the FACTS ;-)

I try to resume the facts, as far as I understood the discussion

Preamble:
all (Netherlands, English, Italien, French, German, DWG ...) here on the
list would ensure the quality of data in OSM.

Facts:
1. Our french friends have done and will do imports into the database from
cadastre.

2. Some in DWG are preocoupied about the possiblity to revert data, if they
are false or should damage just existing data.

3. Our german friend Frederik made a proposal to make an anhancement for
JOSM so that it would be easy to upload data with a different account ...
so that JOSM can store multiple identities and when you hit upload you
can select which identity to use from a drop-down

Could that solve the problem?

Are there other proposals to solve the possible quality problem?


and last but not least ... please cool down ... dont talk to me about
cultural differences - try to solve the issue.

I think we have the same aims, and the HOW TO should be resolved.

Cordialement

Manfred

[...]
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Elena ``of Valhalla''

On 2012-10-19 at 10:36:40 +0200, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
 On 19/10/2012 10:14, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote:
 you can't expect people from the project to speak French, German,
 Italian, Spanish, Polish and every other language spoken whenever
 people want to form a local OSM community (or just map).
 That is why intermediaries are needed - and why the English speakers
 must learn to accept the need for international intermediation.

who are these English speakers?

It is true that the project started in the UK, and there is a
significant British community, but I suspect that today the german 
community alone easily outnumbers them.
In the board there are members from UK, Germany, Netherlands 
and Switzerland, I don't think they are all native English speakers.

I don't know where the people in the DWG are from, but I suspect 
that they come from similar areas.

Yes, they all speak English as a second language, and that is the
language they use for OSM work.

 * When there is an important announce in this mailing list it only takes a 
 few hours for it to be posted on the italian ML, usually translated.
 Yes - and it does not happen magically.

No, it has started to happen spontaneously, because somebody in 
the italian comminity saw the need and made it happen.
Nobody in the foundation had to do anything.

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


On 19/10/2012 11:36, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:

I think we have the same aims, and the HOW TO should be resolved.
I do believe that deep down inside we have the same implicit goals. But 
there seem to be a few misunderstanding about how to turn those implicit 
common goals into explicit common rules. We agree on the why, but 
before the how can be worked out, there needs to be a consensus on the 
what... Let's not solve the wrong problem.



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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


On 19/10/2012 11:42, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote:

On 2012-10-19 at 10:36:40 +0200, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

That is why intermediaries are needed - and why the English speakers must learn 
to accept the need for international intermediation.

who are these English speakers?
They are you and me - and everyone on talk@osm. To us, using English as 
a working language comes naturally - both of us probably interact daily 
with foreigners in both our personal and professional lives. But don't 
mistake us for the average French or the average Italian - go on the 
street and speak English to random people, even in cosmopolitan Paris... 
The results will be disappointing.


The mere fact that we give the time and the energy to enter this debate 
is a sign that we are not a random sample of the local contributors. We 
make ourselves visible, but we are a minority. You will never read 
messages here from the masses of local contributors for whom English is 
alien. They are the one who have the local knowledge, they are the 
majority and they are the ones who must feel at ease in the project so 
that everyone can benefit from their contributions. If we make 
Openstreetmap a playground for an internationalist technocratic elite, 
we lose them. It works well for the Linux kernel where success and the 
greater good are correlated to elitist technocratic values - but 
Openstreetmap is different because global success depends on local roots.


Reaching out to those strange people is not optional.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Manfred A. Reiter

Cher Jean-Marc and all

2012/10/19 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org

 On 19/10/2012 11:36, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:

 I think we have the same aims, and the HOW TO should be resolved.


Tu crois qu'il est juste de répondre seulement à une phrase? Non, je ne
croix pas. Ca c'est tout simple!


  I do believe that deep down inside we have the same implicit goals.


Fine I wrote:

*Preamble:*
*all (Netherlands, English, Italien, French, German, DWG ...) here on the
list would ensure the quality of data in OSM.*
*
*
*Facts:*
*1. Our french friends have done and will do imports into the database from
cadastre.*
*2. Some in DWG are preocoupied about the possiblity to revert data, if
they are false or should damage just existing data.*
*3. Our german friend Frederik made a proposal to make an anhancement for
JOSM so that it would be easy to upload data with a different account ...
so that JOSM can store multiple identities and when you hit upload you
can select which identity to use from a drop-down*
*
*
*Could that solve the problem?*
*Are there other proposals to solve the possible quality problem?*

*and last but not least ... please cool down ... dont talk to me about
cultural differences - try to solve the issue.*
*
*
*I think we have the same aims, and the HOW TO should be resolved.  *

But there seem to be a few misunderstanding about how to turn those
implicit
common goals into explicit common rules. We agree on the why, but before
the how can be worked out, there needs to be a consensus on the what...
Let's not solve the wrong problem.


If my questions were false could you please bring the right questions,

If you raise your questions - please give me/us a hint in which direction
we must think to detect the right problem you talked about - and it would
be nice to have at least an idea what could help to resolve the right
problems.

I think, we need solutions.
If you like to do an academic dispute of that, I will stop my postings here
immedately.

Cordialement


Manfred
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread f . dos . santos



 De : Paul Norman penor...@mac.com 
 If the French community has contact info (email preferred) for someone who 
 speaks both English and French and is willing to take on dealing with 
 contacting users and getting them to use dedicated accounts I'd welcome it. 


But you already have it ( Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr; and Sly 
sly (sylvain letuffe) li...@letuffe.org; ). 
They have proposed to make the link between DWG and French Community 


Cheers 
Julien 

In the sentence you miss the part and getting them to use dedicated accounts, 
I'm not sure the 2 candidates support this idea ...



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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Christian Quest

No problem for me as long as the process in setting such hard rules is
transparent, community driven and reaches a consensus which is
obviously not the case at all stages here.
That's why I ask questions about governance... but nobody seems to be
interested and prefer to keep on focusing the dedicated account/import
issue which maybe seen as a way to avoid talking about governance.


2012/10/19  f.dos.san...@free.fr:


 De : Paul Norman penor...@mac.com
 If the French community has contact info (email preferred) for someone who
 speaks both English and French and is willing to take on dealing with
 contacting users and getting them to use dedicated accounts I'd welcome it.


But you already have it ( Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr; and Sly 
sly (sylvain letuffe) li...@letuffe.org; ).
They have proposed to make the link between DWG and French Community


Cheers
Julien

 In the sentence you miss the part and getting them to use dedicated 
 accounts, I'm not sure the 2 candidates support this idea ...



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-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquest

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Alex Barth

FWIW, I'm interested to see the disagreeing parties to get together and work 
out a solution, I'm a friend of subsidiarity, but we clearly have a couple of 
OSM-global issues to solve:

- proper tracking of imports given current technical limitations
- ideal solutions and the path there
- clarification of proper level of subsidiarity for import best practices

On Oct 19, 2012, at 6:50 AM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote:

 No problem for me as long as the process in setting such hard rules is
 transparent, community driven and reaches a consensus which is
 obviously not the case at all stages here.
 That's why I ask questions about governance... but nobody seems to be
 interested and prefer to keep on focusing the dedicated account/import
 issue which maybe seen as a way to avoid talking about governance.
 
 
 2012/10/19  f.dos.san...@free.fr:
 
 
 De : Paul Norman penor...@mac.com
 If the French community has contact info (email preferred) for someone who
 speaks both English and French and is willing to take on dealing with
 contacting users and getting them to use dedicated accounts I'd welcome it.
 
 
 But you already have it ( Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr; and 
 Sly sly (sylvain letuffe) li...@letuffe.org; ).
 They have proposed to make the link between DWG and French Community
 
 
 Cheers
 Julien
 
 In the sentence you miss the part and getting them to use dedicated 
 accounts, I'm not sure the 2 candidates support this idea ...
 
 
 
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 -- 
 Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquest
 
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http://twitter.com/lxbarth
tel (+1) 202 250 3633





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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


On 19/10/2012 13:07, Alex Barth wrote:

FWIW, I'm interested to see the disagreeing parties to get together and work 
out a solution, I'm a friend of subsidiarity, but we clearly have a couple of 
OSM-global issues to solve:

- proper tracking of imports given current technical limitations
- ideal solutions and the path there
- clarification of proper level of subsidiarity for import best practices
Yes - and when we do that, let's hear from other large local communities 
so that this discussion stops being about France vs. The World : every 
place with a local contributors organization needs to be part of this 
because they will eventually all face the same issues in the future.



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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Cartinus

On 10/19/2012 08:40 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
 I was looking for examples of cultural imperialism - here is a very nice
 one, thanks !

You cut off the P.S. No, English is not my native language. and missed
the .nl in my e-mail address.


-- 
---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


On 19/10/2012 14:35, Cartinus wrote:

On 10/19/2012 08:40 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:

I was looking for examples of cultural imperialism - here is a very nice one, 
thanks !

You cut off the P.S. No, English is not my native language. and missed
the .nl in my e-mail address

Willing vassals are part of every empire.



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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Olivier Croquette

On Oct 19, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
 Preamble:
 all (Netherlands, English, Italien, French, German, DWG ...) here on the list 
 would ensure the quality of data in OSM.
 
 Facts:
 1. Our french friends have done and will do imports into the database from 
 cadastre.
 
 2. Some in DWG are preocoupied about the possiblity to revert data, if they 
 are false or should damage just existing data.
 
 3. Our german friend Frederik made a proposal to make an anhancement for JOSM 
 so that it would be easy to upload data with a different account ... so that 
 JOSM can store multiple identities and when you hit upload you can select 
 which identity to use from a drop-down
 
 Could that solve the problem?

Hi Manfred !

I think the answer is in the question :
- Using a different account has no impact on quality
- Reverting possibilities are not depending on the accounts used (AFAIK)

From the beginning, the solution pushed is always different accounts, but we 
are still missing a clear problem statement. At least I am !
Once we have it, I am sure our local experts can work something out with the 
DWD.

