Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
At 03:22 PM 8/17/2012, Axil Axil wrote: In a post today integral sited a death of a LENR developer in an explosion. The take away, LENR is dangerous when the power is high. It is best to be as safe as you can. When Pons and Fleischmann, in 1983, in one of their first experiments, using a cubic centimeter of palladium, loaded for a long time with deuterium, experienced a meltdown (actually, it seems that palladium was vaporized), they scaled down, and LENR researchers, until stability and reliability is demonstrated with any approach, are strongly advised to do this as well. Consider this: just a bit more nudge in a certain unfortunate direction, success, they might not have only lost an apparatus and a lab bench and a few inches of concrete floor, they might have lost the whole building and more. If you are going to mess with nuclear, be prepared to succeed. This conflicts with the drumbeat of demands for More Power! But More Power should be resisted, until much more is known. As long as power is adequate to be measured, clearly above noise, and especially when power is correlated with independent measures (helium is perfect for the Fleischman-Pons Heat Effect in PdD), there is no scientific value to More Power, only increased danger -- and expense. (To satisfy skeptics who very likely aren't going to be satisfied no matter what you do.) Get a small cell to produce reliable, stable power, it is easy to extrapolate to large devices, and there is no reason to expect that a cell would fail just because there were other cells operating in its vicinity. Or that if a 5 cm length of wire reliably produces X watts, a 500 cm length would not produce 100 * X watts. (Yes, it's possible that scale-up, if it involves operation at a different temperature, will fail. The Fleischmann-Pons approach may well not be scalable at practical power levels, and it may be inherently unreliable. However, it's still valuable for scientific investigation.) (If you have a small, reliable cell that produces XP or other easily measurable effects, *that* will ultimately satisfy the skeptics, if it's cheap and readily available. A skeptic isn't going to come up with $100,000 for a kilowatt generator, but might well spend $200 for a 1-watt device, if he or she gets to play with it to his or her heart's content. And if an inventor has a 1-watt device that is reliable, it should be trivial to get a patent. It's the lack of easily available demonstrations that has allowed the USPTO to deny patents. The patent, under additional claims, goes for bigger stuff. Once the patent is issued, as well, skeptics can independently make devices. But if you can buy one for $200, it makes no sense to go to all the work to recreate it independently -- unless one is actually aiming at engineering something bigger. And someone who wants to do that will *certainly* buy the kit. And serious skeptics will do it to figure out the trick. Good luck to them! -- and I mean that. -- If the FPHE had been replicable for $200, this would all have been over twenty years ago. Unfortunately, the figure is probably not far south of $10,000, plus a *lot* of time, for a full-on heat demonstration well above noise and possible calorimetric error. You can probably set up the FPHE for much less than that, if the scale is small. I'm working on it.)
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
Fast Recomb? What the hell is that? Matter collapse? What was the chemical reaction? On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:57 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: That death was from a chemical explosion. SRI, recombiner gunked up, researcher picked up the cell, gunk fell off, fast recomb,. Bang! He died, McKubre still has glass in him. As I recall reading. Closed cells are dangerous. LENR *could* be dangerous. Unreliable can cut both ways. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2012, at 4:22 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: In a post today integral sited a death of a LENR developer in an explosion. The take away, LENR is dangerous when the power is high. It is best to be as safe as you can. Axil On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:11 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com cheme...@gmail.com wrote: If you just sell plans for poppers, electronic circuit boards and licenses for the technology, then all of the liability rests with the OEM's they drag in. They probably give them a short demo in the shop before the thing malfunctions. I notice everytime I see a demo it is behind explosion proof glass. Oddity and UNCERTAINTY Stewart On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: At 11:17 PM 8/16/2012, Axil Axil wrote: I am putting two and two together here. The Papp engine ash was a brown powder. Thanks for letting us know that this was your speculation, not a conclusion from strong evidence. J Ronner talks about a two helium atom fusion process. And what J Rohner (I presume that was a mispelling) says about the process has as much -- or does it have more -- reliability than an angry monkey typiing would have? Rohner has said a lot that quite simply is not true when investigated. It starts with simple things, such as the availability of videos. But it continues with many examples of stuff that was, ah, a tad exaggerated. If we can call claiming to have a running test engines is an exaggeration if you only have test engines that may not have run at all. He's admitted to that whopper (last year, to PESN). Or claiming to have 2 MIT PhDs, but, when challenged, apparently, says they are secret and his resume now claims his education is irrelevant. Fine. It might be irrelevant, but why then did he claim the PhDs? Why did he claim the running test engines? He says why. He had to say *something* or investors would bail. That's called fraud. Saying what you think an investor wants to hear, when it isn't the truth, to induce them to maintain or make investments. Someone will nail him on this, I suspect, eventually. (However, he might be adequately covered by various agreements. We have to remember that it isn't illegal to lie, under some conditions. I'm just saying that we can't rely on what the man says for anything. If he says it's 3 PM, look at the clock before agreeing.) Basically, J Rohner's company, Inteligentry, is offering a popper kit, which, if it's real, would actually be an engine, albeit a single-stroke one. $350 for the electronics package, including coils and spark plugs, and the kit includes plans for the piston assembly, and the fuel formula (taken from the patent). He claims this device is what they used to test fuel and the electronic protocol to fire the thing, and that is sensible and believable. However, unlike the competing Bob Rohner, John hasn't shown even a single firing of the Popper. Caveat emptor. I consider that we would need to be aware of the possibility that the John Rohner kit is actually a Bob Rohner killer, aimed at discrediting his brother when the kit fails. Crazy? Sure. *But these people are crazy. At least John is, that's obvious. That has nothing to do with whether or not his various claims are true. Some of them might be. Indeed, he might be responding to long-standing family dysfunction. Lots of crazy people are. I still don't see any significant evidence for nuclear. The level of energy released is sometimes cited as evidence for nuclear, but really all that, if established, would show is not chemical. Some brown powder isn't evidence for nuclear unless we actually know what the powder is. Cold fusion was not actually established as nuclear until helium was identified as the predominant ash. Then we could say it was nuclear, and we could even go further because of the specific value of the correlation between anomalous heat and helium production. It was fusion. Because I'm being watched (they are under every rock), I'll point out that fusion does not just refer to d-d fusion, and the correlation value (estimated at 25+/-5 MeV/He-4 by Storms, 2007 and 2010) would result from any reaction that converts deuterium to helium, no matter what intermediates are involved. That conversion is called fusion. Fusion is the term for a whole class of reactions, not just one. However, interesting speculation, perhaps: This type fusion
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:40 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Fast Recomb? Fast recombination of the H2 and O2 back into water and heat. T
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
Our IC engine testing euphemism for fires and explosions was a thermal event On 18 August 2012 14:49, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:40 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Fast Recomb? Fast recombination of the H2 and O2 back into water and heat. T
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
At 11:17 PM 8/16/2012, Axil Axil wrote: I am putting two and two together here. The Papp engine ash was a brown powder. Thanks for letting us know that this was your speculation, not a conclusion from strong evidence. J Ronner talks about a two helium atom fusion process. And what J Rohner (I presume that was a mispelling) says about the process has as much -- or does it have more -- reliability than an angry monkey typiing would have? Rohner has said a lot that quite simply is not true when investigated. It starts with simple things, such as the availability of videos. But it continues with many examples of stuff that was, ah, a tad exaggerated. If we can call claiming to have a running test engines is an exaggeration if you only have test engines that may not have run at all. He's admitted to that whopper (last year, to PESN). Or claiming to have 2 MIT PhDs, but, when challenged, apparently, says they are secret and his resume now claims his education is irrelevant. Fine. It might be irrelevant, but why then did he claim the PhDs? Why did he claim the running test engines? He says why. He had to say *something* or investors would bail. That's called fraud. Saying what you think an investor wants to hear, when it isn't the truth, to induce them to maintain or make investments. Someone will nail him on this, I suspect, eventually. (However, he might be adequately covered by various agreements. We have to remember that it isn't illegal to lie, under some conditions. I'm just saying that we can't rely on what the man says for anything. If he says it's 3 PM, look at the clock before agreeing.) Basically, J