RE: [WSG] targeting link class problem

[Mike Foskett]

Hey Kev,

#navcontainershort a.one:hover {} 
#navcontainershort a.two:hover {} 

Should access them specifically

Mike


 Mike Foskett
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Communications
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410
 http://www.becta.org.uk






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: 07 March 2006 11:10
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] targeting link class problem

hello,

How would i target   a:hover on the following links?
I tried a few things but cant get down to the classes(one, two).

div id=navcontainershort
ul
li a  href=# class=onebla bla/a/li
 li a  href=# class=twobla/a/li


-best
kevin 

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RE: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

[Mike Foskett]

Mac report:

Worked fine in Safari v1 - bottom margin of about 1.5em, same as top
Worked okay in IE v5.2 - the bottom margin was extended 10em approx. 
Worked fine in Opera v8.51 - bottom margin approx 3em

Personally I'd ignore the margin difference but I thought I'd mention it in 
case it bothers you.
Mime type worked well. Will probably start using it myself.


Regards

Mike 2k:)2



 Mike Foskett
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Communications
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410
 http://www.becta.org.uk






-Original Message-
From: Stephen Stagg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 07 December 2005 15:39
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!


Designer wrote:
 Dear colleagues,

 Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done 
 what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below:

 !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
 html lang=en
  xml:lang=en
  xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
 head
 titleThe Area/title
 meta http-equiv=Content-Type
content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 /

 I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed 
 fine.  However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, 
 so I saved it as .php.  All seems fine, including IE.

 You can see my test page at:

 http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php

 So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK?  Does it fall apart 
 for anybody? (mac esp?)

 and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 
 'should' be doing (Lachlan?)

 Many thanks,

 
Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :).  It looks fine 
on Opera 8.5, Firefox 1.5. at 1280x1024.

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RE: [WSG] standards, semantics and strict/valid Script Sources

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Jay,
 
I would recommend http://onlinetools.org.
Clean unobtrusive scripts, very nice.
Though it obviously depends on what you are looking for.
 

mike 2k:)2
 
marqueeblink
mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
work: http://webSemantics.co.uk 
rest: http://2kool2.com 
play: http://bangersandmashed.com 
/marquee/blink
 
 


From: Jay Gilmore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01 December 2005 03:31
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] standards, semantics and strict/valid Script Sources


I am honestly looking for resources. Any help in this would be great. 

Jay

Jay Gilmore wrote: 

I wanted to know if there are resources like HotScripts etc. that 
provide code that is standards oriented, semantic and use valid and/or strict 
doctypes? I hate always having to hack the hell out of scripts etc to remove 
tables and replace semantics etc. 

Jay

-- 


Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real Small Business.
SmashingRed Web  Marketing http://www.smashingred.com 
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



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RE: [WSG] Help FF v1.5 and Flash on a Mac

[Mike Foskett]

I need some help urgently.

Just downloaded the latest release v1.5 and Flash Player v8.

Now my Flash audio stream buttons no longer display, just macromedia's f.
What's happened? It appears perfectly on my PC version.

http://bangersandmashed.com

The Macromedia site reports The Flash Player as installed and then plays a 
movie.
It all worked fine in v1.07. 
It still works in Safari and IE too, so I don't think it's the Flash install.
This is affecting both my Macs

Is this a FF bug? 
Or possibly an unsupported Flash programming method?

Any help greatly appreciated.


mike 2k:)2
 
marqueeblink
   mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   work: http://webSemantics.co.uk
   rest: http://2kool2.com
   play: http://bangersandmashed.com
/marquee/blink
 



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RE: [WSG] Absolute positioning objects and centering content.

[Mike Foskett]

Hi all,

I've just used a little absolute positioning inside an div for the first time 
in years.
Is it common practice to add position:relative to the body element to get 
relative objects to behave when resizing the browser?


During this project I also found a solution to centre content that appeared to 
work in all the browsers (Mac and PC) I tried.


/* global reset */
*   {margin:0; padding:0}
body{
 position:relative; 
 text-align:center; 
 font:100.01%/130% Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif; 
 color:#000; background:#fff; 
 width:768px; 
 margin:0 auto; 
 overflow:-moz-scrollbars-vertical
}
body *  {text-align:left}


Are there going to be surprises appearing due to this technique?



