Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Marc Gemis]

Lester wrote:
> Nominatim produces something of a overloaded location string

That's the case outside the UK as. Look up any address in Flanders and
you get Flanders somewhere in the address stack. This admin level is
never used on letters nor in navigation, only for administrative
purposes.
As I said before, the output of Nominatim is not meant to be put on a
letter. It just shows the complete "admin"/location stack known in
OSM.

The full information that Nominatim knows for "WR12 7EP, United
Kingdom" is shown on :
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=180306705
It does list a collection of streets. What you see on osm.org is just
a small set, which does not include the list of streets. The number of
streets in a postal code really depends on the country, it might be a
small number in the UK, but is large in e.g. Germany.

Of course there are other geocoders that are (partially) based on OSM.
Feel free to use one that suits your needs better.

I was just trying to explain how Nominatim works. If it does not work
for the UK, you have to build or use another geocoder if you make a
website for OSM-UK, as Nominatim fails to fulfil your needs.

m.

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Lester Caine  wrote:
> On 19/10/17 12:37, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> Then at least people know that they should not check with Nominatim.
>>
>> AFAIK, Nominatim does not try to generate an address you can put an a
>> letter.  It tries to show the address as part of the administrative
>> hierarchy defined by the other objects in OSM. Some of those
>> administrative levels are not used for letters or navigation where I
>> live.
>
> Nominatim produces something of a overloaded location string
>
> Residential Road Smallbrook Road, Broadway, Wychavon, Worcestershire,
> West Midlands, England, WR12 7EP, United Kingdom
>
> but then fails to return the street if you do a postcode lookup.
>
> Postcode Broadway, WR12 7EP, United Kingdom
>
> But the main point here is that there are a large number of other useful
> boundaries that can be identified via postcodes. It would be nice though
> if we could simply use the NLPG reference for every property since it
> SHOULD be a freely available database that council tax payers have
> financed and councils are required to keep up to date. But it's a
> chargeable resource to use :(
>
> --
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> -
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Adam Snape]

"Are you saying that anything with a postcode beginning with SW should be
tagged addr:city=London and anything beginning with TW9 or TW10 should be
tagged addr:city=Richmond?"

I'm not saying others *should*, I am just saying how I *do *map. If others
want to document how they map I'm happy to how I tag for the sake of
consistency.
If we accept (which I thought we had) that addr: tags are for postal
addresses rather than general geographic location then, yes, SW has London
in its postal address and TW9 doesn't. It is not ideal to use 'city' to
mean 'post town' but city is the most widely used tag for this purpose.

Adam
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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Activity Updates

[Rob Nickerson]

Great news.

Can I enquire about two things: First did you use the iD walkthrough and if
yes, how was it? Did it provide a full introduction or did you need to help
with extra support too?

And second, what sort of oddities did you get on the TfWM bus route
plotting software? And how were they typically solved?

Thanks,

*Rob*

On 19 October 2017 at 16:43, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> 1. I'm back training Probation Pay Back Attendees with Anawim. I've
> currently assigned our first new trainee the SE corner of Nuneaton to add
> buildings and improve road alignments. Latest version of id is much
> improved!
> 2. I now have a direct link into TfWM's maintainer of NaPTAN bus stops and
> we're working on a process for regular updates. I'll keep you uppdated as
> to progress
> 3. TfWM now plot their bus routes using a piece of software that uses OSM
> data.It sometimes produces weird results that need some unentangling f the
> OSM data, so we had good fun this week solving some of them
>
> Regards
>
> Brian
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On 19 October 2017 at 13:38, Ed Loach  wrote:
>> For anyone else reading, we're talking about
>> http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postcodes/stats/
>
> When I drilled down a bit I found an NG column with a * in it, e.g.
> http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postcodes/stats/CO/CO13/
>
> In this instance I think the 4 CO13 3 codes are PO Boxes but fall just below 
> your threshold of 5 but am wondering if NG is non-geographic?

Yes, "NG" is non-geographic. Royal Mail publish a list of
non-geographic sectors every six months, which I've parsed and
imported into my tool. I've now added a note under the table to
explain this.

You would have been right about the 5 threshold, but actually there
are other units in different sectors that are located at the same
delivery office, which would have pushed it over. The problem was
actually a bug in my code, that meant that sectors with no units under
the threshold didn't get reported properly. That should now be fixed.
(Although I should probably look to make it automatically discount all
postcodes in sectors flagged as Non-Geographic, rather than using the
threshold for them -- but that will need a bit more SQL magic to
achieve.)

Robert.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Andrew Hain]

Are you saying that anything with a postcode beginning with SW should be tagged 
addr:city=London and anything beginning with TW9 or TW10 should be tagged 
addr:city=Richmond?

--
Andrew

From: Adam Snape 
Sent: 19 October 2017 09:35:40
To: Steve Doerr
Cc: Talk GB
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

I'm convinced that many such addresses are unnecessarily long (are there really 
multiple Weldons in the Swanscome postal area?). Nevertheless we should have a 
way of mapping them if they are the official address. I agree that more general 
guidance would aid consistency. My address mapping practice is as follows. I 
would welcome correction if others feel I am doing something incorrectly::


  *   The post town 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom is 
tagged as addr:city (whether or not it is a city or indeed whether an otherwise 
more important place is nearer). Though this should all be in upper case when 
used I add the tag in lower case with an initial capital letter as it would 
normally be written in a sentence.

  *   For sub divisions of this area the wiki has documented tags addr:suburb 
and addr:hamlet. I tend to default to suburb everywhere except when dealing 
with an actual isolated hamlet. Where there are two subdivisions as in Steve's 
example, I'd use hamlet for the smaller one  and suburb for the larger one.

  *   The wiki suggests to avoid addr:street and addr:place together but I use 
them for things like named retail/business parks where there is also a street 
address eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/527520264

  *   I do not tag the name of the property separately if it is the same as the 
main name=* tag

  *   Counties have not been formally part of postal addresses for many years. 
Royal Mail permits people to optionally add the name of the old Postal County, 
modern administrative or ceremonial county, or traditional county to their 
address according to their personal preference, but this plays no role in 
delivery. So I do not tag a county in the address.

So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot Lane, 
addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley, addr:city=Swanscombe, 
addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ

I hope that helps

Adam


On 18 Oct 2017 11:49 p.m., "Steve Doerr" 
> wrote:
On 10/10/2017 19:07, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here yet, but this quarter's UK
mapping project is to improve addresses and postcodes:
https://osmuk.org/uncategorized/jump-in-to-our-quarterly-mapping-project/



It would be useful to have some guidance on tagging for UK addresses. For 
instance, how would you tag the different elements of the following address for 
a pub/carvery that opened recently near me:

The Spring River
Talbot Lane
Weldon
Ebbsfleet Valley
SWANSCOMBE
DA10 1AZ

Regards,
Steve


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[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Birmingham City Council

[Brian Prangle]

Hi everyone

BCC now using OSM for public announcements

!
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[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Activity Updates

[Brian Prangle]

Hi everyone

1. I'm back training Probation Pay Back Attendees with Anawim. I've
currently assigned our first new trainee the SE corner of Nuneaton to add
buildings and improve road alignments. Latest version of id is much
improved!
2. I now have a direct link into TfWM's maintainer of NaPTAN bus stops and
we're working on a process for regular updates. I'll keep you uppdated as
to progress
3. TfWM now plot their bus routes using a piece of software that uses OSM
data.It sometimes produces weird results that need some unentangling f the
OSM data, so we had good fun this week solving some of them

Regards

Brian
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Lester Caine]

On 19/10/17 15:37, Colin Smale wrote:
> Which boundaries are your referring to, which have yet to be mapped?
> There are big holes in Civil Parish + Community mapping in the north of
> England/Wales/Scotland, but most of England is OK. AFAIK all other admin
> boundaries are in there.
Parish boundaries are the one that normally catch me out ...
And often it's difficult to sort ward boundaries from one another.