Rohner's company, Inteligentry, is offering a popper kit, which, if it's real, would actually be an engine, albeit a single-stroke one. $350 for the electronics package, including coils and spark plugs, and the kit includes plans for the piston assembly, and the fuel formula (taken from the patent). He claims this device is what they used to test fuel and the electronic protocol to fire the thing, and that is sensible and believable. However, unlike the competing Bob Rohner, John hasn't shown even a single firing of the Popper. Caveat emptor. I consider that we would need to be aware of the possibility that the John Rohner kit is actually a Bob Rohner killer, aimed at discrediting his brother when the kit fails. Crazy? Sure. *But these people are crazy. At least John is, that's obvious. That has nothing to do with whether or not his various claims are true. Some of them might be. Indeed, he might be responding to long-standing family dysfunction. Lots of crazy people are. I still don't see any significant evidence for nuclear. The level of energy released is sometimes cited as evidence for nuclear, but really all that, if established, would show is not chemical. Some brown powder isn't evidence for nuclear unless we actually know what the powder is. Cold fusion was not actually established as nuclear until helium was identified as the predominant ash. Then we could say it was nuclear, and we could even go further because of the specific value of the correlation between anomalous heat and helium production. It was fusion. Because I'm being watched (they are under every rock), I'll point out that fusion does not just refer to d-d fusion, and the correlation value (estimated at 25+/-5 MeV/He-4 by Storms, 2007 and 2010) would result from any reaction that converts deuterium to helium, no matter what intermediates are involved. That conversion is called fusion. Fusion is the term for a whole class of reactions, not just one. However, interesting speculation, perhaps: This type fusion does not produce energy in fusing to boron8 atoms. But all boron isotopes under B11 will decay by fission. There are two conceivable ways in which the excited state in boron-8 could decay by emitting one proton, making a brief pit stop at beryllium-7. However, one of these ways is energy forbidden and the other does not conserve isospin. While conserving isospin is not a hard and fast rule, if there is any other way for the nucleus to decay, it will jump at that alternative. In this case the alternative, one that is both energy and isospin allowed, is to decay by emitting two protons in one step to an excited state in lithium-6, which is itself an isobaric-analog of the ground state of helium-6. Recently, this decay mode was observed for the first time by emitting two protons at the same time between isobaric analog states. To make a long story short, the fusion of 2 He atoms will possibly end up with a number of sub atomic particles and one helium atom. Another energetic path (the triple proton chain) is as follows: 1. B8 - Be8 + positron + neutrino (followed by spontaneous decay...) 2. Be8 - 2He4(18.074 MeV) There is some unknowns involving boron 8 decay as follows: For example, nuclei of boron-8 in the sun decay by spitting out an
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
If you just sell plans for poppers, electronic circuit boards and licenses for the technology, then all of the liability rests with the OEM's they drag in. They probably give them a short demo in the shop before the thing malfunctions. I notice everytime I see a demo it is behind explosion proof glass. Oddity and UNCERTAINTY Stewart On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 11:17 PM 8/16/2012, Axil Axil wrote: I am putting two and two together here. The Papp engine ash was a brown powder. Thanks for letting us know that this was your speculation, not a conclusion from strong evidence. J Ronner talks about a two helium atom fusion process. And what J Rohner (I presume that was a mispelling) says about the process has as much -- or does it have more -- reliability than an angry monkey typiing would have? Rohner has said a lot that quite simply is not true when investigated. It starts with simple things, such as the availability of videos. But it continues with many examples of stuff that was, ah, a tad exaggerated. If we can call claiming to have a running test engines is an exaggeration if you only have test engines that may not have run at all. He's admitted to that whopper (last year, to PESN). Or claiming to have 2 MIT PhDs, but, when challenged, apparently, says they are secret and his resume now claims his education is irrelevant. Fine. It might be irrelevant, but why then did he claim the PhDs? Why did he claim the running test engines? He says why. He had to say *something* or investors would bail. That's called fraud. Saying what you think an investor wants to hear, when it isn't the truth, to induce them to maintain or make investments. Someone will nail him on this, I suspect, eventually. (However, he might be adequately covered by various agreements. We have to remember that it isn't illegal to lie, under some conditions. I'm just saying that we can't rely on what the man says for anything. If he says it's 3 PM, look at the clock before agreeing.) Basically, J Rohner's company, Inteligentry, is offering a popper kit, which, if it's real, would actually be an engine, albeit a single-stroke one. $350 for the electronics package, including coils and spark plugs, and the kit includes plans for the piston assembly, and the fuel formula (taken from the patent). He claims this device is what they used to test fuel and the electronic protocol to fire the thing, and that is sensible and believable. However, unlike the competing Bob Rohner, John hasn't shown even a single firing of the Popper. Caveat emptor. I consider that we would need to be aware of the possibility that the John Rohner kit is actually a Bob Rohner killer, aimed at discrediting his brother when the kit fails. Crazy? Sure. *But these people are crazy. At least John is, that's obvious. That has nothing to do with whether or not his various claims are true. Some of them might be. Indeed, he might be responding to long-standing family dysfunction. Lots of crazy people are. I still don't see any significant evidence for nuclear. The level of energy released is sometimes cited as evidence for nuclear, but really all that, if established, would show is not chemical. Some brown powder isn't evidence for nuclear unless we actually know what the powder is. Cold fusion was not actually established as nuclear until helium was identified as the predominant ash. Then we could say it was nuclear, and we could even go further because of the specific value of the correlation between anomalous heat and helium production. It was fusion. Because I'm being watched (they are under every rock), I'll point out that fusion does not just refer to d-d fusion, and the correlation value (estimated at 25+/-5 MeV/He-4 by Storms, 2007 and 2010) would result from any reaction that converts deuterium to helium, no matter what intermediates are involved. That conversion is called fusion. Fusion is the term for a whole class of reactions, not just one. However, interesting speculation, perhaps: This type fusion does not produce energy in fusing to boron8 atoms. But all boron isotopes under B11 will decay by fission. There are two conceivable ways in which the excited state in boron-8 could decay by emitting one proton, making a brief pit stop at beryllium-7. However, one of these ways is energy forbidden and the other does not conserve isospin. While conserving isospin is not a hard and fast rule, if there is any other way for the nucleus to decay, it will jump at that alternative. In this case the alternative, one that is both energy and isospin allowed, is to decay by emitting two protons in one step to an excited state in lithium-6, which is itself an isobaric-analog of the ground state of helium-6. Recently, this decay mode was observed for the first time by emitting two protons at the same time between isobaric analog states. To
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
In a post today integral sited a death of a LENR developer in an explosion. The take away, LENR is dangerous when the power is high. It is best to be as safe as you can. Axil On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:11 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: If you just sell plans for poppers, electronic circuit boards and licenses for the technology, then all of the liability rests with the OEM's they drag in. They probably give them a short demo in the shop before the thing malfunctions. I notice everytime I see a demo it is behind explosion proof glass. Oddity and UNCERTAINTY Stewart On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 11:17 PM 8/16/2012, Axil Axil wrote: I am putting two and two together here. The Papp engine ash was a brown powder. Thanks for letting us know that this was your speculation, not a conclusion from strong evidence. J Ronner talks about a two helium atom fusion process. And what J Rohner (I presume that was a mispelling) says about the process has as much -- or does it have more -- reliability than an angry monkey typiing would have? Rohner has said a lot that quite simply is not true when investigated. It starts with simple things, such as the availability of videos. But it continues with many examples of stuff that was, ah, a tad exaggerated. If we can call claiming to have a running test engines is an exaggeration if you only have test engines that may not have run at all. He's admitted to that whopper (last year, to PESN). Or claiming to have 2 MIT PhDs, but, when challenged, apparently, says they are secret and his resume now claims his education is irrelevant. Fine. It might be irrelevant, but why then did he claim the PhDs? Why did he claim the running test engines? He says why. He had to say *something* or investors would bail. That's called fraud. Saying what you think an investor wants to hear, when it isn't the truth, to induce them to maintain or make investments. Someone will nail him on this, I suspect, eventually. (However, he might be adequately covered by various agreements. We have to remember that it isn't illegal to lie, under some conditions. I'm just saying that we can't rely on what the man says for anything. If he says it's 3 PM, look at the clock before agreeing.) Basically, J Rohner's company, Inteligentry, is