Regards


mike 2k:)2
 
marqueeblink http://www.webSemantics.co.uk /marquee/blink
 




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RE: [WSG] Flexible Font sizes in tables in ie

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Kara,

Don't know if I'm coming in late on this one but here goes anyway.

I'd suggest using a font-size of either 100.01% in the body and adjusting 
content text accordingly or 76.1% as a minimum font-size.
I normally do a global reset something like this:

/* global reset */
*   {margin:0; padding:0}
body{text-align:center; font:100.01%/130% Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif; 
color:#000; background:#fff; width:760px; margin:0 auto; 
overflow:-moz-scrollbars-vertical}
body *  {text-align:left} 

Using ems in the body element causes IE to behave erratically when resizing 
fonts.
Using % fixes this issue.

Using 100% in the body element causes rounding issues in Opera.
Using  101% causes issue with Safari.

Further info: 
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#leveller

Hope it helps
 
Mike


 Mike Foskett
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Communications
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410
 http://www.becta.org.uk






-Original Message-
From: Kara O'Halloran - Eduka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 04 October 2005 10:03
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Flexible Font sizes in tables in ie

 hi guys,

Another possibly silly question but I've done quite a bit of searching on this 
now and found nothing.

I'm setting my font size at 0.8em in my body class. In firefox this works fine 
across the site, but in ie, the text inside my table cells appears larger.

I've tried setting a font size to td but then it appears smaller in ff (as it 
should).

I think if I set a base of 1em in the body it would solve my problems, but then 
I have to apply font size 75% to make everything the size I want it, and that 
would cause much the same problem as it cascades down and potentially end up 
with really mini fonts throughout the site...

Now, is there a way that I can cater for both browsers here?
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RE: [WSG] Show Hide by Class

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Stuart,

The screen reader will get the css, if JavaScript is enabled, which is the norm.
Though I point out that styling is not really essential to a screen reader. 

Regards

Mike 2k:)2

 Mike Foskett
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Communications
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410
 http://www.becta.org.uk






-Original Message-
From: Stuart Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 20 September 2005 01:30
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Show Hide by Class

I'm using this at the top of my js file to initially hide the topics:
if (document.getElementById) { // Content available if javascript disabled
   document.write('link rel=stylesheet type=text/css 
href=hide.css /');
}

I'm not sure if screen readers will read the related css. Anyone know?

Someone else also suggested I add an id to the topic list and gave me this code:
function toggle(x) {// Show Hide Content targetDiv = 
document.getElementById('topicListCategory-' + x); targetDiv.style.display = 
(targetDiv.style.display == 'block') ? 'none' 
: 'block';
}

The server just has to output ids with a number on the end. I didn't know js 
could do this. Very neat.

Stuart
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RE: [WSG] An accessible and semantic date picker calendar?

[Mike Foskett]

Hi all,

I've just developed a date picker calendar for use on an intranet.

http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/accessible_date_picker_calendar/

Could someone give it a once over and check it semantically and for 
accessibility please?

Cheers

mike 2k:)2
marqueeblink  webSemantics  /marquee/blink
winmail.dat

RE: More accessibility on opening new windows: was:RE: [WSG] I'm on a question roll.... background images on links

[Mike Foskett]

Sorry Ted two things:

1. No JavaScript will cause no new window to open AND the title will still be 
there.
2. Display:none on the span helps no one. Screen readers only ignore 
display:none on form controls.

It would be better to write the whole thing as a JavaScript routine, complete 
with noscript section:

script
write link with new window clause
/script
noscript
Normal link
/noscript

Regards

Mike 2k:)2




 Mike Foskett
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Communications
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410
 http://www.becta.org.uk






-Original Message-
From: Drake, Ted C. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01 September 2005 16:19
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: More accessibility on opening new windows: was:RE: [WSG] I'm on a 
question roll background images on links

Gian brings up an interesting point, Instead of using a background image, 
insert the image that represents an open window instead. Place text in the alt 
attribute that specifies the window will open in a new window.

I think I can go one step better.

The image you are using is still presentational and not necessarily functional.