> "Place" boundaries are a whole other can of worms, because they have no
> defined boundaries in most cases and most of the UK will be in the ether
> between places. They will usually differ from Royal Mail´s perspective
> anyway.
Hospital grounds and university campus boundaries are another area that
are improving, along with industrial estates, but one I look after does
not fair well with Nominatim as its WR11 post codes inside Gloucestershire.

> If the use case is to get decent results out of nominatim, we need to
> have a discussion about how best to approach that. I think we will not
> get there with OSM data alone - changes to nominatim's logic will be
> required. But it all depends on your expectations I suppose.

'Places' like Wychavon being used for directions are simply wrong, and
more of a problem often is finding places on OSMAND that are currently
not showing up properly. I had a run up to Haydock .. Wedge Avenue ...
but it does not appear. Adding postcodes around there will probably
help, but having selected 'Haydock' one would expect all the roads to be
listed? Not sure how OSMAND is holding data, but a search on
http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=Wedge%20Avenue%20Haydock#map=13/53.4778/-2.4421=H
fails ... this is not really even a 'post' problem, just finding directions.

> On 2017-10-19 16:27, Lester Caine wrote:
> 
>> On 19/10/17 14:31, Dave F wrote:
>>> On 19/10/2017 12:04, Lester Caine wrote:
 On 19/10/17 11:35, Adam Snape wrote:
> Doesn't its location within the UK make an explicit UK tag unnecessary?
 But when reading a single object tags do you know just where it is? Some
 other mechanism has to return the 'inside boundary' data which takes
 processing power.
>>>
>>> OSM is geospatially aware. Nominatim have stated that it's not intensive
>>> processing & prefer it over is_in*. If unwilling to use 'inside
>>> boundary' coding it requires *every* object to have multiple location
>>> tags for *every* search boundary. Expecting mappers to add this enormous
>>> amount of data is selfish.
>>
>> The reverse of that is that there are a large number of boundaries that
>> have yet to be mapped and in some instances may be difficult to map at
>> all. I'm not suggesting that mappers add any more tags than useful and
>> easy to add. What I AM suggesting is that 'Expecting mappers to add this
>> enormous amount of data is ...' unnecessary when some key tags will
>> cross reference the rest of the data! And where linked data changes then
>> one does not have to address every object, just the top record.
>>
>> Yes automation can manage and change multiple records in parallel and
>> fill multiple tags from the one entry, but does all that information
>> have to be stored raw in OSM WHEN the processing can just as easily
>> provide it?

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Colin Smale]

A lookup on DA10 1AZ gives the following results: 

Marstons Inn (for example)
Talbot Lane
Weldon
Ebbsfleet Valley
SWANSCOMBE
DA10 1AZ

So it has a building name, a street name (Talbot Lane), a locality
(Ebbsfleet Valley), a sublocality (Weldon) and a post town (Swanscombe).
It that really necessary? No, of course not; and I cannot imagine why
they added so many layers to these addresses when I would expect they
would be trying to keep things simple. 

On 2017-10-19 16:34, Lester Caine wrote:

> On 19/10/17 15:30, Colin Smale wrote: 
> 
>> It appears they don't even know/understand their own address... The post
>> town is not Ebbsfleet but Swanscombe.
> 
> Not according to Royal Mail ;) But then that is no proof either, except
> that is where post will be delivered by them.___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Colin Smale]

Which boundaries are your referring to, which have yet to be mapped?
There are big holes in Civil Parish + Community mapping in the north of
England/Wales/Scotland, but most of England is OK. AFAIK all other admin
boundaries are in there. 

"Place" boundaries are a whole other can of worms, because they have no
defined boundaries in most cases and most of the UK will be in the ether
between places. They will usually differ from Royal Mail´s perspective
anyway.

If the use case is to get decent results out of nominatim, we need to
have a discussion about how best to approach that. I think we will not
get there with OSM data alone - changes to nominatim's logic will be
required. But it all depends on your expectations I suppose. 

--colin 

On 2017-10-19 16:27, Lester Caine wrote:

> On 19/10/17 14:31, Dave F wrote: On 19/10/2017 12:04, Lester Caine wrote: On 
> 19/10/17 11:35, Adam Snape wrote: Doesn't its location within the UK make an 
> explicit UK tag unnecessary? But when reading a single object tags do you 
> know just where it is? Some
> other mechanism has to return the 'inside boundary' data which takes
> processing power.

OSM is geospatially aware. Nominatim have stated that it's not intensive
processing & prefer it over is_in*. If unwilling to use 'inside
boundary' coding it requires *every* object to have multiple location
tags for *every* search boundary. Expecting mappers to add this enormous
amount of data is selfish. 
The reverse of that is that there are a large number of boundaries that
have yet to be mapped and in some instances may be difficult to map at
all. I'm not suggesting that mappers add any more tags than useful and
easy to add. What I AM suggesting is that 'Expecting mappers to add this
enormous amount of data is ...' unnecessary when some key tags will
cross reference the rest of the data! And where linked data changes then
one does not have to address every object, just the top record.

Yes automation can manage and change multiple records in parallel and
fill multiple tags from the one entry, but does all that information
have to be stored raw in OSM WHEN the processing can just as easily
provide it?___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Lester Caine]

On 19/10/17 15:30, Colin Smale wrote:
> It appears they don't even know/understand their own address... The post
> town is not Ebbsfleet but Swanscombe.

Not according to Royal Mail ;) But then that is no proof either, except
that is where post will be delivered by them.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Lester Caine]

On 19/10/17 14:31, Dave F wrote:
> On 19/10/2017 12:04, Lester Caine wrote:
>> On 19/10/17 11:35, Adam Snape wrote:
>>> Doesn't its location within the UK make an explicit UK tag unnecessary?
>> But when reading a single object tags do you know just where it is? Some
>> other mechanism has to return the 'inside boundary' data which takes
>> processing power.
> 
> OSM is geospatially aware. Nominatim have stated that it's not intensive
> processing & prefer it over is_in*. If unwilling to use 'inside
> boundary' coding it requires *every* object to have multiple location
> tags for *every* search boundary. Expecting mappers to add this enormous
> amount of data is selfish.