offering a popper kit, which, if it's real, would actually be an engine, albeit a single-stroke one. $350 for the electronics package, including coils and spark plugs, and the kit includes plans for the piston assembly, and the fuel formula (taken from the patent). He claims this device is what they used to test fuel and the electronic protocol to fire the thing, and that is sensible and believable. However, unlike the competing Bob Rohner, John hasn't shown even a single firing of the Popper. Caveat emptor. I consider that we would need to be aware of the possibility that the John Rohner kit is actually a Bob Rohner killer, aimed at discrediting his brother when the kit fails. Crazy? Sure. *But these people are crazy. At least John is, that's obvious. That has nothing to do with whether or not his various claims are true. Some of them might be. Indeed, he might be responding to long-standing family dysfunction. Lots of crazy people are. I still don't see any significant evidence for nuclear. The level of energy released is sometimes cited as evidence for nuclear, but really all that, if established, would show is not chemical. Some brown powder isn't evidence for nuclear unless we actually know what the powder is. Cold fusion was not actually established as nuclear until helium was identified as the predominant ash. Then we could say it was nuclear, and we could even go further because of the specific value of the correlation between anomalous heat and helium production. It was fusion. Because I'm being watched (they are under every rock), I'll point out that fusion does not just refer to d-d fusion, and the correlation value (estimated at 25+/-5 MeV/He-4 by Storms, 2007 and 2010) would result from any reaction that converts deuterium to helium, no matter what intermediates are involved. That conversion is called fusion. Fusion is the term for a whole class of reactions, not just one. However, interesting speculation, perhaps: This type fusion does not produce energy in fusing to boron8 atoms. But all boron isotopes under B11 will decay by fission. There are two conceivable ways in which the excited state in boron-8 could decay by emitting one proton, making a brief pit stop at beryllium-7. However, one of these ways is energy forbidden and the other does not conserve isospin. While conserving isospin is not a hard and fast rule, if there is any other way for the nucleus to decay, it will jump at that alternative. In this case the alternative, one that is both energy and isospin allowed, is to decay by emitting two
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
That death was from a chemical explosion. SRI, recombiner gunked up, researcher picked up the cell, gunk fell off, fast recomb,. Bang! He died, McKubre still has glass in him. As I recall reading. Closed cells are dangerous. LENR *could* be dangerous. Unreliable can cut both ways. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2012, at 4:22 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: In a post today integral sited a death of a LENR developer in an explosion. The take away, LENR is dangerous when the power is high. It is best to be as safe as you can. Axil On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:11 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: If you just sell plans for poppers, electronic circuit boards and licenses for the technology, then all of the liability rests with the OEM's they drag in. They probably give them a short demo in the shop before the thing malfunctions. I notice everytime I see a demo it is behind explosion proof glass. Oddity and UNCERTAINTY Stewart On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: At 11:17 PM 8/16/2012, Axil Axil wrote: I am putting two and two together here. The Papp engine ash was a brown powder. Thanks for letting us know that this was your speculation, not a conclusion from strong evidence. J Ronner talks about a two helium atom fusion process. And what J Rohner (I presume that was a mispelling) says about the process has as much -- or does it have more -- reliability than an angry monkey typiing would have? Rohner has said a lot that quite simply is not true when investigated. It starts with simple things, such as the availability of videos. But it continues with many examples of stuff that was, ah, a tad exaggerated. If we can call claiming to have a running test engines is an exaggeration if you only have test engines that may not have run at all. He's admitted to that whopper (last year, to PESN). Or claiming to have 2 MIT PhDs, but, when challenged, apparently, says they are secret and his resume now claims his education is irrelevant. Fine. It might be irrelevant, but why then did he claim the PhDs? Why did he claim the running test engines? He says why. He had to say *something* or investors would bail. That's called fraud. Saying what you think an investor wants to hear, when it isn't the truth, to induce them to maintain or make investments. Someone will nail him on this, I suspect, eventually. (However, he might be adequately covered by various agreements. We have to remember that it isn't illegal to lie, under some conditions. I'm just saying that we can't rely on what the man says for anything. If he says it's 3 PM, look at the clock before agreeing.) Basically, J Rohner's company, Inteligentry, is offering a popper kit, which, if it's real, would actually be an engine, albeit a single-stroke one. $350 for the electronics package, including coils and spark plugs, and the kit includes plans for the piston assembly, and the fuel formula (taken from the patent). He claims this device is what they used to test fuel and the electronic protocol to fire the thing, and that is sensible and believable. However, unlike the competing Bob Rohner, John hasn't shown even a single firing of the Popper. Caveat emptor. I consider that we would need to be aware of the possibility that the John Rohner kit is actually a Bob Rohner killer, aimed at discrediting his brother when the kit fails. Crazy? Sure. *But these people are crazy. At least John is, that's obvious. That has nothing to do with whether or not his various claims are true. Some of them might be. Indeed, he might be responding to long-standing family dysfunction. Lots of crazy people are. I still don't see any significant evidence for nuclear. The level of energy released is sometimes cited as evidence for nuclear, but really all that, if established, would show is not chemical. Some brown powder isn't evidence for nuclear unless we actually know what the powder is. Cold fusion was not actually established as nuclear until helium was identified as the predominant ash. Then we could say it was nuclear, and we could even go further because of the specific value of the correlation between anomalous heat and helium production. It was fusion. Because I'm being watched (they are under every rock), I'll point out that fusion does not just refer to d-d fusion, and the correlation value (estimated at 25+/-5 MeV/He-4 by Storms, 2007 and 2010) would result from any reaction that converts deuterium to helium, no matter what intermediates are involved. That conversion is called fusion. Fusion is the term for a whole class of reactions, not just one. However, interesting speculation, perhaps: This type fusion does not produce energy in fusing to boron8 atoms. But all boron isotopes under B11 will decay by fission. There are two conceivable ways in which the
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
At 10:44 PM 8/15/2012, Axil Axil wrote: Most of all, Papp himself seemed to be the obstacle. In order to have a commercial engine, he needed to disclose how it worked, and he was terrified that if he disclosed it, he'd be cheated. Bob Rohner once asked Papp why he was not interested in commercializing the Papp engine. Papp told him that he could get all the money he needed anytime he wanted it and he was living very well with things the way they were.. The SCAM that is based on a real system is far more effective than one that is not. A working prototype is a lifelong meal ticket. If the prototype technology is released, the easy money comes to an end. The inventor is moved out of the picture buy the big money interests. Commersialization means work and worries and keeping stockholders happy. One must not confuse the SCAM with the system; these two things must be considered separately with one not diminishing the other. Of course, Axil. However, a prototype that *appears to work* can also be a meal ticket. Papp is intriguing because the demonstrations were so dramatic. However, and I've made this point about Rossi, it is *always* possible to fake a demonstration, in ways that observers cannot detect, unless they get lucky. That's why we look for independent reproduction or verification. Papp didn't rip off big money interests. He ripped off smaller investors who lost what they put in. Some of them continued to believe in his engine. Absolutely, I cannot claim that the engine doesn't work, as if that were a fact. No, the appearance is that it works. The same is true for Rossi, by the way. What skeptics showed (and this includes myself and Krivit) was that the excess heat from Rossi could be as low as zero, given flaws in the demonstrations. The affair shows how experts, even, can be fooled by appearances. We did not show that there actually was no excess heat in all demonstrations. We have no results from independent testing of Rossi's Energy Catalyzers. He could easily arrange it. He could do it in ways that would be reasonably safe as far as his intellectual property is concerned. But he doesn't. We cannot treat Rossi's work as proof that commercial application of LENR has been achieved. And that's just as true -- or was true -- of the Papp engine. Papp was capable of faking stuff, he faked his submarine accident -- at considerable risk to himself. He likely faked his kidnapping, shooting himself in the shoulder. If he would go that far to avoid an admission or appearance of failure, how far would he go with regard to possible faking of a demonstration? Something actually simpler, and certainly less painful. There are now new people working with the Papp engine and claiming success. This remains true: there is -- *as yet* -- no independent verification. There have been *demonstrations* showing very substantial work done. On the face of it, the Papp engine is amazing. It is no wonder there is interest. However, *no independent verification*. Someone financially interested in the engine isn't