Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
thank You, may I call You 'friends'? There are tough times ahead, and I feel responsible. Building our future on a possible chimera would be one of the worst things we could do. Boneheaded realists, phantasts, artists ... all have their role to play.. Whether we are a self-correcting lot -as 'humanity' or as 'vortex-gang' - is an open issue and requires continuous effort from all of us. (Consider this: the Chinese playing Go, the western countries playing chess. There is no agreed set of rules on a world scale, and rules and games interpenetrate. The 'winner' in such a case is the one with the more basic set of rules. No hierarchy in Go. Black is black and white is white. This is a deep issue!) LENR is too important an issue to not consider the probability that there are players in the game who play by completely different rules. To this I tried to give attention. Subtlety is not easily transported via the internet. Suddenly finding oneself like a deer in the spotlights is about the worst which can happen. As said: One can assign ANY probability to this, but it definitely is not zero. Guenter Von: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Gesendet: 4:53 Sonntag, 15.Juli 2012 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III At 06:39 PM 7/14/2012, you wrote: I would think GW would associate Cohen's Everybody Knows with Rossi and LENR: Geez, is a real conversation starting up here on Vortex? Who would've thunk it?
RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
Abd wrote: I don't know if Guenter Wildgruber is *his* real name, but Mark_-ZeroPoint most certainly is not a real name. But I'll happily apologize if it is. [ you left the 'I' off 'Mark' ] If you've been on this forum for any significant length of time, its pretty obvious that I'm the same as zeropoint (2008 to aug-2011), then Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint from Aug-2011 to March-2012, and since March, MarkI-ZeroPoint. Those who have been here for years know who I am, so I haven't bothered with using my full name in my signature, altho I do on occasion add my last name... You want more specifics: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/mark-iverson/6/915/409?_mSplash=1 Mark, here, speculates on something, along with SVJ, about Guenter's mail, that makes some crazy assumptions. As SVJ explained quite well, my speculations were NOT serious! I was simply picking up his half humorous comments, and his gentle chiding of GW, and being a bit less gentle... using the email ReplyTo situation as a way to illustrate how easy it is to draw (faulty) conclusions. The fact that you didn't realize that is an indication that you shot off your mouth before reading the thread to understand it! I would not have even bothered with saying anything, had GW's speculations been about anything other than a human being... When it comes to people, I just think one needs to be very careful about speculating from anything OTHER THAN FIRST HAND INFO... I've been in several startups, from less than 10 people to one which had 26 when I started and grew to 96 within 14 months -- talk about a rollercoaster ride! I've been on the Board of Directors for two of the smaller ones, helping to successfully navigate thru a Chapter-11 and numerous legal battles, with court filings aplenty, and veiled and not-so veiled threats... Perhaps that'll help you understand why I'm a bit touchy when it comes to making speculations about people. Steven (SVJ) and Terry (Blanton), to their credit, always seem to interject some humor in order to keep the tone not too serious, which I think helps make this a pleasurable, as well as very useful and thought-provoking, forum to spend time on. -Mark IVERSON PS: There, ya happy!
RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
Steven wrote: Incidentally, I've occasionally misinterpreted the posting actions of others, so it's not as if I have now decided to torment Abd. If I did, I suspect Abd would simply turn around and bury me in a protracted essay detailing my faults at considerable length. Shame on you, Steven!!! J However, I agree completely, and will leave it at that! -Mark Iverson
[Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
Part III: now the conspiracy: Thesis: Rossi is actually an agent, to ultimately prove the ridiculousness of LENR. Let us add some indications: 1.1) No coworkers of Rossi are known. Except his wife. 1.2) Rossi moves a lot, mainly from Italy to the US and back 1.3) his known facility is a big empty hall with a container inside 1.4) Rossi in the past had some failed operations (see wikipedia 'Andrea Rossi') where he missed his claims by a factor 100 1.5) Rossi seems to be a moderately rich man, definitely not being able to spend 10s of mio$ out of his own pocket 1.6) Rossi does not attend LENR conferences, where he could present intermediate results. He is mainly an internet persona with spurious contacts to the real-world outside the blathersphere 1.7) Rossi claims a 600degC/1000$ ecat2 after a 200degC/500$ ecat1 a bare 6 months ago, which he never convincingly demonstrated 1.8) Rossi is not your usual fraud. He collects preorders, but does not charge anything 1.9) Rossi is a busy and energetic man, working 14-16hrs a day, according to his own statements 1.10 ... All in all this is a strange set of admittedly vague evidences, which nevertheless need some roundup. -- First question: Where does the money for Rossi come from? Powerful interests with deep pockets? The US military being the main suspect by many. Could be. But then he would have NO need to talk so much in the blathersphere. Quite the contrary. His argument once was that he is a true humanist, a benefactor of humanity at large. Fine. But why then should he be affiliated with the US-military? A truly destructive force. When and why did he sell his soul? At the bare minimum Rossi is a one-man show with a mechanics-shop in his neighourhood, two rental spaces in Italy and Florida, the rent of a container, a couple of fake-companies, some patents issued and rejected, traveling expenses, some professors in retirement plus some easily fooled reporters, plus an internet connection and a lot of time to make phony talks to his believers. Did I forget something? Probably. Oh, I forgot: A big ego and a big mouth, which easily blend together. All in all Rossi appears as a cheap conman, if he sticks to the minimum. I guess 1mio$/yr suffice to make up for his expenses, and having a good meal every day at a pizzeria. -- Second question: What do the (US) intelligence-agencies know? Considering that the NSA, the CIA and other intelligence operations, who are routinely involved in spying on commercial operations worldwide, will have spotted Rossi/Leonardo long ago, so that he must be transparent to those institutions. Rossi (and DGT by the way) do not have the means to prevent that. Rarely a secret could be held. ALL of his purchases of nanomaterials etc would be tracked and every person meeting Rossi would be known. We do not hear anything about that, because, well, it is all secret, we make believe ourselves, discarding logic in favor of hope. The socalled captains of industry of the likes of Exxon (who sponsor Craig Venter, btw, see eg http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/14/green-algae-exxon-mobil ) definitely are informed by the commercial arm of the agencies. European companies seem to know about that, whereas the majority of Americans still seem to believe in the magic of the free market. -- Third question: Why has Rossi not been switched off? Or is he eventually being promoted by dark channels? Answer: Because he serves a goal, which is, to discredit the field of LENR and basically cut it off for another couple of decades from proper funding, which it desperately needs. Even common sense and some basic calculations, which I tried to make, show that Rossi is making borderline claims, more often than not crossing into the outlandish. There must be some method in this madness. --- Afterword: There are a lot of interesting people in the vortex-list, who excel in creative speculation, and I like that. Being a maverik is one thing, being a fool another. To repeat: I think LENR is real, but not as Rossi/DGT make us believe. Thank you for reading this and stay alert! All the best Guenter
Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
There's only one hole with your conspiracy theory, and it's a hole you can drive your Mack Truck thru: That is, if Rossi is an agent to discredit LENR, whatever agency, entity, person or company using Rossi should be immediately removed with extreme prejudice from the human gene pool. Why? Simply this; Rossi has singlehandedly done what all the previous Cold Fusion/LENR has not been able to do. That is, to increase awareness and acceptability of LENR over a broad range of audiences. If he is an agent trying to discredit LENR, he is doing a very very very lousy job. Jojo - Original Message - From: Guenter Wildgruber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 8:33 PM Subject: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III Part III: now the conspiracy: Thesis: Rossi is actually an agent, to ultimately prove the ridiculousness of LENR. Let us add some indications: 1.1) No coworkers of Rossi are known. Except his wife. 1.2) Rossi moves a