The reverse of that is that there are a large number of boundaries that
have yet to be mapped and in some instances may be difficult to map at
all. I'm not suggesting that mappers add any more tags than useful and
easy to add. What I AM suggesting is that 'Expecting mappers to add this
enormous amount of data is ...' unnecessary when some key tags will
cross reference the rest of the data! And where linked data changes then
one does not have to address every object, just the top record.

Yes automation can manage and change multiple records in parallel and
fill multiple tags from the one entry, but does all that information
have to be stored raw in OSM WHEN the processing can just as easily
provide it?

-- 
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-
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Steve Doerr]

On 19/10/2017 12:42, Dave F wrote:


Where did you get that address? Their website shows it as:

Spring River,
Talbot Lane,
Ebbsfleet,
DA10 1AZ


I got the address from a till receipt the first time I ate there, and 
also checked the Royal Mail site.



Which bit is Talbot Lane; it's not tagged.


I haven't found it yet, as it doesn't appear to be signed on the ground. 
Also, the road layout in OSM is based on aerial imagery and is out of date.


Steve

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Dave F]

On 19/10/2017 12:04, Lester Caine wrote:

On 19/10/17 11:35, Adam Snape wrote:

Doesn't its location within the UK make an explicit UK tag unnecessary?

But when reading a single object tags do you know just where it is? Some
other mechanism has to return the 'inside boundary' data which takes
processing power.



OSM is geospatially aware. Nominatim have stated that it's not intensive 
processing & prefer it over is_in*. If unwilling to use 'inside 
boundary' coding it requires *every* object to have multiple location 
tags for *every* search boundary. Expecting mappers to add this enormous 
amount of data is selfish.


DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Colin Smale]

Points - as in delivery points (letterboxes). If you try to analyse the
postcodes into areas, you will find all kinds of exclaves and enclaves.
To go from a postcode+house number to lat/long, you need to do a lookup
in the PAF. If you only have a partial code, you can get an
approximation You cannot go from an arbitrary lat/lon to "the postcode",
without first mapping the location to a "building" that has one or more
postcodes. 

I am 99% sure that CodePoint Polygon is not normative - it is just a
bunch of Voronoi polygons arranged around the points. If a new delivery
point is created (a new building for example) it will not tell you
(definitively) what the postcode will be. Many non-residential
buildings, particularly in rural areas (farm outbuildings for example),
are not "addressable" with a postcode/number (or name). Just because
they happen to fall into a certain polygon, it does not imply that the
postcode (if one were ever needed) would be X. 

The value that Royal Mail recognise in the PAF is the ability to go from
a postcode to a location for the purposes of delivery planning - both
their own, and of third parties, plus that it can form the basis of a
complete list of all "addressable" units in the country. 

I am pretty sure as well that route planners work by first translating
the postcode to lat/lon, then routing to the nearest point to there -
i.e. they don't actually have the postcode for every individual
household/company etc. 

Deriving your own polygons from the points has been tried before: 

https://longair.net/blog/2017/07/10/approximate-postcode-boundaries/ 

https://blog.geolytix.net/2012/11/20/postal-sector-boundaries-by-geolytix/


--colin 

On 2017-10-19 14:00, Steven Horner wrote:

>> Postcodes refer to points, not to polygons.
> 
> Are you saying a point in OpenStreetMap terms?
> 
> UK postcodes generally cover an area/polygon. How big that area is appears to 
> come down to how much mail that area is likely to receive, I think that's how 
> its described on Wikipedia. So it could cover one building, a street or a 
> huge area if rural.
> 
> Ordnance Survey sell CodePoint Polygons which is the polygons each postcode 
> covers. Obviously we can't use that. 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
> In the UK, this algorithm is useless if you expect to get the actual address 
> that you could send a letter to, or that you could ask for directions to.
> 
> On 2017-10-19 13:23, Marc Gemis wrote: 
> Maybe it is interesting to repeat how Nominatim resolves addresses,
> just in case someone wants to do a search after adding an address.
> 
> - Nominatim starts from an address point (or building way with
> address). It takes the house number from it and the street name.
> - It tries to match the street name with a nearby street.
> - The rest of the info, suburb, city, country, etc are taken from the
> way. i.e. it looks in which boundary the way lies and work its way up
> the admin levels.
> - In case there is no boundary, it can use a place node as well to
> determine the name of a certain admin level, but that is less precise
> 
> - postal codes are taken from the address point, when specified. This
> is needed in UK/USA but not in e.g. Belgium or Germany.
> 
> http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org [1] is your friend to understand where
> the data is coming from.
> 
> Of course, if you only work with a relational database (as Lester
> pointed out), one prefers all data on the address node.
> Relational DB with GIS extensions do not need this (e.g. Nominatim).
> 
> Nominatim's approach currently has problems with streets on the border
> of e.g. 2 villages. Sara Hoffmann (Lonvia) told me that there are some
> plans to fix this.
> 
> regards
> 
> m.
> 
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Adam Snape  wrote: 
> I'm convinced that many such addresses are unnecessarily long (are there
> really multiple Weldons in the Swanscome postal area?). Nevertheless we
> should have a way of mapping them if they are the official address. I agree
> that more general guidance would aid consistency. My address mapping
> practice is as follows. I would welcome correction if others feel I am doing
> something incorrectly::
> 
> The post town
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom [2] is
> tagged as addr:city (whether or not it is a city or indeed whether an
> otherwise more important place is nearer). Though this should all be in
> upper case when used I add the tag in lower case with an initial capital
> letter as it would normally be written in a sentence.
> 
> For sub divisions of this area the wiki has documented tags addr:suburb and
> addr:hamlet. I tend to default to suburb everywhere except when dealing with
> an actual isolated hamlet. Where there are two subdivisions as in Steve's
> example, I'd use hamlet for the smaller one  and suburb for the larger one.
> 
> The wiki suggests to avoid addr:street 

Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Adam Snape]

Hi,
Yes, I was talking about in OSM, so was reluctant to go looking up the RM
version. When I used to sell stuff I did check with the RM website before
sending stuff out.  In my local area I know which postcodes are for which
post town so I can correct without referring to the RM.
For delivery, yes, only the postcode and house number are strictly needed
(with a few exceptions where there is both a main and subsidiary street).
The remainder is basically a backup. I don't really see that that ought to
prevent us mapping full address data in OSM.
Adam

On 19 October 2017 at 13:32, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 19/10/17 13:15, Adam Snape wrote:
> > But Ebbsfleet is not a Post Town. The address will include Swanscombe. I
> > should have said before that my experience (as an eBay seller) is lots
> > of  people are unaware of their correct postal address. Each postcode
> > section eg. DA1, DA2, DA3... will have a particular post town, so I
> > correct this which I know to be wrong for the postcode. Because several
> > of the editors don't include a box for suburb or hamlet it is aslo
> > common to see names of villages or suburbs in the tagged as addr:city.
>
> From a postal point of view, the result of a lookup on the Royal Mail
> website is the best way of checking a postcode and the return from DA10
> 1AZ is longer than some results and is what Steve listed originally. If
> we can actually use that view of the data is a little grey, but one can
> at least check where one is shipping something is correct. I'm sure
> manually top level sorting post, the post person will be looking at the
> postal town rather than the postcode, but on automated machines then
> only the name and postcode are relevant.
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Adam Snape]

Haha, fair enough, it must depend where you live and the purposes for
needing an address. I apologise for the digression.