truly independent. I agree that it does increase credibility. I noticed one thing about some of the videos. No specific claim was made. Bob Rohner allowed his interviewer to wax eloquent about how this was going to revolutionize the planet, and Bob just stood there. PlasmERG, however, has announced a kit. http://plasmerg.com/kits.html Brilliant! Has anyone built one of these? It is looks quite possible to adequately demonstrate what we might call the Papp Effect, if this kit works. One could build the kit and measure the work done against that spring, and, as well, measure the energy in. Not difficult at all. Because the investment is low, we are likely to know soon, unless the kit is sold with a horrific non-disclosure agreement, but if it is, we'll also know that soon. Someone will get to the point of actually buying the kit, be shown the non-disclosure agreement, and back out, refuse to sign it, and tell us about it. Very low investment is the key here. With Papp, people were putting in $100,000 or more. And they got nothing. Here, you get, at worst, a nifty toy. As I wrote before, some people will spend this much for entertainment. Some skeptics, to debunk something, have spent much more than this. Unfortunately, the kit isn't as cheap as it looks. See below. Note, the site implies that total investment, including electronics, is $500. There is a catch. The $350 kit doesn't include the fuel, and it doesn't include the mechanical parts, i.e., the piston, etc. The kit documents are at http://plasmerg.com/_files/PopperKit.zip The kit is just the electronics. That small circuit board plus the coils and electrodes (modified spark plugs?). The flyer, page 1, gives the ingredients of the fuel, with percentages. Not stated if these are by weight or volume. The gases are helium, 35.6%; neon, 26.3%, argon, 16.9%, krypton,
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
Magnetic forces work on conductive media. The majority of the time the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 6:45 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: *The majority of the time there is no magnetic confinement* I was under the impression that the coils were active all the time. Did someone tell you something different? Cheers: Axil On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:32 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: A correct statement might be that John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the helium located axially at the center of the cylinder. The majority of the time there is no magnetic confinement. The only reason helium _might_ remain at the center of the cylinder is that, being of lower molecular weight, it is more easily driven to the center during the brief periods of axial confinement and, once there, the deionized state helium atoms will have to diffuse outward toward the edges. However, even this hope is unlikely to be true since during the compression stroke the helium gas is undergoing turbulence and therefore is likely highly mixed with the consequent migration to the edges of the cylinder. On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the noble gas located axially at the center of the cylinder. This might keep the gases away from the edge of the piston. What this might mean is that the gas is well contained while the engine is running. The coil provides a cylinder within the cylinder. But while the engine is off, the gas may find a path around the rings and may need a recharge. This means that the engine must run continually. Rohner does not seem to be much concerned about the rings. He said he will replace the two ring system with a single ring in the final product. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Michael Foster mf...@yahoo.com wrote: I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
Critically, during the compression stroke the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. The helium atoms are likely very thoroughly mixed, although I'm open to arguments to the contrary. Moreover, when I talked to Bob, he said that the current through the coils was very low. I don't recall what the current was, but to achieve significant magnetic confinement you need high currents. On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:55 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Magnetic forces work on conductive media. The majority of the time the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 6:45 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: *The majority of the time there is no magnetic confinement* I was under the impression that the coils were active all the time. Did someone tell you something different? Cheers: Axil On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:32 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: A correct statement might be that John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the helium located axially at the center of the cylinder. The majority of the time there is no magnetic confinement. The only reason helium _might_ remain at the center of the cylinder is that, being of lower molecular weight, it is more easily driven to the center during the brief periods of axial confinement and, once there, the deionized state helium atoms will have to diffuse outward toward the edges. However, even this hope is unlikely to be true since during the compression stroke the helium gas is undergoing turbulence and therefore is likely highly mixed with the consequent migration to the edges of the cylinder. On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the noble gas located axially at the center of the cylinder. This might keep the gases away from the edge of the piston. What this might mean is that the gas is well contained while the engine is running. The coil provides a cylinder within the cylinder. But while the engine is off, the gas may find a path around the rings and may need a recharge. This means that the engine must run continually. Rohner does not seem to be much concerned about the rings. He said he will replace the two ring system with a single ring in the final product. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Michael Foster mf...@yahoo.comwrote: I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
*Critically, during the compression stroke the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. The helium atoms are likely very thoroughly mixed, although I'm open to arguments to the contrary.* In the John Rohner cycle, he first excites the noble gases with a radio frequency generator before the piston starts to move into compression. Xenon is easy to excite because it binding energy is low: many orders of magnitude lower than H2. The RF also produces clusters which strongly interact because they have good dipole characteristics. *Moreover, when I talked to Bob, he said that the current through the coils was very low. I don't recall what the current was, but to achieve significant magnetic confinement you need high currents.* The coils are not used to compress the gas to the state of fusion as in standard fusion technology. Their purpose is to keep the plasma just off the sides of the cylinder and away from the compression rings. These modest requirements don’t call for high coil performance. cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 1:43 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Critically, during the compression stroke the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. The helium atoms are likely very thoroughly mixed, although I'm open to arguments to the contrary. Moreover, when I talked to Bob, he said that the current through the coils was very low. I don't recall what the current was, but to achieve significant magnetic confinement you need high currents. On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:55 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Magnetic forces work on conductive media. The majority of the time the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 6:45 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: *The majority of the time there is no magnetic confinement* I was under the impression that the coils were active all the time. Did someone tell you something different? Cheers: Axil On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:32 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: A correct statement might be that John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the helium located axially at the center of the cylinder. The majority of the time there is no magnetic confinement. The only reason helium _might_ remain at the center of the cylinder is that, being of lower molecular weight, it is more easily driven to the center during the brief periods of axial confinement and, once there, the deionized state helium atoms will have to diffuse outward toward the edges. However, even this hope is unlikely to be true since during the compression stroke the helium gas is undergoing turbulence and therefore is likely highly mixed with the consequent migration to the edges of the cylinder. On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the noble gas located axially at the center of the cylinder. This might keep the gases away from the edge of the piston. What this might mean is that the gas is well contained while the engine is running. The coil provides a cylinder within the cylinder. But while the engine is off, the gas may find a path around the rings and may need a recharge. This means that the engine must run continually. Rohner does not seem to be much concerned about the rings. He said he will replace the two ring system with a single ring in the final product. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Michael Foster mf...@yahoo.comwrote: I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: In the John Rohner cycle, he first excites the noble gases with a radio frequency generator before the piston starts to move into compression. Xenon is easy to excite because it binding energy is low: many orders of magnitude lower than H2. If so, then it would tend to move the xenon toward the center allowing the non-ionized helium to diffuse outward (which it will tend to do quickly due to its lower molecular weight). There would, of course, be a kind of ionic wind dragging the helium along with the xenon ions but it isn't clear to what the distribution of helium atoms would be although it is clear that the walls of the container would be protected from ions (remembering that the helium atoms aren't ionized).