lot, mainly from Italy to the US and back 1.3) his known facility is a big empty hall with a container inside 1.4) Rossi in the past had some failed operations (see wikipedia 'Andrea Rossi') where he missed his claims by a factor 100 1.5) Rossi seems to be a moderately rich man, definitely not being able to spend 10s of mio$ out of his own pocket 1.6) Rossi does not attend LENR conferences, where he could present intermediate results. He is mainly an internet persona with spurious contacts to the real-world outside the blathersphere 1.7) Rossi claims a 600degC/1000$ ecat2 after a 200degC/500$ ecat1 a bare 6 months ago, which he never convincingly demonstrated 1.8) Rossi is not your usual fraud. He collects preorders, but does not charge anything 1.9) Rossi is a busy and energetic man, working 14-16hrs a day, according to his own statements 1.10 ... All in all this is a strange set of admittedly vague evidences, which nevertheless need some roundup. -- First question: Where does the money for Rossi come from? Powerful interests with deep pockets? The US military being the main suspect by many. Could be. But then he would have NO need to talk so much in the blathersphere. Quite the contrary. His argument once was that he is a true humanist, a benefactor of humanity at large. Fine. But why then should he be affiliated with the US-military? A truly destructive force. When and why did he sell his soul? At the bare minimum Rossi is a one-man show with a mechanics-shop in his neighourhood, two rental spaces in Italy and Florida, the rent of a container, a couple of fake-companies, some patents issued and rejected, traveling expenses, some professors in retirement plus some easily fooled reporters, plus an internet connection and a lot of time to make phony talks to his believers. Did I forget something? Probably. Oh, I forgot: A big ego and a big mouth, which easily blend together. All in all Rossi appears as a cheap conman, if he sticks to the minimum. I guess 1mio$/yr suffice to make up for his expenses, and having a good meal every day at a pizzeria. -- Second question: What do the (US) intelligence-agencies know? Considering that the NSA, the CIA and other intelligence operations, who are routinely involved in spying on commercial operations worldwide, will have spotted Rossi/Leonardo long ago, so that he must be transparent to those institutions. Rossi (and DGT by the way) do not have the means to prevent that. Rarely a secret could be held. ALL of his purchases of nanomaterials etc would be tracked and every person meeting Rossi would be known. We do not hear anything about that, because, well, it is all secret, we make believe ourselves, discarding logic in favor of hope. The socalled captains of industry of the likes of Exxon (who sponsor Craig Venter, btw, see eg http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/14/green-algae-exxon-mobil ) definitely are informed by the commercial arm of the agencies. European companies seem to know about that, whereas the majority of Americans still seem to believe in the magic of the free market. -- Third question: Why has Rossi not been switched off? Or is he eventually being promoted by dark channels? Answer: Because he serves a goal, which is, to discredit the field of LENR and basically cut it off for another couple of decades from proper funding, which it desperately needs. Even common sense and some basic calculations, which I tried to make, show that Rossi is making borderline claims, more often than not crossing into the outlandish. There must be some method in this madness. --- Afterword: There are a lot of interesting people in the vortex-list, who excel in creative speculation, and I like that. Being a maverik is one thing, being a fool another. To repeat: I think LENR is real
Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
Jojo, pretending, mimikry and (self-) decepiton are part of the gene-pool, developed for wahtever reason by evolution. As conscious beings we have to fight this. Sure, any trickster gets a lot of attention. Even Uri Geller got the attention of Richard Feynman. ... Because a good magician can do something shouldn't make you right away jump to the conclusion that it's a real phenomenon. —Richard Feynman Feynman went into some lengths in arguing that a true scientist should bend over, to reveal his weaknesses, ready to be criticised any moment. short version: http://www.ar-tiste.com/feynman-on-honesty.html But this is not the ethos of the businessman or the fraudster, ofcourse, if there is one. In this sense, Rossi is not a honest man, but belongs to the shady underworld of pretenders, who should be treated as such. Guenter Von: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com An: Vortex Vortex-l@eskimo.com Gesendet: 15:48 Samstag, 14.Juli 2012 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III There's only one hole with your conspiracy theory, and it's a hole you can drive your Mack Truck thru: ...Rossi should be immediately removed with extreme prejudice from the human gene pool. Why? Simply this; Rossi has singlehandedly done what all the previous Cold Fusion/LENR has not been able to do. That is, to increase awareness and acceptability of LENR over a broad range of audiences. If he is an agent trying to discredit LENR, he is doing a very very very lousy job. Jojo
RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