On 19 October 2017 at 14:02, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 19/10/2017 13:15, Adam Snape wrote:
>
>> To my mind Nominatim should use postal addresses where tagged in OSM
>> rather than trying to interpolate a address from admin boundaries. As a
>> backup it is better than nothing but it prodcues some bizarre results.
>> Somebody might live in Blackburn or Darwen, but they don't live in
>> Blackburn with Darwen
>>
>
> I'd much rather that Nominatim tried to guess where I actually live rather
> than the "legal fictions" that the Post Office (or whoever they've been
> sold to now) seem to rely on.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Tom Hughes]

On 19/10/17 13:00, Steven Horner wrote:

UK postcodes generally cover an area/polygon. How big that area is 
appears to come down to how much mail that area is likely to receive, I 
think that's how its described on Wikipedia. So it could cover one 
building, a street or a huge area if rural.


Ordnance Survey sell CodePoint Polygons which is the polygons each 
postcode covers. Obviously we can't use that.


No, that really isn't true.

There is no defined area or polygon for a post code.

Post codes are defined as a list of delivery points.

Any polygon you see for a postcode has been invented by using some 
algorithm to draw a polygon that happens to encapsulate all those 
delivery points.


Depending on the algorithm that may or may allow for overlapping 
polygons and in general you may get different answer depending on the 
details of the algorithm used.


Tom

--
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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Andy Townsend]

On 19/10/2017 13:15, Adam Snape wrote:
To my mind Nominatim should use postal addresses where tagged in 
OSM rather than trying to interpolate a address from admin boundaries. 
As a backup it is better than nothing but it prodcues some bizarre 
results. Somebody might live in Blackburn or Darwen, but they don't 
live in Blackburn with Darwen


I'd much rather that Nominatim tried to guess where I actually live 
rather than the "legal fictions" that the Post Office (or whoever 
they've been sold to now) seem to rely on.


Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[David Woolley]

On 19/10/17 13:15, Adam Snape wrote:
Despite postcode polygons sometimes being used, they are really just 
automatically calculated from the delivery points to which the postcode 
applies.


There is an extended version of the postcode, which includes an extra 
two (I think) characters, that qualify it to an individual delivery 
point.  I think you have to subscribe to the Walksort service, or 
similar, to be able to see the list of those, but anyone who receives 
official mail with a pre-printed bar code, could, in principle, find 
their full code.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Stuart Reynolds]

The Post Office is quite happy to invent places and create addresses that don’t 
reflect the reality on the ground.

For example, Shoeburyness is actually South Shoebury (the CofE church is still 
called St Andrews South Shoebury) but the PO insisted (in the dim and distant 
past) of calling it Shoeburyness because the Garrison was out on the ness.

Equally, a little more up to date, New Mills has a post town of Stockport, in 
Cheshire (or possibly Greater Manchester these days, I’m not sure of the 
boundaries) despite New Mills being firmly in the administrative area of 
Derbyshire. Much to the irritation of the people I knew in New Mills at the 
time!

We run a risk of people external to the UK not understanding this when we put 
it into OSM.


Regards,
Stuart



On 19 Oct 2017, at 13:32, Lester Caine 
> wrote:

On 19/10/17 13:15, Adam Snape wrote:
But Ebbsfleet is not a Post Town. The address will include Swanscombe. I
should have said before that my experience (as an eBay seller) is lots
of  people are unaware of their correct postal address. Each postcode
section eg. DA1, DA2, DA3... will have a particular post town, so I
correct this which I know to be wrong for the postcode. Because several
of the editors don't include a box for suburb or hamlet it is aslo
common to see names of villages or suburbs in the tagged as addr:city.

From a postal point of view, the result of a lookup on the Royal Mail
website is the best way of checking a postcode and the return from DA10
1AZ is longer than some results and is what Steve listed originally. If
we can actually use that view of the data is a little grey, but one can
at least check where one is shipping something is correct. I'm sure
manually top level sorting post, the post person will be looking at the
postal town rather than the postcode, but on automated machines then
only the name and postcode are relevant.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Ed Loach]

> For anyone else reading, we're talking about
> http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postcodes/stats/
> 

When I drilled down a bit I found an NG column with a * in it, e.g.
http://robert.mathmos.net/osm/postcodes/stats/CO/CO13/

In this instance I think the 4 CO13 3 codes are PO Boxes but fall just below 
your threshold of 5 but am wondering if NG is non-geographic?

Thanks

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Lester Caine]

On 19/10/17 13:15, Adam Snape wrote:
> But Ebbsfleet is not a Post Town. The address will include Swanscombe. I
> should have said before that my experience (as an eBay seller) is lots
> of  people are unaware of their correct postal address. Each postcode
> section eg. DA1, DA2, DA3... will have a particular post town, so I
> correct this which I know to be wrong for the postcode. Because several
> of the editors don't include a box for suburb or hamlet it is aslo
> common to see names of villages or suburbs in the tagged as addr:city.

From a postal point of view, the result of a lookup on the Royal Mail
website is the best way of checking a postcode and the return from DA10
1AZ is longer than some results and is what Steve listed originally. If
we can actually use that view of the data is a little grey, but one can
at least check where one is shipping something is correct. I'm sure
manually top level sorting post, the post person will be looking at the
postal town rather than the postcode, but on automated machines then
only the name and postcode are relevant.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Adam Snape]

But Ebbsfleet is not a Post Town. The address will include Swanscombe. I
should have said before that my experience (as an eBay seller) is lots of
people are unaware of their correct postal address. Each postcode section
eg. DA1, DA2, DA3... will have a particular post town, so I correct this
which I know to be wrong for the postcode. Because several of the editors
don't include a box for suburb or hamlet it is aslo common to see names of
villages or suburbs in the tagged as addr:city.

Colin made a couple of great points. A postcode so far as it exists is
really just an attribute applied to various delivery points. Despite
postcode polygons sometimes being used, they are really just automatically
calculated from the delivery points to which the postcode applies.