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In the noble gas cluster formation process, any combination of noble gas elements is possible. Helium could well be affixed inside various noble gas clusters types. In my opinion understanding noble gas cluster formation is key to understanding the Papp reaction. Cheers:Axil On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:56 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: In the John Rohner cycle, he first excites the noble gases with a radio frequency generator before the piston starts to move into compression. Xenon is easy to excite because it binding energy is low: many orders of magnitude lower than H2. If so, then it would tend to move the xenon toward the center allowing the non-ionized helium to diffuse outward (which it will tend to do quickly due to its lower molecular weight). There would, of course, be a kind of ionic wind dragging the helium along with the xenon ions but it isn't clear to what the distribution of helium atoms would be although it is clear that the walls of the container would be protected from ions (remembering that the helium atoms aren't ionized).
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
At 12:43 PM 8/16/2012, James Bowery wrote: Critically, during the compression stroke the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. The helium atoms are likely very thoroughly mixed, although I'm open to arguments to the contrary. Moreover, when I talked to Bob, he said that the current through the coils was very low. I don't recall what the current was, but to achieve significant magnetic confinement you need high currents. I thought the purpose of the coils was to generate the high voltages for the spark.
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
I think the outer coils around the cylinder were to keep the ions contained in some fashion. There was mention of extracting some of the induced energy of the coils to be returned to the spark system, but not as the main gap spark initiator. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 9:04 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi At 12:43 PM 8/16/2012, James Bowery wrote: Critically, during the compression stroke the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. The helium atoms are likely very thoroughly mixed, although I'm open to arguments to the contrary. Moreover, when I talked to Bob, he said that the current through the coils was very low. I don't recall what the current was, but to achieve significant magnetic confinement you need high currents. I thought the purpose of the coils was to generate the high voltages for the spark.
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JR uses on the plug 110KV on the plug ignition cables. Cheers:Axil On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 12:43 PM 8/16/2012, James Bowery wrote: Critically, during the compression stroke the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. The helium atoms are likely very thoroughly mixed, although I'm open to arguments to the contrary. Moreover, when I talked to Bob, he said that the current through the coils was very low. I don't recall what the current was, but to achieve significant magnetic confinement you need high currents. I thought the purpose of the coils was to generate the high voltages for the spark.
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
At 05:04 PM 8/15/2012, Axil Axil wrote: The refuel process adds noble gas instead of replacing it. This on-the-fly refuel means that there is no buildup of reaction ash as is normal in all other LENR devices. If this thing works, it doesn't sound at all like LENR. I don't see any basis for nuclear. So far.
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The Papp engine produced boron as ash, but it was grossly inefficient. J Rohner improved the timing to eliminate the atomic pollution through nuclear recombination. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 05:04 PM 8/15/2012, Axil Axil wrote: The refuel process adds noble gas instead of replacing it. This on-the-fly refuel means that there is no buildup of reaction ash as is normal in all other LENR devices. If this thing works, it doesn't sound at all like LENR. I don't see any basis for nuclear. So far.
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One of their documents said one was for containment and the other for compression (around the spark plugs) On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 12:43 PM 8/16/2012, James Bowery wrote: Critically, during the compression stroke the noble gasses are not in a conductive state. The helium atoms are likely very thoroughly mixed, although I'm open to arguments to the contrary. Moreover, when I talked to Bob, he said that the current through the coils was very low. I don't recall what the current was, but to achieve significant magnetic confinement you need high currents. I thought the purpose of the coils was to generate the high voltages for the spark.
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Source for your info on boron? If adjusted out somehow, what is the ash now? Does it vary with settings? Do we know? How? Sent from my iPhone On Aug 16, 2012, at 9:53 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The Papp engine produced boron as ash, but it was grossly inefficient. J Rohner improved the timing to eliminate the atomic pollution through nuclear recombination. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: At 05:04 PM 8/15/2012, Axil Axil wrote: The refuel process adds noble gas instead of replacing it. This on- the-fly refuel means that there is no buildup of reaction ash as is normal in all other LENR devices. If this thing works, it doesn't sound at all like LENR. I don't see any basis for nuclear. So far.
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I am putting two and two together here. The Papp engine ash was a brown powder. J Ronner talks about a two helium atom fusion process. This type fusion does not produce energy in fusing to boron8 atoms. But all boron isotopes under B11 will decay by fission. There are two conceivable ways in which the excited state in boron-8 could decay by emitting one proton, making a brief pit stop at beryllium-7. However, one of these ways is energy forbidden and the other does not conserve isospin. While conserving isospin is not a hard and fast rule, if there is any other way for the nucleus to decay, it will jump at that alternative. In this case the alternative, one that is both energy and isospin allowed, is to decay by emitting two protons in one step to an excited state in lithium-6, which is itself an isobaric-analog of the ground state of helium-6. Recently, this decay mode was observed for the first time by emitting two protons at the same time between isobaric analog states. To make a long story short, the fusion of 2 He atoms will possibly end up with a number of sub atomic particles and one helium atom. Another energetic path (the triple proton chain) is as follows: 1. B8 - Be8 + positron + neutrino (followed by spontaneous decay...) 2. Be8 - 2He4(18.074 MeV) There is some unknowns involving boron 8 decay as follows: For example, nuclei of boron-8 in the sun decay by spitting out an antielectron and an electron neutrino, and theorists can predict the number of such low-energy solar neutrinos. Researchers measured the actual number in the 1960s, counting rare events in which a chlorine nucleus in a tank of dry-cleaning fluid absorbed an electron neutrino and emitted an electron. They found only one-third as many electron neutrinos as predicted, suggesting that the particles were turning into something else during their trip from the sun to Earth. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: Source for your info on boron? If adjusted out somehow, what is the ash now? Does it vary with settings? Do we know? How? Sent from my iPhone On Aug 16, 2012, at 9:53 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The Papp engine produced boron as ash, but it was grossly inefficient. J Rohner improved the timing to eliminate the atomic pollution through nuclear recombination. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: At 05:04 PM 8/15/2012, Axil Axil wrote: The refuel process adds noble gas instead of replacing it. This on-the-fly refuel means that there is no buildup of reaction ash as is normal in all other LENR devices. If this thing works, it doesn't sound at all like LENR. I don't see any basis for nuclear. So far.
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
At 04:29 PM 8/14/2012, Michael Foster wrote: The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. Both the new patent application and John Rohner's descrpition http://pesn.com/2009/07/18/9501554_Plasma_Transition_Process_motor_system/ say there is a gas cannister so that the engine can be recharged on the fly : The same volume of gas mixture is used for reaction over and over again for an extended period of time. Loss of gas mixture is not considered because of the increased pressure during the power stroke and the vacuum during the non power stroke. So any gas leaking past the sealing rings of the pistons will be very small. The PlasmERG controller also has a refuel action to keep this from being a field problem. PlasmERG's fuel cans look like the air conditioner refueler freon cans used to refill a car air conditioner. They are screwed in and used as needed. . They also sense cylinder reaction power output, so they know when to refuel; and they expect to be able to do this automatically on the run.