Also, at this point of the discussion, I would like to state something 
important :

I am a rather typical french contributor. Like many of them, I have started 
contributing based on my GPS tracker and manual editing in JOSM. Later on, I 
have discovered the great tools and documentation created by our french experts 
to work with the cadaster data, so I have also integrated it for 2 towns I know 
very well into OSM. It involved a lot of manual work, so it took a lot of time, 
but I am happy with the process, the added value to the map, and the quality of 
the result.

I have more or less followed the discussion about the separated account, and 
from my perspective, what I see is:
1) The cadaster integration process as defined works very well is now forbidden 
by a group of people I never heard of before (DWD)
2) I don't understand the background of the rule for a specific account
3) The decision process that led to that rule is completely opaque 
4) No one who works on the cadaster understand or accept the rule, not even our 
local experts, who I personally trust and respect very much
5) Our local experts are pretty much ignored by the DWD. The discussion gets 
nowhere. Proposals to help seem to be ignored

Trying to summarize : an autonomous, dedicated, competent local group is 
blocked because of a rule that was defined silently and centrally, and that 
nobody from the group understands.
This is hurting my motivation to work on OSM pretty bad. And the longer it gets 
discussed, the worse it becomes.

As a simple OSM contributor and foundation member, I demand that the foundation 
and the DWD define an transparent process that involves the local groups and 
experts to define such global rules. Until such a process is agreed on, 
communicated and implemented, this kind of rule can't be enforced by force like 
currently.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Olivier Croquette

On Oct 19, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
 and last but not least ... please cool down ... dont talk to me about 
 cultural differences - try to solve the issue.

Oh, and by the way, I really don't think the root cause of the situation has 
anything to do with cultural differences, but rather with the fact that a 
process with works fine locally conflicts with a general rule. The problem 
would be exactly the same with another country.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Manfred A. Reiter

Hi Oliver ...

thank you for a factual and explanatory answer.
At least I hope you can stop the flamewar.



2012/10/19 Olivier Croquette m...@ocroquette.de

 On Oct 19, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
  Preamble:
  all (Netherlands, English, Italien, French, German, DWG ...) here on the
 list would ensure the quality of data in OSM.
 


[...]


 Hi Manfred !

 I think the answer is in the question :
 - Using a different account has no impact on quality


sure.


 - Reverting possibilities are not depending on the accounts used (AFAIK)


so I understood it wrong ... sorry...

[...]

thank you once more for explanations.

Manfred
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


On 19/10/2012 15:30, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:

At least I hope you can stop the flamewar.
Talking about that, members of the talk-fr mailing list are discussing 
pragmatic solutions that might bring everyone together at last:
- On the political plane, there is talk about how a qualified 
representative might take a liaising role in import moderation conflicts.
- On the technical plane, there is talk about how additional JOSM 
functionality might enable a process that will satisfy everyone.


So we might soon have a community-validated material for a formal 
proposal on talk@osm about those two issues.



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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread andrzej zaborowski

On 19 October 2012 09:17, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 ..
 The UMP imports show nicely how broken at least object level source
 tagging is, a large number of objects have/were infected by source tags
 from UMP imports without actually being derived from such data requiring
 heuristics to determine if they could be kept or not.

I disagree, what you're seeing is a result of a redaction logic based
on individual OSM entity's history.  As Frederik wrote in an email
probably over two years ago, anything relying on the object Id
persistence is outright broken.  This is exactly what the bot logic
relied on and fixing it will require heuristics.

Tagging entire changesets is at least equally broken because it
infects the clean edits in the changeset, while objects who's Id
changes later may be wrongly detected as clean.  It's a bigger
tradeoff.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-19 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
 Talking about that, members of the talk-fr mailing list are 
 discussing pragmatic solutions that might bring everyone together

Good luck. I tried that last month:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2012-September/064482.html

and immediately got shouted down by Christian:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-fr/2012-September/048512.html

at which point I pretty much lost the will to engage. :(

cheers
Richard





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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Jo

(Désolé d'envoyer ce mail en anglais sur la liste talk-fr, mais c'est
plutôt dirigé vers talk en général)

I have been following talk-fr myself and my opinion on the 'efforts' of
pnorman is that he is trying very hard to chase away well meaning
contributors in France. The French cadastre is just one of many sources of
data (I wish we'd have access to ours in Belgium, as the contributors in
Holland and France do).

The French are integrating the data of the cadastre, their surveys, their
local knowledge and Bing aerial images to improve Openstreetmap.org as a
whole. They are not doing a bulk import that needs to be sorted out later
on.

If it were 1 person doing such an import department by department, then it
would make a lot of sense for this person to create that separate account,
but that's not how they chose to proceed. So the requirement for using a
separate account doesn't hold water.

The local community's opinion should be more important in this matter, than
the opinion of one person in the UK and the DWG should wield its power to
block actual acts of vandalism, instead of annoying good contributors.

The French community is trying for quite a while already to talk to the
DWG, which has some results, but rather too slowly. As long as no
resolution has been reached they seem to expect the French contributors to
change their behaviour (and create a separate account when making use of
the cadastre), where it would be more logical that they stop their actions
of scaring away contributors with mails in a language those contributors
can't be expected to understand.

So pnorman: For starters, write your emails in French when adressing people
in France, if you feel you have to write them. As it is now, they get an
email out of the blue making them wonder what they did wrong, whereas they
did everything as the local community expects them to do it.

You are creating a lot of ill will, which is kind of odd in a project where
we depend on the contributions of all people who want to spend their time
on it.

Polyglot

2012/10/18 Eric Marsden eric.mars...@free.fr

 Hello,

 It is clear from discussions on the talk-fr mailing list that DWG
 members (in particular, Paul Norman) are continuing to hassle French
 contributors who are integrating cadastre data in a manner which is
 perfectly compatible with the local community guidelines for this source
 of data. These messages are being sent in English (perhaps DWG members
 need to be reminded -- again -- that some people are not able to
 understand English) and are aggressive in nature. This is despite
 sustained efforts over several months by members of the French
 community, who have volunteered to act as local intermediaries in this
 important and sensitive process of communicating with and helping
 contributors in a constructive manner.

 I am having trouble understanding how a group of people who presumably
 wish to make a positive contribution to this fantastic community-based
 project can be so blind to such basic principles of communication,
 community building, and simple respect for fellow human beings. My
 impression is that the majority of the anti-social behaviour is coming
 from a single person, and that other group members are unwilling to take
 a stand on this issue.

 Please take this opportunity to reflect on a proposed policy which you
 could decide upon as a group, propose for comment from OSM contributors
 (for example via the talk@ mailing list), document on the OSMF web site,
 and ensure that all DWG members follow the policy (no loose canons on
 deck -- the current situation is killing contributors).

 --
 Eric Marsden

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

2012/10/18 Jo winfi...@gmail.com:
 The French are integrating the data of the cadastre, their surveys, their
 local knowledge and Bing aerial images to improve Openstreetmap.org as a
 whole. They are not doing a bulk import that needs to be sorted out later
 on.
 The local community's opinion should be more important in this matter, than
 the opinion of one person in the UK and the DWG should wield its power to
 block actual acts of vandalism, instead of annoying good contributors.


please also see the other side's motivation: there is good reason not
to put meta data into the main database but on a changeset level,
still your local guidelines apparently lead to filling the global
database up with source-tags:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/source#values
(There are roughly spoken more than 7 times cadastre source-tags than
there are for example source=bing tags)

There is generally a problem with entering data for which you are not
the full rights holder and which is not in the PD. The data you
import/merge has strings attached (requires attribution which may not
be removed) which might lead to removal of the data in the case the
active contributors choose to switch to a more open license (e.g.
cc0), so it is very important that this data is easily identificable.

The guidelines for imports are clear (use distinct account, make an
information page in the wiki). IMHO this is not a very complicated
requirement, but I agree it could - on a technical level - be made
easier to manage multiple accounts. Maybe someone of the French
community (or someone else) has the time and expertise to code an
extension for JOSM which would allow to change between multiple
accounts on the fly or assign the edits of the same session in the
editor to different accounts while editing and on upload this would
automatically create several changesets (one for each account)? Maybe
on the server side we could allow several OSM accounts for the same
email adress (not sure if this is already the case, but from former
discussions I remember that this was one of the concerns)?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread sly (sylvain letuffe)

[I know it might be painfull to continue this discussion on talk, but it's 
even worse on talk-fr as lots of people don't read english and will be anoyed 
by this discussion, so I'm switching to an english talking mailing list]

Frederik,
 
 See, the same applies to DWG as well. It is utterly trivial for someone 
 to create a separate account for Cadastre work - a matter of five 
 minutes, or less. So we wonder: Why is this such a big deal for people?

Hey ? this argument is flawed : people don't do things because they are easy 
to do, people do things because they are usefull (or fun)!

And you failed, for now, to explain the french community what usefullness 
creating a second account for cadastre work was.
And as far as we have considered that matter, not only is it useless in our 
case, but it creates several new problems that make it even worse.
- creating and using a second account isn't trivial, it might be for you, 
but we are targeting contributors with good local knowledge first, and they 
probably don't have all skills (or time) in creating a new email (needed) 
because they allready have theirs, (company email ?), no 
gmail/hotmail/whatever access at work
- Even if creating it isn't that hard in most cases, it also means switching 
account every now and then in JOSM to distinguish contribution directly from 
cadastre files, and those from bing/survey/knowledge
- Most people don't need a second email, they will just create it to please 
the DWG and will sooner or later stop monitoring it ! And that is even worse 
because we cannot contact them anymore !
 

 Now if someone is unwilling to do even this little bit of work in order 
 to make it easier for the rest of the community
[source needed]

 - and that includes DWG  

Here we are I guess ? You don't currently have the proper tools to detect true 
vandalism and cadastre import blinks side by side with other bad edits ?
If that's it, just tel us how we can improve on our way so that you can detect 
those edits !
Hint : You can detect it because it as a source=*cadastre* in most, if not 
all, elements.
And we have tools and team to detect real bad cadastre work (though not 
perfect yet).
 