From Gunter: . now the conspiracy: Thesis: Rossi is actually an agent, to ultimately prove the ridiculousness of LENR. . It seems to me that Rossi is doing what Rossi has always been doing - drumming up the necessary capital he needs in order to complete the commercial development of his cats while simultaneously trying to keep potential competition uninterested by exuding an air of charlatanism. Trying to maintain two battle fronts, RD and charlatanism, simultaneously is not an easy task. Many concerned cold fusion observers fear that Rossi's juggling act will ultimately do him in. Will Rossi eventually succeed in commercializing his kitties? I dunno. I hope so. Insofar as his deception tactics go, this is not my conclusion. It is the conclusion of individuals who have had the opportunity to observe Rosssi's quirky behavior far more meticulously than I, such as Edmond Storms and Michael McKubre. One thing seems pretty clear to me. Rossi's juggling efforts, of maintaining an air of deception and charlatanism among the masses of armchair experts is succeeding. While I'm at it, I think Gunter might turn out to be an agent too - with his own personal agenda. I base this suspicion of mine on the fact that whenever I hit the reply button from one of Gunter's vortex-l posts my replies are automatically sent to Gunter's personal email address, not Vortex. I have come to the disquieting conclusion that this is a deliberate act of sabotage on Gunter's part, perhaps to siphon off information from entering the general public domain. You certainly have to admit the fact that inserting one's personal email address in lieu of vortex-l may be due to a highly suspicious agenda! ;-) Have you ever tried to herd cats? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
Being a naive American, I'm given to baseless theorizing and am willing to believe anything my government tells me. So I appreciate random speculation. But when we're talking about people, especially living ones, we should ground any discussion in solid, demonstrable facts, and avoid accidentally sliding into character assassination. Eric Sent from my iPhone On Jul 14, 2012, at 7:19, Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote: Jojo, pretending, mimikry and (self-) decepiton are part of the gene-pool, developed for wahtever reason by evolution. As conscious beings we have to fight this.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
Yes, Steven, You never know. the net makes us paranoid, even to the extent that even I myself do not know anymore if I myself am my worst enemy. I prefer company which stays away from the net, just to have some contact to 'the real world'. At times I think: They are clever enough to operate an iPad and I should teach them. But then again. I probably loose more than I win. So I keep them in a natural state of delusion about the modern world, and thereby stay in contact with the flowers and the bees and such, which they are so attached to, and I have my pleasure and -ahem- emotional profit. Guenter Von: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Gesendet: 17:03 Samstag, 14.Juli 2012 Betreff: RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III From Gunter: … While I’m at it, I think Gunter might turn out to be an agent too - with his own personal agenda. I base this suspicion of mine on the fact that whenever I hit the reply button from one of Gunter’s vortex-l posts my replies are automatically sent to Gunter’s personal email address, not Vortex. I have come to the disquieting conclusion that this is a deliberate act of sabotage on Gunter’s part, perhaps to siphon off information from entering the general public domain. You certainly have to admit the fact that inserting one’s personal email address in lieu of vortex-l may be due to a highly suspicious agenda! ;-) Have you ever tried to herd cats? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
Eric, at the risk of deviating from the issue, here is one prominent example of an INDIVIDUAL named Richard Kaplan, author of An Empire Wilderness: Travels into America’s Future (1998), deconstructed by JM Greer, who shoud be termed a national treasure of american thought. See: http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.de/2012/07/distant-sound-of-tumbrils.html As a nonnative speaker of the american language I am struck by the elegance and deepness of thought, which JMG shows. Here he addresses Richard Kaplan as a concrete person, who dared to encounter to bridge the gap between the abstract and the concrete, and, as JMG rightly elaborated, understood exactly nothing. A cautious tale: Please value Your treasures. JMG being one of them. This I say from a distance. Kurzweil being a disgrace in comparison, with poor logic. Having a terminal disease, what exactly does he do to ascertain his immortality? Just asking. Deepfreeze? Ha! This despite that I suspect that transhumanists are the majority here. But someone must be the minority, right? Here I am. I am not your everyday cornucopian, as you probably noticed. More like http://xkcd.com/1007/, having a bitter laugh at some follies of my compatriots in the journey into the uncertain. Guenter Von: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Gesendet: 18:03 Samstag, 14.Juli 2012 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III Being a naive American, I'm given to baseless theorizing and am willing to believe anything my government tells me. So I appreciate random speculation. But when we're talking about people, especially living ones, we should ground any discussion in solid, demonstrable facts, and avoid accidentally sliding into character assassination. Eric Sent from my iPhone On Jul 14, 2012, at 7:19, Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote: Jojo, pretending, mimikry and (self-) decepiton are part of the gene-pool, developed for wahtever reason by evolution. As conscious beings we have to fight this.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