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
The refuel process adds noble gas instead of replacing it. This on-the-fly refuel means that there is no buildup of reaction ash as is normal in all other LENR devices. Cheers:Axil On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: At 04:29 PM 8/14/2012, Michael Foster wrote: The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. Both the new patent application and John Rohner's descrpition http://pesn.com/2009/07/18/**9501554_Plasma_Transition_** Process_motor_system/http://pesn.com/2009/07/18/9501554_Plasma_Transition_Process_motor_system/ say there is a gas cannister so that the engine can be recharged on the fly : The same volume of gas mixture is used for reaction over and over again for an extended period of time. Loss of gas mixture is not considered because of the increased pressure during the power stroke and the vacuum during the non power stroke. So any gas leaking past the sealing rings of the pistons will be very small. The PlasmERG controller also has a refuel action to keep this from being a field problem. PlasmERG's fuel cans look like the air conditioner refueler freon cans used to refill a car air conditioner. They are screwed in and used as needed. . They also sense cylinder reaction power output, so they know when to refuel; and they expect to be able to do this automatically on the run.
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
A correct statement might be that John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the helium located axially at the center of the cylinder. The majority of the time there is no magnetic confinement. The only reason helium _might_ remain at the center of the cylinder is that, being of lower molecular weight, it is more easily driven to the center during the brief periods of axial confinement and, once there, the deionized state helium atoms will have to diffuse outward toward the edges. However, even this hope is unlikely to be true since during the compression stroke the helium gas is undergoing turbulence and therefore is likely highly mixed with the consequent migration to the edges of the cylinder. On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the noble gas located axially at the center of the cylinder. This might keep the gases away from the edge of the piston. What this might mean is that the gas is well contained while the engine is running. The coil provides a cylinder within the cylinder. But while the engine is off, the gas may find a path around the rings and may need a recharge. This means that the engine must run continually. Rohner does not seem to be much concerned about the rings. He said he will replace the two ring system with a single ring in the final product. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Michael Foster mf...@yahoo.com wrote: I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
*The majority of the time there is no magnetic confinement* I was under the impression that the coils were active all the time. Did someone tell you something different? Cheers: Axil On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:32 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: A correct statement might be that John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the helium located axially at the center of the cylinder. The majority of the time there is no magnetic confinement. The only reason helium _might_ remain at the center of the cylinder is that, being of lower molecular weight, it is more easily driven to the center during the brief periods of axial confinement and, once there, the deionized state helium atoms will have to diffuse outward toward the edges. However, even this hope is unlikely to be true since during the compression stroke the helium gas is undergoing turbulence and therefore is likely highly mixed with the consequent migration to the edges of the cylinder. On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the noble gas located axially at the center of the cylinder. This might keep the gases away from the edge of the piston. What this might mean is that the gas is well contained while the engine is running. The coil provides a cylinder within the cylinder. But while the engine is off, the gas may find a path around the rings and may need a recharge. This means that the engine must run continually. Rohner does not seem to be much concerned about the rings. He said he will replace the two ring system with a single ring in the final product. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Michael Foster mf...@yahoo.com wrote: I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
I watched a video interview of Rohner. It was interesting to see his apparatus, the single cylinder that he fires by pushing a button, and the method of measuring the force applied by the cylinder firing. If that force is even over the distance of motion of the cylinder, which was shown and which would be easily measured, then the energy release involved in the chamber reaction is calculable. The interview was done by a fellow who has a totally new theory of physics that purports to explain the Papp engine. However, he didn't actually show or ask the most important questions about the engine. How much energy is supplied by the spark plugs, with each stroke? And how much energy is shown by the measurement method? That is, for each cycle, what is the net energy release? There were other imnporant unasked questions. It was as if the fact that the piston moved was OMG! AMAZING! That, right there, served to nail it for me that this joker had no clue. Rohner himself seemed utterly inarticulate, which doesn't mean much. Lots of people can do stuff they can't explain in words. The history of the Papp engine should put all of us into a very cautious position. Lots of people, with Joseph Papp, were very, very impressed, and invested buckets of money. All lost, because of Papp's behavior. Papp, is seems very likely, faked his submarine accident, when he found that he couldn't do what he'd promised. He apparently later shot himself in the shoulder, claiming he was kidnapped and shot, when he was having trouble with a demonstration of the engine. If he would do those things, which we must consider possible, given his general behavior and personality, then he could have faked any of it. (people who are very afraid that others are going to cheat them will then justify whatever they, themselves, do, because it is necessary in context, lest they win.) I'm fully aware of the attractiveness of the Papp engine. The story of the Feynman fiasco lends credence to its reality. Yet there was always something that stopped Papp from completing his work and coming up with a real commercial product. Most of all, Papp himself seemed to be the obstacle. In order to have a commercial engine, he needed to disclose how it worked, and he was terrified that if he disclosed it, he'd be cheated. The extremity of this is that even when he was dying from cancer, he did not disclose the secret. We cannot, unfortunately, trust the Rohner claims. However, Rohner is totally welcome to create a demonstration kit, and apparently he is. If so, then we should all know very soon about whether or not this thing works. I have, in fact, suggested that Rossi and Defkalion, even if having problems creating a reliable system, ready for full commercialization, could patent and make *demonstration models* that don't have to be large-scale or even particularly reliable, as long as they are cheap enough and work often enough. Your kit doesn't work? No problem, return it and we will send you another. We see this with about 10% of the kits this month. We're getting better I'm not going to pony up a few hundred dollars and the necessary time to buy and build a kit, but there are people for whom that would be entertainment money. Be careful, though! Remember what happened to the hapless engineer who got creamed by a piece of the exploding Papp engine. Messy. If the kit is a single cylinder like in the video, maybe it's safe enough. But I'd still like to have some barrier between me and the cylinder, given that *we don't really know what's going on in there.* What if it blows up, seriously overproducing pressure, one time in a thousand? But with more experience, that possibility can be ruled out.
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
*Most of all, Papp himself seemed to be the obstacle. In order to have a commercial engine, he needed to disclose how it worked, and he was terrified that if he disclosed it, he'd be cheated.* Bob Rohner once asked Papp why he was not interested in commercializing the Papp engine. Papp told him that he could get all the money he needed anytime he wanted it and he was living very well with things the way they were.. The SCAM that is based on a real system is far more effective than one that is not. A working prototype is a lifelong meal ticket. If the prototype technology is released, the easy money comes to an end. The inventor is moved out of the picture buy the big money interests. Commersialization means work and worries and keeping stockholders happy. One must not confuse the SCAM with the system; these two things must be considered separately with one not diminishing the other. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: I watched a video interview of Rohner. It was interesting to see his apparatus, the single cylinder that he fires by pushing a button, and the method of measuring the force applied by the cylinder firing. If that force is even over the distance of motion of the cylinder, which was shown and which would be easily measured, then the energy release involved in the chamber reaction is calculable. The interview was done by a fellow who has a totally new theory of physics that purports to explain the Papp engine. However, he didn't actually show or ask the most important questions about the engine. How much energy is supplied by the spark plugs, with each stroke? And how much energy is shown by the measurement method? That is, for each cycle, what is the net energy release? There were other imnporant unasked questions. It was as if the fact that the piston moved was OMG! AMAZING! That, right there, served to nail it for me that this joker had no clue. Rohner himself seemed utterly inarticulate, which doesn't mean much. Lots of people can do stuff they can't explain in words. The history of the Papp engine should put all of us into a very cautious position. Lots of people, with Joseph Papp, were very, very impressed, and invested buckets of money. All lost, because of Papp's behavior. Papp, is seems very likely, faked his submarine accident, when he found that he couldn't do what he'd promised. He apparently later shot himself in the shoulder, claiming he was kidnapped and shot, when he was having trouble with a demonstration of the engine. If he would do those things, which we must consider possible, given his general behavior and personality, then he could have faked any of it. (people who are very afraid that others are going to cheat them will then justify whatever they, themselves, do, because it is necessary in context, lest they win.) I'm fully aware of the attractiveness of the Papp engine. The story of the Feynman fiasco lends credence to its reality. Yet there was always something that stopped Papp from completing his work and coming up with a real commercial product. Most of all, Papp himself seemed to be the obstacle. In order to have a commercial engine, he needed to disclose how it worked, and he was terrified that if he disclosed it, he'd be cheated. The extremity of this is that even when he was dying from cancer, he did not disclose the secret. We cannot, unfortunately, trust the Rohner claims. However, Rohner is totally welcome to create a demonstration kit, and apparently he is. If so, then we should all know very soon about whether or not this thing works. I have, in fact, suggested that Rossi and Defkalion, even if having problems creating a reliable system, ready for full commercialization, could patent and make *demonstration models* that don't have to be large-scale or even particularly reliable, as long as they are cheap enough and work often enough. Your kit doesn't work? No problem, return it and we will send you another. We see this with about 10% of the kits this month. We're getting better I'm not going to pony up a few hundred dollars and the necessary time to buy and build a kit, but there are people for whom that would be entertainment money. Be careful, though! Remember what happened to the hapless engineer who got creamed by a piece of the exploding Papp engine. Messy. If the kit is a single cylinder like in the video, maybe it's safe enough. But I'd still like to have some barrier between me and the cylinder, given that *we don't really know what's going on in there.* What if it blows up, seriously overproducing pressure, one time in a thousand? But with more experience, that possibility can be ruled out.
[Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
Until I see an energy balance on the engine or they run this in a closed loop, generating the power for the spark and such, and produce a significant amount of work out over a significant amount of time they have nothing. Don't buy a thing until you have proof that it works. - Original Message - From: Chemical Engineer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:18 AM Subject: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
Unless they back out of the PowerGEN conference in December, they should have a running system on display along with other OEMS using their engine. I am not ready to give them $50K On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Kelley Trezise ktrez2...@ssvecnet.comwrote: ** Until I see an energy balance on the engine or they run this in a closed loop, generating the power for the spark and such, and produce a significant amount of work out over a significant amount of time they have nothing. Don't buy a thing until you have proof that it works. - Original Message - *From:* Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:18 AM *Subject:* [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
The use of an adjustable spanner more or less settles this discussion. On 08/14/2012 11:17 AM, Chemical Engineer wrote: Unless they back out of the PowerGEN conference in December, they should have a running system on display along with other OEMS using their engine. I am not ready to give them $50K On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Kelley Trezise ktrez2...@ssvecnet.com mailto:ktrez2...@ssvecnet.com wrote: Until I see an energy balance on the engine or they run this in a closed loop, generating the power for the spark and such, and produce a significant amount of work out over a significant amount of time they have nothing. Don't buy a thing until you have proof that it works. - Original Message - *From:* Chemical Engineer mailto:cheme...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:18 AM *Subject:* [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
It is too bad that they did not show placement of the coils in this video. One thing to notice is that the cylinders are made of aluminum which will allow the steady state magnetic fields due to DC through the coils free access to the interior. The highly conductive cylinder walls would behave as a low pass filter that should prevent any high frequency coupling between the ions inside it and the coil outside. Every demonstration that I have seen suggests that the power pulse occurs very quickly. If this is indeed the situation then for all intents and purposes the magnetic field due to the coil is constant for this period. Do you know of any videos that clearly show the coil placement for this type of engine? Dave -Original Message- From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 6:25 am Subject: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7HVi5OVIc On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:26 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: It is too bad that they did not show placement of the coils in this video. One thing to notice is that the cylinders are made of aluminum which will allow the steady state magnetic fields due to DC through the coils free access to the interior. The highly conductive cylinder walls would behave as a low pass filter that should prevent any high frequency coupling between the ions inside it and the coil outside. Every demonstration that I have seen suggests that the power pulse occurs very quickly. If this is indeed the situation then for all intents and purposes the magnetic field due to the coil is constant for this period. Do you know of any videos that clearly show the coil placement for this type of engine? Dave -Original Message- From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 6:25 am Subject: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
The reason the balloon gets sucked in and the reason the coil gets hot is: The unit has created gremlins (collapsed matter). Over time, the gremlins are collapsing additional matter available in the vicinity until they have finally collapsed all the matter available. The coil is available to take charged particles away. Unfortunately, he may also be getting bombarded with quarks, gluons and other quantum goo that he is not even aware of... On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.comwrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7HVi5OVIc On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:26 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.comwrote: It is too bad that they did not show placement of the coils in this video. One thing to notice is that the cylinders are made of aluminum which will allow the steady state magnetic fields due to DC through the coils free access to the interior. The highly conductive cylinder walls would behave as a low pass filter that should prevent any high frequency coupling between the ions inside it and the coil outside. Every demonstration that I have seen suggests that the power pulse occurs very quickly. If this is indeed the situation then for all intents and purposes the magnetic field due to the coil is constant for this period. Do you know of any videos that clearly show the coil placement for this type of engine? Dave -Original Message- From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 6:25 am Subject: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
Thanks for the link. I saw it once then lost the location. One thing I notice is that this only happens when he uses a coil built to his interpretation of the original Papp design. Also, grounding the coil did not stop the strange heating effect. It was stated that the device needed the coil to be at the gap region and with current flowing in order to initiate the activity. He suggested that there was .5 volts across the coil when grounded. I assume that he broke the ground and then connected some form of meter across the turns. I suspect that this reading was not accurate and most likely external noise or possibly RF interference to his meter. Without making the measurements myself, I can only be skeptical as to the actual effects. The fact that one coil has the effect and another does not suggests that there is some form of resonance associated with the coil winding technique. It could be that the frequency at which this interaction takes place is beyond his measurement capacity. Coils have strange high frequency resonance due to distributed capacitance variation with winding and placement of the turns. No two coils are exactly alike at these high frequency effects especially if there is no special care given to achieve mechanical matching. Grounding of the two coil terminals could be of little consideration regarding extremely high frequency interactions since stray capacity could easily short out the terminals with respect to the frequency of importance. Many of the effects described suggest that this behavior is at an extremely high frequency and involves a coupling mechanism between the ions of the gas mixture and a uncontrolled resonance of the coil. The fact that the coil gets very hot implies an energy source of good power capacity. Since the effect continues without additional drive and light emission until the fuel has leaked out, I would be inclined to expect that some LENR process is at work. This particular process appears to involve a resonance of the coil and energy release by ions of nobel gasses. These two phenomena appear coupled electromagentically in a positive feedback arrangement. By this I mean that when extra energy is released by the ion cloud trapped within the electromagnetic field generated by currents within the coil a process occurs that tends to increase or decrease the field. That change in field then modifies the behavior of the active gas such that it emits additional energy. As I wrote before, this behavior is extremely important if it occurs as described. We would be amiss if we allowed such a process to escape detailed investigation. I would be willing to devote some of my time to follow up on this system since the possible applications are immense. Does anyone else feel as I do about the significance of this discovery? Dave -Original Message- From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 12:36 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7HVi5OVIc On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 11:26 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: It is too bad that they did not show placement of the coils in this video. One thing to notice is that the cylinders are made of aluminum which will allow the steady state magnetic fields due to DC through the coils free access to the interior. The highly conductive cylinder walls would behave as a low pass filter that should prevent any high frequency coupling between the ions inside it and the coil outside. Every demonstration that I have seen suggests that the power pulse occurs very quickly. If this is indeed the situation then for all intents and purposes the magnetic field due to the coil is constant for this period. Do you know of any videos that clearly show the coil placement for this type of engine? Dave -Original Message- From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 6:25 am Subject: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi - 1/2 volt grounded
On 8/14/2012 1:51 PM, David Roberson wrote: He suggested that there was .5 volts across the coil when grounded. I assume that he broke the ground and then connected some form of meter across the turns. I suspect that this reading was not accurate and most likely external noise or possibly RF interference to his meter. Without making the measurements myself, I can only be skeptical as to the actual effects. Dave To me it looks simpler: only that he grounded one coil terminal so that he could conveniently measure the voltage at the other. This /does /imply that the coil circuit is normally floating, which is possible if not likely. For an example of convenient, he may not have trusted the accuracy or bandwidth of the usual handheld meter, or if a scope he may not have the money for a scope that uses a balanced differential dual probe, and so needed a single-ended measurement,- and thus the grounding. Before differential scope inputs were affordable, and a certain waveform just had to be seen, we on occasion had to float our scope at whatever ungodly voltage and waveform was there, to accurately see what was across a component. Tore the safety ground out of the scope power cord, and then, /we were very careful! / lol. Yours, Ol' Bab, who was an engineer.