 A Cadastre import is something that should only be done by people who 
 take this seriously, who are diligent, who know the rules and follow 
 them - in tagging as well as elsewhere.
 
 For someone who possesses all these skills, creating an extra import 
 account should be easy.
 
 There has been some discussion around the question of whether Cadastre 
 work counts as an import or not. I am willing to accept that someone who 
 uploads 100 houses is not importing something; it is conceivable that he 
 has actually looked at every single one of these houses. But someone who 
 uploads 1 houses in one day is clearly making an import; there's no 
 way these houses have really been individually (!) reviewed.

This has been discussed dozen of time allready : you seam to assume that 
individually reviewed buildings are better than those imported from cadastre.
This is just unbacked up claim.
Cadastre data was built from guys on the ground, with survey means order of 
magnitude better as precision is concerned than we could ever have in OSM.
The data we have, as we have worked with it for years, and analysed is far 
better than what could (probably) ever be done with approximativ aerial 
tracing.
And it is much faster to include.
You think people should create data one hand in the back by mass clicking on 
an outdated aerial image ?
Sorry, we think we have better things to do of our time.
You know what I think ? you just became an anti-import guy no matter what

I do consider myself being in a sort of anti-import group as well, because 
most of them tends to be harmfull to the data and it's community, but I 
learnt that to every rule there should be exceptions because not every 
imports are the same.

I am not, myself, importing cadastre buildings because I think it could be 
better done. But I understood the french community by taking time to listen 
and compare pros and cons of such building imports.

 Bye
 Frederik
 -- 
 Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

ps: sorry if the wording of my email seams excessive, but I completly fail 
to understand why you can't even reach the conclusion that there is 
a reasonnable doublt and keep blocking users during the negociations.


-- 
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qui suis-je : http://sly.letuffe.org
email perso : sylvain chez letuffe un point org

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread THEVENON Julien

Hi Martin,

You forgot to put the French list in cc


 There is generally a problem with entering data for which you are not
 the full rights holder and which is not in the PD. The data you
 import/merge has strings attached (requires attribution which may not
 be removed) which might lead to removal of the data in the case the
 active contributors choose to switch to a more open license (e.g.
 cc0), so it is very important that this data is easily identificable.

I was thinking that this issues was addressed by the CT providing all rights to 
the OSMF for data added to OSM.
Am I wrong ?


 Maybe
 on the server side we could allow several OSM accounts for the same
 email adress (not sure if this is already the case, but from former
 discussions I remember that this was one of the concerns)?

I test it few minutes ago and I confirm this is not possible.
IMHO this is an issue.

best regards
Julien






 De : Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
À : winfi...@gmail.com 
Cc : osm talk@openstreetmap.org; d...@osmfoundation.org 
Envoyé le : Jeudi 18 octobre 2012 13h10
Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French 
contributors (cadastre integration)
 
2012/10/18 Jo winfi...@gmail.com:
 The French are integrating the data of the cadastre, their surveys, their
 local knowledge and Bing aerial images to improve Openstreetmap.org as a
 whole. They are not doing a bulk import that needs to be sorted out later
 on.
 The local community's opinion should be more important in this matter, than
 the opinion of one person in the UK and the DWG should wield its power to
 block actual acts of vandalism, instead of annoying good contributors.


please also see the other side's motivation: there is good reason not
to put meta data into the main database but on a changeset level,
still your local guidelines apparently lead to filling the global
database up with source-tags:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/source#values
(There are roughly spoken more than 7 times cadastre source-tags than
there are for example source=bing tags)

There is generally a problem with entering data for which you are not
the full rights holder and which is not in the PD. The data you
import/merge has strings attached (requires attribution which may not
be removed) which might lead to removal of the data in the case the
active contributors choose to switch to a more open license (e.g.
cc0), so it is very important that this data is easily identificable.

The guidelines for imports are clear (use distinct account, make an
information page in the wiki). IMHO this is not a very complicated
requirement, but I agree it could - on a technical level - be made
easier to manage multiple accounts. Maybe someone of the French
community (or someone else) has the time and expertise to code an
extension for JOSM which would allow to change between multiple
accounts on the fly or assign the edits of the same session in the
editor to different accounts while editing and on upload this would
automatically create several changesets (one for each account)? Maybe
on the server side we could allow several OSM accounts for the same
email adress (not sure if this is already the case, but from former
discussions I remember that this was one of the concerns)?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


Hi,

On 10/18/12 08:43, Jo wrote:

The French are integrating the data of the cadastre, their surveys,
their local knowledge and Bing aerial images to improve
Openstreetmap.org as a whole. They are not doing a bulk import that
needs to be sorted out later on.


Anyone who uploads 1 houses in one day does a bulk import.

Upload 100 houses and I'm prepared to believe you when you say it has 
all been carefully integrated and checked with local knowledge and 
aerial imagery.


But 1 houses? Show me the brain that has enough local knowledge to 
individually verify them, or show me the mapper who compares them 
against aerial imagery. You may call it integrating, but uploading 
1 houses is 99,9% cadastre, 0,1% survey/local knowledge/aerial 
image/whatever.


There are many aspects about the French Cadastre import that can be 
discussed. But the fact that it is an import is crystal clear and I'm 
not prepared to discuss that any further.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread sly (sylvain letuffe)

Hi martin,

 please also see the other side's motivation: there is good reason not
 to put meta data into the main database but on a changeset level,
You have to prove such a claim and then compare it to the bad reasons not to

 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/source#values
 (There are roughly spoken more than 7 times cadastre source-tags than
 there are for example source=bing tags)

A lot of good work isn't it ? and well identified !

 Maybe someone of the French
 community (or someone else) has the time and expertise to code an
 extension for JOSM which would allow to change between multiple
 accounts on the fly
I don't see reasons why we (french communities) should create that plugin 
ourself. In open source software developement, those who look something as a 
problem should fix it themself. We don't have problems with our way of doing 
yet, the DWG has.

However, if someone comes with a JOSM patch to support changeset tags in an 
extended .osm file format like :
changeset_auto_applied_tags
 tag k=comment v=This comes from an automated generated .osm file of 
cadastre buildings and was (hopefully) improved by hand /
 tag k=source v=Cadastre  /
/changeset_auto_applied_tags

I'll be glad to correct, on my side, the building .osm file export toolchain 
to include that.

-- 
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qui suis-je : http://sly.letuffe.org
email perso : sylvain chez letuffe un point org

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Pieren

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 (creating a separate account) Why is this such a big deal for people?

Frederik, It's true that only a small part of the French community
imports buildings. And DWG only detects a part of them, only those
using big changesets.
Once the DWG warning message is sent, it seems that most of importers
are just stoping and waiting. Only a minor part accepts the separate
account rule and goes ahead.

Then, instead of asking why you don't accept this simple rule for
imports ?, you should better ask why this simple rule is not
accepted for this import ?
Even if you don't ask, I will reply:
- no argument has been able to convince people that this rule is
necessary here (I will not repeat all the arguments already mentionned
in the past weeks).

Where contributors accept many rules (like do not tag incorrectly for
the renderer, do not duplicate, etc), they see this rule as a
religious mantra imposed by a group exceeding his mission.
Finally, the story is even more ironic. The DWG does not care about
the quality of the cadastre buildings import and how good they are
integrated with the existing map as soon as a separate user account is
used. Where the French community is more worrying about the quality
and integration than the quantity or the user account management.

A small group of local contributors has been recently set-up to watch
the builing imports in France. If the group detects some bad
behaviours like uploads interrupted, duplicates, no integration with
the existing data, then this group will contact the importers and even
ask some support to the DWG to temporary suspend an account if
necessary. I still hope that this group and DWG will be able to work
together. But please, do not exclude contributors just for the
separate user account rule that lost OSM primary goal : creates and
provides free geographic data

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Peter Wendorff


Am 18.10.2012 13:45, schrieb sly (sylvain letuffe):

Hi martin,


please also see the other side's motivation: there is good reason not
to put meta data into the main database but on a changeset level,

You have to prove such a claim and then compare it to the bad reasons not to


http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/source#values
(There are roughly spoken more than 7 times cadastre source-tags than
there are for example source=bing tags)

A lot of good work isn't it ? and well identified !


Maybe someone of the French
community (or someone else) has the time and expertise to code an
extension for JOSM which would allow to change between multiple
accounts on the fly

I don't see reasons why we (french communities) should create that plugin
ourself. In open source software developement, those who look something as a
problem should fix it themself. We don't have problems with our way of doing
yet, the DWG has.

However, if someone comes with a JOSM patch to support changeset tags in an
extended .osm file format like :
changeset_auto_applied_tags
  tag k=comment v=This comes from an automated generated .osm file of
cadastre buildings and was (hopefully) improved by hand /
  tag k=source v=Cadastre  /
/changeset_auto_applied_tags

I'll be glad to correct, on my side, the building .osm file export toolchain
to include that.
Changeset tags are possible already as far as I know, and the API 
documentation agrees with my memory here: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.6#Tags


I used these e.g. for testing here: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/13543537 (there are the 
rows about creation time, closing time, author and  tags  (and 
bounding box).


To set these in josm use the corresponding tab in the upload dialog of 
JOSM. Predefined here is usually the created_by tag; and the changeset 
comment from the default tab goes to the changeset tags, too.


regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread sly (sylvain letuffe)

Hi Peter,

 To set these in josm use the corresponding tab in the upload dialog of 
 JOSM. 

Sorry for beeing unclear, yes I know that, I was refering to the other way 
round.
A way to automatically add changeset tags in JOSM, without I forgot, too 
long, too hard, too... based on a previous importer plugin (may it be aerial 
tracing, cadastre import files)
Some way to automatically add tags in a changeset based on user type of 
mapping

-- 
sly
qui suis-je : http://sly.letuffe.org
email perso : sylvain chez letuffe un point org

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


Hi,

On 10/18/12 13:56, Pieren wrote:

Even if you don't ask, I will reply:
- no argument has been able to convince people that this rule is
necessary here (I will not repeat all the arguments already mentionned
in the past weeks).