Colin was also right to draw a distinction between postal addresses and
administrative areas in the UK.  To my mind Nominatim should use postal
addresses where tagged in OSM rather than trying to interpolate a address
from admin boundaries. As a backup it is better than nothing but it
prodcues some bizarre results. Somebody might live in Blackburn or Darwen,
but they don't live in Blackburn with Darwen

Adam

On 19 October 2017 at 12:42, Dave F  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Occasionally, especially with businesses, extra 'bits' get added to make
> their establishment appear posher than it actually is.
> Looking at it's location you can see why. 'Next to the interchange' won't
> entice many customers.
>
> Where did you get that address? Their website shows it as:
>
> Spring River,
> Talbot Lane,
> Ebbsfleet,
> DA10 1AZ
>
> Which bit is Talbot Lane; it's not tagged.
>
> DaveF
>
>
> On 18/10/2017 23:48, Steve Doerr wrote:
>
>> On 10/10/2017 19:07, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>>
>>> It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here yet, but this quarter's UK
>>> mapping project is to improve addresses and postcodes:
>>> https://osmuk.org/uncategorized/jump-in-to-our-quarterly-map
>>> ping-project/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> It would be useful to have some guidance on tagging for UK addresses. For
>> instance, how would you tag the different elements of the following address
>> for a pub/carvery that opened recently near me:
>>
>> The Spring River
>> Talbot Lane
>> Weldon
>> Ebbsfleet Valley
>> SWANSCOMBE
>> DA10 1AZ
>>
>> Regards,
>> Steve
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Philip Barnes]

The polygons can also overlap. The road I live on is a crescent with different 
postcodes for odd (outside) and even (inside) resulting in the centroids being 
close together and within the even area.

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 19 October 2017 13:00:25 BST, Steven Horner  wrote:
>>
>> Postcodes refer to points, not to polygons.
>
>Are you saying a point in OpenStreetMap terms?
>
>UK postcodes generally cover an area/polygon. How big that area is
>appears
>to come down to how much mail that area is likely to receive, I think
>that's how its described on Wikipedia. So it could cover one building,
>a
>street or a huge area if rural.
>
>Ordnance Survey sell CodePoint Polygons which is the polygons each
>postcode
>covers. Obviously we can't use that.
>
>On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Colin Smale 
>wrote:
>
>> In the UK, this algorithm is useless if you expect to get the actual
>> address that you could send a letter to, or that you could ask for
>> directions to.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2017-10-19 13:23, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> Maybe it is interesting to repeat how Nominatim resolves addresses,
>> just in case someone wants to do a search after adding an address.
>>
>> - Nominatim starts from an address point (or building way with
>> address). It takes the house number from it and the street name.
>> - It tries to match the street name with a nearby street.
>> - The rest of the info, suburb, city, country, etc are taken from the
>> way. i.e. it looks in which boundary the way lies and work its way up
>> the admin levels.
>> - In case there is no boundary, it can use a place node as well to
>> determine the name of a certain admin level, but that is less precise
>>
>> - postal codes are taken from the address point, when specified. This
>> is needed in UK/USA but not in e.g. Belgium or Germany.
>>
>>
>> http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org is your friend to understand where
>> the data is coming from.
>>
>> Of course, if you only work with a relational database (as Lester
>> pointed out), one prefers all data on the address node.
>> Relational DB with GIS extensions do not need this (e.g. Nominatim).
>>
>> Nominatim's approach currently has problems with streets on the
>border
>> of e.g. 2 villages. Sara Hoffmann (Lonvia) told me that there are
>some
>> plans to fix this.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> m.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Adam Snape 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm convinced that many such addresses are unnecessarily long (are
>there
>> really multiple Weldons in the Swanscome postal area?). Nevertheless
>we
>> should have a way of mapping them if they are the official address. I
>agree
>> that more general guidance would aid consistency. My address mapping
>> practice is as follows. I would welcome correction if others feel I
>am
>> doing
>> something incorrectly::
>>
>> The post town
>>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom
>is
>> tagged as addr:city (whether or not it is a city or indeed whether an
>> otherwise more important place is nearer). Though this should all be
>in
>> upper case when used I add the tag in lower case with an initial
>capital
>> letter as it would normally be written in a sentence.
>>
>> For sub divisions of this area the wiki has documented tags
>addr:suburb and
>> addr:hamlet. I tend to default to suburb everywhere except when
>dealing
>> with
>> an actual isolated hamlet. Where there are two subdivisions as in
>Steve's
>> example, I'd use hamlet for the smaller one  and suburb for the
>larger one.
>>
>> The wiki suggests to avoid addr:street and addr:place together but I
>use
>> them for things like named retail/business parks where there is also
>a
>> street address eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/527520264
>>
>> I do not tag the name of the property separately if it is the same as
>the
>> main name=* tag
>>
>> Counties have not been formally part of postal addresses for many
>years.
>> Royal Mail permits people to optionally add the name of the old
>Postal
>> County, modern administrative or ceremonial county, or traditional
>county
>> to
>> their address according to their personal preference, but this plays
>no
>> role
>> in delivery. So I do not tag a county in the address.
>>
>>
>> So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot
>Lane,
>> addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley,
>addr:city=Swanscombe,
>> addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ
>>
>> I hope that helps
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>> On 18 Oct 2017 11:49 p.m., "Steve Doerr" 
>wrote:
>>
>> On 10/10/2017 19:07, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>>
>>
>> It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here yet, but this quarter's
>UK
>> mapping project is to improve addresses and postcodes:
>>
>https://osmuk.org/uncategorized/jump-in-to-our-quarterly-mapping-project/
>>
>>
>> It would be useful to have some guidance on tagging for UK addresses.
>For
>> instance, how would you tag the different 

Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Steven Horner]

>
> Postcodes refer to points, not to polygons.

Are you saying a point in OpenStreetMap terms?

UK postcodes generally cover an area/polygon. How big that area is appears
to come down to how much mail that area is likely to receive, I think
that's how its described on Wikipedia. So it could cover one building, a
street or a huge area if rural.

Ordnance Survey sell CodePoint Polygons which is the polygons each postcode
covers. Obviously we can't use that.