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi - 1/2 volt grounded
It depends upon what he refers to by grounding. I assumed that he was just connecting each of the inductor leads to ground initially. He of course figured that this would eliminate any current flowing, but induced currents would continue as is well established. I am not knowledgeable about his level of expertise in electronics so I thought that he then opened one of the grounded coil ends and measured the voltage with the assumption that now there should be no signal, thus the grounded description. The only way we will be able to determine what was seen is for a direct question to the measurer about his test configuration. Dave -Original Message- From: David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:20 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi - 1/2 volt grounded On 8/14/2012 1:51 PM, David Roberson wrote: He suggested that there was .5 volts across the coil when grounded. I assume that he broke the ground and then connected some form of meter across the turns. I suspect that this reading was not accurate and most likely external noise or possibly RF interference to his meter. Without making the measurements myself, I can only be skeptical as to the actual effects. Dave To me it looks simpler: only that he grounded one coil terminal sothat he could conveniently measure the voltage at the other. This doesimply that the coil circuit is normally floating, which ispossible if not likely. For an example of convenient, he may not have trusted the accuracyor bandwidth of the usual handheld meter, or if a scope he may nothave the money for a scope that uses a balanced differential dualprobe, and so needed a single-ended measurement,- and thus thegrounding. Before differential scope inputs were affordable, and a certainwaveform just had to be seen, we on occasion had to float ourscope at whatever ungodly voltage and waveform was there, toaccurately see what was across a component. Tore the safety groundout of the scope power cord, and then, we were very careful! lol. Yours, Ol' Bab, who was an engineer.
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the noble gas located axially at the center of the cylinder. This might keep the gases away from the edge of the piston. What this might mean is that the gas is well contained while the engine is running. The coil provides a cylinder within the cylinder. But while the engine is off, the gas may find a path around the rings and may need a recharge. This means that the engine must run continually. Rohner does not seem to be much concerned about the rings. He said he will replace the two ring system with a single ring in the final product. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Michael Foster mf...@yahoo.com wrote: I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
Axil, I believe you are correct. My understanding is that there are two coils in each cylinder, one for compression and one for containment. I believe the compression coil is located exactly around the focal point of the spark plug electrodes so that it concentrates ions at the focal point for blasting with 160 kV per cycle from the four plugs. That blast, along with the ionization charge already carried by the ions as well as kinetic energy of the ions due to their speed as well as the hoop pressure and excitement of the compression coil containment, etc. seems to be enough to initiate the birth of gremlins and collapse the ions. I guess if you add all of these charges up and multiple by the number of ions in that focal point and you might get to the magic 1 TeV +/- predicted at the CERN LHC. On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the noble gas located axially at the center of the cylinder. This might keep the gases away from the edge of the piston. What this might mean is that the gas is well contained while the engine is running. The coil provides a cylinder within the cylinder. But while the engine is off, the gas may find a path around the rings and may need a recharge. This means that the engine must run continually. Rohner does not seem to be much concerned about the rings. He said he will replace the two ring system with a single ring in the final product. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Michael Foster mf...@yahoo.com wrote: I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
You’re hoped for gremlins have not been seen in CERN’s LHC, any problem with the gremlin theory is they do not exist? Cheers:Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.comwrote: Axil, I believe you are correct. My understanding is that there are two coils in each cylinder, one for compression and one for containment. I believe the compression coil is located exactly around the focal point of the spark plug electrodes so that it concentrates ions at the focal point for blasting with 160 kV per cycle from the four plugs. That blast, along with the ionization charge already carried by the ions as well as kinetic energy of the ions due to their speed as well as the hoop pressure and excitement of the compression coil containment, etc. seems to be enough to initiate the birth of gremlins and collapse the ions. I guess if you add all of these charges up and multiple by the number of ions in that focal point and you might get to the magic 1 TeV +/- predicted at the CERN LHC. On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the noble gas located axially at the center of the cylinder. This might keep the gases away from the edge of the piston. What this might mean is that the gas is well contained while the engine is running. The coil provides a cylinder within the cylinder. But while the engine is off, the gas may find a path around the rings and may need a recharge. This means that the engine must run continually. Rohner does not seem to be much concerned about the rings. He said he will replace the two ring system with a single ring in the final product. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Michael Foster mf...@yahoo.com wrote: I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi
Up until now they have spent $9B looking for the Higgs Boson... I referenced in my summary the 2012 studies below which estimated they should show up around 1 TeV, depending upon how strong you think quantum gravity is and how many dimensions of spacetime and the effect of gravitons. How strong do you think it is? http://arxiv.org/abs/1201.3208 http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.4683 I don't believe they have found any rydberg matter yet either but I may be wrong about that... On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: You’re hoped for gremlins have not been seen in CERN’s LHC, any problem with the gremlin theory is they do not exist? Cheers:Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.comwrote: Axil, I believe you are correct. My understanding is that there are two coils in each cylinder, one for compression and one for containment. I believe the compression coil is located exactly around the focal point of the spark plug electrodes so that it concentrates ions at the focal point for blasting with 160 kV per cycle from the four plugs. That blast, along with the ionization charge already carried by the ions as well as kinetic energy of the ions due to their speed as well as the hoop pressure and excitement of the compression coil containment, etc. seems to be enough to initiate the birth of gremlins and collapse the ions. I guess if you add all of these charges up and multiple by the number of ions in that focal point and you might get to the magic 1 TeV +/- predicted at the CERN LHC. On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: John Rohner uses magnetic confinement to keep the noble gas located axially at the center of the cylinder. This might keep the gases away from the edge of the piston. What this might mean is that the gas is well contained while the engine is running. The coil provides a cylinder within the cylinder. But while the engine is off, the gas may find a path around the rings and may need a recharge. This means that the engine must run continually. Rohner does not seem to be much concerned about the rings. He said he will replace the two ring system with a single ring in the final product. Cheers: Axil On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Michael Foster mf...@yahoo.com wrote: I really want to believe these guys are for real in their revival of the Papp engine. If it works, it's certainly more compelling than getting heat from LENR. One thing bothers me in watching the video of the engine assembly. The piston rings are rubber O-rings. There's no way in hell that the helium in the noble gas mixture will stay in the cylinder for an appreciable length of time. Helium is notoriously fugitive and will escape from virtuall any container not made of solid glass or metal. O-rings just aren't going to work in their engine unless the noble gas mixture can be replenished frequently. -q On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 3:18 AM PDT Chemical Engineer wrote: At 2:30 of this video they mention aligning the holes shown machined on the outside of each cylinder to the top for access to the coils for wiring, etc. I believe they mount a circuit board for each cylinder atop/near each hole to access the coils to supply control power. They do not show the coils inside and i am not sure how they seal it all up. Another video shows the compression coil directly around the target spot of the plugs. A containment coil is supposedly around the rest of the piston. ProdEngAssemble.avi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFgM8osjLEfeature=youtube_gdata_player Sent from my iPad
