Re: [Vo]:Re: can Ethan's hidden double power wires explain regular exponential temperature rises and falls every 6 minutes for 5 days in Rossi HT2: Ethan: Rich Murray 2013.05.23
I see heat transfer as in a super-fluid, that is almost instansious. *I am confident the there is a global condensation of polariton states in a Ni/H reactor. This general condition of Bose-Einstein condensation means that the micro-powder and perhaps even the hydrogen envelope is a superfluid that conducts heat with little or no resistance.* * * *A superfluid conducts heat better than copper, a 1000 times better, which is yet an excellent conductor in its own right. The reason is that thanks to superfluidity, a perfect liquid can easily move from hot zones to cold zones, enabling a thermal conduction by convection, a phenomenon much more efficient than the usual gradual heat diffusion. * * * *When you put a saucepan of water on a hotplate, the bottom is hotter than the free surface. Bubbles appear in the bottom, get bigger, get loose and spread over the water: the water is boiling. * * * *However, in a superfluid, the great thermal conduction requires a very homogeneous temperature everywhere. In the absence of zones hotter than others, transformation from liquid to vapor can only happen at the free surface where a superfluid evaporates: there are no bubbles. A superfluid vaporizes without boiling. * * * *What concerns many theorists of the Ni/H reactor is how heat produced by a few grams of nickel powder can be transmitted to the walls of the reactor.* * * *The general state of superfluidity keeps the temperature uniform throughout the hydrogen envelop. The walls of the reactor are the same temperature as the micro-powder because of a general state of Bose-Einstein condensation made possible by the polariton.* * * *Do you see any indication of this superfluid in the data from the test?* On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:43 AM, Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com wrote: can Ethan's hidden double power wires explain almost linear temperature rises and falls every 6 minutes for 5 days in Rossi HT2: Ethan: Rich Murray 2013.05.23 http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2013/05/can-ethans-hidden-double-power-wires.html http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2013/05/rossi-e-cat-ht-shows-excess-heat-from-h.html http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/05/21/the-e-cat-is-back-and-people-are-still-falling-for-it/ comment #103 2013.05.23 Thursday noon PST Ethan, I appreciate your spirited critique, especially the simple hidden double wire scam -- which if power was actually supplied at high voltages, could be very small in diameter. I wonder if this can explain the remarkably constant temperature rises and falls with almost linear curves shown for runs of up to 5 days? within the fellowship of service, Rich Murray rmforall at gmail.com http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1305/1305.3913.pdf page 25 bottom: Remarks on the test An interesting aspect of the E-Cat HT2 is certainly its capacity to operate in self-sustaining mode. The values of temperature and production of energy which were obtained are the result of averages not merely gained through data capture performed at different times; they are also relevant to the resistor coils’ ON/OFF cycle itself. By plotting the average temperature vs time for a few minutes of test (Plot 3) one can clearly see how it varies between a maximum and a minimum value with a fixed periodicity. Plot 3. Average surface temperature trend of the E-Cat HT2 over several minutes of operation. Note the heating and cooling trends of the device, which appear to be different from the exponential characteristics of generic resistor. Looking at Plot 3, the first feature one notices is the appearance taken by the curve in both the heating and cooling phases of the device. If we compare these in detail with the standard curves of a generic resistor (Plot 4 and Plot 5), we see that the former differ from the latter in that they are not of the exponential type. Plot 4. Comparing the typical heating curve of a generic resistor (left, [Ref. 9]) to the one relevant to one of the E-Cat HT2’s ON states. Finally, the complete ON/OFF cycle of the E-Cat HT2, as seen in Plot 3, may be compared with the typical heating-cooling cycle of a resistor, as displayed in Plot 6. Plot 6. Heating and cooling cycle of a generic resistor [Ref. 9]. The trend is described by exponential type equations. What appears obvious here is that the priming mechanism pertaining to some sort of reaction inside the device speeds up the rise in temperature, and keeps the temperatures higher during the cooling phase. Another very interesting behavior is brought out by synchronically comparing another two curves: power produced over time by the E-Cat HT2, and power consumed during the same time. An example of this may be seen in Plot 7, which refers to about three hours of test. The resistor coils ON/OFF cycle is plotted in red, while the power-emission trend of the device appears in blue. Plot 8. Detail taken from Plot 7, reproducing the first two periods of the
Re: [Vo]:Some reasons Rossi has personal credibility
Strange, in my observation 3 things define the best engineers I know (of few hundred I have met): 1 Excellent/encyclopedic memory - at least for engineering stuff, may not be able to remember their friends names or where they put their keys. 2 Good at mental calculation (assess what-ifs quickly). 3 Powerful work ethic. Raw smarts help too. On 23 May 2013 23:05, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Craig cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: . . . it doesn't surprise me that someone with a poor memory can also be an excellent engineer. The two traits go together. With me, for instance, it's because I have a hard time remembering, that I have become an excellent problem solver. When I look at code that I've written, just a few months earlier; it's like looking at new code which I've never seen before. I then have to reconstruct the solutions to the problems -- again -- from scratch. That is an interesting observation. I have the same kind of mind. I too see programs afresh the next day. That is helpful for jobs that require you to do the same thing over and over, year after year, such as teaching 5th grade. I imagine you would be bored to tears doing that if you could not find the same old historylesson interesting the 10th time around. I suppose Yul Brynner must have had this quality since he was able to perform The King And I on stage 4,625 (!) times. I guess that is a good thing. I think that the ability to forget is essential to many formsof creativity. There are people who do not forget things. They have prodigious memories and they can remember details from years or decades ago. If this ability gave us an evolutionary advantage everyone would have it. Since most of us tend to forget things I assume that promotes survival in natural circumstances. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat Tester's Bios
Right. It's a way to effect DD fusion without high temperature. The similarity to WL is the use of energetic (relativistic) electrons, instead of high temperature. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 12:31 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: Joshua, Essen's paper suggests a novel way to use magnetic pinching and electron screening to effect conventional D+D fusion. Aside from the fact that both he and W-L use the Darwin Hamiltonian to calculate magnetic forces, their approaches are totally different. -- Lou Pagnucco Joshua Cude wrote: I have not seen any critical remarks from Essen on Rossi, or any evidence that he had it in for cold fusion. However, in 2006, he published a paper (arXiv:physics/0607138v1 [physics.plasm-ph] 14 Jul 2006) on a cold fusion related theory, entitled Catalyzing Fusion with Relativistic Electrons, so it seems he has a history of some sympathy for the field. There may be some connection here to the WL theory. In fact, it may be that he has an interest in seeing his theory have some relevance.
[Vo]:Real time Plasmon formation.
http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/hires/2013/goldnanocrys.jpg A lenr lab must have this equipment.
Re: [Vo]:Some reasons Rossi has personal credibility
These testers are not predominantly engineers. And especially they are not predominantly electrical or electronics engineers, and this seems to me to be a most desirable skill to have in this situation. That's unless you trust Rossi implicitly (and if you do, you're welcome). Andrew - Original Message - From: Robert Lynn To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 12:03 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Some reasons Rossi has personal credibility Strange, in my observation 3 things define the best engineers I know (of few hundred I have met): 1 Excellent/encyclopedic memory - at least for engineering stuff, may not be able to remember their friends names or where they put their keys. 2 Good at mental calculation (assess what-ifs quickly). 3 Powerful work ethic. Raw smarts help too. On 23 May 2013 23:05, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Craig cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: . . . it doesn't surprise me that someone with a poor memory can also be an excellent engineer. The two traits go together. With me, for instance, it's because I have a hard time remembering, that I have become an excellent problem solver. When I look at code that I've written, just a few months earlier; it's like looking at new code which I've never seen before. I then have to reconstruct the solutions to the problems -- again -- from scratch. That is an interesting observation. I have the same kind of mind. I too see programs afresh the next day. That is helpful for jobs that require you to do the same thing over and over, year after year, such as teaching 5th grade. I imagine you would be bored to tears doing that if you could not find the same old historylesson interesting the 10th time around. I suppose Yul Brynner must have had this quality since he was able to perform The King And I on stage 4,625 (!) times. I guess that is a good thing. I think that the ability to forget is essential to many formsof creativity. There are people who do not forget things. They have prodigious memories and they can remember details from years or decades ago. If this ability gave us an evolutionary advantage everyone would have it. Since most of us tend to forget things I assume that promotes survival in natural circumstances. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Some reasons Rossi has personal credibility
Dear Robert, as an engineer with more than 53 years practice, in my opinion the definitory virtues of an engineer are; a) Problem solving mentality and ability (real life problems); b) Dedication to technological progress in his field c)Work discipline in sys-thinking (systematic and system based) d) Creative teamwork I would be pleased if you read: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2011/08/technology-mon-amour.html As a a positive example, please consider the Defkalion team. And also essential for engineering, management and business is FASTNESS. Peter On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Strange, in my observation 3 things define the best engineers I know (of few hundred I have met): 1 Excellent/encyclopedic memory - at least for engineering stuff, may not be able to remember their friends names or where they put their keys. 2 Good at mental calculation (assess what-ifs quickly). 3 Powerful work ethic. Raw smarts help too. On 23 May 2013 23:05, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Craig cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: . . . it doesn't surprise me that someone with a poor memory can also be an excellent engineer. The two traits go together. With me, for instance, it's because I have a hard time remembering, that I have become an excellent problem solver. When I look at code that I've written, just a few months earlier; it's like looking at new code which I've never seen before. I then have to reconstruct the solutions to the problems -- again -- from scratch. That is an interesting observation. I have the same kind of mind. I too see programs afresh the next day. That is helpful for jobs that require you to do the same thing over and over, year after year, such as teaching 5th grade. I imagine you would be bored to tears doing that if you could not find the same old historylesson interesting the 10th time around. I suppose Yul Brynner must have had this quality since he was able to perform The King And I on stage 4,625 (!) times. I guess that is a good thing. I think that the ability to forget is essential to many formsof creativity. There are people who do not forget things. They have prodigious memories and they can remember details from years or decades ago. If this ability gave us an evolutionary advantage everyone would have it. Since most of us tend to forget things I assume that promotes survival in natural circumstances. - Jed -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
[Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
This has only just occurred to me, but in my mind is a bit of a red flag: The reactor vessel is a sealed metal container, no electrical or magnetic signal of any frequency will penetrate it (It is a faraday cage). And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. All of these configurational details were revealed to the testers by Rossi. So why did Rossi feel the need to prevent detailed analysis of the input power to these resistors that are no more than resistive heaters? We know he ran it in at least a partially pulsed 35% on 65% off mode with period of about 6 minutes from the thermography. So what possible harm could have come from allowing continuous measurement of voltage drop and current flow through the resistors? As such preventing that measurement serves no sensible purpose that I, or any other engineer/scientist could see, it is a pointless obfuscation. All it achieves is raising suspicion about just what electrical power is really flowing through those resistors.
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Many of us are saying that. I think it's the primary criticism. - Original Message - From: Robert Lynn To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 1:00 AM Subject: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? This has only just occurred to me, but in my mind is a bit of a red flag: The reactor vessel is a sealed metal container, no electrical or magnetic signal of any frequency will penetrate it (It is a faraday cage). And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. All of these configurational details were revealed to the testers by Rossi. So why did Rossi feel the need to prevent detailed analysis of the input power to these resistors that are no more than resistive heaters? We know he ran it in at least a partially pulsed 35% on 65% off mode with period of about 6 minutes from the thermography. So what possible harm could have come from allowing continuous measurement of voltage drop and current flow through the resistors? As such preventing that measurement serves no sensible purpose that I, or any other engineer/scientist could see, it is a pointless obfuscation. All it achieves is raising suspicion about just what electrical power is really flowing through those resistors.
Re: [Vo]:Levi Hot Cat paper is a gem
seems good description, but I would add a 5th category of target, probably not targeted because scientist talk naturally to scientists. -5 industrialists and their engineers, looking for opportunities It is the only useful target in my opinion. mainstream scientists will never accept newly coming open mind scientists or LENR scientists to be funded. Funding can only came from industrialists, through innovators experienced in venture management. the is no hope in normal science during a paradigm change, that is scientifically proven ( ;- ). the report should be rewritten, with the scientific paper as appendix, to explain what is the result, and why it cannot be error or fraud... targeted to higher-level industrialist more experienced with human factors, frauds, delusion, energy ratios, industrialization problems, than with lab tools, and able afterward to ask few of their own engineers to check the paper and make the real peer-review. anyway the procedure is good, since first the paper should be peer-reviewed, and the more attacks, the best it can resist to honest questions later. 2013/5/23 Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Another reason to think they do not intend to submit for publication in a reputable scientific journal -- they cite Wikipedia (ref. 8, at the end). Lordy, lordy -- it's firgin diagram -- a compilation of generally available information, and not really central to the paper. It would have been easy to miss my point, since I expressed it a little intemperately. My point was about communication and not the substance of the paper. As far as I know, Levi and the others measured exactly what they said they measured, and Rossi demonstrated a device with COP 2.6+. I was talking about effective communication. Who are the authors trying to persuade? Their intended audience will shape the approach they will want to take. Four possibilities come to mind: 1. The general public. 2. Cold fusion people. 3. Open-minded scientists without much exposure to cold fusion. 4. Close-minded scientists (Lubos Motl, etc.). If you're going for (1), you probably also want to aim for (3). If you're going for (3), you should try to meet those folks half-way. That means dotting your i's and crossing your t's. I would not be surprised if there is a body of sociological literature on why the process for preparing a paper for submission is so complex and fraught with possible errors. For example, there is the typesetting that I gather the authors are intended to do themselves, at least in part. And any professional scientist is expected to have (at some point in the submission process) an impeccable command of grammar and punctuation and so on. I think these things provide a signal to others about whether the authors have been thorough. Did they miss something important, e.g., did they forget to look at the power supply? They missed some simple things, like fixing up the funky formula, and they didn't bother to ask for help, so perhaps they missed the power supply. This kind of thing is a distraction. Distractions are bad. People hold different productions to different standards. You ignore for the most part whether your younger niece is hitting a few wrong notes in a piano performance during a holiday and enjoy the show. You hold a concert pianist to a different standard, and those kinds of mistakes look very bad. People in category (3) are expecting something along the lines of the latter and will be distracted by something aiming for the standards of the former. Effective communication involves minimizing distraction. People in (3), above, are no doubt looking for journal articles. If we want to persuade them that there might be something to cold fusion, we should try to meet them half-way. Even if journals have a policy of avoiding cold fusion articles, people should still aim for the same level of quality. By the way, I suspect that some (certainly not many) of the close minded folks are actually secretly open-minded people and are just playing devils advocate to get some good counterarguments. We don't know who suggested the radiometric calorimetry method and the use of the Ragone plot. Chicken? Egg? And even if Levi et al DID follow he previous methodology, is that bad? No, it's not that bad. It's just something that can be expected to trigger an alarm bell in a casual observer (need not be a debunker), since no mention is made of the earlier paper as far as I can tell. It gives the impression of a naive adoption of the earlier methods. Anything that looks like naivety can be expected to impair effective communication. I get that we here don't have those kinds of filters and are looking at other details, but we should not expect open minded scientists to discard them all at once. Eric
[Vo]:Hartman's not a vet...
Hi All, My first post, after a couple of year's hiding in the shadows.. Just want to settle a couple of things. Torbjörn Hartman's personal merits (as listed at http://katalog.uu.se/empInfo?id=N96-5170) state Dr.Med.vet., civ.ing.. Assuming the line is written in Swedish (which it is, trust me : ), it says: Doktor i Medicinsk Vetenskap, Civilingenjör. These translate into English as: PhD Medical Science, MSc. So, my guess is he did an MSc in Engineering Physics (5 yrs) followed by research/studies in medicine. CivIng does NOT mean Civil Engineer in Sweden. It covers ALL higher level engineering science paths, that lead to a Master's level degree, and are 4-5 years long. The traditional paths being ChemEng, EE, Eng Physics, Computer Science and _Civil_Engineering_ I am bilingual (Swedish/English) and did Engineering Physics (MSc) : ) /Sunil
RE: [Vo]:Levi hot-cat paper means squat
Yes, but referees could be part of the international conspiracy that Rossi is commanding.
Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet...