SVJ wrote: While I'm at it, I think Gunter might turn out to be an agent too - with his own personal agenda. I base this suspicion of mine on the fact that whenever I hit the reply button from one of Gunter's vortex-l posts my replies are automatically sent to Gunter's personal email address, not Vortex. I have come to the disquieting conclusion that this is a deliberate act of sabotage on Gunter's part, perhaps to siphon off information from entering the general public domain. You certainly have to admit the fact that inserting one's personal email address in lieu of vortex-l may be due to a highly suspicious agenda! ;-) I think you're onto something, Steven! In another rambling post, Guenter goes on about how adept he is with technology and wondering whether he should teach his non-techy friends how to use an iPad, but yet, he can't even configure his email client to ReplyTo: the proper vortex-l address. there would only seem to be two possibilities. 1. His computer skills are what he implies, quite adept, and thus should know how to properly configure his email client, but doesn't for some nefarious reason; or 2. He isn't what he says he is, in which case, it might excuse his inability to properly configure his email client, but then he is misleading readers about his tech-skills/knowledge. I think the first is the more likely one. -Mark
RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
I don't know if Guenter Wildgruber is *his* real name, but Mark_-ZeroPoint most certainly is not a real name. But I'll happily apologize if it is. Mark, here, speculates on something, along with SVJ, about Guenter's mail, that makes some crazy assumptions. If you hit a reply to an actual vortex-l post, what happens to the reply depends on, not only the list settings, but also your own email program's settings. It has little or nothing to do with the original email. If the mail is echoed through the list, it will have a Reply-to header supplied by the list. If you look at the headers from his mails, they look quite like headers from other mails. However, how do we know that a mail is from the vortex list? If you only rely upon the [Vo] in the header, you could be easily misled. Some people do send mails to both the list and the individual. That could easily be done by the user who originates the mail. A mail that was cc'd to the individual, as well as sent to to the list, if the individual replies to it, will behave exactly as described. I don't see a cc in Guenter's mails to the list, but he might be bcc'ing the private emails of some. That would produce the same effect for those people. Again, people might do this to suppress further cc's being sent, but to notify an individual that a mail has been sent to the list. Embarrassing, messages like this, assuming a nefarious reason for something quite ordinary, don't you think? None of this has any bearing on the cogency of the alleged Rossi conspiracy. As with most Matters Rossi, we don't have enough information to do more than flap the meaning-making machine, which can churn out endless speculations. I think Guenter was just having fun. He seems to have some level of grasp of the situation, more than can be said for many others. At 12:57 PM 7/14/2012, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: SVJ wrote: While Im at it, I think Gunter might turn out to be an agent too - with his own personal agenda. I base this suspicion of mine on the fact that whenever I hit the reply button from one of Gunters vortex-l posts my replies are automatically sent to Gunters personal email address, not Vortex. I have come to the disquieting conclusion that this is a deliberate act of sabotage on Gunters part, perhaps to siphon off information from entering the general public domain. You certainly have to admit the fact that inserting ones personal email address in lieu of vortex-l may be due to a highly suspicious agenda! ;-) I think youre onto something, Steven! In another rambling post, Guenter goes on about how adept he is with technology and wondering whether he should teach his non-techy friends how to use an iPad, but yet, he cant even configure his email client to ReplyTo: the proper vortex-l address there would only seem to be two possibilities 1. His computer skills are what he implies, quite adept, and thus should know how to properly configure his email client, but doesnt for some nefarious reason; or 2. He isnt what he says he is, in which case, it might excuse his inability to properly configure his email client, but then he is misleading readers about his tech-skills/knowledge. I think the first is the more likely one -Mark
RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