That is actually not new in DWG work. It does sometimes happen that we 
cannot convince people that our rules are right. For example, there are 
people who delete a road even though it is there on the ground. We say 
you shouldn't delete the road; if it is there on the ground, it can be 
in OSM. - they say but I don't want people to walk past my house all 
the time and your map leads them to it. We say then use an 
access=private tag, they say no, that doesn't work.


In the end, we have no choice but to block them; if, even though we 
tried, someone doesn't want to play by the rules then he can't play at all.


Just because you are not convinced that a certain rule is good, doesn't 
mean it doesn't apply to you.



Where contributors accept many rules (like do not tag incorrectly for
the renderer, do not duplicate, etc), they see this rule as a
religious mantra imposed by a group exceeding his mission.


Yes, and *that* is the problem. This whole discussion is now not about 
will I spend 5 minutes to create an extra account (which would be no 
problem for anybody) but about will I allow those evil non-French 
people to dictate my way of life. And in my eyes, there are a few 
individuals in the French community to blame for this, who have 
essentially whipped up emotions with their fellow countrymen and styled 
this into a big us-versus-them battle which was totally unnecessary.


Would it really be so hard for French data importers to say: Ok, I 
don't really understand why they want this extra account thing but if it 
makes them happy I'll just do it? I mean, here we are, the OSM project, 
happily accepting Gigabytes upon Gigabytes of French Cadastre data, 
using OSM's servers to render this into nice map tiles of French cities, 
serving it up to whoever comes asking... can't the French community in 
return just follow such a simple request? Is it really too much to ask?



Finally, the story is even more ironic. The DWG does not care about
the quality of the cadastre buildings import and how good they are
integrated with the existing map as soon as a separate user account is
used.


Trust me, I do care, and if I had anything to say, the whole Cadastre 
import would be stopped completely until adequate quality control 
measures were in place, and tools and capacities had been developed to a 
point where the Cadastre data would not dwarf everything else on the 
planet. (Just to recap - if someone now downloads a 20 GB planet file, 
1/6 of that is just Cadastre - essentially third-party data mixed in 
with OSM.)


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Peter Wendorff


Am 18.10.2012 14:08, schrieb sly (sylvain letuffe):

Hi Peter,


To set these in josm use the corresponding tab in the upload dialog of
JOSM.

Sorry for beeing unclear, yes I know that, I was refering to the other way
round.
A way to automatically add changeset tags in JOSM, without I forgot, too
long, too hard, too... based on a previous importer plugin (may it be aerial
tracing, cadastre import files)
Some way to automatically add tags in a changeset based on user type of
mapping

Even that should be possible, at least some aerial imagery adds the 
changeset comments automatically in josm, so I guess it's possible to do 
that in the plugin as well.


regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Pieren

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Just because you are not convinced that a certain rule is good, doesn't mean
 it doesn't apply to you.

C'mon Frederik. We are not talking about a single contributor. Perhaps
from outside, you have this impression but it is really 99% of the
French community. Really. We are contacted by people coming for the
first time on our mailing list (or directly to well known
contributors) asking why this rule is an incomprehensive show-stopper.

 I spend 5 minutes to create an extra account (which would be no problem for
 anybody)

It's more than 5 minutes if you have to create first a new email
account (I know now all the tricks to duplicate our first email
account but then explain why a different email address is still
required) then spend time to continuously switch from one account to
the other.

 And in my eyes, there are a few individuals in the French
 community to blame for this, who have essentially whipped up emotions with
 their fellow countrymen and styled this into a big us-versus-them battle
 which was totally unnecessary.

No, no, you are really wrong here. I don't know from where you got
this impression but it is really not only few individuals.

 Is it really too much to ask?

Because if they do so, they will have to continuously switch from one
account to the other. It is not like adapting and calling a perl
script to upload tons of data. These guys really juggle between
different sources when they contribute with JOSM. Once you understand
how people work, then you have to admit that the separate account is
more than an easy constraint.

 Trust me, I do care, and if I had anything to say, the whole Cadastre import
 would be stopped completely until adequate quality control measures were in
 place,
And we know that. And we have some legitimate suspicions that the
primary goal of this rule is to slow down or stop this import. If this
is not the case, then we could find quickly a good compromise.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

2012/10/18 THEVENON Julien julien_theve...@yahoo.fr:
 There is generally a problem with entering data for which you are not
 the full rights holder and which is not in the PD. The data you
 import/merge has strings attached (requires attribution which may not
 be removed) which might lead to removal of the data in the case the
 active contributors choose to switch to a more open license (e.g.
 cc0), so it is very important that this data is easily identificable.

 I was thinking that this issues was addressed by the CT providing all rights
 to the OSMF for data added to OSM.
 Am I wrong ?


I think that you might be wrong. Actually for cadastre data you can't
provide all rights to the OSMF because you don't have all rights. The
relevant article in the contributor terms seems this one (sorry list,
this has to be in French):2. Droits concédés. Vous concédez à OSMF,
dans les conditions définies aux articles 3 et 4, de manière
irrévocable et perpétuelle, une licence internationale, non exclusive
et non soumise aux droits patrimoniaux d’auteur, aux droits des
auteurs de bases de données ou à tout autre droit, relatif à un
élément du Contenu, quel que soit le support. 

My French is a bit rusty but I think that this is the crucial part: 
non soumise aux droits patrimoniaux d’auteur

Now compare to this paragraph:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Cadastre_Fran%C3%A7ais/Conditions_d%27utilisation#La_r.C3.A9ponse_de_la_DGI

En revanche, la rediffusion de ces données n'est autorisée que pour
les produits composites, c'est à dire ceux constitués pour partie
seulement du plan cadastral, et sous réserve que soient clairement
indiqués l'origine et le millésime des données cadastrales utilisées

Neither am I completely sure whether I understood the French paragraph
correctly nor am I an expert in law, but there might indeed be some
incompatibility between the CTs and these obligations.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread THEVENON Julien

 De : Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com

 My French is a bit rusty but I think that this is the crucial part: 
 non soumise aux droits patrimoniaux d’auteur

 Now compare to this paragraph:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Cadastre_Fran%C3%A7ais/Conditions_d%27utilisation#La_r.C3.A9ponse_de_la_DGI


 En revanche, la rediffusion de ces données n'est autorisée que pour
 les produits composites, c'est à dire ceux constitués pour partie
 seulement du plan cadastral, et sous réserve que soient clairement
 indiqués l'origine et le millésime des données cadastrales utilisées


Hi Martin,

it means that we cannot distribute raw data coming from Cadastre alone.
We are allowed to distribute them only if they are part of composite 
dataset/work ( = mixed with data coming from other sources ) and only if we add 
to them the information that they are coming from cadastre and the year of 
cadastre ( = our tag source= Cadastres 2012 )
So the integration in OSM with the source tag by French contributor made them 
part of a composite dataset with cadastre attribution so this is fine.

PS : I remove talk-fr from cc as people are complaining about non french mails

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Henning Scholland

Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of 
an osm-planet and publish this extract under ODbL it is illegal?
If so, this is a very problematic thing. It should be allowed, to do 
anything that ODbL-license (and also cc-by-sa license did this before) 
allows me to do with the data.


Henning

Am 18.10.2012 15:02, schrieb THEVENON Julien:

Hi Martin,

it means that we cannot distribute raw data coming from Cadastre alone.
We are allowed to distribute them only if they are part of composite 
dataset/work ( = mixed with data coming from other sources ) and only 
if we add to them the information that they are coming from cadastre 
and the year of cadastre ( = our tag source= Cadastres 2012 )
So the integration in OSM with the source tag by French contributor 
made them part of a composite dataset with cadastre attribution so 
this is fine.


PS : I remove talk-fr from cc as people are complaining about non 
french mails


Cheers
Julien



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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Pieren

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Henning Scholland o...@aighes.de wrote:
 Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of an
 osm-planet and publish this extract under ODbL it is illegal?

There is no difference between ODbl and CC-by-SA on this point. But
please, forward your question on the legal list if you wish. FYI, this
source is used since 5 years in OSM...
It is strange that each time the question about the seperate account
is raised, it is systematically diverted to something else.

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

2012/10/18 Pieren pier...@gmail.com:
 On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Henning Scholland o...@aighes.de wrote:
 Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of an
 osm-planet and publish this extract under ODbL it is illegal?

 There is no difference between ODbl and CC-by-SA on this point. But
 please, forward your question on the legal list if you wish. FYI, this
 source is used since 5 years in OSM...
 It is strange that each time the question about the seperate account
 is raised, it is systematically diverted to something else.


5 years ago we didn't have the CT which changed a lot. You should also
keep in mind that there is (as far as I found  in the wiki) only
documentation in French, so this might have been overlooked, but I
agree with you: basically also under cc-by-sa it might have been
problematic to integrate data with this special requirement (that the
data must be merged with other data) attached to it.

E.g. it might be forbidden to take a screenshot here and distribute it
(depending on your screen resolution and size):
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=45.463371lon=1.669331zoom=18layers=M

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


Hi,

On 10/18/12 14:41, Pieren wrote:

It's more than 5 minutes if you have to create first a new email
account (I know now all the tricks to duplicate our first email
account but then explain why a different email address is still
required) then spend time to continuously switch from one account to
the other.


Both of these are technical issues that could be solved, and I'm 
prepared to help solve them - at least on the JOSM side, it would be 
easy to make it so that JOSM can store multiple identities and when you 
hit upload you can select which identity to use from a drop-down, and 
as for the many-accounts-one-email question, I'm sure that could be 
solved somehow as well.


If I do that, would that change the attitude towards the separate 
account question, or would it be a a waste of time?


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Pierre Enclos wrote:
 Henning Scholland wrote:
 Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of 
 an osm-planet and publish this extract [...] it is illegal?
 There is no difference between ODbl and CC-by-SA on this point.