DEFINITELY not a vet. A Swedish corresponded wrote to me: Med.vet = Medicinsk vetenskap = Medicine Science (not a veterinarien) civ.ing. = civilingenjör = Master of Science (M Sc) in any dicipline (not only building infrastructure) The mix-up is hilarious. - Jed
[Vo]:Google investing in kite-borne wind turbines
See: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2013/05/google-reels-in-wind-kite-firm-makani
Re: [Vo]:Levi hot-cat paper means squat
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: Yes, but referees could be part of the international conspiracy that Rossi is commanding. Why Rational People Buy Into Conspiracy Theories http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/why-rational-people-buy-into-conspiracy-theories.html
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. All of these configurational details were revealed to the testers by Rossi. My guess is that it is some sort of pulsation, perhaps similar to the Energetics Technology superwaves. On the other hand, that might be detected by monitoring power between the wall socket and the power supply. I think there can be secrets even with this configuration. Not everything that Rossi does makes sense. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Has energetics technology ever achieved any success? 2013/5/24 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. All of these configurational details were revealed to the testers by Rossi. My guess is that it is some sort of pulsation, perhaps similar to the Energetics Technology superwaves. On the other hand, that might be detected by monitoring power between the wall socket and the power supply. I think there can be secrets even with this configuration. Not everything that Rossi does makes sense. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Has energetics technology ever achieved any success? Yes, they have many positive experiments, confirmed by Duncan and others. See, for example: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIultrasonic.pdf - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Yes, pulsing the current across a loaded sample is often useful. I find that pulses in the 0.1 to 400 Hz region with a fast rise time often stimulates excess. But then I am using metal in carbon materials and don't have anything like the power densities that Rossi has. (pure metal powders quickly sintered on me once above 350 C), I think that Defkalion uses spark like systems onto surfaces where I use current through the material). Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:13:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. All of these configurational details were revealed to the testers by Rossi. My guess is that it is some sort of pulsation, perhaps similar to the Energetics Technology superwaves. On the other hand, that might be detected by monitoring power between the wall socket and the power supply. I think there can be secrets even with this configuration. Not everything that Rossi does makes sense. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Robert Lynn wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. There is still confusion on that point. From Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing -of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/ They described the E-Cat HT as a cylinder having a silicon nitride ceramic outer shell, 33 cm in length, and 10 cm in diameter. A second cylinder made of a different ceramic material (corundum) was located within the shell... It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?
Re: [Vo]:Some reasons Rossi has personal credibility
Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Strange, in my observation 3 things define the best engineers I know (of few hundred I have met): 1 Excellent/encyclopedic memory - at least for engineering stuff, may not be able to remember their friends names or where they put their keys. 2 Good at mental calculation (assess what-ifs quickly). 3 Powerful work ethic. Different kinds of people with different kinds of minds can make contributions. At the beginning of a project you might need someone with freewheeling imagination not constrained by facts. Later you want someone good at mental calculation. Many discoveries come from a temporary suspension of facts or common sense, which some people are good at. A person good at mental calculation may not be. Here is a classic example: Q: How do you reduce pollution in rivers from factories? A: You mandate that all factories must be built downstream to themselves. This makes no sense at first glance but it is a practical idea that has been widely implemented. It means the water inlet pipe for a factory must be placed below the water outlet pipe. You don't have to put the entire factory downstream of itself, just part of it. Work ethic is good but some people get their best ideas half-asleep. There is a story of Henry Ford. He brought an efficiency expert into his factory who spent a few weeks looking around and talking to people. The expert came into Ford's office and said: I have met all of your staff and I impressed with everyone except for that fellow at the end of the hall. Every time I see him, he has his feet up on the desk, his hands behind his head and he's gazing up into space. He doesn't seem to do any work. Ford said, leave him alone, he once saved me a million dollars when he had his feet up on the desk like that. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Because when he DOES finally allow it, and its fine, people will look stupid. Its never what the magician tells you NOT to look at thats important, its what he tells you to look at. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:00 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: This has only just occurred to me, but in my mind is a bit of a red flag: The reactor vessel is a sealed metal container, no electrical or magnetic signal of any frequency will penetrate it (It is a faraday cage). And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. All of these configurational details were revealed to the testers by Rossi. So why did Rossi feel the need to prevent detailed analysis of the input power to these resistors that are no more than resistive heaters? We know he ran it in at least a partially pulsed 35% on 65% off mode with period of about 6 minutes from the thermography. So what possible harm could have come from allowing continuous measurement of voltage drop and current flow through the resistors? As such preventing that measurement serves no sensible purpose that I, or any other engineer/scientist could see, it is a pointless obfuscation. All it achieves is raising suspicion about just what electrical power is really flowing through those resistors.
RE: [Vo]:Some reasons Rossi has personal credibility
feet up on the desk I wish I had a like button. D2 Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:33:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Some reasons Rossi has personal credibility From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Strange, in my observation 3 things define the best engineers I know (of few hundred I have met):1 Excellent/encyclopedic memory - at least for engineering stuff, may not be able to remember their friends names or where they put their keys. 2 Good at mental calculation (assess what-ifs quickly).3 Powerful work ethic. Different kinds of people with different kinds of minds can make contributions. At the beginning of a project you might need someone with freewheeling imagination not constrained by facts. Later you want someone good at mental calculation. Many discoveries come from a temporary suspension of facts or common sense, which some people are good at. A person good at mental calculation may not be. Here is a classic example: Q: How do you reduce pollution in rivers from factories? A: You mandate that all factories must be built downstream to themselves. This makes no sense at first glance but it is a practical idea that has been widely implemented. It means the water inlet pipe for a factory must be placed below the water outlet pipe. You don't have to put the entire factory downstream of itself, just part of it. Work ethic is good but some people get their best ideas half-asleep. There is a story of Henry Ford. He brought an efficiency expert into his factory who spent a few weeks looking around and talking to people. The expert came into Ford's office and said: I have met all of your staff and I impressed with everyone except for that fellow at the end of the hall. Every time I see him, he has his feet up on the desk, his hands behind his head and he's gazing up into space. He doesn't seem to do any work. Ford said, leave him alone, he once saved me a million dollars when he had his feet up on the desk like that. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
It is more than remotely possible - that if the HotCat reactor is ceramic and not steel, that at least the inner capsule could be influenced by a special waveform - and that explains why Rossi does not want it to be known. not so much that it is HIS trade secret, but that he borrowed the idea from Energetics. Good point - Daniel. After all, the Superwave concept does have merit on its own. Dardik's book is highly recommended (on Amazon) Dardik is another one of those characters with a checkered past, but who is a great inventor, nevertheless. Jones From: Jed Rothwell Daniel Rocha wrote: Has energetics technology ever achieved any success? Yes, they have many positive experiments, confirmed by Duncan and others. See, for example: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIultrasonic.pdf - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Levi hot-cat paper means squat
Rational people? You mean Cold Fusion skeptics? The ones who avoid admitting that a conspiracy is now necessary to support their disbelief? As for government related conspiracies, I have three questions: 1) does the government commonly lie? 2) does the government wish to retain control and power over their respective masses? 3) does the government have the means to effectively distract, mislead, suppress or kill anyone who attempts to expose the facts about #1? I rest my case.
Re: [Vo]:Levi hot-cat paper means squat
Squat is a good, see: http://crossfitbattlefield.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/squat-not-squat.jpg See how you can do squat about cold fusion: http://wpfpowerlifting.com/WPF%20DOCS/SquatDepth.PNG -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Levi hot-cat paper means squat
Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: 1) does the government commonly lie? No, it seldom lies, and usually only with regard to obscure or unimportant things, because larger lies are discovered by the press or the party out of power. The government lives in a glass house. Corporations find it much easier to lie. 2) does the government wish to retain control and power over their respective masses? No. 3) does the government have the means to effectively distract, mislead, suppress or kill anyone who attempts to expose the facts about #1? It sometimes thinks it does, but it usually botches such attempts. See, for example, the Daniel Ellsberg case, and Watergate, and recent scandals at the IRS. I have known many people who worked for the government, and also three members of congress. They told me that no secret in Washington DC stays secret longer than fifteen minutes. Gossip and secrets are the coin of the realm. Like any coins they are useless unless spent. During the pursuit of Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora, one of the most valuable military secrets was that he and other terrorists were being tracked by cell phone. This was revealed within a few days by gung ho members of the Bush administration who wanted credit for their military prowess. Naturally, bin Laden and the others learned of it within hours, and the technique was defunct. My late father was involved in military intelligence during and after WWII. He said the US ability to conduct secret operations and to keep secrets was abysmal then and after. Recent history seems to bear this out. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no? Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel. End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both a faraday cage to shield outside EM, and to complete a magnetic flux circuit which channels the flux from internal permanent mags. Since stainless is only about 50% Fe, a mag fld should penetrate it, but due to its electrical conductivity, an E-fld would not. In that case, is he using magnetic properties to help control the reaction? Is it causing alignment of grains, or forcing dipole oscillations to be aligned? -Mark From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 7:31 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Robert Lynn wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. There is still confusion on that point. From Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing -of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/ They described the E-Cat HT as a cylinder having a silicon nitride ceramic outer shell, 33 cm in length, and 10 cm in diameter. A second cylinder made of a different ceramic material (corundum) was located within the shell... It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?
RE: [Vo]:Levi hot-cat paper means squat
1) does the government commonly lie? No, it seldom lies, and usually only with regard to obscure or unimportant things, because larger lies are discovered by the press or the party out of power. ROTFLMAO! If they were obscure or unimportant, there would be no reason to lie, would there? And if caught in a lie - so what? What are the people going to do about it? They have no real choice in the matter - as with TODAY'S revelation that banking legislation was written word for word, by Citibank and handed to Congress to be voted in ( which it was). The public knows that bankers commit fraud but not a single one of the big bankers responsible has gone to jail ( The Untouchables - on PBS Frontline last week). I clearly recall the 2008 primary campaign in which Obama's staff rather explicitly admitted that his promises about NAFTA and more were just lies. The press made nothing of it. There is no real accountability in this and never has been. A former US Senator (D-Moynihan) tried to force Congress to actually read the bills they voted on. He was laughed at. My Congressman told me before he retired that the members who craft tax legislation can't do their own tax returns. It was shown in a study some years ago that , in any random group, the person who emerges as leader is also the most effective liar. Explains Clinton over Bush, Reagan over Mondale, and Obama over Romney. 2) does the government wish to retain control and power over their respective masses? No. Police forces, Gulags, tear gas, selective prosecutions, the Drug war, Federal prisons, gun control laws, spying on the press - I think I just ran out of bandwidth.. Can I get some of what you're smoking? 3) does the government have the means to effectively distract, mislead, suppress or kill anyone who attempts to expose the facts about #1? There is a sign posted at the edge of Area 51. It says use of deadly force authorized in the context of trespassing. Any other questions? My late father was involved in military intelligence during and after WWII. He said the US ability to conduct secret operations and to keep secrets was abysmal then and after. Recent history seems to bear this out. What, like the Manhattan project? And the city it created? Did the UK have the Ultra/Enigma code? Did the US have the Japanese Purple code? How many years did it take for the full story of the Dine' codetalkers to come out? Was Hitler fooled by careful British deception about the Normandy invasion being a fake thrust? That an entire bogus army was created in the UK? How many hours do you have? I can go on. -
Re: [Vo]:Levi Hot Cat paper is a gem : power conditioner needed
So to continue this line of arithmetic, we have a factor of 10 gain to explain. First of all let's get rid of the Stefan Boltzmann amplification of error by taking the fourth root of 10: 10^(1/4) = 1.7782794 That means if we're looking for error as the source of the gain, we have to plausibly argue an error of 78% in the portion of the IR camera's calibration for Wein's displacement proportionality. Note, it is a proportionality -- a straight linear proportionality -- because we have removed the Stefan Boltzmann fourth power from the equation. Wein's displacement is an approximation of the Plank curve most accurate at higher frequencies -- where photons have higher energy. So if we're looking for errors in power measurement, we need to be most concerned about frequencies below the IR. The problem for those of us who want to find error in the measure is that the peak is in the camera's physical sensor bandwidth where we aren't extrapolating -- and the most likely source of error is in an area of the spectrum that not only has lower luminosity but lower energy per photon. Again, I've never seen one of these emotionally committed skeptics do so much as the simple arithmetic to come up with the factor of 10 figure for the November test let alone the 78% that results from discounting Stefan Boltzmann's sensitivity to error, let alone proceed from there to do the arithmetic to estimate what appears to be an insignificant residual error in the sensor's calibration software. That's why I laugh these people off. There's no point blather with people who refuse to do arithmetic regarding the strongest argument of their opponents. On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 2:39 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: I found the major error: The peak wavelength is in the infrared -- as it is with the sun -- and I intuitively thought that the fact that much of the surface was bright red thru yellow meant my picking dull red (700nm) was conservative. This then fed via Wien's law proportionately into the fourth power of Stefan Boltzmann's law to produce the 2MW. This arose because I simply neglected to go to the next page after page 2 -- where Figure 3 shows the temperature as 793C or 1066K. Recalculating from the substitution for Th: q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(1291304958736-Tc^4) ; subst(1066, Th) q=3084.152246988637*pi ; subst(289, Tc) q=9689W On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:58 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: I can't resist: What power level is required to get that device to barely enter the visible wavelengths (700nm), again, assuming no losses other than black body? again using http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpwien/wien_equation_t.php at 700nm: blackbody temperature (T) = 4139.6692857143 kelvin q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(2.9367203218388994*10^14-Tc^4) ; subst(4139.6692857143, Th) q=705199.0585641474*pi q=2.2154481E6W Yeah, Rossi had a really high frequency power supply pumping even 1/10th of that into the E-Cat HT. On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:40 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: One final erratum (hopefully): In the November run when the device overheated to visible wavelengths, the input power was 1kW (p2), not 360W. Therefore: 360=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-6975757441) 1000=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-6975757441) ; subst(1000, 360) Th=(59549289748750/pi+997533314063)^(1/4)/143^(1/4) ; solve(Th) Th=611.17587 Kelvin Th=338.026 Celsius using: http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpwien/wien_equation.php peak emission wavelength (λmax) = 4.741300568689E-6 meter Still deep into the infrared. On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:59 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: Erratum: I also left out the substitution step for room temperature: 360=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-6975757441) ; subst(289) On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:53 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: Erratum: Strike the So, what... On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:53 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: q=eps*s*(Th^4-Tc^4)*A q=eps*(2*pi*r^2+2*l*pi*r)*s*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(2*pi*r^2+2*l*pi*r, A) q=5.6703*10^-8*eps*(2*pi*r^2+2*l*pi*r)*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(5.6703e-8, s) q=5.6703*10^-8*eps*(0.11*l*pi+0.00605*pi)*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(.055, r) q=2.40137205*10^-9*eps*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(.33, l) q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(1, eps) 360=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(360, q) Th=(21437744309550/pi+997533314063)^(1/4)/143^(1/4) ; solve(Th) Th=483.6006 Kelvin Th=210.451 Celsius using: http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpwien/wien_equation.php peak emission wavelength (λmax) = 5.9920696955297E-6 meter or 6 micrometers That is with no losses other than black body radiation (ie: no convective losses). That is way into the infrared. The excursions into the visible wavelength occurred with 360W. So, what On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: James
Re: [Vo]:Levi hot-cat paper means squat
From the experience of me and my beloved NGO lobbyist the NGO are not different from corporation... Note also that the ethic of sympathetic fashion corporation/NGO is often the worst since they are seldom criticized... eg: Greenpeace is know for many affaire of blatant lies that would have put exxon or Areva boss in jail. eg2: the worst tax-optimizers upon earth are sympathetic companies like google, apple, starbuck... if you want to find liars and crooks, search where there are institution you trust really, people hard to be criticized, with journalist sympathy, owning some uncriticizable moral value... Majority or victimized religious organization are not to be forgotten, but they are simply NGO in my classification. 2013/5/24 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: 1) does the government commonly lie? No, it seldom lies, and usually only with regard to obscure or unimportant things, because larger lies are discovered by the press or the party out of power. The government lives in a glass house. Corporations find it much easier to lie. 2) does the government wish to retain control and power over their respective masses? No. 3) does the government have the means to effectively distract, mislead, suppress or kill anyone who attempts to expose the facts about #1? It sometimes thinks it does, but it usually botches such attempts. See, for example, the Daniel Ellsberg case, and Watergate, and recent scandals at the IRS. I have known many people who worked for the government, and also three members of congress. They told me that no secret in Washington DC stays secret longer than fifteen minutes. Gossip and secrets are the coin of the realm. Like any coins they are useless unless spent. During the pursuit of Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora, one of the most valuable military secrets was that he and other terrorists were being tracked by cell phone. This was revealed within a few days by gung ho members of the Bush administration who wanted credit for their military prowess. Naturally, bin Laden and the others learned of it within hours, and the technique was defunct. My late father was involved in military intelligence during and after WWII. He said the US ability to conduct secret operations and to keep secrets was abysmal then and after. Recent history seems to bear this out. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Mark, In the end - it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a trade secret per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. Would you agree? SS spec sheet: http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S- 314.pdf From: MarkI-ZeroPoint It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no? Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel. End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both a faraday cage to shield outside EM, and to complete a magnetic flux circuit which channels the flux from internal permanent mags. Since stainless is only about 50% Fe, a mag fld should penetrate it, but due to its electrical conductivity, an E-fld would not. In that case, is he using magnetic properties to help control the reaction? Is it causing alignment of grains, or forcing dipole oscillations to be aligned? -Mark From: Jones Beene Robert Lynn wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. There is still confusion on that point. From Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing -of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/ They described the E-Cat HT as a cylinder having a silicon nitride ceramic outer shell, 33 cm in length, and 10 cm in diameter. A second cylinder made of a different ceramic material (corundum) was located within the shell... It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?