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> In the UK, this algorithm is useless if you expect to get the actual
> address that you could send a letter to, or that you could ask for
> directions to.
>
>
>
> On 2017-10-19 13:23, Marc Gemis wrote:
>
> Maybe it is interesting to repeat how Nominatim resolves addresses,
> just in case someone wants to do a search after adding an address.
>
> - Nominatim starts from an address point (or building way with
> address). It takes the house number from it and the street name.
> - It tries to match the street name with a nearby street.
> - The rest of the info, suburb, city, country, etc are taken from the
> way. i.e. it looks in which boundary the way lies and work its way up
> the admin levels.
> - In case there is no boundary, it can use a place node as well to
> determine the name of a certain admin level, but that is less precise
>
> - postal codes are taken from the address point, when specified. This
> is needed in UK/USA but not in e.g. Belgium or Germany.
>
>
> http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org is your friend to understand where
> the data is coming from.
>
> Of course, if you only work with a relational database (as Lester
> pointed out), one prefers all data on the address node.
> Relational DB with GIS extensions do not need this (e.g. Nominatim).
>
> Nominatim's approach currently has problems with streets on the border
> of e.g. 2 villages. Sara Hoffmann (Lonvia) told me that there are some
> plans to fix this.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Adam Snape 
> wrote:
>
> I'm convinced that many such addresses are unnecessarily long (are there
> really multiple Weldons in the Swanscome postal area?). Nevertheless we
> should have a way of mapping them if they are the official address. I agree
> that more general guidance would aid consistency. My address mapping
> practice is as follows. I would welcome correction if others feel I am
> doing
> something incorrectly::
>
> The post town
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom is
> tagged as addr:city (whether or not it is a city or indeed whether an
> otherwise more important place is nearer). Though this should all be in
> upper case when used I add the tag in lower case with an initial capital
> letter as it would normally be written in a sentence.
>
> For sub divisions of this area the wiki has documented tags addr:suburb and
> addr:hamlet. I tend to default to suburb everywhere except when dealing
> with
> an actual isolated hamlet. Where there are two subdivisions as in Steve's
> example, I'd use hamlet for the smaller one  and suburb for the larger one.
>
> The wiki suggests to avoid addr:street and addr:place together but I use
> them for things like named retail/business parks where there is also a
> street address eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/527520264
>
> I do not tag the name of the property separately if it is the same as the
> main name=* tag
>
> Counties have not been formally part of postal addresses for many years.
> Royal Mail permits people to optionally add the name of the old Postal
> County, modern administrative or ceremonial county, or traditional county
> to
> their address according to their personal preference, but this plays no
> role
> in delivery. So I do not tag a county in the address.
>
>
> So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot Lane,
> addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley, addr:city=Swanscombe,
> addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ
>
> I hope that helps
>
> Adam
>
>
> On 18 Oct 2017 11:49 p.m., "Steve Doerr"  wrote:
>
> On 10/10/2017 19:07, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>
>
> It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here yet, but this quarter's UK
> mapping project is to improve addresses and postcodes:
> https://osmuk.org/uncategorized/jump-in-to-our-quarterly-mapping-project/
>
>
> It would be useful to have some guidance on tagging for UK addresses. For
> instance, how would you tag the different elements of the following address
> for a pub/carvery that opened recently near me:
>
> The Spring River
> Talbot Lane
> Weldon
> Ebbsfleet Valley
> SWANSCOMBE
> DA10 1AZ
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
>
> ___
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> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Lester Caine]

On 19/10/17 12:37, Marc Gemis wrote:
> Then at least people know that they should not check with Nominatim.
> 
> AFAIK, Nominatim does not try to generate an address you can put an a
> letter.  It tries to show the address as part of the administrative
> hierarchy defined by the other objects in OSM. Some of those
> administrative levels are not used for letters or navigation where I
> live.

Nominatim produces something of a overloaded location string

Residential Road Smallbrook Road, Broadway, Wychavon, Worcestershire,
West Midlands, England, WR12 7EP, United Kingdom

but then fails to return the street if you do a postcode lookup.

Postcode Broadway, WR12 7EP, United Kingdom

But the main point here is that there are a large number of other useful
boundaries that can be identified via postcodes. It would be nice though
if we could simply use the NLPG reference for every property since it
SHOULD be a freely available database that council tax payers have
financed and councils are required to keep up to date. But it's a
chargeable resource to use :(

-- 
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-
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Dave F]

Hi

Occasionally, especially with businesses, extra 'bits' get added to make 
their establishment appear posher than it actually is.
Looking at it's location you can see why. 'Next to the interchange' 
won't entice many customers.


Where did you get that address? Their website shows it as:

Spring River,
Talbot Lane,
Ebbsfleet,
DA10 1AZ

Which bit is Talbot Lane; it's not tagged.

DaveF

On 18/10/2017 23:48, Steve Doerr wrote:

On 10/10/2017 19:07, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here yet, but this quarter's UK
mapping project is to improve addresses and postcodes:
https://osmuk.org/uncategorized/jump-in-to-our-quarterly-mapping-project/ 






It would be useful to have some guidance on tagging for UK addresses. 
For instance, how would you tag the different elements of the 
following address for a pub/carvery that opened recently near me:


The Spring River
Talbot Lane
Weldon
Ebbsfleet Valley
SWANSCOMBE
DA10 1AZ

Regards,
Steve

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Marc Gemis]

Then at least people know that they should not check with Nominatim.

AFAIK, Nominatim does not try to generate an address you can put an a
letter.  It tries to show the address as part of the administrative
hierarchy defined by the other objects in OSM. Some of those
administrative levels are not used for letters or navigation where I
live.

m.

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> In the UK, this algorithm is useless if you expect to get the actual address
> that you could send a letter to, or that you could ask for directions to.
>
>
>
>
> On 2017-10-19 13:23, Marc Gemis wrote:
>
> Maybe it is interesting to repeat how Nominatim resolves addresses,
> just in case someone wants to do a search after adding an address.
>
> - Nominatim starts from an address point (or building way with
> address). It takes the house number from it and the street name.
> - It tries to match the street name with a nearby street.
> - The rest of the info, suburb, city, country, etc are taken from the
> way. i.e. it looks in which boundary the way lies and work its way up
> the admin levels.
> - In case there is no boundary, it can use a place node as well to
> determine the name of a certain admin level, but that is less precise
>
> - postal codes are taken from the address point, when specified. This
> is needed in UK/USA but not in e.g. Belgium or Germany.
>
>
> http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org is your friend to understand where
> the data is coming from.
>
> Of course, if you only work with a relational database (as Lester
> pointed out), one prefers all data on the address node.
> Relational DB with GIS extensions do not need this (e.g. Nominatim).
>
> Nominatim's approach currently has problems with streets on the border
> of e.g. 2 villages. Sara Hoffmann (Lonvia) told me that there are some
> plans to fix this.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Adam Snape  wrote:
>
> I'm convinced that many such addresses are unnecessarily long (are there
> really multiple Weldons in the Swanscome postal area?). Nevertheless we
> should have a way of mapping them if they are the official address. I agree
> that more general guidance would aid consistency. My address mapping
> practice is as follows. I would welcome correction if others feel I am doing
> something incorrectly::
>
> The post town
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom is
> tagged as addr:city (whether or not it is a city or indeed whether an
> otherwise more important place is nearer). Though this should all be in
> upper case when used I add the tag in lower case with an initial capital
> letter as it would normally be written in a sentence.
>
> For sub divisions of this area the wiki has documented tags addr:suburb and
> addr:hamlet. I tend to default to suburb everywhere except when dealing with
> an actual isolated hamlet. Where there are two subdivisions as in Steve's
> example, I'd use hamlet for the smaller one  and suburb for the larger one.
>
> The wiki suggests to avoid addr:street and addr:place together but I use
> them for things like named retail/business parks where there is also a
> street address eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/527520264
>
> I do not tag the name of the property separately if it is the same as the
> main name=* tag
>
> Counties have not been formally part of postal addresses for many years.
> Royal Mail permits people to optionally add the name of the old Postal
> County, modern administrative or ceremonial county, or traditional county to
> their address according to their personal preference, but this plays no role
> in delivery. So I do not tag a county in the address.
>
>
> So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot Lane,
> addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley, addr:city=Swanscombe,
> addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ
>
> I hope that helps
>
> Adam
>
>
> On 18 Oct 2017 11:49 p.m., "Steve Doerr"  wrote:
>
> On 10/10/2017 19:07, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>
>
> It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here yet, but this quarter's UK
> mapping project is to improve addresses and postcodes:
> https://osmuk.org/uncategorized/jump-in-to-our-quarterly-mapping-project/
>
>
> It would be useful to have some guidance on tagging for UK addresses. For
> instance, how would you tag the different elements of the following address
> for a pub/carvery that opened recently near me:
>
> The Spring River
> Talbot Lane
> Weldon
> Ebbsfleet Valley
> SWANSCOMBE
> DA10 1AZ
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Colin Smale]

In the UK, this algorithm is useless if you expect to get the actual
address that you could send a letter to, or that you could ask for
directions to.