Which may be true but is largely irrelevant. :)

Pierre - do you or anyone else have a contact at the Cadastre people so that
we can get an answer to Henning's point?

cheers
Richard





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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Pierre-Alain Dorange

Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 [...]
 But 1 houses? Show me the brain that has enough local knowledge to
 individually verify them, or show me the mapper who compares them 
 against aerial imagery. You may call it integrating, but uploading 
 1 houses is 99,9% cadastre, 0,1% survey/local knowledge/aerial 
 image/whatever.

I've done such thing for my town and your estimation are not good.
Icould not say which percentage exactly of course.
But importing building for a complete town was a process a several days,
resulting often in one changeset.
One changeset do not mean bulk import, it could be several days of work
before... Adding POIs and detail known building, adjust roads, compare
with bing, and so on...

Depending on you JOSM knwoledge this could be done by small set or as a
whole big changeset...

 There are many aspects about the French Cadastre import that can be 
 discussed. But the fact that it is an import is crystal clear and I'm
 not prepared to discuss that any further.

French Cadastre raw data are an import (note that raw data are very good
quality). But often doing this require preparation and adjustement that
are not import.

For my part when i import building for my town (2 years ago) it require
me lot of nights to do so : merging previous node POis into their
correspondong building, remove small errors, adjust existing roads,
detect new empty zone, checking  and adjust against Bing and also
envolve local knwoledge to determine if Cadastre or Bing is the most
updated when there is difference.

I do not say that we don't have to use a specail account, but for good
cadastre importer it will complicated the task (switch between account
is not easy).
But for those who just do bulk import (as you said) it would not annoy
(they do not add any data)...

Conclusions :

Not sure it was the right solution for the DWG problem.

I also want to point that DWG action (lack of communication and direct
foreign message) is not construtive and very bad received by local
community (see french list talk). Communication problem.

Also note that local community import' cadastre from 2009 and that it
was recently that DWG react, it would have to be considered.

I think it was important know to talk.
Perhaps DWG can meet OSM-Fr to discuss this.

-- 
Pierre-Alain Dorange
OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Pierre-Alain Dorange

Henning Scholland o...@aighes.de wrote:

 Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of
 an osm-planet and publish this extract under ODbL it is illegal?

It's now a composite work because users has add tag (adresses, name,
amenity, shop...) to raw original data (and sometime nodes added or
removed). 
It was not original raw data anymore.

Even more all original data were not in OSM : for example one big
information (Parcel identification number and parcel frame) were not
part of data imported (just building) so it was not the whole original
cadastre, it was just a subset that has been modified over time...

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Pierre-Alain Dorange

Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Both of these are technical issues that could be solved, and I'm 
 prepared to help solve them - at least on the JOSM side, it would be 
 easy to make it so that JOSM can store multiple identities and when you
 hit upload you can select which identity to use from a drop-down, and
 as for the many-accounts-one-email question, I'm sure that could be 
 solved somehow as well.

It was probably a good solution (finding a technical solution to switch
easily from one account to another from JOSM).
But there are other good solutions : explain why it was better to do
this into a seperate account. 
There was also very good technical solutions to detect big changeset,no
?

Requiring a seperate account is a very strange solution, difficult to
understand but if we have a agree god, sure we can...
-- 
Pierre-Alain Dorange
OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Christian Quest

So far, the only explanation about the usesulness of the dedicated
account is linked to tracking imported data or I missed something on
the wiki.

If this is the goal, why small changesets of imported data may not
require a dedicated account ?
This data doesn't need to be tracked ?

I'm also really wondering on the tracking of the data thru dedicated
accounts for such highly split imports (as a reminder, the cadastre
data is split with 36000+ datasets, one for each village/town/city in
France).
On how many accounts will the cadastre data will have to be tracked ?
Is there a list of cadastre import dedicated accounts somewhere ?
Maybe a required naming of the account names ?

The more interesting proposal I've seen so far were the bot/import
tags. It really brings a benefit for the tracking and makes the
dedicated account requirement outdated.


I also asked some time ago if it was necessary to have a dedicated
account for each source of imported data ?
If tracking is the goal, it seems logical.

If so, I need one dedicated account for:
- cadastre (administrative boundaries + buildings)
- IGN (geodesic points + GEOFLA place=*)
- schools
- RATP (paris public transport, subway station, and we expect 12000+
bus_stops should be available sooner or later)
- SNCF (railway stations and level crossings)
- La Poste (post office locations)
- Nantes metropole adresses (400.000 imported street by street after
crowdsourced reviewing)
and so on... because that's today's situation with more and more
useful datasets to bring into OSM.


Wake up ! opendata is here, now, and the more (useful) datasets we
find the more it is clear that a mass import is not possible.
We've learned from CLC and Tiger imports... and the map is not blank
as it used to be.


Here is my proposal... have separate guidelines for mass imports and
for split/shared/crowdsource imports.

When a full dataset is imported more or less as is by a very small
number of contributors (possibly just one) in such case, YES, a
dedicated account is a real benefit. With ONE dedicated account, you
track all the imported data.

When the dataset needs to be reworked manually, integrated sometime by
reviewing each object one by one, or sometime group by group, where
the works is share by a lot of contributors, in such cases frankly I
don't see the benefits of the dedicated account(s). The bot/import tag
on changesets is much more efficient.

Christian

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Alex Barth


On Oct 18, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote:

 So far, the only explanation about the usesulness of the dedicated
 account is linked to tracking imported data or I missed something on
 the wiki.

Same here, I'd like to understand this better. Conceptually it seems that 
tracking a source on the changeset is much better as it accomodates for many 
users importing from the same source while not tag spamming on nodes and ways.

 
 If this is the goal, why small changesets of imported data may not
 require a dedicated account ?
 This data doesn't need to be tracked ?
 
 I'm also really wondering on the tracking of the data thru dedicated
 accounts for such highly split imports (as a reminder, the cadastre
 data is split with 36000+ datasets, one for each village/town/city in
 France).
 On how many accounts will the cadastre data will have to be tracked ?
 Is there a list of cadastre import dedicated accounts somewhere ?
 Maybe a required naming of the account names ?
 
 The more interesting proposal I've seen so far were the bot/import
 tags. It really brings a benefit for the tracking and makes the
 dedicated account requirement outdated.
 
 
 I also asked some time ago if it was necessary to have a dedicated
 account for each source of imported data ?
 If tracking is the goal, it seems logical.
 
 If so, I need one dedicated account for:
 - cadastre (administrative boundaries + buildings)
 - IGN (geodesic points + GEOFLA place=*)
 - schools
 - RATP (paris public transport, subway station, and we expect 12000+
 bus_stops should be available sooner or later)
 - SNCF (railway stations and level crossings)
 - La Poste (post office locations)
 - Nantes metropole adresses (400.000 imported street by street after
 crowdsourced reviewing)
 and so on... because that's today's situation with more and more
 useful datasets to bring into OSM.
 
 
 Wake up ! opendata is here, now, and the more (useful) datasets we
 find the more it is clear that a mass import is not possible.
 We've learned from CLC and Tiger imports... and the map is not blank
 as it used to be.
 
 
 Here is my proposal... have separate guidelines for mass imports and
 for split/shared/crowdsource imports.
 
 When a full dataset is imported more or less as is by a very small
 number of contributors (possibly just one) in such case, YES, a
 dedicated account is a real benefit. With ONE dedicated account, you
 track all the imported data.
 
 When the dataset needs to be reworked manually, integrated sometime by
 reviewing each object one by one, or sometime group by group, where
 the works is share by a lot of contributors, in such cases frankly I
 don't see the benefits of the dedicated account(s). The bot/import tag
 on changesets is much more efficient.
 
 Christian
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Christian Rogel

As I said previously, the DGW cannot be only charged about its rude behaviour.

The fault is up to the Foundation. Let 's say ay that the Board of Directors, 
newly elected, has to kept
the Community in peace.

It has to clarify its links with the DWG and precise in which cases a so-called 
efficient rule (and not discussed by
the Community) may be reformed to a statement by which it will reaffirm its 
authority and its sense of diplomacy
for a more united Community.

It 's all politics in a broader sense (and not policy).

By the way, could you stand receiving any message in a language you cannot 
understand. that seems to be looking for
infuriating the non-English speaking users? Not very smart.


Christian Rogel
OSMF member

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Frank Steggink


On 18-10-2012 20:52, Christian Quest wrote:

So far, the only explanation about the usesulness of the dedicated
account is linked to tracking imported data or I missed something on
the wiki.

If this is the goal, why small changesets of imported data may not
require a dedicated account ?
This data doesn't need to be tracked ?

I'm also really wondering on the tracking of the data thru dedicated
accounts for such highly split imports (as a reminder, the cadastre
data is split with 36000+ datasets, one for each village/town/city in
France).
On how many accounts will the cadastre data will have to be tracked ?
Is there a list of cadastre import dedicated accounts somewhere ?
Maybe a required naming of the account names ?

The more interesting proposal I've seen so far were the bot/import
tags. It really brings a benefit for the tracking and makes the
dedicated account requirement outdated.


I also asked some time ago if it was necessary to have a dedicated
account for each source of imported data ?
If tracking is the goal, it seems logical.

If so, I need one dedicated account for:
- cadastre (administrative boundaries + buildings)
- IGN (geodesic points + GEOFLA place=*)
- schools
- RATP (paris public transport, subway station, and we expect 12000+
bus_stops should be available sooner or later)
- SNCF (railway stations and level crossings)
- La Poste (post office locations)
- Nantes metropole adresses (400.000 imported street by street after
crowdsourced reviewing)
and so on... because that's today's situation with more and more
useful datasets to bring into OSM.


Wake up ! opendata is here, now, and the more (useful) datasets we
find the more it is clear that a mass import is not possible.
We've learned from CLC and Tiger imports... and the map is not blank
as it used to be.


Here is my proposal... have separate guidelines for mass imports and
for split/shared/crowdsource imports.

When a full dataset is imported more or less as is by a very small
number of contributors (possibly just one) in such case, YES, a
dedicated account is a real benefit. With ONE dedicated account, you
track all the imported data.