RE: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the material to a temperature that allows the heat producing rate in the NAE to start to self-heat. He then turns off the external heat source and the resulting temperature, which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool. This process is repeated. A waveform of applied power is chosen to make this process as efficient as possible. Regardless of which theory a person wishes to apply, this description must be acknowledged because it is based on engineering principles, not on a theory of LENR. Ed Storms
RE: [Vo]:Levi hot-cat paper means squat
Welcome to Rashomon and the 'quicksilver nature of truth'.
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Looks like Dardik's superwave tech is an application - not a granted patent http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardik http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardikei=LJufUbH wM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en ei=LJufUbHwM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en Mark, In the end - it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a trade secret per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. Would you agree? SS spec sheet: http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S- 314.pdf From: MarkI-ZeroPoint It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no? Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel. End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both a faraday cage to shield outside EM, and to complete a magnetic flux circuit which channels the flux from internal permanent mags. Since stainless is only about 50% Fe, a mag fld should penetrate it, but due to its electrical conductivity, an E-fld would not. In that case, is he using magnetic properties to help control the reaction? Is it causing alignment of grains, or forcing dipole oscillations to be aligned? -Mark From: Jones Beene Robert Lynn wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. There is still confusion on that point. From Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing -of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/ They described the E-Cat HT as a cylinder having a silicon nitride ceramic outer shell, 33 cm in length, and 10 cm in diameter. A second cylinder made of a different ceramic material (corundum) was located within the shell... It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the material to a temperature that allows the heat producing rate in the NAE to start to self-heat. He then turns off the external heat source and the resulting temperature, which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool. This process is repeated. A waveform of applied power is chosen to make this process as efficient as possible. Regardless of which theory a person wishes to apply, this description must be acknowledged because it is based on engineering principles, not on a theory of LENR. Ed Storms
[Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? : Magic Tricks!
I propose a simple design for a Rossi controller: A diode in series with the resistor. This will draw a small AC component at 60Hz, combined with a large DC component. So any kind of power meter using clamp on ammeters will register some power, but nowhere near the full power consumed. Simply short out the diode for the calibration run, and voila. Rossi does not need to know the exact type of power meter to be used in advance. I should point out that this design is not original. At Cambridge University Engineering Department, as undergraduates we were shown a baffling demo of two light bulbs in series. If you unscrewed one bulb, the other one still worked! It was built using thick copper wire on a plexiglass base, very baffling. It was done using concealed diodes in the light fixtures and also in the bulbs themselves. A 'scope would have given the game away immediately, but of course one didn't happen to be available. They liked to train us for real-world scenarios such as this one! Here is a light bulb illusion on YouTube, not quite as good (no plexiglass, unfortunately) but better showmanship and nice music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkfdN3QfQIY I should also point out that the guy on You Tube calls it a Light Bulb Trick, qualifying himself as an illusionist. Anybody claiming that the effect is real would, of course, be a charlatan. Challenge: Can anybody perform this trick using a plexiglass base, solid copper wire connections, and a glass table? Duncan On 5/24/2013 1:00 AM, Robert Lynn wrote: This has only just occurred to me, but in my mind is a bit of a red flag: The reactor vessel is a sealed metal container, no electrical or magnetic signal of any frequency will penetrate it (It is a faraday cage). And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. All of these configurational details were revealed to the testers by Rossi. So why did Rossi feel the need to prevent detailed analysis of the input power to these resistors that are no more than resistive heaters? We know he ran it in at least a partially pulsed 35% on 65% off mode with period of about 6 minutes from the thermography. So what possible harm could have come from allowing continuous measurement of voltage drop and current flow through the resistors? As such preventing that measurement serves no sensible purpose that I, or any other engineer/scientist could see, it is a pointless obfuscation. All it achieves is raising suspicion about just what electrical power is really flowing through those resistors.
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Well, it certainly has many properties that make it a good candidate to house the core, so is it just a coincidence that it also happens to be non-magnetic, and what’s inside is ferromagnetic… You know what they say about coincidences! ;-) The electrical resistivity units I do not recognize; it’s usually reported in Ω⋅m (Ohm*m)… Still intrigued by your revelations about ~300eV… you put some puzzle pieces together and there seems to be a picture developing. Hope you continue to travel down that path, Sherlock! -Mark Iverson From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 9:35 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Mark, In the end – it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a “trade secret” per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. Would you agree? SS spec sheet: http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S-314.pdf From: MarkI-ZeroPoint “It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?” Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: “The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel.” End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both a faraday cage to shield outside EM, and to complete a magnetic flux circuit which channels the flux from internal permanent mags. Since stainless is only about 50% Fe, a mag fld should penetrate it, but due to its electrical conductivity, an E-fld would not. In that case, is he using magnetic properties to help control the reaction? Is it causing alignment of grains, or forcing dipole oscillations to be aligned? -Mark From: Jones Beene Robert Lynn wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. There is still confusion on that point. From Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing-of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/ They described the E-Cat HT as a cylinder having a silicon nitride ceramic outer shell, 33 cm in length, and 10 cm in diameter. A second cylinder made of a different ceramic material (corundum) was located within the shell... It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no? image001.png
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or promote the reaction, also Rossi has claimed in past to have it running using gas heating. Rossi's setup only allows for heat to get in. The skin depth of the 3mm thick SS vessel will exclude all fields above probably about 100-200Hz entirely, and will greatly attenuate lower frequencies as well (DC would get through) but the surrounding magnetic fields in the resistors themselves are very weak anyway. (not that many turns). If he wanted or needed magnetic fields to penetrate the reactor then he would not be using spiral wound resistors arrayed around the reactor vessel, he would have a coil wound around the reactor vessel. As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. On 24 May 2013 17:56, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Looks like Dardik’s superwave tech is an application – not a granted patent ** ** http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardikei=LJufUbHwM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en ** ** ** ** Mark, ** ** In the end – it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a “trade secret” per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. ** ** ** ** Would you agree? ** ** SS spec sheet: ** ** http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S-314.pdf ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* MarkI-ZeroPoint ** ** “It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?” Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. ** ** An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: ** ** “The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel.” ** ** End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 ** ** For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both a faraday cage to shield outside EM, and to complete a magnetic flux circuit which channels the flux from internal permanent mags. ** ** Since stainless is only about 50% Fe, a mag fld should penetrate it, but due to its electrical conductivity, an E-fld would not. In that case, is he using magnetic properties to help control the reaction? Is it causing alignment of grains, or forcing dipole oscillations to be aligned? ** ** -Mark ** ** ** ** *From:* Jones Beene ** ** Robert Lynn wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. ** ** ** ** There is still confusion on that point. From Forbes article: ** ** http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing-of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/ ** ** They described the E-Cat HT as a cylinder having a silicon nitride ceramic outer shell, 33 cm in length, and 10 cm in diameter. A second cylinder made of a different ceramic material (corundum) was located within the shell... ** ** It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?
RE: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
Ed, I will happily concede your point once the ash is found on a scale approaching the energy released..but I was under the impression that to date the amount of ash found in these anomalous heat claims has always been of trivial amounts..am I wrong? perhaps they haven't looked hard enough but perhaps also it just isn't there in sufficient quantity... what is your take on the claims of cu ash for the Rossi device? If that ash is confirmed it would be more of a transformation than fusion... My own theory remains ZPE even more so now that radiation shielding has been eliminated from this latest experiment. I think that like the MAHG the device exploits changes in state between H and H2 while diffusion is stimulated resulting in a discount of the disassociation threshold that exceeds OU and tries to runaway- heat depleting the H2 reservoir until diffusion outward allows cooling enough to reassociate.. and like the MAHG very susceptible to self destruction. Whether just a bootstrap mechanism to the nuclear processes others are suggesting or the predominate contributor I remain undecided but I am convinced atomic forms of hydrogen recombining to molecular forms are at the heart of this anomaly. Langmuir proved that this procedure can even melt tungsten with arcing electrodes in open air [atomic welding], and when you consider this happening inside a catalyst like Rayney nickel or these Ni powders where resistive heating is used to bring the molecules closer to disassociation... can almost see the runaway reaction as H2 reforms, giving off more heat then we used from resistors to disassociate .. My theory being that diffusion through the catalyst region [tapestry of different suppression values] discounts the disassociation level based on how different the suppression level is from the level at which H2 molecule formed. Fractional hydrogen or hydrinos or relativistic hydrogen or super catalytic action are all names for this same effect. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 1:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the material to a temperature that allows the heat producing rate in the NAE to start to
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the material to a temperature that allows the heat producing rate in the NAE to start to self-heat. He then turns off the external heat source and the resulting temperature, which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool. This process is repeated. A waveform of applied power is chosen to make this process as efficient as possible. Regardless of which theory a person wishes to apply, this description must be acknowledged because it is based on engineering principles, not on a theory of LENR. Ed Storms
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the material to a temperature that allows the heat producing rate in the NAE to start to self-heat. He then turns off the external heat source and the resulting temperature, which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool. This process is repeated. A waveform of applied power is chosen to make this process as efficient as possible. Regardless of which theory a person wishes to apply, this description must be acknowledged because it is based on engineering principles, not on a theory of LENR. Ed Storms
RE: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
Axil, I doubt the reactor works very long in the liquid state, My guess is a short lived plastic state where the NAE is melting closed allows the runaway to skyrocket briefly- melting the ceramic while itself going molten and then just sitting there radiating away it's heat from a molten surface into the ceramic. Fran From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 2:12 PM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.commailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.commailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.commailto:c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.commailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the material to a temperature that allows the heat producing rate in the NAE to start to self-heat. He then turns off the external heat source and the resulting temperature, which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool. This process is repeated. A waveform of applied power is chosen to make this process as efficient as possible. Regardless of which theory a person wishes to apply, this description must be acknowledged because it is based on engineering principles, not on a theory of LENR. Ed Storms
Re: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
On May 24, 2013, at 12:10 PM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, I will happily concede your point once the ash is found on a scale approaching the energy released..but I was under the impression that to date the amount of ash found in these anomalous heat claims has always been of trivial amounts..am I wrong? Fran, the amount of helium has been found to be correlated with the amount of heat. The amount of tritium is always too small to make detectable energy. Nevertheless, it can only result from a fusion reaction. perhaps they haven't looked hard enough but perhaps also it just isn't there in sufficient quantity... what is your take on the claims of cu ash for the Rossi device? I do not believe Cu can be produced from Ni+p transmutation and I have been saying this for years. This claim makes no sense and has no credible support. I have proposed the heat results from deuterium production, which I'm trying to get people to look for. If that ash is confirmed it would be more of a transformation than fusion... My own theory remains ZPE even more so now that radiation shielding has been eliminated from this latest experiment. I and several people have seen radiation emitted when hydrogen is used. This radiation normally has such low energy, it does not escape from the apparatus. Rossi apparently stimulated a reaction that produced significant radiation at one time, but this probably had no relationship to what produces the steady heat. A person has to be careful not to relate apples and oranges. I think that like the MAHG the device exploits changes in state between H and H2 while diffusion is stimulated resulting in a discount of the disassociation threshold that exceeds OU and tries to runaway- heat depleting the H2 reservoir until diffusion outward allows cooling enough to reassociate.. and like the MAHG very susceptible to self destruction. Whether just a bootstrap mechanism to the nuclear processes others are suggesting or the predominate contributor I remain undecided but I am convinced atomic forms of hydrogen recombining to molecular forms are at the heart of this anomaly. Fran, do you understand what you are saying? You are proposing a simple, well understood chemical reaction can initiate a nuclear reaction. We know for a fact that simply heating a material to high temperatures will not initiate a nuclear reaction. In order to initiate a nuclear reaction, billions of degrees are required, which can only exist in plasma, not in a solid material. You need to consider what is real, not what you imagine. Ed Storms Langmuir proved that this procedure can even melt tungsten with arcing electrodes in open air [atomic welding], and when you consider this happening inside a catalyst like Rayney nickel or these Ni powders where resistive heating is used to bring the molecules closer to disassociation... can almost see the runaway reaction as H2 reforms, giving off more heat then we used from resistors to disassociate .. My theory being that diffusion through the catalyst region [tapestry of different suppression values] discounts the disassociation level based on how different the suppression level is from the level at which H2 molecule formed. Fractional hydrogen or hydrinos or relativistic hydrogen or super catalytic action are all names for this same effect. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 1:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C.
RE: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
Axil, After rereading your post I may have shot myself in the foot since I do agree with some but not all of your conclusions.. I do agree that [snip] The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. [/snip] my only point was that the solid geometry will try to relieve the suppression when it melts – one of the reasons skeletal cats are built in 2 stages with the softer alloy leached out while the higher melt temp nickel opposes the induced suppression as well as melting to form Rayney nickel. Your analysis does support sonofusion and plasma engines. Fran From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 2:18 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.commailto:janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.commailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.commailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.commailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.commailto:c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.commailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the material to a temperature that allows the heat producing rate in the NAE to start to self-heat. He then turns off the
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Well, Mark - there is one more detail about the 300 eV value which could also be coincidental … or not. Less than a month ago we talked about serendipity and hexavalency. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg78698.html … and now it turns out that the release of 6 electrons from Nickel will provide the 300 eV Millsean energy “hole” which is necessary to force hydrogen into deep redundancy. It may be “all Greek” to some vorticians but “hexa” does imply the magic number here since that is where the Rydberg value lines up almost exactly.. Nickel has 10 valence electrons and taking 6 of them all at once seems unlikely – but what about the situation where there is a chemical see-saw in which 6 electrons move back-and-forth at a rapid resonant rate and the on occasion, this allows hydrogen to be forced into this kind of redundancy. From: MarkI-ZeroPoint Well, it certainly has many properties that make it a good candidate to house the core, so is it just a coincidence that it also happens to be non-magnetic, and what’s inside is ferromagnetic… You know what they say about coincidences! ;-) The electrical resistivity units I do not recognize; it’s usually reported in Ω⋅m (Ohm*m)… Still intrigued by your revelations about ~300eV… you put some puzzle pieces together and there seems to be a picture developing. Hope you continue to travel down that path, Sherlock! -Mark Iverson From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 9:35 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Mark, In the end – it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a “trade secret” per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. Would you agree? SS spec sheet: http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S-314.pdf From: MarkI-ZeroPoint “It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?” Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: “The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel.” End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both a faraday cage to shield outside EM, and to complete a magnetic flux circuit which channels the flux from internal permanent mags. Since stainless is only about 50% Fe, a mag fld should penetrate it, but due to its electrical conductivity, an E-fld would not. In that case, is he using magnetic properties to help control the reaction? Is it causing alignment of grains, or forcing dipole oscillations to be aligned? -Mark From: Jones Beene Robert Lynn wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. There is still confusion on that point. From Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing-of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/ They described the E-Cat HT as a cylinder having a silicon nitride ceramic outer shell, 33 cm in length, and 10 cm in diameter. A second cylinder made of a different ceramic material (corundum) was located within the shell... It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no? image001.png
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
The temperature difference between the melting point of stainless steel and ceramic is 600 degrees C. To produce this temperature difference beyond the melting point of nickel powder and stainless steel requires a continuing LENR reaction, IMHO. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Axil, I doubt the reactor works very long in the liquid state, My guess is a short lived plastic state where the NAE is melting closed allows the runaway to skyrocket briefly- melting the ceramic while itself going molten and then just sitting there radiating away it’s heat from a molten surface into the ceramic. Fran ** ** *From:* Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 2:12 PM *To:* vortex-l *Subject:* Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test ** ** The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded.* *** LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. ** ** On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the material to a temperature that allows the heat producing rate in the NAE to start to self-heat. He then turns off the external heat source and the resulting temperature, which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool. This process is repeated. A waveform of applied power is chosen to make this process as efficient as possible. Regardless of which theory a person wishes to apply, this description must be acknowledged because it is
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the material to a temperature that allows the heat producing rate in the NAE to start to self-heat. He then turns off the external heat source and the resulting temperature, which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool. This process is repeated. A waveform of applied power is chosen to make this process as efficient as possible. Regardless of which theory a person wishes to apply, this description
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
LENR can occur in exploding metal foils and electric arks. LENR is a singular process that depends on one basic mechanism. In a reactor meltdown, the mechanism of the LENR reaction transitions from one form supported by and associated state of matter into another state supported by a different collection of matter in a different state. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling processes, one is exothermic and the other is endothermic. Control requires a balance be created between the two. This balance uses diffusion as the control mechanism. He heats the
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
There does seem to be a little extra speculation about this particular measurement. Ed, the long term tests reached 800 plus degrees which makes one wonder whether or not the fine powder would melt under those conditions. Do the NEA that you envision keep their active form at that elevated temperature? Dave -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:38 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be subject to control. To effectively solve the control problem, Rossi has maximized thermal contact between the NAE in the Ni and a source of temperature, which is the heaters. He has to apply power because the NAE in the NI has to cool rapidly once the LENR process tries to grow in intensity by getting hotter as a result of its own heat production. In other words, the effect involves two rate controlling
Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet...