How about a href=http://www.yahoo.com  class=external title=This link 
will open in a new window onclick=window.open(this.href); return false;
Yahoo.comspanThis link will open in a new window/span/a

Now, use CSS

.external {background: url(bg-external-link.png)no-repeat 0 0; 
padding-left:25px;} .external span {display:none;}


This gives you the visual image without requiring multiple server requests, 
distinct language for screenreaders, and provides clear information for those 
without CSS enabled.

Will a screen reader read something that has display:none? Does someone have a 
better suggestion for hiding this? I'm worried that text-indent would create a 
huge target area for the link and position absolute may get thrown off by where 
the link is used.


We could use javascript to detect the external link, i.e. look for href=http 
or more likely a series of detects. It could insert the class, the title, and 
the span.

This makes it easier on the programmer, they would write:

a href=http://www.yahoo.com;Yahoo.com/a

Thierry wrote a script for the latest post on my web site:
www.tdrake.net.  You could use this as the starting point for the above 
javascript and just modify it for what it is looking for and needs to insert. 

P.S. I can't figure out why this post is behaving differently than others on my 
blog. I know it looks horrible as a permalink. There is an extra /div getting 
inserted and it is using a different comments include. Has anyone else had this 
issue on Wordpress?





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Gian Sampson-Wild (PurpleTop)
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:13 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] I'm on a question roll background images on links

Hi Ted

Just so you are aware, background images are not read by screen readers so if 
you are trying to make the site accessible you should ensure that there is an 
alternate way of identifying the link as opening a new window.
(Informing the user of opening a new window is a Level AA issue but if you 
provide an image that conveys that information it becomes a Level A issue).
Also you can't rely on the TITLE attribute of the link tag as they are not read 
out by screen readers by default.  You may want to consider something
like:
http://www.liveinvictoria.vic.gov.au/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=95languageI
d=1contentId=-1 (right hand column under More information)

Cheers,
Gian

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Drake, Ted C. 
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 2:32 AM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: [WSG] I'm on a question roll background images on links

We are using a background image on links to signify they are external. The 
image sits on the right side of the link using background: url() 100% 0;

All is fine in firefox, but in IE the icon overlaps or sits at the top when the 
text wraps to a second line.  Is there a way to make the background image 
follow the text inside a link rather than looking at the link as a block?

I've tried display: inline-block and that made the spacing better, but didn't 
fix the issue.

Here's an example

Good link:  

| Google Virtual |
| World (icon)   |


Bad link:
| Google Virtua(icon) | The icon sits at the top and doesn't 
| World   | flow with the text


Has anyone found a way to fix this? I don't want to go back to inline images 
and our standard

RE: [WSG] javascript question - body onload events question

[Mike Foskett]

Ted,
 
You need to remove the onload function from the HTML and place it in a separate 
JavaScript file.

script type=text/javascript src=scripts/javascript.js/script

Put an onload handler in the JS file:
 
function addEvent(func) {
  if (!document.getElementById | !document.getElementsByTagName) return
var oldonload=window.onload
if (typeof window.onload != 'function') { window.onload=func }
else {
window.onload=function() { oldonload(); func() }
}
  }
 
Now in the JS file add the event at the bottom of the file:
 
addEvent(stripeAll);
 
If you have any other JavaScript onload functions (eg 
window.onload=otherfunction() ) then that has to be added instead of loaded.
 
addevent(otherfunction);

That should do it (hopefully).


regards
 
mike 2k:)2
 
marqueeblink
   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
/marquee/blink
 



 



From: Drake, Ted C. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 21 July 2005 17:55
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] javascript question - body onload events question



That didn't work for me. 

 

Here's the beginning of the zebra table code: 

 

var requiredStripeClass = 'zebraTable'; //optional variable, defining the class 
which is required to stripe a table. If empty or null, all tables will be 
striped

var evenColor = '#fff';

var oddColor = '#e4edf1';

 

This requires the following body tag body onload=stripeAll()

 

I tried removing the onload event from the body and inserting your code, but it 
didn't work. Ok, I figured it was looking for playlist and not zebraTable. So, 
I corrected the names and it still didn't work.

I then changed your suggestion to this:

 

window.onload = stripeAll();

 

This didn't work either.