When the dataset needs to be reworked manually, integrated sometime by
reviewing each object one by one, or sometime group by group, where
the works is share by a lot of contributors, in such cases frankly I
don't see the benefits of the dedicated account(s). The bot/import tag
on changesets is much more efficient.

Christian

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Does nobody know about the -Djosm.home=dir parameter you can pass to 
JOSM when starting up? It can be put easily in a shortcut. I've used it 
all the time during imports. When doing integration you only need to 
download the data in another JOSM instance though, but one is 
downloading data all the time when working on OSM.


I find it convenient to have separate accounts, so I can distinguish my 
survey/tracing work from my import work, and the different imports from 
each other. It is also good as a safeguard when data turns out to be 
non-compliant with the OSM license. The requirement to have different 
e-mail accounts is strange and unnecessary, especially if we encourage 
users to use different accounts for imports.


As for having a multitude of accounts, I see no problem with abandoning 
them once the import is complete.


This issue gets way too overblown.

Frank

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Eric Marsden

 fr == Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org writes:

  fr If I do that, would that change the attitude towards the separate
  fr account question, or would it be a a waste of time?

  Frederik, you are focussing on the technical ramifications of this
  rather narrow separate account issue, but in fact, as many of us
  have tried to explain multiple times, the real issues are more
  fundamental:
  
  - the legitimacy of the OSMF DWG concerning monitoring of imports (and
blocking accounts on this basis) is unclear. The DWG mandate, as per
its web page on OSMF's web site, does not include monitoring
imports. I have seen no deliberation of the OSMF board giving DWG
the right to block contributors (who are clearly neither sabotaging
the data nor making foolish beginners' mistakes) on the basis of its
interpretations of import guidelines (please look up the meaning of
the word guidelines). 

  - the process which led the DWG to decide that a separate account
shall be necessary is absolutely opaque. A normal process for such
as change would be to explain your motivations, request feedback
from contributors (for instance via the talk mailing list), then
document the motivations and consequences on the wiki. You have only
documented this requirement, which seems pulled out of your hat.

  - the way in which DWG is undertaking its monitoring+blocking, by
sending aggressive messages to contributors in a language which they
can be presumed not to understand, seemed pretty autistic at first,
and now seems arrogant and bigoted. Indeed, DWG members have continued
in the same way despite repeated attempts to explain the negative
impact that this is having on well-meaning contributors.

  - the way in which DWG has ignored proposals from French contributors
to help act as intermediaries in this respect makes it look like you
wish to avoid the constitution of well-structured local/national
communities, when (in my opinion) this is a major challenge for the
next years of Openstreetmap's growth. 

  Note that none of these issues are specific to the French community,
  but concern OSMF governance, its values, its processes and its degree
  of respect for local communities and for contributors. I have seen no
  effort to address these issues, but rather significant avoidance of
  our numerous messages asking for answers. Please consider changing
  that.
  
-- 
Eric Marsden


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


Christian,

   I think you are mixing up things here.

There is a general requirement for a dedicated import account, and you 
write yourself that you think that it is good to use a dedicated import 
in some cases.


While this requirement is in theory a general requirement, DWG has never 
enforced that and was not planning to enforce it for minor imports of 
the type you mention (reworked manually, objects integrated one by 
one...).


Such imports will generally result in small changesets, small mapper 
productivity (nobody can rework manually and integrate thousands 
of objects per day), and look much more like traditional mapping than 
like an import.


Your argument goes like this:

The rule does not make sense for small, hand-made imports, therefore it 
does not apply to people uploading 1 cadastre buildings at once either.


But there is a difference between small, hand-made imports and the kind 
of mass-import that many people commit when they import cadastre data.


I believe that it would be possible to import cadastre data in the 
hand-made style, and maybe that was indeed originally the intention; 
perhaps some people are actually importing their neighbourhood from 
cadastre data and we don't even notice because they *really* verify 
everything manually and therefore their edits look much more like manual 
edits.


I'm happy to accept that such edits are more using a variety of legal 
third-party material in the mapping process than they are importing 
third-party data, and I will certainly not request that someone creates 
a separate account for taking 100 buildings from their government GIS, 
fixing them up in JOSM, and uploading them.


The same if someone uploads a couple of hand-verified schools in their 
area, or a couple SNCF crossings, or something.


However, as soon as someone sets out to say not

I will map my parent's village, let me check out the available sources 
and use them for help


but

I will take this SNCF dataset and import all level crossings in Alsace

then they are doing an import - even if they are perhaps occasionally 
aligning something by hand.


Until now, DWG has only ever enforced the separate-account rule when 
people were clearly contributing much more data than could possibly be 
manually reviewed.


In a recent message, to talk-it 
(http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2012-September/030778.html), 
Paul writes


We recognize that the line between an import and assisted mapping is 
not currently clearly defined; however all the cases I have seen 
recently clearly were on the import side of that line.


So he calls it assisted mapping, I called it using a variety of legal 
third-party material in the mapping process, we could also call it a 
manually verified, small-scale import.


These things are ok and while it is not currently written, DWG does not 
enforce separate accounts for them. If that is any help, we can try to 
sit down together and try to clarify the line between assisted mapping 
and import.


There are many reasons why we want mass imports clearly separated from 
normal, human-contributed data. We got burnt by this in the license 
change in Poland, where we had to spend massive amounts of time sorting 
between good and bad changesets contributed by the same account. We 
have situations in which it is unclear whether data in OSM is from an 
import or from, say, manual imagery tracing by the user or so; if there 
are doubts about that data quality, we will not hesitate to wholesale 
delete something that was imported (because we know that the script can 
be fixed and it can be imported again), but if there's manual work 
behind it then we'd rather not do that. Believe it or not, we have even 
had complaints from users who felt that their stats (i.e. number of 
objects contributed) were ruined unfairly by other users doing imports. 
Sometimes it turns out a whole import stands on shaky legal ground and 
has to be reverted; in some cases we had to revert a large block of work 
of a particular user because neither the user nor we could exactly say 
which bits were from the incompatible source. That hurts.


Imports dwarf anything else done with an account. Any statistics you run 
on an account will be dominated by the import characteristics. Any 
analyses - even social things like Richard Weait has playfully done - 
won't work with an account that is used by a human mapper and for 
imports at the same time. Importing data is a whole different class of 
activity.


Now of course you (and Alex Barth) have a point when you say: This could 
all be solved by proper source attribution in the changeset! Editors 
could automatically higlight imports/bot edits in the change history so 
that everyone knows that this is data of a different kind. Statistics 
engines could create different league tables, taking into account those 
changesets flagged as imports/bots. Disciplined mappers would always tag 
their changesets properly, and DWG would

Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Mike N


On 10/18/2012 3:57 PM, Frank Steggink wrote:

Does nobody know about the -Djosm.home=dir parameter you can pass to
JOSM when starting up? It can be put easily in a shortcut.


  The difficulty is that any JOSM customization (styles, plugins, 
preferences) becomes spread among multiple accounts and difficult to 
keep synchronized.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Cartinus

On 10/18/2012 09:44 PM, Christian Rogel wrote:
 By the way, could you stand receiving any message in a language you
 cannot understand. that seems to be looking for
 infuriating the non-English speaking users?


On 10/18/2012 10:30 PM, Eric Marsden wrote:
   - the way in which DWG is undertaking its monitoring+blocking, by
 sending aggressive messages to contributors in a language which they
 can be presumed not to understand

sarcasm on
So a requirement for the membership of the DWG should be that you are a
polyglot. Of course all messages about issues in country X should be
send in the official language and those of all known minority languages
of the country.
sarcasm off


I think it is more reasonable to assume that any contributor to a
multinational open project like openstreetmap knows how to use
http://translate.google.com or any other such service.

The continued use of the argument the message was not in French is
just silly. You don't have to like that the lingua franca of the
internet age is English, but if you want to be heard in projects like
OSM, you better accept it.


---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus


P.S. No, English is not my native language.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Christian Quest

2012/10/18 Eric Marsden eric.mars...@free.fr:
 fr == Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org writes:

   fr If I do that, would that change the attitude towards the separate
   fr account question, or would it be a a waste of time?

   Frederik, you are focussing on the technical ramifications of this
   rather narrow separate account issue, but in fact, as many of us
   have tried to explain multiple times, the real issues are more
   fundamental:

   - the legitimacy of the OSMF DWG concerning monitoring of imports (and
 blocking accounts on this basis) is unclear. The DWG mandate, as per
 its web page on OSMF's web site, does not include monitoring
 imports. I have seen no deliberation of the OSMF board giving DWG
 the right to block contributors (who are clearly neither sabotaging
 the data nor making foolish beginners' mistakes) on the basis of its
 interpretations of import guidelines (please look up the meaning of
 the word guidelines).

   - the process which led the DWG to decide that a separate account
 shall be necessary is absolutely opaque. A normal process for such
 as change would be to explain your motivations, request feedback
 from contributors (for instance via the talk mailing list), then
 document the motivations and consequences on the wiki. You have only
 documented this requirement, which seems pulled out of your hat.

   - the way in which DWG is undertaking its monitoring+blocking, by
 sending aggressive messages to contributors in a language which they
 can be presumed not to understand, seemed pretty autistic at first,
 and now seems arrogant and bigoted. Indeed, DWG members have continued
 in the same way despite repeated attempts to explain the negative
 impact that this is having on well-meaning contributors.

   - the way in which DWG has ignored proposals from French contributors
 to help act as intermediaries in this respect makes it look like you
 wish to avoid the constitution of well-structured local/national
 communities, when (in my opinion) this is a major challenge for the
 next years of Openstreetmap's growth.

   Note that none of these issues are specific to the French community,
   but concern OSMF governance, its values, its processes and its degree
   of respect for local communities and for contributors. I have seen no
   effort to address these issues, but rather significant avoidance of
   our numerous messages asking for answers. Please consider changing
   that.


Thank you Eric to bring governance back to its center place.

That was my original questions some times ago, but it has been turned
into a cadastre endless pros/cons talk which helped a lot not
answering those important questions. That was a month ago and most
questions are still the same because unanswered.