Sunil, May I quote you in a Forbes posting? If I may, may I cite your name? Thanks in advance. Yours, Mark Gibbs. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Sunil Shah s.u.n@hotmail.com wrote: Hi All, My first post, after a couple of year's hiding in the shadows.. Just want to settle a couple of things. Torbjörn Hartman's personal merits (as listed at http://katalog.uu.se/empInfo?id=N96-5170) state Dr.Med.vet., civ.ing.. Assuming the line is written in Swedish (which it is, trust me : ), it says: Doktor i Medicinsk Vetenskap, Civilingenjör. These translate into English as: PhD Medical Science, MSc. So, my guess is he did an MSc in Engineering Physics (5 yrs) followed by research/studies in medicine. CivIng does NOT mean Civil Engineer in Sweden. It covers ALL higher level engineering science paths, that lead to a Master's level degree, and are 4-5 years long. The traditional paths being ChemEng, EE, Eng Physics, Computer Science and _Civil_Engineering_ I am bilingual (Swedish/English) and did Engineering Physics (MSc) : ) /Sunil
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Robert, I agree to the extent that the emphasis should be on what is significant. Yes natural gas has been used according to AR - so only the heat is absolutely necessary -- but an additional EM resonance, even if it is from eddy currents, could be helpful to maintain control. It is not either/or. Here is kind of the reverse situation where eddy currents are actually used in leak detection of SS. http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/ms-5800-tube-inspection/ . And also - in the images I saw - the resistor wires are spiral wound around each other so there could be more magnetic field than expected. Maybe Dave will run a sim on this in spice. Jones From: Robert Lynn To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or promote the reaction, also Rossi has claimed in past to have it running using gas heating. Rossi's setup only allows for heat to get in. The skin depth of the 3mm thick SS vessel will exclude all fields above probably about 100-200Hz entirely, and will greatly attenuate lower frequencies as well (DC would get through) but the surrounding magnetic fields in the resistors themselves are very weak anyway. (not that many turns). If he wanted or needed magnetic fields to penetrate the reactor then he would not be using spiral wound resistors arrayed around the reactor vessel, he would have a coil wound around the reactor vessel. As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. On 24 May 2013 17:56, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Looks like Dardik's superwave tech is an application - not a granted patent http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardik http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardikei=LJufUbH wM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en ei=LJufUbHwM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en Mark, In the end - it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a trade secret per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. Would you agree? SS spec sheet: http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S- 314.pdf From: MarkI-ZeroPoint It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no? Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel. End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both a faraday cage to shield outside EM, and to complete a magnetic flux circuit which channels the flux from internal permanent mags. Since stainless is only about 50% Fe, a mag fld should penetrate it, but due to its electrical conductivity, an E-fld would not. In that case, is he using magnetic properties to help control the reaction? Is it causing alignment of grains, or forcing dipole oscillations to be aligned? -Mark From: Jones Beene Robert Lynn wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. There is still confusion on that point. From Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing -of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/ They described the E-Cat HT as a cylinder having a silicon nitride ceramic outer shell, 33 cm in length, and 10 cm in diameter. A second cylinder made of a different ceramic material (corundum) was located within the shell... It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?
[Vo]: Protons and Gammas
Earlier I was curious about electrons and how they might interact with photons. The final conclusion was that they can not originate photons without outside help and that they cannot totally absorb them. The Compton effect allows them to interact, but there must always be a photon leaving the site. I suspect that the same applies to a bare proton and an incoming gamma. Does anyone know of a condition where this is not true? Can a system consisting of entangled protons absorb gammas? The answer should be yes. Dave
RE: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet...
Hi Mark, Hehe, yes to both, I suppose, though as stated I am guessing at what he actually studied. (Could ask him I suppose.) I found these, btw (after I posted, I swear!) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._med._vet. and http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilingenj%C3%B6r .. so it's ALL *facts* : D /Sunil From: mgi...@gibbs.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 11:50:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sunil, May I quote you in a Forbes posting? If I may, may I cite your name? Thanks in advance. Yours, Mark Gibbs. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Sunil Shah s.u.n@hotmail.com wrote: Hi All, My first post, after a couple of year's hiding in the shadows.. Just want to settle a couple of things. Torbjörn Hartman's personal merits (as listed at http://katalog.uu.se/empInfo?id=N96-5170) state Dr.Med.vet., civ.ing.. Assuming the line is written in Swedish (which it is, trust me : ), it says: Doktor i Medicinsk Vetenskap, Civilingenjör. These translate into English as: PhD Medical Science, MSc. So, my guess is he did an MSc in Engineering Physics (5 yrs) followed by research/studies in medicine. CivIng does NOT mean Civil Engineer in Sweden. It covers ALL higher level engineering science paths, that lead to a Master's level degree, and are 4-5 years long. The traditional paths being ChemEng, EE, Eng Physics, Computer Science and _Civil_Engineering_ I am bilingual (Swedish/English) and did Engineering Physics (MSc) : ) /Sunil
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
But, is there anything that can be gleaned from the anecdotal information of a hotCat melt-down? Something that strikes me is that if the heat was generated as phonons locally at the NAE, then the NAE would be the hottest part of the reactor. If a reactor melted, it would be with the NAE hotter than the melted reactor SS shell. This doesn't sound plausible as the NAE would not have been able to produce enough heat fast enough to cause the melt-down before it destroyed itself. So, evidence of a melt-down suggests to me that the energy transport from the NAE is not carried by phonons. On the other hand, now posit the NAE emitting a low energy photon or particle radiation that would be absorbed by the SS reactor shell. Now, it is possible that the reactor shell itself is hotter than the NAE and it may be possible to melt the reactor shell without necessarily destroying the NAE - at least early in the process. To me, this becomes anecdotal evidence of the energy being transported outside of the NAE and collected in its dense environs. The energy carrier could be low energy photons, beta, or alpha. If beta or alpha, might one expect to measure escaping bremsstrahlung radiation coming from the reactor? On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories.
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. . . . As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. And let me repeat myself. It is possible that the pattern of heating and cooling somehow triggers the reaction and this pattern is what Rossi is trying to hide. This pattern may not be complicated. Suppose it is simple. Suppose you heat the sample sharply at first, and then back off the input power. That is how Fleischmann and Pons triggered their boil off events. Even if it is simple, it is still worth a great deal of money if he can file a patent on it before the secret gets out. Fleischmann and Pons did not use RF at all. It was purely thermal stimulation. - Jed
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
On May 24, 2013, at 12:49 PM, David Roberson wrote: There does seem to be a little extra speculation about this particular measurement. Ed, the long term tests reached 800 plus degrees which makes one wonder whether or not the fine powder would melt under those conditions. Do the NEA that you envision keep their active form at that elevated temperature? David, I would not have expected the gaps to remain stable unless something was keeping them from closing. I now realize, thanks to Rossi, that the Hydroton has to be very stable in order to form and to be the structure in which fusion takes place. His work made the obvious visible. The problem I'm trying to avoid is wild speculation having no relationship to what is reported or to real science. Ed Storms Dave -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:38 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Thanks Fran. It's nice to get an occasional agreement :-) However, how do you propose to make helium and tritium from D and H by a process other than fusion? Of course, the process is not like hot fusion, but this does not remove another process that results in fusion as the mechanism. The W/L mechanism is the only current published theory that does not propose fusion, but this idea is so far from explaining any observation, it can be ignored. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Roarty, Francis X wrote: Ed, Good analysis and totally agree with your conclusions except for your description as a fusion process since that remains controversial would just call it an as yet undetermined process. [snip] , which allows the diffusion rate to drop enough to starve the fusion process of reactant and cool[/snip]. Fran -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:55 PM To: c...@googlegroups.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test A great deal of discussion has been generated by the Rossi test. I would liker to add my contribution. Rossi has demonstrated two very important behaviors of the effect. First, the effect can be initiated and sustained for a significant time at temperatures above 800° C. This means the NAE once formed is very stable. This degree of stability severely limits the theories that can be applied and eliminates most of the ones presently being explored. Second, he has shown that the effect can be effectively controlled by temperature. This means that one rate-controlling part of the process is endothermic. I have previously proposed that this part involves diffusion of H or D into the NAE. This suggestion is based on simple logic. The rate of the nuclear reaction is determined by how rapidly the reactants can assemble, which would be controlled by diffusion. Of course, once the reactants are assembled, the nucear reaction would be very fast and not be
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
On May 24, 2013, at 1:45 PM, Bob Higgins wrote: But, is there anything that can be gleaned from the anecdotal information of a hotCat melt-down? Something that strikes me is that if the heat was generated as phonons locally at the NAE, then the NAE would be the hottest part of the reactor. If a reactor melted, it would be with the NAE hotter than the melted reactor SS shell. This doesn't sound plausible as the NAE would not have been able to produce enough heat fast enough to cause the melt-down before it destroyed itself. So, evidence of a melt-down suggests to me that the energy transport from the NAE is not carried by phonons. I agree Bob. This is the reason why phonons cannot carry all the energy. In addition, photons are DETECTED. Therefore, they are being produced. Phonons cannot be detected. On the other hand, now posit the NAE emitting a low energy photon or particle radiation that would be absorbed by the SS reactor shell. Now, it is possible that the reactor shell itself is hotter than the NAE and it may be possible to melt the reactor shell without necessarily destroying the NAE - at least early in the process. Yes, photons will be absorbed throughout the apparatus, but most will be absorbed near the source because, on average, they have a short range in matter. To me, this becomes anecdotal evidence of the energy being transported outside of the NAE and collected in its dense environs. The energy carrier could be low energy photons, beta, or alpha. If beta or alpha, might one expect to measure escaping bremsstrahlung radiation coming from the reactor? I suggest further speculation is unwarranted because the required information is not reported. Ed Storms On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories.
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
From: Jed . It is possible that the pattern of heating and cooling somehow triggers the reaction and this pattern is what Rossi is trying to hide. That kind of thermal pulsation could also be accomplished with natural gas as the heat source. Many experimenters have notice a ratcheting effect in Ni-H, where there is gradual gain in increasing steps - which exceeds constant heat input. The steps can be fractional hertz (several seconds long). Jones
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
The conductivity of stainless steel is about the same as Nichrome.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity This means that the RF that Rossi is feeding into the reactor through the heating elements will get into the reaction chamber. He uses this RF to stimulate the production of nano-particles in the form of Rydberg matter. What is the purpose of the preparatory high frequencies pumped into the Rossi reaction chamber over the power lines? Explanation follows: http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview/transcription.htm Transcription of the Anniversary E-Cat Interview Regarding the Radio frequency generator. S. Also, while we are talking about the function of the technology, there is also been talk both from you and others about some kind of a frequency that is used to impose on the system, some kind of electromagnetic radio... some kind of vibrational frequency. Could you talk about that for a minute? A. I am very sorry. I am very sorry, but this is a confidential issue. Yes, we use... I can say you this... That we use a system that is similar to what happens in the martial arts, oriental martial arts. Sorry, my pronunciation is a bit shaky. The effect is based on the fact the forces that theoretically should fight against us, and I mean the Coulomb forces, are used to help us. This is the principle. And this is the issue. This effect is an effect where we have turned to our advantage what theoretically has to be to our disadvantage. That is all I can tell you my friend. The enticing clue for the disbelieving set is the proprietary radio frequency generator that has emissions to interact with the reactions inside of the core. Along with the catalysts this is information that will stay secret as long as possible. What did slip is Mr. Rossi compared the use of the radio frequencies to martial arts. Rossi explained that the radio frequency generator allows the forces that would normally prevent the fusion process from taking place (Coulomb forces) to work for you, and not against you. Rossi offers that the full theory of how the system works will be revealed, as he put it, “soon.” Reference: http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0607/0607193.pdf Precision bond lengths for Rydberg Matter clusters KN (N = 19, 37, 61 and 91) in excitation levels n = 4 - 8 from rotational radiofrequency emission spectra Clusters of the electronically excited condensed matter Rydberg Matter (RM) are planar and six-fold symmetric with magic numbers N = 7, 19, 37, 61 and 91. The bond distances in the clusters are known with a precision of ± 5% both from theory and Coulomb explosion experiments. Long series of up to 40 consecutive lines from rotational transitions in such clusters are now observed in emission in the radio-frequency range 7-90 MHz. The clusters are produced in five different vacuum chambers equipped with RM emitters. The RF is forming potassium clusters in the reaction chamber.. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. . . . As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. And let me repeat myself. It is possible that the pattern of heating and cooling somehow triggers the reaction and this pattern is what Rossi is trying to hide. This pattern may not be complicated. Suppose it is simple. Suppose you heat the sample sharply at first, and then back off the input power. That is how Fleischmann and Pons triggered their boil off events. Even if it is simple, it is still worth a great deal of money if he can file a patent on it before the secret gets out. Fleischmann and Pons did not use RF at all. It was purely thermal stimulation. - Jed
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
Would you believe that it is possible to melt tungsten (MP 3422 deg C) using only 10 watts? Try putting 10 watts into a 1 watt flashlight bulb. It will burn out immediately as the tungsten filament melts. No LENR reaction, just straight resistive heating. Power and temperature are not directly related, the temperature also depends on a host of other variables. A 110V plug-in arc welder can produce a plasma temperature of well over 6,000 deg C for only 2kW of power. Duncan On 5/24/2013 11:38 AM, Axil Axil wrote: The temperature difference between the melting point of stainless steel and ceramic is 600 degrees C. To produce this temperature difference beyond the melting point of nickel powder and stainless steel requires a continuing LENR reaction, IMHO.
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
This superfluid heat transfer process is evidence that there exists a state of global Boss-Einstein condensation throughout the Rossi reactor. In the same way as gamma radiation is thermalized and spread out throughout the volume of the reactor, heat is equally shared in the condensate thus making the entire volume of the reactor superfluid. Polariton condensation can exist at temperatures up to 2300C. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.comwrote: But, is there anything that can be gleaned from the anecdotal information of a hotCat melt-down? Something that strikes me is that if the heat was generated as phonons locally at the NAE, then the NAE would be the hottest part of the reactor. If a reactor melted, it would be with the NAE hotter than the melted reactor SS shell. This doesn't sound plausible as the NAE would not have been able to produce enough heat fast enough to cause the melt-down before it destroyed itself. So, evidence of a melt-down suggests to me that the energy transport from the NAE is not carried by phonons. On the other hand, now posit the NAE emitting a low energy photon or particle radiation that would be absorbed by the SS reactor shell. Now, it is possible that the reactor shell itself is hotter than the NAE and it may be possible to melt the reactor shell without necessarily destroying the NAE - at least early in the process. To me, this becomes anecdotal evidence of the energy being transported outside of the NAE and collected in its dense environs. The energy carrier could be low energy photons, beta, or alpha. If beta or alpha, might one expect to measure escaping bremsstrahlung radiation coming from the reactor? On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories.