 

I realize this could be an off-topic thread but we have been discussing DOM 
related coding recently and this goes to the heart of separating behavior from 
the code. If we could insert the onload event into the javascript, we can make 
the code even more universal.

 

Ted

 

 

 

I believe that you need to do something like the following

window.onload = function() {
  stripe('playlist', '#fff', '#edf3fe');
}

atb S

Drake, Ted C. wrote: 

Hi All
I've been trying to get a straight answer for this question from our
Javascript person but haven't gotten it yet. I hope this is on-topic.
 
Many of us are already using the great Zebra Tables from Alistapart.com
It requires an onload event for the body tag and to include a link to the
javascript file. This in itself is easy enough. However, our current site
unfortunately has the body tag in an include. This would mean every page
would have the body onload event whether or not it had a link to the
javascript file and/or a table worth striping.
 
Here are my questions for you.
 
1. Does it hurt to have an onload event without a link to the javascript?
This assumes we add the link on pages that need it. 
2. Are there any performance issues if the body onload event is added and
the link to the javascript is added, yet the page has no table worth
striping?  This particular script is common enough to be analyzed. But in
general is this an issue?
 
I need to make a decision on this as soon as possible and any help is much
appreciated. 
 
The pages are html tag soup. We are beginning our conversion with semantic
coding of the content and new projects are using XHTML 1.0 transitional.
 
Thanks again.
  

 



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RE: [WSG] Base tag and the selecting of body text in IE

[Mike Foskett]

 
Hi y'all,

I've a quick question about the base tag and the selection of body content text.

Try selecting body content text on this page in IE6:
http://stageaclearn.ngfl.gov.uk/

The site uses a base tag:
base href=http://stageaclearn.ngfl.gov.uk/content_files/acl/pages/home.htm; 
/ 

Yet if the tag is removed the body text becomes selectable.

Has anyone come across this issue?
Is there a solution?

Regards

Mike


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 





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RE: [WSG] Base tag and the selecting of body text in IE

[Mike Foskett]

Ed, do you have a link or a name explaining this IE feature / bug? 

Regards

Mike


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 



-Original Message-
From: Edward Clarke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 20 July 2005 10:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Base tag and the selecting of body text in IE

It's an IE bug/feature. A nuisance I have to admit. The BASE tag though???

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mike Foskett
Sent: 20 July 2005 10:29
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Base tag and the selecting of body text in IE

 
Hi y'all,

I've a quick question about the base tag and the selection of body content text.

Try selecting body content text on this page in IE6:
http://stageaclearn.ngfl.gov.uk/

The site uses a base tag:
base
href=http://stageaclearn.ngfl.gov.uk/content_files/acl/pages/home.htm; / 

Yet if the tag is removed the body text becomes selectable.

Has anyone come across this issue?
Is there a solution?

Regards

Mike



 Mike Foskett
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant  Multimedia Publishing and 
Production  British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)  
Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410
 www.becta.org.uk

 





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RE: [WSG] Base tag and the selecting of body text in IE

[Mike Foskett]

Ed,

You're a star. Worked perfectly.

Cheers

Mike

Mike 
FoskettWeb Standards, Accessibility  Testing 
ConsultantMultimedia Publishing and ProductionBritish 
Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)Milburn Hill 
Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJEmail: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Tel: 02476 416994 Ext 3342 
[Tuesday - Thursday]Fax: 02476 
411410www.becta.org.uk



From: Edward Clarke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 20 July 2005 15:33To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Base tag and the 
selecting of body text in IE


Not a name exactly but you’re entitled to make one up if 
you wish. I’ve had this problem before but a while back. 


Try:

base href="" instead of base 
href="" /

and see how you go.

Eddie
http://blog.tn38.net/ 


-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
Of Mike FoskettSent: 20 July 2005 15:06To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: 
[WSG] Base tag and the selecting of body text in IE

Ed, do you have a link or a name explaining this IE 
feature / bug? 