ABD, The scenarios aren't even in the same league... there are so many variables with Rossi's situation compared to my simple one. There are just as many facts re: Rossi that one can weave together to support any of several different scenarios (legit, fraud, misinformation, etc.). As I said, speculating about tech/science/processes is what we do here, but people with integrity should try to refrain from speculations about people, unless they have first-hand infomatin; what if you were Rossi, and you were legit? For the most part, I was just adding to Steven's humor by subjecting Guenter to a little of what he was dishing out... there was no indications in his postings that he was doing this purely for the entertainment value! -Mark -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com] Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:16 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III I don't know if Guenter Wildgruber is *his* real name, but Mark_-ZeroPoint most certainly is not a real name. But I'll happily apologize if it is. Mark, here, speculates on something, along with SVJ, about Guenter's mail, that makes some crazy assumptions. If you hit a reply to an actual vortex-l post, what happens to the reply depends on, not only the list settings, but also your own email program's settings. It has little or nothing to do with the original email. If the mail is echoed through the list, it will have a Reply-to header supplied by the list. If you look at the headers from his mails, they look quite like headers from other mails. However, how do we know that a mail is from the vortex list? If you only rely upon the [Vo] in the header, you could be easily misled. Some people do send mails to both the list and the individual. That could easily be done by the user who originates the mail. A mail that was cc'd to the individual, as well as sent to to the list, if the individual replies to it, will behave exactly as described. I don't see a cc in Guenter's mails to the list, but he might be bcc'ing the private emails of some. That would produce the same effect for those people. Again, people might do this to suppress further cc's being sent, but to notify an individual that a mail has been sent to the list. Embarrassing, messages like this, assuming a nefarious reason for something quite ordinary, don't you think? None of this has any bearing on the cogency of the alleged Rossi conspiracy. As with most Matters Rossi, we don't have enough information to do more than flap the meaning-making machine, which can churn out endless speculations. I think Guenter was just having fun. He seems to have some level of grasp of the situation, more than can be said for many others. At 12:57 PM 7/14/2012, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: SVJ wrote: While I'm at it, I think Gunter might turn out to be an agent too - with his own personal agenda. I base this suspicion of mine on the fact that whenever I hit the reply button from one of Gunter's vortex-l posts my replies are automatically sent to Gunter's personal email address, not Vortex. I have come to the disquieting conclusion that this is a deliberate act of sabotage on Gunter's part, perhaps to siphon off information from entering the general public domain. You certainly have to admit the fact that inserting one's personal email address in lieu of vortex-l may be due to a highly suspicious agenda! ;-) I think you're onto something, Steven! In another rambling post, Guenter goes on about how adept he is with technology and wondering whether he should teach his non-techy friends how to use an iPad, but yet, he can't even configure his email client to ReplyTo: the proper vortex-l address. there would only seem to be two possibilities. 1. His computer skills are what he implies, quite adept, and thus should know how to properly configure his email client, but doesn't for some nefarious reason; or 2. He isn't what he says he is, in which case, it might excuse his inability to properly configure his email client, but then he is misleading readers about his tech-skills/knowledge. I think the first is the more likely one. -Mark
RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
From Abd Embarrassing, messages like this, assuming a nefarious reason for something quite ordinary, don't you think? FYI, I was deliberately trying to torment Guenter. Mark understood that and went along for the ride... I suspect Guenter also understood the fact that I was trying to torment him. He took it good naturedly. I like that in a person. While I may have disagreed with some of Guenter's creative speculations by poking fun at them, Guenter is definitely not stupid! Incidentally, I've occasionally misinterpreted the posting actions of others, so it's not as if I have now decided to torment Abd. If I did, I suspect Abd would simply turn around and bury me in a protracted essay detailing my faults at considerable length. I guess it helps to know when I'm being serious and when I'm not. Admittedly that may not always be clear. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
Abd ul, I am posting here with my real name, but who knows if that is true? The liar's paradox, which became a serious problem with the net. Who is who and who is telling the 'truth'? Only personal acquaintance or a serious, consistent dedication to a topic can tell. eg I have now doubt that YOU are a genuine seriously thinking honest person, like Feynman is. Now wrt to me, I try to be seriously questioning person with a funny bend. Often not even knowing myself when what is what. Sometime I wake up in the morning asking myself David Byrne's questions: ... You may find yourself living in a shotgun shack You may find yourself in another part of the world You may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile You may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife You may ask yourself, well, how did I get here? Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down Letting the days go by, water flowing underground Into the blue again after the money's gone Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground You may ask yourself, how do I work this? You may ask yourself, where is that large automobile? You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful house You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful wife Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down Letting the days go by, water flowing underground Into the blue again, after the money's gone Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was. ... Byrne is a seriosly funny person. And I doubt Rossi qualifies. Interesting in another sense, that Byrne bends time into something circular, which most artists do. Groundhog day. Scientists and all sorts of apocalyptics do NOT. Start-stop. Linear time. Guenter Von: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Gesendet: 0:16 Sonntag, 15.Juli 2012 Betreff: RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III I don't know if Guenter Wildgruber is *his* real name, but Mark_-ZeroPoint most certainly is not a real name. But I'll happily apologize if it is. Mark, here, speculates on something, along with SVJ, about Guenter's mail, that makes some crazy assumptions. If you hit a reply to an actual vortex-l post, what happens to the reply depends on, not only the list settings, but also your own email program's settings. It has little or nothing to do with the original email. If the mail is echoed through the list, it will have a Reply-to header supplied by the list. If you look at the headers from his mails, they look quite like headers from other mails. However, how do we know that a mail is from the vortex list? If you only rely upon the [Vo] in the header, you could be easily misled. Some people do send mails to both the list and the individual. That could easily be done by the user who originates the mail. A mail that was cc'd to the individual, as well as sent to to the list, if the individual replies to it, will behave exactly as described. I don't see a cc in Guenter's mails to the list, but he might be bcc'ing the private emails of some. That would produce the same effect for those people. Again, people might do this to suppress further cc's being sent, but to notify an individual that a mail has been sent to the list. Embarrassing, messages like this, assuming a nefarious reason for something quite ordinary, don't you think? None of this has any bearing on the cogency of the alleged Rossi conspiracy. As with most Matters Rossi, we don't have enough information to do more than flap the meaning-making machine, which can churn out endless speculations. I think Guenter was just having fun. He seems to have some level of grasp of the situation, more than can be said for many others. At 12:57 PM 7/14/2012, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: SVJ wrote: “While I’m at it, I think Gunter might turn out to be an agent too - with his own personal agenda. I base this suspicion of mine on the fact that whenever I hit the reply button from one of Gunter’s vortex-l posts my replies are automatically sent to Gunter’s personal email address, not Vortex. I have come to the disquieting conclusion that this is a deliberate act of sabotage on Gunter’s part, perhaps to siphon off information from entering the general public domain. You certainly have to admit the fact that inserting one’s personal email address in lieu of vortex-l may be due to a highly suspicious agenda! ;-) I think you’re onto something, Steven! In another rambling post, Guenter goes on about how adept he is with technology and wondering whether he should teach his non-techy friends how to use an iPad, but yet, he can’t even configure his email client to ReplyTo: the proper vortex-l address… there would only seem to be two possibilities… 1. His computer skills are what he implies, quite
Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
I would think GW would associate Cohen's Everybody Knows with Rossi and LENR: Everybody Knows Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows that the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes Everybody knows Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied Everybody got this broken feeling Like their father or their dog just died Everybody talking to their pockets Everybody wants a box of chocolates And a long stem rose Everybody knows Everybody knows that you love me baby Everybody knows that you really do Everybody knows that you've been faithful Ah give or take a night or two Everybody knows you've been discreet But there were so many people you just had to meet Without your clothes And everybody knows Everybody knows, everybody knows That's how it goes Everybody knows Everybody knows, everybody knows That's how it goes Everybody knows And everybody knows that it's now or never Everybody knows that it's me or you And everybody knows that you live forever Ah when you've done a line or two Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows And everybody knows that the Plague is coming Everybody knows that it's moving fast Everybody knows that the naked man and woman Are just a shining artifact of the past Everybody knows the scene is dead But there's gonna be a meter on your bed That will disclose What everybody knows And everybody knows that you're in trouble Everybody knows what you've been through From the bloody cross on top of Calvary To the beach of Malibu Everybody knows it's coming apart Take one last look at this Sacred Heart Before it blows And everybody knows Everybody knows, everybody knows That's how it goes Everybody knows Oh everybody knows, everybody knows That's how it goes Everybody knows Everybody knows
RE: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