Re: [Vo]:Levi Hot Cat paper is a gem : power conditioner needed
Erratum: luminosity should read photon flux On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 11:16 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: So to continue this line of arithmetic, we have a factor of 10 gain to explain. First of all let's get rid of the Stefan Boltzmann amplification of error by taking the fourth root of 10: 10^(1/4) = 1.7782794 That means if we're looking for error as the source of the gain, we have to plausibly argue an error of 78% in the portion of the IR camera's calibration for Wein's displacement proportionality. Note, it is a proportionality -- a straight linear proportionality -- because we have removed the Stefan Boltzmann fourth power from the equation. Wein's displacement is an approximation of the Plank curve most accurate at higher frequencies -- where photons have higher energy. So if we're looking for errors in power measurement, we need to be most concerned about frequencies below the IR. The problem for those of us who want to find error in the measure is that the peak is in the camera's physical sensor bandwidth where we aren't extrapolating -- and the most likely source of error is in an area of the spectrum that not only has lower luminosity but lower energy per photon. Again, I've never seen one of these emotionally committed skeptics do so much as the simple arithmetic to come up with the factor of 10 figure for the November test let alone the 78% that results from discounting Stefan Boltzmann's sensitivity to error, let alone proceed from there to do the arithmetic to estimate what appears to be an insignificant residual error in the sensor's calibration software. That's why I laugh these people off. There's no point blather with people who refuse to do arithmetic regarding the strongest argument of their opponents. On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 2:39 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: I found the major error: The peak wavelength is in the infrared -- as it is with the sun -- and I intuitively thought that the fact that much of the surface was bright red thru yellow meant my picking dull red (700nm) was conservative. This then fed via Wien's law proportionately into the fourth power of Stefan Boltzmann's law to produce the 2MW. This arose because I simply neglected to go to the next page after page 2 -- where Figure 3 shows the temperature as 793C or 1066K. Recalculating from the substitution for Th: q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(1291304958736-Tc^4) ; subst(1066, Th) q=3084.152246988637*pi ; subst(289, Tc) q=9689W On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:58 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: I can't resist: What power level is required to get that device to barely enter the visible wavelengths (700nm), again, assuming no losses other than black body? again using http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpwien/wien_equation_t.php at 700nm: blackbody temperature (T) = 4139.6692857143 kelvin q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(2.9367203218388994*10^14-Tc^4) ; subst(4139.6692857143, Th) q=705199.0585641474*pi q=2.2154481E6W Yeah, Rossi had a really high frequency power supply pumping even 1/10th of that into the E-Cat HT. On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:40 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: One final erratum (hopefully): In the November run when the device overheated to visible wavelengths, the input power was 1kW (p2), not 360W. Therefore: 360=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-6975757441) 1000=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-6975757441) ; subst(1000, 360) Th=(59549289748750/pi+997533314063)^(1/4)/143^(1/4) ; solve(Th) Th=611.17587 Kelvin Th=338.026 Celsius using: http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpwien/wien_equation.php peak emission wavelength (λmax) = 4.741300568689E-6 meter Still deep into the infrared. On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:59 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: Erratum: I also left out the substitution step for room temperature: 360=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-6975757441) ; subst(289) On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:53 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: Erratum: Strike the So, what... On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:53 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: q=eps*s*(Th^4-Tc^4)*A q=eps*(2*pi*r^2+2*l*pi*r)*s*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(2*pi*r^2+2*l*pi*r, A) q=5.6703*10^-8*eps*(2*pi*r^2+2*l*pi*r)*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(5.6703e-8, s) q=5.6703*10^-8*eps*(0.11*l*pi+0.00605*pi)*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(.055, r) q=2.40137205*10^-9*eps*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(.33, l) q=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(1, eps) 360=2.40137205*10^-9*pi*(Th^4-Tc^4) ; subst(360, q) Th=(21437744309550/pi+997533314063)^(1/4)/143^(1/4) ; solve(Th) Th=483.6006 Kelvin Th=210.451 Celsius using: http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpwien/wien_equation.php peak emission wavelength (λmax) = 5.9920696955297E-6 meter or 6 micrometers That is with no losses other than black body radiation (ie: no convective losses). That is way into the infrared. The excursions
Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet...
by the way, many people say Rossi is doctor in philosophy of science, but isn't it simply the original of PhD (Doctor in Philosophy) , or at least MsC (Engineer) ? 2013/5/24 Sunil Shah s.u.n@hotmail.com Hi Mark, Hehe, yes to both, I suppose, though as stated I am guessing at what he actually studied. (Could ask him I suppose.) I found these, btw (after I posted, I swear!) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._med._vet. and http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilingenj%C3%B6r .. so it's ALL *facts* : D /Sunil -- From: mgi...@gibbs.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 11:50:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sunil, May I quote you in a Forbes posting? If I may, may I cite your name? Thanks in advance. Yours, Mark Gibbs. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Sunil Shah s.u.n@hotmail.com wrote: Hi All, My first post, after a couple of year's hiding in the shadows.. Just want to settle a couple of things. Torbjörn Hartman's personal merits (as listed at http://katalog.uu.se/empInfo?id=N96-5170) state Dr.Med.vet., civ.ing.. Assuming the line is written in Swedish (which it is, trust me : ), it says: Doktor i Medicinsk Vetenskap, Civilingenjör. These translate into English as: PhD Medical Science, MSc. So, my guess is he did an MSc in Engineering Physics (5 yrs) followed by research/studies in medicine. CivIng does NOT mean Civil Engineer in Sweden. It covers ALL higher level engineering science paths, that lead to a Master's level degree, and are 4-5 years long. The traditional paths being ChemEng, EE, Eng Physics, Computer Science and _Civil_Engineering_ I am bilingual (Swedish/English) and did Engineering Physics (MSc) : ) /Sunil
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Mr. Lynn, You're a bit too quick on the trigger. Let me repeat myself, a *magnetic* field WILL penetrate most austenitic stainless steels. However, I know that a static mag-field is not the same as the magnetic component of an oscillating EM field, so I called a colleague who worked for Varian for 40 years, and who has a lot of magnetics expertise. He said that static, and possibly VLF, magnetic fields will penetrate nonmagnetic stainless steels, but that the magnetic component of EM waves of any significant frequency will probably not. Another consideration, and I think this was mentioned in the Collective two (or was it three) years ago right after Rossi's first January demonstration, is that when the electrical resistance heaters are energized (with DC), they will generate a mag-fld around them. This can probably be considered a static mag-field, and will likely penetrate the non-magnetic 310 stainless cylinder, so the internal core of the reactor may very well feel this PWM-modulated field. -Mark Iverson From: Robert Lynn [mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or promote the reaction, also Rossi has claimed in past to have it running using gas heating. Rossi's setup only allows for heat to get in. The skin depth of the 3mm thick SS vessel will exclude all fields above probably about 100-200Hz entirely, and will greatly attenuate lower frequencies as well (DC would get through) but the surrounding magnetic fields in the resistors themselves are very weak anyway. (not that many turns). If he wanted or needed magnetic fields to penetrate the reactor then he would not be using spiral wound resistors arrayed around the reactor vessel, he would have a coil wound around the reactor vessel. As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. On 24 May 2013 17:56, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Looks like Dardik's superwave tech is an application - not a granted patent http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardik http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardikei=LJufUbH wM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en ei=LJufUbHwM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en Mark, In the end - it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a trade secret per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. Would you agree? SS spec sheet: http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S- 314.pdf From: MarkI-ZeroPoint It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no? Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel. End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both a faraday cage to shield outside EM, and to complete a magnetic flux circuit which channels the flux from internal permanent mags. Since stainless is only about 50% Fe, a mag fld should penetrate it, but due to its electrical conductivity, an E-fld would not. In that case, is he using magnetic properties to help control the reaction? Is it causing alignment of grains, or forcing dipole oscillations to be aligned? -Mark From: Jones Beene Robert Lynn wrote: And all of the resistive heating elements are positioned around it, so they do nothing but deliver heat to the reactor contents - no special magnetic or electrical excitation can pass through the reactor vessel. There is still confusion on that point. From Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/20/finally-independent-testing -of-rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-device-maybe-the-world-will-change-after-all/ They described the E-Cat HT as a cylinder having a silicon nitride
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic
I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this may be what happened. A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned. Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic. The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to have NAEs still operable in liquid state! Ol' Bab, who was as engineer... On 5/24/2013 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com mailto:janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. SNIP
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic
The performance of this device was such that the reactor was destroyed, melting the internal steel cylinder and the surrounding ceramic layers. This info tells me that the inner secure reaction chamber and the surrounding ceramic core melted, but not the outer air cooled surrounding shell. *The reactor was not exposed to the air through a breach in the outer shell. * On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:21 PM, David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.comwrote: I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this may be what happened. A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned. Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic. The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to have NAEs still operable in liquid state! Ol' Bab, who was as engineer... On 5/24/2013 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. SNIP
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic
David, have you ever actually heated stainless steel. I suggest you take a spoon from your collection in the kitchen and heat it to red hot. You will find that the spoon will turn black but will not ignite. If you keep heating to a higher temperature, it will soften and bend, but will not ignite. So tell me, why would you suggest the stainless in the Rossi device would ignite? Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 3:21 PM, David L Babcock wrote: I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this may be what happened. A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned. Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic. The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to have NAEs still operable in liquid state! Ol' Bab, who was as engineer... On 5/24/2013 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. SNIP
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
A steady state magnetic field will penetrate the stainless steel. A time changing one will be attenuated as eddy currents induced within the metal generate a reverse field that counters the source field to an extent that depends upon the rate of change of that field. The metal thickness is also crucial to the ultimate level of shielding. Mark, as you say the changes in the PWM waveform that occur at a slow rate will find their way inside. I am not confident that this is a mechanism that Rossi uses, but it might have some effect. It appears strange that Rossi does not wish to reveal the resistor drive waveforms. Perhaps he is using a moderate frequency drive signal for some reason that we are unaware of, only he knows. One thing is obvious, he likes to keep us guessing. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 5:18 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Mr. Lynn, You’re a bit too quick on the trigger… Let me repeat myself, a *magnetic* field WILL penetrate most austenitic stainless steels. However, I know that a static mag-field is not the same as the magnetic component of an oscillating EM field, so I called a colleague who worked for Varian for 40 years, and who has a lot of magnetics expertise. He said that static, and possibly VLF, magnetic fields will penetrate nonmagnetic stainless steels, but that the magnetic component of EM waves of any significant frequency will probably not. Another consideration, and I think this was mentioned in the Collective two (or was it three) years ago right after Rossi’s first January demonstration, is that when the electrical resistance heaters are energized (with DC), they will generate a mag-fld around them. This can probably be considered a static mag-field, and will likely penetrate the non-magnetic 310 stainless cylinder, so the internal core of the reactor may very well feel this PWM-modulated field. -Mark Iverson From: Robert Lynn [mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or promote the reaction, also Rossi has claimed in past to have it running using gas heating. Rossi's setup only allows for heat to get in. The skin depth of the 3mm thick SS vessel will exclude all fields above probably about 100-200Hz entirely, and will greatly attenuate lower frequencies as well (DC would get through) but the surrounding magnetic fields in the resistors themselves are very weak anyway. (not that many turns). If he wanted or needed magnetic fields to penetrate the reactor then he would not be using spiral wound resistors arrayed around the reactor vessel, he would have a coil wound around the reactor vessel. As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. On 24 May 2013 17:56, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Looks like Dardik’s superwave tech is an application – not a granted patent http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardikei=LJufUbHwM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en Mark, In the end – it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a “trade secret” per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. Would you agree? SS spec sheet: http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S-314.pdf From: MarkI-ZeroPoint “It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?” Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: “The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel.” End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both a faraday cage to shield outside EM, and to complete a magnetic flux
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic
OK Axil, I presume from this description you assume ALL of the cylinder containing the Ni+H2 melted along with the surrounding ceramic, which in your mind meant the temperature got to and stayed abouve 2000° long enough to completely melt the stainless container and surrounding ceramic. Is this correct? Normally, a device making energy will be hotter in some regions than others. If the temperature gets too hot, the hottest point will melt, which in this case would allow all the H2 to leave. This would immediately stop the source of energy. Once this happens, were does the energy come from to melt the rest of the material? Actually, I expect a small; amount of liquid metal would contact the ceramic, lower its melting point, and produce a small amount of local melt. The description was not detailed enough to properly describe what actually happened. Until we see a picture of the melted region, what is the purpose of your speculation? Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Axil Axil wrote: The performance of this device was such that the reactor was destroyed, melting the internal steel cylinder and the surrounding ceramic layers. This info tells me that the inner secure reaction chamber and the surrounding ceramic core melted, but not the outer air cooled surrounding shell. The reactor was not exposed to the air through a breach in the outer shell. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:21 PM, David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.com wrote: I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this may be what happened. A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned. Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic. The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to have NAEs still operable in liquid state! Ol' Bab, who was as engineer... On 5/24/2013 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. SNIP
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Axils reference states: emission in the radio-frequency range 7-90 MHz. Well, 7 (40 meter band) to 90Mhz (~3 meters) is smack in the amateur radio (ham) bands: http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Hambands_color.pdf So, if anyone lives in the area of Rossis office, find and talk to the ham operators in the area and see if theyve been experiencing any significant interferences in the last few years! And on what bands? 0.5 J -Mark Iverson From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 1:07 PM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? The conductivity of stainless steel is about the same as Nichrome.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity This means that the RF that Rossi is feeding into the reactor through the heating elements will get into the reaction chamber. He uses this RF to stimulate the production of nano-particles in the form of Rydberg matter. What is the purpose of the preparatory high frequencies pumped into the Rossi reaction chamber over the power lines? Explanation follows: http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_ Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview/transcription.htm Transcription of the Anniversary E-Cat Interview Regarding the Radio frequency generator. S. Also, while we are talking about the function of the technology, there is also been talk both from you and others about some kind of a frequency that is used to impose on the system, some kind of electromagnetic radio... some kind of vibrational frequency. Could you talk about that for a minute? A. I am very sorry. I am very sorry, but this is a confidential issue. Yes, we use... I can say you this... That we use a system that is similar to what happens in the martial arts, oriental martial arts. Sorry, my pronunciation is a bit shaky. The effect is based on the fact the forces that theoretically should fight against us, and I mean the Coulomb forces, are used to help us. This is the principle. And this is the issue. This effect is an effect where we have turned to our advantage what theoretically has to be to our disadvantage. That is all I can tell you my friend. The enticing clue for the disbelieving set is the proprietary radio frequency generator that has emissions to interact with the reactions inside of the core. Along with the catalysts this is information that will stay secret as long as possible. What did slip is Mr. Rossi compared the use of the radio frequencies to martial arts. Rossi explained that the radio frequency generator allows the forces that would normally prevent the fusion process from taking place (Coulomb forces) to work for you, and not against you. Rossi offers that the full theory of how the system works will be revealed, as he put it, soon. Reference: http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0607/0607193.pdf Precision bond lengths for Rydberg Matter clusters KN (N = 19, 37, 61 and 91) in excitation levels n = 4 - 8 from rotational radiofrequency emission spectra Clusters of the electronically excited condensed matter Rydberg Matter (RM) are planar and six-fold symmetric with magic numbers N = 7, 19, 37, 61 and 91. The bond distances in the clusters are known with a precision of ± 5% both from theory and Coulomb explosion experiments. Long series of up to 40 consecutive lines from rotational transitions in such clusters are now observed in emission in the radio-frequency range 7-90 MHz. The clusters are produced in five different vacuum chambers equipped with RM emitters. The RF is forming potassium clusters in the reaction chamber.. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. . . . As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. And let me repeat myself. It is possible that the pattern of heating and cooling somehow triggers the reaction and this pattern is what Rossi is trying to hide. This pattern may not be complicated. Suppose it is simple. Suppose you heat the sample sharply at first, and then back off the input power. That is how Fleischmann and Pons triggered their boil off events. Even if it is simple, it is still worth a great deal of money if he can file a patent on it before the secret gets out. Fleischmann and Pons did not use RF at all. It was purely thermal stimulation. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet...