On 2017-10-19 13:23, Marc Gemis wrote:

> Maybe it is interesting to repeat how Nominatim resolves addresses,
> just in case someone wants to do a search after adding an address.
> 
> - Nominatim starts from an address point (or building way with
> address). It takes the house number from it and the street name.
> - It tries to match the street name with a nearby street.
> - The rest of the info, suburb, city, country, etc are taken from the
> way. i.e. it looks in which boundary the way lies and work its way up
> the admin levels.
> - In case there is no boundary, it can use a place node as well to
> determine the name of a certain admin level, but that is less precise
> 
> - postal codes are taken from the address point, when specified. This
> is needed in UK/USA but not in e.g. Belgium or Germany.
> 
> http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org is your friend to understand where
> the data is coming from.
> 
> Of course, if you only work with a relational database (as Lester
> pointed out), one prefers all data on the address node.
> Relational DB with GIS extensions do not need this (e.g. Nominatim).
> 
> Nominatim's approach currently has problems with streets on the border
> of e.g. 2 villages. Sara Hoffmann (Lonvia) told me that there are some
> plans to fix this.
> 
> regards
> 
> m.
> 
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Adam Snape  wrote: 
> I'm convinced that many such addresses are unnecessarily long (are there
> really multiple Weldons in the Swanscome postal area?). Nevertheless we
> should have a way of mapping them if they are the official address. I agree
> that more general guidance would aid consistency. My address mapping
> practice is as follows. I would welcome correction if others feel I am doing
> something incorrectly::
> 
> The post town
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom is
> tagged as addr:city (whether or not it is a city or indeed whether an
> otherwise more important place is nearer). Though this should all be in
> upper case when used I add the tag in lower case with an initial capital
> letter as it would normally be written in a sentence.
> 
> For sub divisions of this area the wiki has documented tags addr:suburb and
> addr:hamlet. I tend to default to suburb everywhere except when dealing with
> an actual isolated hamlet. Where there are two subdivisions as in Steve's
> example, I'd use hamlet for the smaller one  and suburb for the larger one.
> 
> The wiki suggests to avoid addr:street and addr:place together but I use
> them for things like named retail/business parks where there is also a
> street address eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/527520264
> 
> I do not tag the name of the property separately if it is the same as the
> main name=* tag
> 
> Counties have not been formally part of postal addresses for many years.
> Royal Mail permits people to optionally add the name of the old Postal
> County, modern administrative or ceremonial county, or traditional county to
> their address according to their personal preference, but this plays no role
> in delivery. So I do not tag a county in the address.
> 
> So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot Lane,
> addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley, addr:city=Swanscombe,
> addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ
> 
> I hope that helps
> 
> Adam
> 
> On 18 Oct 2017 11:49 p.m., "Steve Doerr"  wrote:
> 
> On 10/10/2017 19:07, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote: 
> It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here yet, but this quarter's UK
> mapping project is to improve addresses and postcodes:
> https://osmuk.org/uncategorized/jump-in-to-our-quarterly-mapping-project/
> 
> It would be useful to have some guidance on tagging for UK addresses. For
> instance, how would you tag the different elements of the following address
> for a pub/carvery that opened recently near me:
> 
> The Spring River
> Talbot Lane
> Weldon
> Ebbsfleet Valley
> SWANSCOMBE
> DA10 1AZ
> 
> Regards,
> Steve
> 
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> 
> ___
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> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Colin Smale]

We have to remember that in the UK there is only a tenuous link between
the postal address and the physical address. A building can have
multiple postcodes, and the road/place in the postal address may not be
the same as the road/place you might expect from looking at the "nearest
road" and admin boundaries etc. Also not all buildings have postcodes,
even if geometry suggests which code they would have by virtue of the
codes on surrounding buildings. Postcodes refer to points, not to
polygons. 

If we add addr:* tags to objects we should make it clear that they are
POSTAL addresses, and cannot reliably be derived from geometry alone.

--colin 

On 2017-10-19 12:35, Adam Snape wrote:

> Doesn't its location within the UK make an explicit UK tag unnecessary? The 
> postcode, where present does usually indicate the other address details 
> (though very occasionally postcodes can include more than one street). 
> However we have no way of tagging attributes to a postcode rather than an OSM 
> object. Using associated street relations 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:associatedStreet might be an 
> option but seems a bit overly complicated. 
> 
> On 19 October 2017 at 11:04, Lester Caine  wrote:
> 
>> On 19/10/17 09:35, Adam Snape wrote:
>>> So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot
>>> Lane, addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley,
>>> addr:city=Swanscombe, addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ
>> 
>> One of those itches to be scratched that have been discussed elsewhere ...
>> Do we really need to add 'addr:street=Talbot Lane, addr:hamlet=Weldon,
>> addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley, addr:city=Swanscombe,' to every object on
>> the street? addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ provides that data and more besides
>> and only needs augmenting with a house name/number for an address. With
>> all the other data manipulation tools being discussed, one which
>> provides common data for an object is long overdue.
>> 
>> Looking at the long format, should it not also include
>> addr:country=United Kingdom so that one knows just how to validate the
>> postcode anyway ... although I am tending towards addr:postcode:UK=DA10
>> 1AZ so that one can pick up the correct secondary data easily ...
>> 
>> --
>> Lester Caine - G8HFL
>> -
>> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact [1]
>> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
>> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
>> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
>> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk [2]
>> 
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb [3]
> 
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Links:
--
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[2] http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Marc Gemis]

Maybe it is interesting to repeat how Nominatim resolves addresses,
just in case someone wants to do a search after adding an address.

- Nominatim starts from an address point (or building way with
address). It takes the house number from it and the street name.
- It tries to match the street name with a nearby street.
- The rest of the info, suburb, city, country, etc are taken from the
way. i.e. it looks in which boundary the way lies and work its way up
the admin levels.
- In case there is no boundary, it can use a place node as well to
determine the name of a certain admin level, but that is less precise

- postal codes are taken from the address point, when specified. This
is needed in UK/USA but not in e.g. Belgium or Germany.


http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org is your friend to understand where
the data is coming from.

Of course, if you only work with a relational database (as Lester
pointed out), one prefers all data on the address node.
Relational DB with GIS extensions do not need this (e.g. Nominatim).

Nominatim's approach currently has problems with streets on the border
of e.g. 2 villages. Sara Hoffmann (Lonvia) told me that there are some
plans to fix this.

regards

m.