Of course, maybe I'm the one to be embarrassed, by taking parody for serious complaint So what, I don't care. I just write what I think, plus what I dig up as research. Mostly I'm ignoring this list, I've gotten Awfully Busy elsewhere. I don't need the latest crumbs from the Rossi Information Cabal, or the latest attempts to rationalize or interpret them as due to Obfuscatrons Inflammating the Zero Point Nutrances. We've got enough trouble interpreting relatively simple stuff where we have plenty of experimental data Of course, Einstein was Wrong and if people would just Pay Attention to Me, it would all fall into place. Really. No kidding. The secret is in the double positive making a negative. Yeah, right. At 05:46 PM 7/14/2012, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: From Abd Embarrassing, messages like this, assuming a nefarious reason for something quite ordinary, don't you think? FYI, I was deliberately trying to torment Guenter. Mark understood that and went along for the ride... I suspect Guenter also understood the fact that I was trying to torment him. He took it good naturedly. I like that in a person. While I may have disagreed with some of Guenter's creative speculations by poking fun at them, Guenter is definitely not stupid! Incidentally, I've occasionally misinterpreted the posting actions of others, so it's not as if I have now decided to torment Abd. If I did, I suspect Abd would simply turn around and bury me in a protracted essay detailing my faults at considerable length. I guess it helps to know when I'm being serious and when I'm not. Admittedly that may not always be clear. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
At 06:13 PM 7/14/2012, Guenter Wildgruber wrote: Abd ul, I am posting here with my real name, but who knows if that is true? The liar's paradox, which became a serious problem with the net. Who is who and who is telling the 'truth'? Only personal acquaintance or a serious, consistent dedication to a topic can tell. If then. I highly recommend hanging out with the ontological conversation. Good for the soul. Collections of symbols are not truth. Words are tools that are functional or otherwise. eg I have now doubt that YOU are a genuine seriously thinking honest person, like Feynman is. One of the blessings of my life was that I spent a bit of time with him. He's not responsible for my goofs, but his approach to life found an echo in me. I never got to beating 7 against 6, though, just 5 to 4. On a good day. And I just look at stuff, trying to make some sense of what seems impossibly complex, then I report what I've seen, and ask whatever questions come up, and sometimes realms open up. Now wrt to me, I try to be seriously questioning person with a funny bend. Seems clear enough to me. I was out on the street tonight, watching a street magician, talking shop with a salesman sitting with his wife. I dropped a card in the donation bucket of the gray-painted statue lady on which I'd written, This card is worth whatever you say, I had an extended conversation with a man working at a pizza shop, that's his Saturday job, during the week he's an architect and mason, and I shook the hand of a drunk. And more. I'm basically learning to listen. Today I also talked on the phone with one of my sons who was watching his nephews, two of my grandchildren I hadn't spoken to in way too long. I asked the littlest one, he's about eight, what was important to him. Talking to you, grandpa.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi conspiracy. Part III
At 06:39 PM 7/14/2012, you wrote: I would think GW would associate Cohen's Everybody Knows with Rossi and LENR: Geez, is a real conversation starting up here on Vortex? Who would've thunk it?
[Vo]:rossi-Conspiracy-- Part III
Part III and end: now the conspiracy: Rossi is actually an agent, to ultimately prove the ridiculousness of LENR. Hint: Rossi does not ask for money from unsuspecting customers. He does not need that! He is financed by some obscure sources, which I can only speculate about who they are. His strange 'office' in Florida reminds me of exactly what? What we logically can infere: Rossi is backed by one or more influential US-entities: Probably the NSA, the CIA and the oil-industry. this trio has enough money to 1) know what is going on, 2) finance a counter-strategy, including ridiculiing the field. Remember: Rossi is not entiteled to anything up to now. He quite possibly is paid to PRETEND, as long as possible: ridiculos claims, to discredit the field as a whole. DGT, making similar ridiculous claims, maybe trapped by a secondary illusion. If Rossi has something, they should also, even if they are deep in the woods of only PRETENDING to know he way. Argument Pro: the DGT founders are from banking and have their claims hidden in Cyprus, which is a tax haven. They maybe are not even aware of the primary scam, What bankers do: Pretend. The rest: they do not really care. DGTs socalled customers from 100 countries with 40million$ per entity should make one's head spin! How come? I was boggled by the good Peter Gluck's interview, reporting such outrageous claims. If 'I' spend 40mio per 300k items, I want to know, right? It is not the Cayaman Islands, or Aserbaijan, which preorder ecats, right? But all those parties have convinced themselves that this is a good investment? One would like to see this by one's own eyes, right?. An endless procession of interested parties to the outbacks of Athens must have been happened, -1k premier deciders, I guess--carefully monitored by the likes of CIA, NSA, right? I do not know, where to put my conspiracy hat OFF right now, because it fits so well. Those are just wild speculations. Make up you own, and back it up with evidence. Sorry folks. Guenter