Thanks. You are quoted: The E-Cat Testing Team, Real or Ringers?http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/24/the-e-cat-testing-team-real-or-ringers/ [mg] On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Sunil Shah s.u.n@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Mark, Hehe, yes to both, I suppose, though as stated I am guessing at what he actually studied. (Could ask him I suppose.) I found these, btw (after I posted, I swear!) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._med._vet. and http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilingenj%C3%B6r .. so it's ALL *facts* : D /Sunil -- From: mgi...@gibbs.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 11:50:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sunil, May I quote you in a Forbes posting? If I may, may I cite your name? Thanks in advance. Yours, Mark Gibbs. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Sunil Shah s.u.n@hotmail.com wrote: Hi All, My first post, after a couple of year's hiding in the shadows.. Just want to settle a couple of things. Torbjörn Hartman's personal merits (as listed at http://katalog.uu.se/empInfo?id=N96-5170) state Dr.Med.vet., civ.ing.. Assuming the line is written in Swedish (which it is, trust me : ), it says: Doktor i Medicinsk Vetenskap, Civilingenjör. These translate into English as: PhD Medical Science, MSc. So, my guess is he did an MSc in Engineering Physics (5 yrs) followed by research/studies in medicine. CivIng does NOT mean Civil Engineer in Sweden. It covers ALL higher level engineering science paths, that lead to a Master's level degree, and are 4-5 years long. The traditional paths being ChemEng, EE, Eng Physics, Computer Science and _Civil_Engineering_ I am bilingual (Swedish/English) and did Engineering Physics (MSc) : ) /Sunil
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
I think we are getting somewhere in this investigation by looking at the subtle and not so subtle effects of low frequency waves. A search of the Dardik superwave information shows that many of the carrier waves are low frequency. Some are very low. The classic example is the “rogue wave” in the Ocean which is not just subhertz but a few per year. And yes the trouble with “deconstructing Andre” is that he is fond of mixing truth, half-truth, and intentional decoy information… sometimes in the same sentence. From: David Roberson A steady state magnetic field will penetrate the stainless steel. A time changing one will be attenuated as eddy currents induced within the metal generate a reverse field that counters the source field to an extent that depends upon the rate of change of that field. The metal thickness is also crucial to the ultimate level of shielding. Mark, as you say the changes in the PWM waveform that occur at a slow rate will find their way inside. I am not confident that this is a mechanism that Rossi uses, but it might have some effect. It appears strange that Rossi does not wish to reveal the resistor drive waveforms. Perhaps he is using a moderate frequency drive signal for some reason that we are unaware of, only he knows. One thing is obvious, he likes to keep us guessing. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 5:18 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Mr. Lynn, You’re a bit too quick on the trigger… Let me repeat myself, a *magnetic* field WILL penetrate most austenitic stainless steels. However, I know that a static mag-field is not the same as the magnetic component of an oscillating EM field, so I called a colleague who worked for Varian for 40 years, and who has a lot of magnetics expertise. He said that static, and possibly VLF, magnetic fields will penetrate nonmagnetic stainless steels, but that the magnetic component of EM waves of any significant frequency will probably not. Another consideration, and I think this was mentioned in the Collective two (or was it three) years ago right after Rossi’s first January demonstration, is that when the electrical resistance heaters are energized (with DC), they will generate a mag-fld around them. This can probably be considered a static mag-field, and will likely penetrate the non-magnetic 310 stainless cylinder, so the internal core of the reactor may very well feel this PWM-modulated field. -Mark Iverson From: Robert Lynn [mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com? ] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or promote the reaction, also Rossi has claimed in past to have it running using gas heating. Rossi's setup only allows for heat to get in. The skin depth of the 3mm thick SS vessel will exclude all fields above probably about 100-200Hz entirely, and will greatly attenuate lower frequencies as well (DC would get through) but the surrounding magnetic fields in the resistors themselves are very weak anyway. (not that many turns). If he wanted or needed magnetic fields to penetrate the reactor then he would not be using spiral wound resistors arrayed around the reactor vessel, he would have a coil wound around the reactor vessel. As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. On 24 May 2013 17:56, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Looks like Dardik’s superwave tech is an application – not a granted patent http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardik http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardikei=LJufUbHwM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en ei=LJufUbHwM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en Mark, In the end – it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a “trade secret” per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. Would you agree? SS spec sheet: http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S-314.pdf From: MarkI-ZeroPoint “It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?” Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Dave states regarding Rossi: “One thing is obvious, he likes to keep us guessing.” I hope so… if he didn’t, we’d be really bored! J -mark From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 2:38 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? A steady state magnetic field will penetrate the stainless steel. A time changing one will be attenuated as eddy currents induced within the metal generate a reverse field that counters the source field to an extent that depends upon the rate of change of that field. The metal thickness is also crucial to the ultimate level of shielding. Mark, as you say the changes in the PWM waveform that occur at a slow rate will find their way inside. I am not confident that this is a mechanism that Rossi uses, but it might have some effect. It appears strange that Rossi does not wish to reveal the resistor drive waveforms. Perhaps he is using a moderate frequency drive signal for some reason that we are unaware of, only he knows. One thing is obvious, he likes to keep us guessing. Dave
RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
If we’re talking about ON/OFF mag-fields making it inside the reactor, and the presence of very small ferromagnetic particles, I could easily see the particles becoming aligned with the field, and *equally spaced* and perhaps even suspended(?)… we all know that geometry has something to do with it! Man, all sorts of images are flooding in now… like, do NAEs within the aligned/equally-spaced/suspended particles undergo the reaction, but then one has to let them all fall to the floor to distribute the heat to reactor walls? -Mark Iverson From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 2:54 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? I think we are getting somewhere in this investigation by looking at the subtle and not so subtle effects of low frequency waves. A search of the Dardik superwave information shows that many of the carrier waves are low frequency. Some are very low. The classic example is the “rogue wave” in the Ocean which is not just subhertz but a few per year. And yes the trouble with “deconstructing Andre” is that he is fond of mixing truth, half-truth, and intentional decoy information… sometimes in the same sentence. From: David Roberson A steady state magnetic field will penetrate the stainless steel. A time changing one will be attenuated as eddy currents induced within the metal generate a reverse field that counters the source field to an extent that depends upon the rate of change of that field. The metal thickness is also crucial to the ultimate level of shielding. Mark, as you say the changes in the PWM waveform that occur at a slow rate will find their way inside. I am not confident that this is a mechanism that Rossi uses, but it might have some effect. It appears strange that Rossi does not wish to reveal the resistor drive waveforms. Perhaps he is using a moderate frequency drive signal for some reason that we are unaware of, only he knows. One thing is obvious, he likes to keep us guessing. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 5:18 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Mr. Lynn, You’re a bit too quick on the trigger… Let me repeat myself, a *magnetic* field WILL penetrate most austenitic stainless steels. However, I know that a static mag-field is not the same as the magnetic component of an oscillating EM field, so I called a colleague who worked for Varian for 40 years, and who has a lot of magnetics expertise. He said that static, and possibly VLF, magnetic fields will penetrate nonmagnetic stainless steels, but that the magnetic component of EM waves of any significant frequency will probably not. Another consideration, and I think this was mentioned in the Collective two (or was it three) years ago right after Rossi’s first January demonstration, is that when the electrical resistance heaters are energized (with DC), they will generate a mag-fld around them. This can probably be considered a static mag-field, and will likely penetrate the non-magnetic 310 stainless cylinder, so the internal core of the reactor may very well feel this PWM-modulated field. -Mark Iverson From: Robert Lynn [mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com? ] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or promote the reaction, also Rossi has claimed in past to have it running using gas heating. Rossi's setup only allows for heat to get in. The skin depth of the 3mm thick SS vessel will exclude all fields above probably about 100-200Hz entirely, and will greatly attenuate lower frequencies as well (DC would get through) but the surrounding magnetic fields in the resistors themselves are very weak anyway. (not that many turns). If he wanted or needed magnetic fields to penetrate the reactor then he would not be using spiral wound resistors arrayed around the reactor vessel, he would have a coil wound around the reactor vessel. As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. On 24 May 2013 17:56, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Looks like Dardik’s superwave tech is an application – not a granted patent http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardik http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardikei=LJufUbHwM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic
Well. Okay. I DID say I have no idea.. Maybe AR piped in some liquid oxygen through one of those extra wires? Ol' Bab On 5/24/2013 5:30 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: David, have you ever actually heated stainless steel. I suggest you take a spoon from your collection in the kitchen and heat it to red hot. You will find that the spoon will turn black but will not ignite. If you keep heating to a higher temperature, it will soften and bend, but will not ignite. So tell me, why would you suggest the stainless in the Rossi device would ignite? Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 3:21 PM, David L Babcock wrote: I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this may be what happened. A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned. Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic. The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to have NAEs still operable in liquid state! Ol' Bab, who was as engineer...
Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet...
Mark Gibbs mgi...@gibbs.com wrote: Thanks. You are quoted: The E-Cat Testing Team, Real or Ringers?http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/24/the-e-cat-testing-team-real-or-ringers/ I added this reality check comment: Note also that the research was paid for by the Alba Langenskiöld Foundation and ELFORSK AB. The latter is an industrial consortium of Sweden’s major energy producers. I do not think an organization of this caliber would pay for a group of incompetent amateurs to investigate this claim. I am confident that experts in Elforsk know these researchers, and have vetted them. This kind of organization does fund a group of nobodies, and it would not allow them to upload a report with errors or a false claim about funding. In other words, the authors are not the only ones risking their credibility. The Foundation and Elsforsk are also, as is Osaka University, and the four other researchers mentioned in the acknowledgements. This is no great risk. Cold fusion has been verified at over 200 major universities and national laboratories, often at high signal to noise ratios. The scientific method works; experiments work. We can be sure it is real. Rossi’s claims are not so different these others, so it is likely that his claims are also true. - Jed
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic
Here is some speculation about the cat and the mouse. The inner reaction chamber may well be what Rossi calls the cat. The volume which houses the heating elements may well be what Rossi calls the mouse. The Cat has a high COP due to the fact that it contains nickel Micro/nano powder. But the mouse has a COP just over 1. The mouse must also use hydrogen to produce a small level of reaction which is base solely on hydrogen nano particle formation since there is no nickel present in the volume of the mouse. The hydrogen must react with the bulk metal in and around the mouse. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: In the polariton theory, the hydrogen serves as a dielectric to surround all nano/micro particles (NMP). The spaces between the NMP serve as the nuclear active sites(NAS). NMP formation requires a hot area where vaporization of a material can occur, and a cold zone where the vapor can condense into NMPs. This kind of condensation cycle occurs with cesium between 800K and 1500K in a thermoelectric generator as I have posted before. As long as the hydrogen does not escape the reactor, the NAS can form if a condensation cycle between a hot zone and a cold zone can be maintained. Hydrogen can form NMPs, along with potassium and carbon. Nickel NMS would have become liquid and therefore, removed from the reaction. The Silicon nitride ceramic would not have produced vapor. One question is as follows: what was the gas in the volume between the inner reaction chamber and the outer shell? That gas may have participated in the reaction. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: OK Axil, I presume from this description you assume ALL of the cylinder containing the Ni+H2 melted along with the surrounding ceramic, which in your mind meant the temperature got to and stayed abouve 2000° long enough to completely melt the stainless container and surrounding ceramic. Is this correct? Normally, a device making energy will be hotter in some regions than others. If the temperature gets too hot, the hottest point will melt, which in this case would allow all the H2 to leave. This would immediately stop the source of energy. Once this happens, were does the energy come from to melt the rest of the material? Actually, I expect a small; amount of liquid metal would contact the ceramic, lower its melting point, and produce a small amount of local melt. The description was not detailed enough to properly describe what actually happened. Until we see a picture of the melted region, what is the purpose of your speculation? Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Axil Axil wrote: The performance of this device was such that the reactor was destroyed, melting the internal steel cylinder and the surrounding ceramic layers. This info tells me that the inner secure reaction chamber and the surrounding ceramic core melted, but not the outer air cooled surrounding shell. *The reactor was not exposed to the air through a breach in the outer shell.* On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:21 PM, David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.comwrote: I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this may be what happened. A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned. Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic. The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to have NAEs still operable in liquid state! Ol' Bab, who was as engineer... On 5/24/2013 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
The heat distribution inside the cat is superfluidic. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:04 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: If we’re talking about ON/OFF mag-fields making it inside the reactor, and the presence of very small ferromagnetic particles, I could easily see the particles becoming aligned with the field, and **equally spaced** and perhaps even suspended(?)… we all know that geometry has something to do with it! ** ** Man, all sorts of images are flooding in now… like, do NAEs within the aligned/equally-spaced/suspended particles undergo the reaction, but then one has to let them all fall to the floor to distribute the heat to reactor walls? ** ** -Mark Iverson ** ** *From:* Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 2:54 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? ** ** I think we are getting somewhere in this investigation by looking at the subtle and not so subtle effects of low frequency waves. ** ** A search of the Dardik superwave information shows that many of the carrier waves are low frequency. Some are very low. ** ** The classic example is the “rogue wave” in the Ocean which is not just subhertz but a few per year. ** ** And yes the trouble with “deconstructing Andre” is that he is fond of mixing truth, half-truth, and intentional decoy information… sometimes in the same sentence. ** ** ** ** *From:* David Roberson ** ** A steady state magnetic field will penetrate the stainless steel. A time changing one will be attenuated as eddy currents induced within the metal generate a reverse field that counters the source field to an extent that depends upon the rate of change of that field. The metal thickness is also crucial to the ultimate level of shielding.*** * Mark, as you say the changes in the PWM waveform that occur at a slow rate will find their way inside. I am not confident that this is a mechanism that Rossi uses, but it might have some effect. It appears strange that Rossi does not wish to reveal the resistor drive waveforms. Perhaps he is using a moderate frequency drive signal for some reason that we are unaware of, only he knows. One thing is obvious, he likes to keep us guessing. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 5:18 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Mr. Lynn, You’re a bit too quick on the trigger… Let me repeat myself, a **magnetic** field WILL penetrate most austenitic stainless steels. However, I know that a static mag-field is not the same as the magnetic component of an oscillating EM field, so I called a colleague who worked for Varian for 40 years, and who has a lot of magnetics expertise. He said that static, and possibly VLF, magnetic fields will penetrate nonmagnetic stainless steels, but that the magnetic component of EM waves of any significant frequency will probably not. Another consideration, and I think this was mentioned in the Collective two (or was it three) years ago right after Rossi’s first January demonstration, is that when the electrical resistance heaters are energized (with DC), they will generate a mag-fld around them. This can probably be considered a static mag-field, and will likely penetrate the non-magnetic 310 stainless cylinder, so the internal core of the reactor may very well feel this PWM-modulated field. -Mark Iverson *From:* Robert Lynn [mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.comrobert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com?] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 10:57 AM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or promote the reaction, also Rossi has claimed in past to have it running using gas heating. Rossi's setup only allows for heat to get in. The skin depth of the 3mm thick SS vessel will exclude all fields above probably about 100-200Hz entirely, and will greatly attenuate lower frequencies as well (DC would get through) but the surrounding magnetic fields in the resistors themselves are very weak anyway. (not that many turns). If he wanted or needed magnetic fields to penetrate the reactor then he would not be using spiral wound resistors arrayed around the reactor vessel, he would have a coil wound around the reactor vessel. As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very
RE: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet...