On Sept 18th (one month ago already)
Frederik wrote:
 DWG has also been looking for someone from France to join its ranks in order
 to better liaise with the French community in case of problems like this but
 we haven't had any applications.


and I answered: I confirm you have one application, mine.

I later confirmed my application (upon request) together with sly
almost two weeks ago (Oct. 5th)... without any answer so far.
Should I send it again ? Have you received it ?

-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquest

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Jérome Armau

Keep in mind that we're trying to make the openstreetmap project accessible
to a larger share of the population. In every single country, that means
appealing to a non-computer-geek crowd. For example, the usage of -Djosm.
home=dir is dark magic to most people. Even though it's acceptable to
most users of this list who are well used to the inner workings of their
computer system, it's just plain wrong to advise any non-power-user to do
this.

In non-English-speaking countries, that also means that the average
contributor:
- does not have a very good command of English (beyond the tagging
standards)
- does not know about services such as Google translate

I'm confident a significant portion of French, German, Italian and Spanish
contributors are in this case. These people are not represented on this
mailing list, but need to be taken into account in these decisions.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote:

 On 10/18/2012 09:44 PM, Christian Rogel wrote:
  By the way, could you stand receiving any message in a language you
  cannot understand. that seems to be looking for
  infuriating the non-English speaking users?


 On 10/18/2012 10:30 PM, Eric Marsden wrote:
- the way in which DWG is undertaking its monitoring+blocking, by
  sending aggressive messages to contributors in a language which they
  can be presumed not to understand

 sarcasm on
 So a requirement for the membership of the DWG should be that you are a
 polyglot. Of course all messages about issues in country X should be
 send in the official language and those of all known minority languages
 of the country.
 sarcasm off


 I think it is more reasonable to assume that any contributor to a
 multinational open project like openstreetmap knows how to use
 http://translate.google.com or any other such service.

 The continued use of the argument the message was not in French is
 just silly. You don't have to like that the lingua franca of the
 internet age is English, but if you want to be heard in projects like
 OSM, you better accept it.


 ---
 m.v.g.,
 Cartinus


 P.S. No, English is not my native language.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Toby Murray

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Jérome Armau jerar...@gmail.com wrote:
 Keep in mind that we're trying to make the openstreetmap project accessible
 to a larger share of the population. In every single country, that means
 appealing to a non-computer-geek crowd. For example, the usage of
 -Djosm.home=dir is dark magic to most people. Even though it's
 acceptable to most users of this list who are well used to the inner
 workings of their computer system, it's just plain wrong to advise any
 non-power-user to do this.

We are trying to make manual user contributions to OpenStreetMap as
accessible as possible. This is where our strength is. People mapping
their neighborhoods. Hour long mapping sessions with hundreds or maybe
a thousand changes on a weekend.

Data imports are not a strength of the OpenStreetMap data model and
infrastructure. So if someone wants to do a data import of the scale
that will get DWG's attention, then they should absolutely be required
to have intimate knowledge of the tools they plan on using, including
whatever obscure JOSM options are needed to get the job done right. If
they are not familiar with the tools then they WILL make mistakes and
potentially damage the map very heavily.

Also, a big +1 to Frederik's last email. It is very eloquent and
reflects my views on the subject quite accurately. Thank you for the
effort to write it.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Cartinus



On 10/18/2012 11:34 PM, Jérome Armau wrote:
 Keep in mind that we're trying to make the openstreetmap project accessible
 to a larger share of the population. In every single country, that means
 appealing to a non-computer-geek crowd. For example, the usage of -Djosm.
 home=dir is dark magic to most people. Even though it's acceptable to
 most users of this list who are well used to the inner workings of their
 computer system, it's just plain wrong to advise any non-power-user to do
 this.
 
 In non-English-speaking countries, that also means that the average
 contributor:
 - does not have a very good command of English (beyond the tagging
 standards)
 - does not know about services such as Google translate
 
 I'm confident a significant portion of French, German, Italian and Spanish
 contributors are in this case. These people are not represented on this
 mailing list, but need to be taken into account in these decisions.

As Frederik just wrote: Those messages were not send to people
importing 100 buildings in their neighbourhood at a time, but to people
importing thousands of buildings in a short time. If they weren't the
DWG wouldn't have noticed them.

People who are importing thousands of buildings, better be computer
literate. Being computer literate and French speaking, means you are
capable of typing traduire en français into a search engine.

-- 
---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Jo

2012/10/18 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org

 Hi,


 On 10/18/12 14:41, Pieren wrote:

 It's more than 5 minutes if you have to create first a new email
 account (I know now all the tricks to duplicate our first email
 account but then explain why a different email address is still
 required) then spend time to continuously switch from one account to
 the other.


 Both of these are technical issues that could be solved, and I'm prepared
 to help solve them - at least on the JOSM side, it would be easy to make it
 so that JOSM can store multiple identities and when you hit upload you
 can select which identity to use from a drop-down, and as for the
 many-accounts-one-email question, I'm sure that could be solved somehow as
 well.

 If I do that, would that change the attitude towards the separate
 account question, or would it be a a waste of time?


It wouldn't be a waste of time if you can implement it in such a way that
all the buildings are uploaded as the bot user and all the rest of the work
as the normal user automagically. The main concern with the separate
accounts is that the result of the work is integrated and that people will
most likely either forget to switch accounts or not stop right after the
import part and before the integration part of the work, as this runs
together and  becomes mixed and entangled.

Polyglot
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Apollinaire

Cartinus wrote
I think it is more reasonable to assume that any contributor to a
multinational open project like openstreetmap knows how to use
lt;http://translate.google.comgt; or any other such service.

The continued use of the argument the message was not in French is
just silly. You don't have to like that the lingua franca of the
internet age is English, but if you want to be heard in projects like
OSM, you better accept it.

Contributors and DWG are not the same, they have not to have the same
skills.
In my early mistakes on OSM, a French contributor kindly pointed out my
mistakes and helped me fix them. A member of the DWG could he do the same?
I imagine that the members of the DWG have huge responsibilities and a lot
to do.. is it not too boring for them to dwell on problems that others could
solve.
Good leaders are those who can hand over power

Now, I let you play with your favorite tool : translate.google.com

Bonjour,

Je suis cette affaire d'un peu loin depuis le début, mais avec assez
d'intérêt pour aller jeter un coup d’œil sur le talk « General Discussion »
de temps en temps. Lorsque j'ai vu certains ramener leurs fraises pour dire
« la règle c'est la règle » alors qu'ils n'y connaissaient manifestement pas
beaucoup plus que moi, quitte à avoir l'avis de néophytes, j'ai failli
apporter mon témoignage.
Ce qui me frappe c'est l'analogie avec le jacobinisme : c'est sans doute
dans un effort louable que le DWG, comme les jacobins, tente d'imposer les
mêmes règles à tous les contributeurs, quels que soient leurs réalités
géographiques, culturelles, ainsi que les sources dont ils disposent. Il
suffit de mapper à l'étranger de temps en temps pour voir qu'au-delà de
l'apparente uniformisation bienvenue et souhaitée par tous, les différents
pays et continents ont déjà développé des stratégies très différentes pour
mapper au mieux.
À présent dans un souci que je veux croire honorable, d'égalité, le DWG se
fourvoie dans une posture centralisatrice à l'excès, technocrate qui
continue d'ignorer les réalités locales, et pire que tout qui refuse de
d'avoir l'honnêteté de dire « on s'est plantés ».
De tous les arguments avancés par les aficionados du DWG, un seul aurait pu
me convaincre : l'import du bâti découragerait les nouveaux venus de
contribuer. Les chiffres prouvent le contraire.
À présent il faudra négocier une sortie honorable pour les deux parties,
sans que le DWG se sente humilié. Je pense malgré tout que la petite
concession du patch JOSM est largement insuffisante et que si la situation
ne se débloque pas, la confrontation franche et ouverte peut être plus
efficace que des solutions mitoyennes comme un patch JOSM. Dans cette
confrontation, je soutiens comme je pense, la majorité des inscrits,
silencieux ou non, de cette liste, ceux qui ont pris le temps d'exposer les
arguments de la communauté française.
À terme, l'issue de ce conflit sur le pouvoir du DWG concernera bien plus
que la communauté française, et si nous donnons l'image « d'irréductibles
français » un peu chieurs, tant mieux : l'enjeu dépasse OSM-FR. Je préfère
cette attitude à celle d’ânonner « la règle c'est la règle » le doigt sur la
couture. Nous n'avons ni les mêmes géographies, ni les mêmes cultures, et
c'est tant mieux.

Gaëtan

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Jérome Armau

I think your approach based solely on the dataset size has limits. A
typical French village with a few hundred inhabitants will include
somewhere around 15,000 nodes and 500 building-tagged ways (that's a
village I know with 200 inhabitants). Now, integrating such amounts of data
doesn't mean that the work was a massive, automated import. Typically,
users will at least:
- check that the new layer is properly aligned with the survey points
around (doesn't show up in the changeset)
- manually integrate highways, place names, landmarks from the Cadastre
vector (adds a few dozen nodes and ways)
- check for typical geometry errors using the JOSM validator (doesn't show
up in the changeset)
- remove from the import all buildings that are already in the database
(removes a dozen ways at most)

All points and ways are not manually checked, simply because in the vast
majority of cases, the quality of the cadastre data is high (which is also
the reason why the number of nodes is high).

Are you saying that because this manual integration work has little impact
on the changeset size, this is a massive automated import? Remember that
for the vast majority of communes out there, we're talking about a few
hundred buildings or less.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Christian,

I think you are mixing up things here.

 There is a general requirement for a dedicated import account, and you
 write yourself that you think that it is good to use a dedicated import in
 some cases.

 While this requirement is in theory a general requirement, DWG has never
 enforced that and was not planning to enforce it for minor imports of the
 type you mention (reworked manually, objects integrated one by one...).

 Such imports will generally result in small changesets, small mapper
 productivity (nobody can rework manually and integrate thousands of
 objects per day), and look much more like traditional mapping than like an
 import.