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Adam Snape  wrote:
> I'm convinced that many such addresses are unnecessarily long (are there
> really multiple Weldons in the Swanscome postal area?). Nevertheless we
> should have a way of mapping them if they are the official address. I agree
> that more general guidance would aid consistency. My address mapping
> practice is as follows. I would welcome correction if others feel I am doing
> something incorrectly::
>
> The post town
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom is
> tagged as addr:city (whether or not it is a city or indeed whether an
> otherwise more important place is nearer). Though this should all be in
> upper case when used I add the tag in lower case with an initial capital
> letter as it would normally be written in a sentence.
>
> For sub divisions of this area the wiki has documented tags addr:suburb and
> addr:hamlet. I tend to default to suburb everywhere except when dealing with
> an actual isolated hamlet. Where there are two subdivisions as in Steve's
> example, I'd use hamlet for the smaller one  and suburb for the larger one.
>
> The wiki suggests to avoid addr:street and addr:place together but I use
> them for things like named retail/business parks where there is also a
> street address eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/527520264
>
> I do not tag the name of the property separately if it is the same as the
> main name=* tag
>
> Counties have not been formally part of postal addresses for many years.
> Royal Mail permits people to optionally add the name of the old Postal
> County, modern administrative or ceremonial county, or traditional county to
> their address according to their personal preference, but this plays no role
> in delivery. So I do not tag a county in the address.
>
>
> So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot Lane,
> addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley, addr:city=Swanscombe,
> addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ
>
> I hope that helps
>
> Adam
>
>
> On 18 Oct 2017 11:49 p.m., "Steve Doerr"  wrote:
>
> On 10/10/2017 19:07, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>>
>> It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here yet, but this quarter's UK
>> mapping project is to improve addresses and postcodes:
>> https://osmuk.org/uncategorized/jump-in-to-our-quarterly-mapping-project/
>>
>>
>
> It would be useful to have some guidance on tagging for UK addresses. For
> instance, how would you tag the different elements of the following address
> for a pub/carvery that opened recently near me:
>
> The Spring River
> Talbot Lane
> Weldon
> Ebbsfleet Valley
> SWANSCOMBE
> DA10 1AZ
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Lester Caine]

On 19/10/17 11:35, Adam Snape wrote:
> Doesn't its location within the UK make an explicit UK tag unnecessary?
But when reading a single object tags do you know just where it is? Some
other mechanism has to return the 'inside boundary' data which takes
processing power.

> The postcode, where present does usually indicate the other address
> details (though very occasionally postcodes can include more than one
> street). However we have no way of tagging attributes to a postcode
> rather than an OSM object. 
The original UK postcode rules were one (or more) postcodes per street.
The rules have been bent a little but this is achieved by making the
'extra' street data part of the building details rather than the
postcode. Accessing secondary data without having to store ALL of it in
every tag is the problem, and one that should be solvable?

> Using associated street relations
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:associatedStreet might be an
> option but seems a bit overly complicated.
Relations have never worked well in my view. Comes full circle here. How
do you identify the boundaries that objects are inside when it is
described by a complex relation. Properly handled 'relations' could
allow all higher level data to be accessed in a simple data read ...
something relational databases are good at.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Adam Snape]

Doesn't its location within the UK make an explicit UK tag unnecessary? The
postcode, where present does usually indicate the other address details
(though very occasionally postcodes can include more than one street).
However we have no way of tagging attributes to a postcode rather than an
OSM object. Using associated street relations
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:associatedStreet might be an
option but seems a bit overly complicated.

On 19 October 2017 at 11:04, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 19/10/17 09:35, Adam Snape wrote:
> > So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot
> > Lane, addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley,
> > addr:city=Swanscombe, addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ
>
> One of those itches to be scratched that have been discussed elsewhere ...
> Do we really need to add 'addr:street=Talbot Lane, addr:hamlet=Weldon,
> addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley, addr:city=Swanscombe,' to every object on
> the street? addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ provides that data and more besides
> and only needs augmenting with a house name/number for an address. With
> all the other data manipulation tools being discussed, one which
> provides common data for an object is long overdue.
>
> Looking at the long format, should it not also include
> addr:country=United Kingdom so that one knows just how to validate the
> postcode anyway ... although I am tending towards addr:postcode:UK=DA10
> 1AZ so that one can pick up the correct secondary data easily ...
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Lester Caine]

On 19/10/17 09:35, Adam Snape wrote:
> So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot
> Lane, addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley,
> addr:city=Swanscombe, addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ

One of those itches to be scratched that have been discussed elsewhere ...
Do we really need to add 'addr:street=Talbot Lane, addr:hamlet=Weldon,
addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley, addr:city=Swanscombe,' to every object on
the street? addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ provides that data and more besides
and only needs augmenting with a house name/number for an address. With
all the other data manipulation tools being discussed, one which
provides common data for an object is long overdue.

Looking at the long format, should it not also include
addr:country=United Kingdom so that one knows just how to validate the
postcode anyway ... although I am tending towards addr:postcode:UK=DA10
1AZ so that one can pick up the correct secondary data easily ...

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Addresses and Postcodes

[Adam Snape]

I'm convinced that many such addresses are unnecessarily long (are there
really multiple Weldons in the Swanscome postal area?). Nevertheless we
should have a way of mapping them if they are the official address. I agree
that more general guidance would aid consistency. My address mapping
practice is as follows. I would welcome correction if others feel I am
doing something incorrectly::


   - The post town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post_towns_in_the_
   United_Kingdom is tagged as addr:city (whether or not it is a city or
   indeed whether an otherwise more important place is nearer). Though this
   should all be in upper case when used I add the tag in lower case with an
   initial capital letter as it would normally be written in a sentence.


   - For sub divisions of this area the wiki has documented tags
   addr:suburb and addr:hamlet. I tend to default to suburb everywhere except
   when dealing with an actual isolated hamlet. Where there are two
   subdivisions as in Steve's example, I'd use hamlet for the smaller one  and
   suburb for the larger one.


   - The wiki suggests to avoid addr:street and addr:place together but I
   use them for things like named retail/business parks where there is also a
   street address eg. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/527520264


   - I do not tag the name of the property separately if it is the same as
   the main name=* tag


   - Counties have not been formally part of postal addresses for many
   years. Royal Mail permits people to optionally add the name of the old
   Postal County, modern administrative or ceremonial county, or traditional
   county to their address according to their personal preference, but this
   plays no role in delivery. So I do not tag a county in the address.


So I'd tag Steve's example: name=The Spring River, addr:street=Talbot Lane,
addr:hamlet=Weldon, addr:suburb=Ebbsfleet Valley, addr:city=Swanscombe,
addr:postcode=DA10 1AZ

I hope that helps

Adam


On 18 Oct 2017 11:49 p.m., "Steve Doerr"  wrote:

On 10/10/2017 19:07, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:

> It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here yet, but this quarter's UK
> mapping project is to improve addresses and postcodes:
> https://osmuk.org/uncategorized/jump-in-to-our-quarterly-mapping-project/
>
>
>
It would be useful to have some guidance on tagging for UK addresses. For
instance, how would you tag the different elements of the following address
for a pub/carvery that opened recently near me:

The Spring River
Talbot Lane
Weldon
Ebbsfleet Valley
SWANSCOMBE
DA10 1AZ

Regards,
Steve


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