MarkG: Good article short, to the point, fair, providing links for those curious enough to look up the credentials themselves without having to do the separate web-searches. Keep up the balanced reporting -Mark Iverson From: mark.gi...@gmail.com [mailto:mark.gi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Gibbs Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 2:52 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet... Thanks. You are quoted: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/05/24/the-e-cat-testing-team-rea l-or-ringers/ The E-Cat Testing Team, Real or Ringers? [mg] On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Sunil Shah s.u.n@hotmail.com wrote: Hi Mark, Hehe, yes to both, I suppose, though as stated I am guessing at what he actually studied. (Could ask him I suppose.) I found these, btw (after I posted, I swear!) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._med._vet. and http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilingenj%C3%B6r http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilingenj%25C3%25B6r .. so it's ALL *facts* : D /Sunil _ From: mgi...@gibbs.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 11:50:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sunil, May I quote you in a Forbes posting? If I may, may I cite your name? Thanks in advance. Yours, Mark Gibbs. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Sunil Shah s.u.n@hotmail.com wrote: Hi All, My first post, after a couple of year's hiding in the shadows.. Just want to settle a couple of things. Torbjörn Hartman's personal merits (as listed at http://katalog.uu.se/empInfo?id=N96-5170) state Dr.Med.vet., civ.ing.. Assuming the line is written in Swedish (which it is, trust me : ), it says: Doktor i Medicinsk Vetenskap, Civilingenjör. These translate into English as: PhD Medical Science, MSc. So, my guess is he did an MSc in Engineering Physics (5 yrs) followed by research/studies in medicine. CivIng does NOT mean Civil Engineer in Sweden. It covers ALL higher level engineering science paths, that lead to a Master's level degree, and are 4-5 years long. The traditional paths being ChemEng, EE, Eng Physics, Computer Science and _Civil_Engineering_ I am bilingual (Swedish/English) and did Engineering Physics (MSc) : ) /Sunil
RE: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic
Axil, unless its described elsewhere, everything that Ive read/pics seen, indicates that the area inside the outer ceramic cylinder, and outside the stainless reactor core, is not hermetically sealed; this is the area that contains the carborundum ceramic which holds the coiled resistance heaters. In an earlier (leaked) photo of the hotcat, the end was open to the external air. Where do you gather that there is H outside the stainless reactor core? -mark From: Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 3:27 PM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic Here is some speculation about the cat and the mouse. The inner reaction chamber may well be what Rossi calls the cat. The volume which houses the heating elements may well be what Rossi calls the mouse. The Cat has a high COP due to the fact that it contains nickel Micro/nano powder. But the mouse has a COP just over 1. The mouse must also use hydrogen to produce a small level of reaction which is base solely on hydrogen nano particle formation since there is no nickel present in the volume of the mouse. The hydrogen must react with the bulk metal in and around the mouse. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: In the polariton theory, the hydrogen serves as a dielectric to surround all nano/micro particles (NMP). The spaces between the NMP serve as the nuclear active sites(NAS). NMP formation requires a hot area where vaporization of a material can occur, and a cold zone where the vapor can condense into NMPs. This kind of condensation cycle occurs with cesium between 800K and 1500K in a thermoelectric generator as I have posted before. As long as the hydrogen does not escape the reactor, the NAS can form if a condensation cycle between a hot zone and a cold zone can be maintained. Hydrogen can form NMPs, along with potassium and carbon. Nickel NMS would have become liquid and therefore, removed from the reaction. The Silicon nitride ceramic would not have produced vapor. One question is as follows: what was the gas in the volume between the inner reaction chamber and the outer shell? That gas may have participated in the reaction. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: OK Axil, I presume from this description you assume ALL of the cylinder containing the Ni+H2 melted along with the surrounding ceramic, which in your mind meant the temperature got to and stayed abouve 2000° long enough to completely melt the stainless container and surrounding ceramic. Is this correct? Normally, a device making energy will be hotter in some regions than others. If the temperature gets too hot, the hottest point will melt, which in this case would allow all the H2 to leave. This would immediately stop the source of energy. Once this happens, were does the energy come from to melt the rest of the material? Actually, I expect a small; amount of liquid metal would contact the ceramic, lower its melting point, and produce a small amount of local melt. The description was not detailed enough to properly describe what actually happened. Until we see a picture of the melted region, what is the purpose of your speculation? Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Axil Axil wrote: The performance of this device was such that the reactor was destroyed, melting the internal steel cylinder and the surrounding ceramic layers. This info tells me that the inner secure reaction chamber and the surrounding ceramic core melted, but not the outer air cooled surrounding shell. The reactor was not exposed to the air through a breach in the outer shell. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:21 PM, David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.com wrote: I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this may be what happened. A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned. Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic. The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to have NAEs still operable in liquid state! Ol' Bab, who was as engineer... On 5/24/2013 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Axil, This addresses an earlier post you made. The boiling point of nickel is about 2700 C and the melting is about 1400 C. Ecat fuel never reaches temperatures close to the boiling point so you don't need to suppose bubble formation is suppressed because the fuel behaving a like a superfluid. harry On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The heat distribution inside the cat is superfluidic. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:04 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: If we’re talking about ON/OFF mag-fields making it inside the reactor, and the presence of very small ferromagnetic particles, I could easily see the particles becoming aligned with the field, and **equally spaced** and perhaps even suspended(?)… we all know that geometry has something to do with it! ** ** Man, all sorts of images are flooding in now… like, do NAEs within the aligned/equally-spaced/suspended particles undergo the reaction, but then one has to let them all fall to the floor to distribute the heat to reactor walls? ** ** -Mark Iverson ** ** *From:* Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 2:54 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? ** ** I think we are getting somewhere in this investigation by looking at the subtle and not so subtle effects of low frequency waves. ** ** A search of the Dardik superwave information shows that many of the carrier waves are low frequency. Some are very low. ** ** The classic example is the “rogue wave” in the Ocean which is not just subhertz but a few per year. ** ** And yes the trouble with “deconstructing Andre” is that he is fond of mixing truth, half-truth, and intentional decoy information… sometimes in the same sentence. ** ** ** ** *From:* David Roberson ** ** A steady state magnetic field will penetrate the stainless steel. A time changing one will be attenuated as eddy currents induced within the metal generate a reverse field that counters the source field to an extent that depends upon the rate of change of that field. The metal thickness is also crucial to the ultimate level of shielding.** ** Mark, as you say the changes in the PWM waveform that occur at a slow rate will find their way inside. I am not confident that this is a mechanism that Rossi uses, but it might have some effect. It appears strange that Rossi does not wish to reveal the resistor drive waveforms. Perhaps he is using a moderate frequency drive signal for some reason that we are unaware of, only he knows. One thing is obvious, he likes to keep us guessing. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 5:18 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Mr. Lynn, You’re a bit too quick on the trigger… Let me repeat myself, a **magnetic** field WILL penetrate most austenitic stainless steels. However, I know that a static mag-field is not the same as the magnetic component of an oscillating EM field, so I called a colleague who worked for Varian for 40 years, and who has a lot of magnetics expertise. He said that static, and possibly VLF, magnetic fields will penetrate nonmagnetic stainless steels, but that the magnetic component of EM waves of any significant frequency will probably not. Another consideration, and I think this was mentioned in the Collective two (or was it three) years ago right after Rossi’s first January demonstration, is that when the electrical resistance heaters are energized (with DC), they will generate a mag-fld around them. This can probably be considered a static mag-field, and will likely penetrate the non-magnetic 310 stainless cylinder, so the internal core of the reactor may very well feel this PWM-modulated field. -Mark Iverson *From:* Robert Lynn [mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.comrobert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com?] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 10:57 AM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or promote the reaction, also Rossi has claimed in past to have it running using gas heating. Rossi's setup only allows for heat to get in. The skin depth of the 3mm thick SS vessel will exclude all fields above probably about 100-200Hz entirely, and will greatly attenuate lower frequencies as well (DC would get through) but the surrounding magnetic fields in the resistors themselves are
Re: [Vo]:Hot Cat report published -- Updated Ragone Plot
In reply to Alan Fletcher's message of Mon, 20 May 2013 10:57:44 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] Updated Ragone Plot --- for the March test Power density = (4.4 ± 0.4) · 10^5 [W/kg] (34) Energy density = (5.1 ± 0.5) · 10^7 [Wh/kg] (35) http://lenr.qumbu.com/ragone_lawrenceliv_ecat_130520.png (Note that the axes are reversed from the version used in the paper.) I got it from http://davisstraub.com/OZ/1236003460 -- who indicates that the original is from Lawrence Livermore. I used this one because it has good resolution and clear axes. Just a small BTW. The value for gasoline is probably wrong. The value for pure octane is 10.737 kWh/kg. Other values may be found at http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/ArthurGolnik.shtml. All values exceed 1 Wh/kg. The highest value actually on the chart is about 3-4000 Wh/kg. The chart also shows a range of about a factor of 10 from the lowest energy density to the highest, which I find very unlikely. Also the whole concept of peak power/kg should be taken with a grain of salt, because it depends on the means by which the energy is released. e.g. a gas turbine would differ from a reciprocating engine. (There is little difference in energy density between avgas and normal gasoline.) Just for the sake of comparison, the most advanced flywheel is probably an electron whizzing around an atom. For the Hydrogen atom, that yields an energy density of 362000 Wh/kg. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic
Rossi is a very fast moving target. The timeframe when an earlier (leaked) photo of the hotcat where the end was open to the external air was before Rossi invented the cat and mouse design. At that time he only had the cat. The hydrogen envelope inside the shell is something I will be looking to verify as a way that Rossi has designed the mouse. Would Rossi come up with an entirely new gainful way to execute his reaction without hydrogen? On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:49 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: Axil, unless its described elsewhere, everything that I’ve read/pics seen, indicates that the area inside the outer ceramic cylinder, and outside the stainless reactor core, is not hermetically sealed; this is the area that contains the carborundum ceramic which holds the coiled resistance heaters. In an earlier (leaked) photo of the hotcat, the end was open to the external air. Where do you gather that there is H outside the stainless reactor core? -mark ** ** *From:* Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 3:27 PM *To:* vortex-l *Subject:* Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic ** ** Here is some speculation about the cat and the mouse. The inner reaction chamber may well be what Rossi calls the cat. The volume which houses the heating elements may well be what Rossi calls the mouse. The Cat has a high COP due to the fact that it contains nickel Micro/nano powder. But the mouse has a COP just over 1. The mouse must also use hydrogen to produce a small level of reaction which is base solely on hydrogen nano particle formation since there is no nickel present in the volume of the mouse. The hydrogen must react with the bulk metal in and around the mouse. ** ** On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: In the polariton theory, the hydrogen serves as a dielectric to surround all nano/micro particles (NMP). The spaces between the NMP serve as the nuclear active sites(NAS). NMP formation requires a hot area where vaporization of a material can occur, and a cold zone where the vapor can condense into NMPs. This kind of condensation cycle occurs with cesium between 800K and 1500K in a thermoelectric generator as I have posted before. As long as the hydrogen does not escape the reactor, the NAS can form if a condensation cycle between a hot zone and a cold zone can be maintained. Hydrogen can form NMPs, along with potassium and carbon. Nickel NMS would have become liquid and therefore, removed from the reaction. The Silicon nitride ceramic would not have produced vapor. One question is as follows: what was the gas in the volume between the inner reaction chamber and the outer shell? That gas may have participated in the reaction. ** ** On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: OK Axil, I presume from this description you assume ALL of the cylinder containing the Ni+H2 melted along with the surrounding ceramic, which in your mind meant the temperature got to and stayed abouve 2000° long enough to completely melt the stainless container and surrounding ceramic. Is this correct? ** ** Normally, a device making energy will be hotter in some regions than others. If the temperature gets too hot, the hottest point will melt, which in this case would allow all the H2 to leave. This would immediately stop the source of energy. Once this happens, were does the energy come from to melt the rest of the material? ** ** Actually, I expect a small; amount of liquid metal would contact the ceramic, lower its melting point, and produce a small amount of local melt. The description was not detailed enough to properly describe what actually happened. Until we see a picture of the melted region, what is the purpose of your speculation? ** ** Ed Storms ** ** On May 24, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Axil Axil wrote: The performance of this device was such that the reactor was destroyed, melting the internal steel cylinder and the surrounding ceramic layers.** ** This info tells me that the inner secure reaction chamber and the surrounding ceramic core melted, but not the outer air cooled surrounding shell. *The reactor was not exposed to the air through a breach in the outer shell.* ** ** On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 5:21 PM, David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.com wrote: I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this may be what happened. A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned. Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic. The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to have NAEs still operable in liquid
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat Tester's Bios
On 2013-05-24 00:46, Mark Gibbs wrote: Does anone have any more in-depth bios of the group that tested the E-Cat. This is what I have so far: Good job with the latest blog post. What about other professors and researchers cited in the ArXiv paper? Surely they wouldn't want to be associated with this unless they gave explicit permission for it. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: I have proposed the heat results from deuterium production, which I'm trying to get people to look for. I am very interested to see whether the opposite result is seen -- i.e., a significant *decrease* in deuterium over time in an Ni/H system. If you help design any protocols, please keep this possibility in mind so that steps can be taken to look for it. Eric
[Vo]:Of Rabbit Holes and Rogue Waves... was Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Jones, fellow Vorts: [sorry, changed the Subject line since I like catchy one-liners] As he swallows the Red Pill… It’s kinda dark in this rabbit hole, but venturing down a bit further, I found this: http://phys.org/news/2013-05-skyrmions-ferromagnet-centrosymmetry.html “… magnetic skyrmions have been shown to have very interesting and unprecedented properties, such as a very great anomalous Hall effect and skyrmion motion under ultra-low-density currents.” “… nanomagnetic clusters spontaneously form skyrmion structures even in *ferromagnetic* manganese oxides where the crystal structures have centrosymmetry. This result suggests the possibility that skyrmion structures might be formed even in *nanomagnetic clusters* and nanoparticles of *various ferromagnets* that do not meet the conditions conventionally deemed necessary. “The skyrmions observed in this research indicate a phenomenon in which the magnetic vortex repeatedly inverts between clockwise and counterclockwise at a ***certain temperature*** because of thermal fluctuation. It was also found, moreover, that when two skyrmions come close together, they invert to the same vortex direction *in synch with each other*. “ Hmmm, I wonder how far down this rabbit hole goes? ;-) Where’s my sunglasses… And re: Jones’ comment, “The classic example is the “rogue wave” in the Ocean which is not just subhertz but a few per year. Yeah, but was that rogue wave created in a single instant meeting of several smaller waves, or did it build up over time because it happened to encounter more CONstructive interfering waves vs DEstructive ones??? -Mark Iverson From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 2:54 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? I think we are getting somewhere in this investigation by looking at the subtle and not so subtle effects of low frequency waves. A search of the Dardik superwave information shows that many of the carrier waves are low frequency. Some are very low. The classic example is the “rogue wave” in the Ocean which is not just subhertz but a few per year. And yes the trouble with “deconstructing Andre” is that he is fond of mixing truth, half-truth, and intentional decoy information… sometimes in the same sentence. From: David Roberson A steady state magnetic field will penetrate the stainless steel. A time changing one will be attenuated as eddy currents induced within the metal generate a reverse field that counters the source field to an extent that depends upon the rate of change of that field. The metal thickness is also crucial to the ultimate level of shielding. Mark, as you say the changes in the PWM waveform that occur at a slow rate will find their way inside. I am not confident that this is a mechanism that Rossi uses, but it might have some effect. It appears strange that Rossi does not wish to reveal the resistor drive waveforms. Perhaps he is using a moderate frequency drive signal for some reason that we are unaware of, only he knows. One thing is obvious, he likes to keep us guessing. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 5:18 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Mr. Lynn, You’re a bit too quick on the trigger… Let me repeat myself, a *magnetic* field WILL penetrate most austenitic stainless steels. However, I know that a static mag-field is not the same as the magnetic component of an oscillating EM field, so I called a colleague who worked for Varian for 40 years, and who has a lot of magnetics expertise. He said that static, and possibly VLF, magnetic fields will penetrate nonmagnetic stainless steels, but that the magnetic component of EM waves of any significant frequency will probably not. Another consideration, and I think this was mentioned in the Collective two (or was it three) years ago right after Rossi’s first January demonstration, is that when the electrical resistance heaters are energized (with DC), they will generate a mag-fld around them. This can probably be considered a static mag-field, and will likely penetrate the non-magnetic 310 stainless cylinder, so the internal core of the reactor may very well feel this PWM-modulated field. -Mark Iverson From: Robert Lynn [mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com? ] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 10:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or
Re: [Vo]:Levi Hot Cat paper is a gem : power conditioner needed
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 9:16 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: So if we're looking for errors in power measurement, we need to be most concerned about frequencies below the IR. The problem for those of us who want to find error in the measure is that the peak is in the camera's physical sensor bandwidth where we aren't extrapolating -- and the most likely source of error is in an area of the spectrum that not only has lower luminosity but lower energy per photon. I believe Lubos Motl proposed somewhere that the E-Cat HT surface is not well-approximated by a blackbody and that the true emissivity is likely to be T^(4+d), where 0 d 1; i.e., that in the worst case scenario there will be ~T^5 relationship between temperature and power rather than T^4. I do not know what to make of this (assuming I have accurately reproduced the details). Eric
Re: [Vo]:Levi Hot Cat paper is a gem : power conditioner needed
I wrote: I believe Lubos Motl proposed somewhere that the E-Cat HT surface is not well-approximated by a blackbody and that the true emissivity is likely to be T^(4+d), where 0 d 1; i.e., that in the worst case scenario there will be ~T^5 relationship between temperature and power rather than T^4. I do not know what to make of this (assuming I have accurately reproduced the details). That it was Lubos Motl was unintentional speculation on my part, drawing upon a comment by someone else in the comments to the recent Register article [1]. The person who wanted to modify the Stefan-Boltzmann equation was HolyFreakinGhost. Elsewhere there is speculation (from the real Motl) that the emissivity of metals is 0.2 or something on that order [2]. It seems pretty clear that the E-Cat HT was well painted with black paint; I do not see how this detail could have been a point of confusion. However, if Motl's value of ~0.2 were used for the emissivity, he estimates that the calculated power would be approximately equal to the input power. Eric [1] http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2013/05/22/e_cat_test_claims_success_yet_again/#c_1833878 [2] http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/05/tommaso-dorigo-impressed-by-cold-fusion.html
Re: [Vo]:Levi Hot Cat paper is a gem : power conditioner needed
Here's what Motl says about it: The emissivity is set to one i.e. they assume the reactor to be a black body. This choice is labeled conservative. Except that the truth seems to be going exactly in the opposite direction. The actual emissivity is lower than one and it's the coefficient multiplying the fourth power of the absolute temperature to get the power. Because they seem to calculate the power from the measured temperature (the infrared camera is claimed to give the right temperature and automatically adjust the observed radiation for emissivity etc.; see page 7 of the paper), the actual power is actually much lower than [the calculated figure] 1609 watts. The emissivity of metalshttp://www.omega.com/literature/transactions/volume1/emissivitya.html at similar reasonable temperatures seems to be 0.2 or so – something of this order – which reduces 1609 watts to something like 300 watts, pretty much equal to the consumption. Obviously, despite the fact that he cites page 7 of the paper, he didn't read it since it describes how low emissivity setting for the camera software overestimates the temperature. Hell, even Joshua Cude understood that this is a wash in the bandwidth of the camera's physical sensor. What's wrong with Motl? On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I wrote: I believe Lubos Motl proposed somewhere that the E-Cat HT surface is not well-approximated by a blackbody and that the true emissivity is likely to be T^(4+d), where 0 d 1; i.e., that in the worst case scenario there will be ~T^5 relationship between temperature and power rather than T^4. I do not know what to make of this (assuming I have accurately reproduced the details). That it was Lubos Motl was unintentional speculation on my part, drawing upon a comment by someone else in the comments to the recent Register article [1]. The person who wanted to modify the Stefan-Boltzmann equation was HolyFreakinGhost. Elsewhere there is speculation (from the real Motl) that the emissivity of metals is 0.2 or something on that order [2]. It seems pretty clear that the E-Cat HT was well painted with black paint; I do not see how this detail could have been a point of confusion. However, if Motl's value of ~0.2 were used for the emissivity, he estimates that the calculated power would be approximately equal to the input power. Eric [1] http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2013/05/22/e_cat_test_claims_success_yet_again/#c_1833878 [2] http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/05/tommaso-dorigo-impressed-by-cold-fusion.html
[Vo]:Back to the Papp Engine
Does anyone have full access to Infinite Energy #51 http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/index.html In particular, I need the Title and Date of the David Ansley San Jose Mercury article, and if he described the Feynman incident, what he said. (I used to know a murky editor, but he's retired). The wiki's getting hilarious. Since Mark Gibbs has changed his mind about no independent test they've deleted it all from the lead !!!