 Your argument goes like this:

 The rule does not make sense for small, hand-made imports, therefore it
 does not apply to people uploading 1 cadastre buildings at once either.

 But there is a difference between small, hand-made imports and the kind of
 mass-import that many people commit when they import cadastre data.

 I believe that it would be possible to import cadastre data in the
 hand-made style, and maybe that was indeed originally the intention;
 perhaps some people are actually importing their neighbourhood from
 cadastre data and we don't even notice because they *really* verify
 everything manually and therefore their edits look much more like manual
 edits.

 I'm happy to accept that such edits are more using a variety of legal
 third-party material in the mapping process than they are importing
 third-party data, and I will certainly not request that someone creates a
 separate account for taking 100 buildings from their government GIS, fixing
 them up in JOSM, and uploading them.

 The same if someone uploads a couple of hand-verified schools in their
 area, or a couple SNCF crossings, or something.

 However, as soon as someone sets out to say not

 I will map my parent's village, let me check out the available sources
 and use them for help

 but

 I will take this SNCF dataset and import all level crossings in Alsace

 then they are doing an import - even if they are perhaps occasionally
 aligning something by hand.

 Until now, DWG has only ever enforced the separate-account rule when
 people were clearly contributing much more data than could possibly be
 manually reviewed.

 In a recent message, to talk-it (http://lists.openstreetmap.**
 org/pipermail/talk-it/2012-**September/030778.htmlhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2012-September/030778.html),
 Paul writes

 We recognize that the line between an import and assisted mapping is not
 currently clearly defined; however all the cases I have seen recently
 clearly were on the import side of that line.

 So he calls it assisted mapping, I called it using a variety of legal
 third-party material in the mapping process, we could also call it a
 manually verified, small-scale import.

 These things are ok and while it is not currently written, DWG does not
 enforce separate accounts for them. If that is any help, we can try to sit
 down together and try to clarify the line between assisted mapping and
 import.

 There are many reasons why we want mass imports clearly separated from
 normal, human-contributed data. We got burnt by this in the license change
 in Poland, where we had to spend massive amounts of time sorting between
 good and bad changesets contributed by the same account. We have
 situations in which it is unclear whether data in OSM is from an import or
 from, say, manual imagery tracing by the user or so; if there are doubts
 about that data quality, we will not hesitate to wholesale delete something
 that was imported (because we know that the script can be

Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread andrzej zaborowski

On 18 October 2012 23:05, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 In a recent message, to talk-it
 (http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2012-September/030778.html),
 Paul writes

 We recognize that the line between an import and assisted mapping is not
 currently clearly defined; however all the cases I have seen recently
 clearly were on the import side of that line.

 So he calls it assisted mapping, I called it using a variety of legal
 third-party material in the mapping process, we could also call it a
 manually verified, small-scale import.

 These things are ok and while it is not currently written, DWG does not
 enforce separate accounts for them. If that is any help, we can try to sit
 down together and try to clarify the line between assisted mapping and
 import.

 There are many reasons why we want mass imports clearly separated from
 normal, human-contributed data. We got burnt by this in the license change
 in Poland, where we had to spend massive amounts of time sorting between
 good and bad changesets contributed by the same account.

This is off topic in this thread, but I'd like to set the record
straight.  Who do you refer to as we when you say you had to spend
any time sorting those changes?  The LWG and the rest of the
contributors to the license change have done nothing at all to
understand what data in Poland was compatible with the new license and
which of it wasn't.  You might have noticed (or not) that pretty much
every sentence in LWG minutes referring to this data has a factual
error of some sort, especially the ones quoting any numbers.  Really.
This was on such a scale that the day before the redaction started
(Tuseday morning) I was asking people on #osm-dev including LWG
members and the bot operator, if any of the decisions made by LWG to
that time had in fact been taken into account.  What I learnt was that
the final rules to be applied by the bot were such that over 50% of
the data to be redacted by the bot in Poland was in fact compatible
with ODbL, while at the same over 50% of the data incompatible with
ODbL would be left in the database.  Completely nothing had been done
to that time.

(And even then there was not much will to do anything right.  I was
told that if I wanted to provide drop-in code to fix the basic
problems, then I had about 12 hours to do so -- that was another
statement that made Michael's Collins' reasonable effort and due
diligence simply laughable.  On that same day, the operator of the
bot had literally said that it was not his task to read LWG's meeting
minutes and implement those plans.  A week later when it turned out
that a human mistake caused too many objects to be redacted (mind you
those objects have not been unredacted to this day -- a joke on the
automated edits guideline where you're supposed to have the tools to
undo anything you do), another community member had come to #osm-dev
to ask about this and was quoted an hourly rate for programming work
by one of the OSMF board members for repairing the destruction done to
that contributor's work)

So I'll appreciate it if you can avoid saying that you'd spent time
sorting through any changesets (or have you and that work was simply
not used?).  I had agreed to provide the whitelists and blacklists
needed for the bot to approximate what would be a license-based
redaction because I felt responsible to both the Polish OSM community
and the authors of the CC-By-SA data to be removed, for what the OSM
project does with those people's contributions.  I had quit the OSMF
to avoid the responsibility for their movements.  But at that time I
had already spend *weeks* of programming work trying to help the OSMF
destroy less by writing the equivalent of the redaction bot to go
through UMP edits history.  And because of that decision I have even
spent a couple hours this last weekend helping the OSMF do *more*
destruction to free geographic data in the OSM database, instead of
doing something productive.

Now coming back to the question of dedicated import accounts, I don't
see they make a lot of difference.  They're not a huge burden to the
importer, but they neither do solve any problem that the source
tagging doesn't solve better already.  If you want to redact the OSM
database ignoring basic facts and information that has been provided
to you clearly and repeatedly by different people then not much is
going to help you.  Still the UMP imports usually have required days
to weeks of manual work before each changeset uploaded because of the
data model differences and I think you could easily put them in the
assisted import category.  Which would mean that there's more manual
work in them than 3-rd party and using either a separate account, or
entire-changeset tagging, would cause more false negatives than not.
You could do that work in smaller changesets but you'd lose the
atomicity or bisectability in git speak, where you'd have a map
state in between the beginning of the work and the

Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


On 18.10.2012 15:02, THEVENON Julien wrote:

it means that we cannot distribute raw data coming from Cadastre alone.
We are allowed to distribute them only if they are part of composite 
dataset/work ( = mixed with data coming from other sources ) and only 
if we add to them the information that they are coming from cadastre 
and the year of cadastre ( = our tag source= Cadastres 2012 )
So the integration in OSM with the source tag by French contributor 
made them part of a composite dataset with cadastre attribution so 
this is fine.

Hmmm...  That sounds very problematic to me.   :-(

Just doing a thought experiment:
* Cadastre data are imported including this source tag
* somebody removes (or overwrites) for what reason ever the source tag 
at last of some buildings (none in the french community can guarantee 
that this doesn't happen)
* no one can expect that every lonesome mapper knows about the special 
requirement for this special source tag and leaves it attached

* a normal planet is generated (not a flll history planet) and distributed,
* nobody using the planet in aware about this special cadastre-situation 
using the houses as no information is present inside.
* the situation gets even worser is for what reason ever the houses with 
removed source tag are seperated out of DB and distributed as planet 
extract as a new DB just under ODBL.


_For me:_ the planet from above is illegal because some illegal data are 
included. This could cause a lot of problems to the OSMF. Who in the 
french community is willing to cover the risk?

BTW: this new DB is even more illegal.   :-(



Just my 2 cents,
Michael.

PS: and you (= the french community) are not even willing to use 
seperate accounts for such an hazardous import...:-(


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


On 18.10.2012 14:19, Frederik Ramm wrote:
In the end, we have no choice but to block them; if, even though we 
tried, someone doesn't want to play by the rules then he can't play at 
all.
Just because you are not convinced that a certain rule is good, 
doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you.

I just can second Frederik!
For me the whole discussion mainly sound like the French community 
against the rest of the world. I don't understand why the French 
community is not willing to accept the sperate account rule for 
imports: IMHO no one else worldwide is arguing against it than the 
french community. But IMHO it is not acceptable at all that one 
community is going it's complete way in basic issues: we are all one/the 
same project working with the same data under the same licence which 
leads to one  joined planet! There for seperate ways are not acceptable 
and cause problems for the rest of the world.

My conclusion: seperate ways are not accpetable at all on basic issues.


Best regards,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)


Am 19.10.2012 00:02, schrieb Apollinaire:

Now, I let you play with your favorite tool : translate.google.com
Bonjour,

[...]

Gaëtan
auch wenn die Gramatik nach FR = DE dort sehr schlecht ist: it is 
readable to just fly over it understanding sufficient content and 
quicker to read it it in French.



À bientôt,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

2012-10-18 Thread Jérome Armau

And that's exactly why we're all here, discussing the issue. So that we can
come up with answers regarding:
1) What the exact role of the DWG is
2) How the DWG should go about interacting with the various communities and
individual contributors across the globe
3) Whether and how community-established guidelines can interact with
global rules

Upon request from the DWG, two French community members have applied to
join the ranks of the DWG in order to improve the communication. Would it
be possible to get an update on these applications?

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Michael Kugelmann michaelk_...@gmx.dewrote:

On 18.10.2012 14:19, Frederik Ramm wrote:

In the end, we have no choice but to block them; if, even though we
tried, someone doesn't want to play by the rules then he can't play at all.
Just because you are not convinced that a certain rule is good, doesn't
mean it doesn't apply to you.

I just can second Frederik!
For me the whole discussion mainly sound like the French community
against the rest of the world. I don't understand why the French community
is not willing to accept the sperate account rule for imports: IMHO no
one else worldwide is arguing against it than the french community. But
IMHO it is not acceptable at all that one community is going it's complete
way in basic issues: we are all one/the same project working with the same
data under the same licence which leads to one joined planet! There for
seperate ways are not acceptable and cause problems for the rest of the
world.
My conclusion: seperate ways are not accpetable at all on basic issues.

Best regards,
Michael.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)