Re: [Vo]:Back to the Papp Engine
Never mind, found the information. http://www.rexresearch.com/papp/1papp.htm#feynman - Original Message - Does anyone have full access to Infinite Energy #51 http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/index.html In particular, I need the Title and Date of the David Ansley San Jose Mercury article, and if he described the Feynman incident, what he said. (I used to know a murky editor, but he's retired). The wiki's getting hilarious. Since Mark Gibbs has changed his mind about no independent test they've deleted it all from the lead !!!
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. My impression is that the only proprietary waveform would have been in the current going into the resistive elements in the body of the E-Cat, fed by power cables going into it. There doesn't seem to have been much speculation this time around about RF being beamed into the device from outside, although this has been a topic of speculation in the past. It seems like any special waveform going into the joule heating would be an irrelevant detail to the testing if proper, full spectrum measurements were made of the power coming in from the wall; whether and to what extent this was done remains to be clarified by the authors. If I had to speculate, the pulses are not all that special -- they're just to maximize the heat of the system without relying on an unstable T^4 law. I get the impression that this is what Defkalion are trying to do as well. Sort of like integrating the area under a curve by slicing it up into a bunch of pulses that are easy to control. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
Mark, please note I have design experience in electromagnetics (postgrad degree in EE machine design) so as I said excepted DC (in common electrical engineering parlance that is the non-time varying portion) and possibly some very attenuated low frequency (100's of Hz) EM my point remains. Rossi is (to me worryingly) needlessly obfuscating/preventing measurement of voltage current and so power in resistive heaters, because they do no more than supply heat to the reactor, there is no other magic in what they contribute. Many here would do well to spend a minute or two reading up on the simple concept of AC EM field exclusion via skin effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect On 24 May 2013 22:18, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Mr. Lynn, You’re a bit too quick on the trigger… ** ** Let me repeat myself, a **magnetic** field WILL penetrate most austenitic stainless steels. ** ** However, I know that a static mag-field is not the same as the magnetic component of an oscillating EM field, so I called a colleague who worked for Varian for 40 years, and who has a lot of magnetics expertise. He said that static, and possibly VLF, magnetic fields will penetrate nonmagnetic stainless steels, but that the magnetic component of EM waves of any significant frequency will probably not. ** ** Another consideration, and I think this was mentioned in the Collective two (or was it three) years ago right after Rossi’s first January demonstration, is that when the electrical resistance heaters are energized (with DC), they will generate a mag-fld around them. This can probably be considered a static mag-field, and will likely penetrate the non-magnetic 310 stainless cylinder, so the internal core of the reactor may very well feel this PWM-modulated field. ** ** -Mark Iverson ** ** *From:* Robert Lynn [mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 10:57 AM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? ** ** To repeat myself, there will be no significant em field penetrating the reactor. So don't try to fool yourself that there is some special secret about using em fields to instigate or promote the reaction, also Rossi has claimed in past to have it running using gas heating. Rossi's setup only allows for heat to get in. The skin depth of the 3mm thick SS vessel will exclude all fields above probably about 100-200Hz entirely, and will greatly attenuate lower frequencies as well (DC would get through) but the surrounding magnetic fields in the resistors themselves are very weak anyway. (not that many turns). ** ** If he wanted or needed magnetic fields to penetrate the reactor then he would not be using spiral wound resistors arrayed around the reactor vessel, he would have a coil wound around the reactor vessel. ** ** As such preventing measurement of current and voltage through the heating resistors looks very suspicious - as there is nothing there to be sensibly hidden if we take him at his word. ** ** On 24 May 2013 17:56, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Looks like Dardik’s superwave tech is an application – not a granted patent http://www.google.com/patents/US20080316782?dq=energetics+dardikei=LJufUbHwM8XsiwLe5oDgDgcl=en Mark, In the end – it looks to me like the secrecy about the wave-from was probably due to similarity to the Energetics patent and not a “trade secret” per se; and that Rossi is using the magnetic properties of the waveform to stimulate the nickel powder, which is itself ferromagnetic. ** ** Would you agree? SS spec sheet: http://www.northamericanstainless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Grade-310S-314.pdf *From:* MarkI-ZeroPoint “It is possible that RF would pass through these ceramics, no?” Yes, more than likely that RF could pass thru a ceramic, however, if electrically conductive, then probably not. An E or B field will most likely go thru the ceramics, but the reactor vessel is stainless steel: “The most important element of the E-Cat HT was lodged inside the structure. It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges. Two AISI 316 steel cone-shaped caps were hot-hammered in the cylinder, sealing it hermetically. Cap adherence was obtained by exploiting the higher thermal expansion coefficient of AISI 316 with respect to AISI 310 steel.” End caps are made of 316 due to greater coef of thermal expansion: 310:15.5x10-6 316:16.5x10-6 For our noninvasive glucose sensor, we used a Ni-plated soft iron housing which acts as both
Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic
And what of the reagents within the reactor? the hydride or other hydrogen supplying material. These are very combustible/oxidisable in air at high temp, quite likely to the point of melting stainless. On 24 May 2013 22:30, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: David, have you ever actually heated stainless steel. I suggest you take a spoon from your collection in the kitchen and heat it to red hot. You will find that the spoon will turn black but will not ignite. If you keep heating to a higher temperature, it will soften and bend, but will not ignite. So tell me, why would you suggest the stainless in the Rossi device would ignite? Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 3:21 PM, David L Babcock wrote: I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this may be what happened. A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned. Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic. The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to have NAEs still operable in liquid state! Ol' Bab, who was as engineer... On 5/24/2013 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms wrote: Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is possible. We have no way of knowing the melting point of that material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other words, we know nothing that would support such speculations. Ed Storms On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote: Axil, You pose some interesting questions. If what you suggest is true, then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new things about the LENR reaction. When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range. We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR reaction can melt it. This is exciting. At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has long reached its melting point. The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material must be discarded. LENR must function in liquid and vapor. Riddle me that one batman. Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories. SNIP
Re: [Vo]:Hartman's not a vet...
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:38 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: DEFINITELY not a vet. I was wondering how a veterinarian would be helpful to the testing. I figured maybe he was both a veterinarian and a genius, and that it was his qualifications as a genius that they were chiefly relying upon in this instance. Eric
[Vo]:The inanity of the hidden input power hypothesis
Several people have proposed that Rossi has secretly installed equipment in the wall circuit to deliver more electricity than the power meter shows. Common sense considerations show that this is so unlikely we can dismiss it. People should do a reality check. First, let us define the hypothesis, in general terms. You say there is a method of arranging electricity with hidden DC or something else that will fool a certain kind of power meter. Let us call it meter Type A. There must also be a meter of Type B that will detect this trick. You do not assert that it impossible to detect this power with any instrument on the market. That would be absurd. You are saying that Levi et al. brought the wrong kind of meter. Here are some problems with this hypothesis: Rossi did not know what kind of meter they intended to bring. He might have gone to a lot of trouble to fool Type A only to see them show up with Type B. His scheme would fall apart. Rossi does not know what kind of meter they will bring to the next test. They might show up with Type B, putting an end to his scheme a few weeks from now. Sooner or later, someone is bound to try Type B. Or they will try plugging it into another circuit. Despite all the blather to the contrary, it is a fact that Rossi has allowed several completely independent tests of his machines, in Italy and the U.S. He was not present. He wasn't even on the same continent. They plugged the machines into their own wall sockets. There is not the slightest chance anyone will give him a large sum or money without independent testing. I know some of the people who might give him money, and who have given him money. They are not fools. Perhaps you assert that Levi may have brought Type A because he is in cahoots with Rossi. The same set of conditions apply. Sooner or later someone will try power meter Type B and the scam will collapse instantly. Levi knows that. If he knows how to conspire to select the wrong kind of meter, he will also know the right kind, and he will know there is no chance of keeping this under wraps indefinitely, and no chance of cashing in on it. He knows that he will be caught sooner or later. This applies to all of the other far fetched notions about IR lasers and so on. I would also point out that despite all the noise from Krivit, neither he nor anyone else has caught Rossi cheating so far. They have caught him making stupid mistakes, with a plugged up reactor. Suppose Rossi had allowed me to come with my instruments. Or suppose that I had gone with Krivit and used Rossi's instruments. I would measured a few things, sparged the water, and I would have said, Andrea, this thing is not working. It is plugged up. That is exactly what happened to the people at NASA. It took them little time to figure this out. It would not have taken me much longer. I have spent several months making similar measurements. I may not know much, but I can tell when X liters per minute are going in but only a fraction of X is coming out, and I darn well would check for that. Anyone who has ever done flow calorimetry would. The cooling water flows everywhere. It leaks. Always. Krivit got the idea that Rossi was cheating because neither Krivit nor Rossi measured anything or made any effort to see what the machine was doing. It is not an attempt fool someone when the method is so simple that I or anyone else who bothers to look will find it within minutes. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Back to the Papp Engine
The wiki's getting hilarious. Since Mark Gibbs has changed his mind about no independent test they've deleted it all from the lead !!! Moved out of the lead.
Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input?
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The boiling point of nickel is not related to superfluidity. The polaritron condensate is where superfluidity come from. Any condensate will be superfluidic in the volume that it covers. I know, but in the other post you said a superfluid can't boil (i.e. produce bubbles) when heated. My point is ordinary fluids don't bubble either until they reach their boiling point, so an absence of bubbles doesn't prove a fluid is a superfluid. Harry On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.comwrote: Axil, This addresses an earlier post you made. The boiling point of nickel is about 2700 C and the melting is about 1400 C. Ecat fuel never reaches temperatures close to the boiling point so you don't need to suppose bubble formation is suppressed because the fuel behaving a like a superfluid. harry On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The heat distribution inside the cat is superfluidic. On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 6:04 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: If we’re talking about ON/OFF mag-fields making it inside the reactor, and the presence of very small ferromagnetic particles, I could easily see the particles becoming aligned with the field, and **equally spaced** and perhaps even suspended(?)… we all know that geometry has something to do with it! ** ** Man, all sorts of images are flooding in now… like, do NAEs within the aligned/equally-spaced/suspended particles undergo the reaction, but then one has to let them all fall to the floor to distribute the heat to reactor walls? ** ** -Mark Iverson ** ** *From:* Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 2:54 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? ** ** I think we are getting somewhere in this investigation by looking at the subtle and not so subtle effects of low frequency waves. ** ** A search of the Dardik superwave information shows that many of the carrier waves are low frequency. Some are very low. ** ** The classic example is the “rogue wave” in the Ocean which is not just subhertz but a few per year. ** ** And yes the trouble with “deconstructing Andre” is that he is fond of mixing truth, half-truth, and intentional decoy information… sometimes in the same sentence. ** ** ** ** *From:* David Roberson ** ** A steady state magnetic field will penetrate the stainless steel. A time changing one will be attenuated as eddy currents induced within the metal generate a reverse field that counters the source field to an extent that depends upon the rate of change of that field. The metal thickness is also crucial to the ultimate level of shielding. Mark, as you say the changes in the PWM waveform that occur at a slow rate will find their way inside. I am not confident that this is a mechanism that Rossi uses, but it might have some effect. It appears strange that Rossi does not wish to reveal the resistor drive waveforms. Perhaps he is using a moderate frequency drive signal for some reason that we are unaware of, only he knows. One thing is obvious, he likes to keep us guessing. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 5:18 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of the power input? Mr. Lynn, You’re a bit too quick on the trigger… Let me repeat myself, a **magnetic** field WILL penetrate most austenitic stainless steels. However, I know that a static mag-field is not the same as the magnetic component of an oscillating EM field, so I called a colleague who worked for Varian for 40 years, and who has a lot of magnetics expertise. He said that static, and possibly VLF, magnetic fields will penetrate nonmagnetic stainless steels, but that the magnetic component of EM waves of any significant frequency will probably not. Another consideration, and I think this was mentioned in the Collective two (or was it three) years ago right after Rossi’s first January demonstration, is that when the electrical resistance heaters are energized (with DC), they will generate a mag-fld around them. This can probably be considered a static mag-field, and will likely penetrate the non-magnetic 310 stainless cylinder, so the internal core of the reactor may very well feel this PWM-modulated field. -Mark Iverson *From:* Robert Lynn [mailto:robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.comrobert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com?] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 10:57 AM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Why did Rossi prevent detailed measurement of
Re: [Vo]: Protons and Gammas
In reply to David Roberson's message of Fri, 24 May 2013 15:04:44 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Earlier I was curious about electrons and how they might interact with photons. The final conclusion was that they can not originate photons without outside help and that they cannot totally absorb them. The Compton effect allows them to interact, but there must always be a photon leaving the site. I suspect that the same applies to a bare proton and an incoming gamma. Does anyone know of a condition where this is not true? Can a system consisting of entangled protons absorb gammas? The answer should be yes. Dave There is no such thing as entanglement in the sense that it is commonly applied. I.e. there is nothing connecting entangled particles, and no information is passed between them, let alone instantaneously. Hence the answer to your question is no. However protons in a force field (and effectively all of them are) should be able to, provided that said field allows for exchange of momentum/angular momentum with whatever is on the other end of the field lines. (Entangled particle pairs have perfect correlation at birth). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 24 May 2013 20:30:40 -0600: Hi, [snip] First Eric, looking for deuterium would automatically see an increase as well as a decrease. No additional effort is required. Second, what reaction do you propose would use up the very small amount of D2 in H2? f/H + D = 3He + fast electron (bremsstrahlung) or possibly f/H2(molecule) + D = 3He + fast proton (none) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