Regards

Mike

________ 

Mike Foskett 
Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing 
Consultant
Multimedia Publishing and Production 

British Educational Communications and Technology 
Agency (Becta) 
Milburn Hill Road, 
Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Tel: 02476 416994 Ext 3342 [Tuesday - 
Thursday]
Fax: 02476 411410 
www.becta.org.uk
 

RE: [WSG] Print CSS justify

[Mike Foskett]

Using a separate print style sheet:

p {text-align:justify}

Should do the trick but be sure the print.css file follows the default in the 
HTML:

  style type=text/css media=screen@import /styles/display.css;/style
  link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=print href=/styles/print.css 
/

It's not supposed to make a difference yet it does.


mike 2k:)2
 
marqueeblink
   e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
/marquee/blink
 


-Original Message-
From: Dean eCreate [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 12 July 2005 17:24
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Print CSS justify

Is it possible to use a print CSS file to get type to justify in print output 
or is justify strictly for screen?

If possible, what's the trick?

Thanks,

Dean

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RE: [WSG] Complete CSS reset

[Mike Foskett]

There should be a border:0 in there too, but I seriously don't recommend trying 
it. 

mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Andrew Krespanis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 06 July 2005 05:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Complete CSS reset

 Has anyone made a stylesheet that resets everything back to the way it 
 would be if styling pure XML?

Here you go:

* {
  margin:0;
  padding:0;
  display:inline;
  font:1em serif;
}

To quote your CSS file:
And I didn't reset everything to inline, because then it's hard to tell what's 
what.
Yes, exactly like trying to style pure XML. If you really want to teach your 
class separation of structure, get them to create their structure in XSL. The 
ones that catch on will be in awe of the fact that they can create a dynamic, 
XML backed site using only a bit of file space and a browser. I'm having great 
difficulty envisioning the learning outcome of a Style XML with CSS lesson 
having much in common with a solid understanding of structure, as CSS can't add 
structure, only visual formatting (ignoring the behavioural pseudo-classes and 
generated content for the sake of this discussion ;).

That said, the only thing my lecturers taught me was Click here to add a 
table, so good on you for trying to give your students something more! :)

Andrew.

http://leftjustified.net/
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RE: [WSG] font-familly: Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Felix, 

What would you recommend as a Verdana equivalent / replacement font on a Linux 
machine?
It has to be a prevalent font with similar readability.

From that I'd perhaps suggest:

Font-family: Verdana [PC],  [Linux], Helvetica [Mac], sans-serif

Or fallback to:

Font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif

What do you think?

mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Felix Miata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 06 July 2005 03:04
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] font-familly: Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif

Mike Foskett's response to another thread referred to 
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#leveller
that applies the equivalent of the subject rule to body of a stylesheet 
designed to get rid of most UA default styles.

I'm wondering how many people who use this rule have any real clue of its 
ramifications on non-M$ systems. On M$ systems, Helvetica is usually mapped to 
Arial. Because Arial is scalable, the difference between the two specified 
fonts isn't particularly large. On OS X among Macs at least, Helvetica is 
apparently scalable as well, so again there won't be much apparent difference. 
However, Helvetica on Linux seems traditionally to be a bitmapped font. This in 
a not insignificant number of cases will result in rendering results quite a 
bit different from what was probably the intended result of the fallback font, 
since most Linux systems are not equipped with Verdana.

http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/verdvhelve.html provides a look at Helvetica and 
Verdana together on 2 Mac  4 Linux browsers.
http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/Font/font-verd-v-helve.html is the 
foundation of the screenshots there, though most were taken using a modified 
version that resorted according to approximate size. I say approximate largely 
because Helvetica is frequently taller, but normally narrower than Verdana.

Since Geneva seems to be preferred to Helvetica on Mac, and Helvetica usually 
doesn't exist on M$, is there any good reason to ever specify Helvetica as a 
fallback font, or even as a first choice?
--
If you love your children, you will be prompt to discipline them.
Proverbs 13:24

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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RE: [WSG] base css

[Mike Foskett]

Snippet taken from: 
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#leveller
Where there's a fuller description and a few other snippets.

On full width pages:
 
* {margin:0; padding:0}
html {height:100%; font-size:100.01%}
body { 
min-height:101%; 
font:100.01%/130% Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif; 
color:#000; 
background:#fff
} 
 

On fixed width pages:
 
* {margin:0; padding:0}
html {height:100%; font-size:100.01%}
body { 
text-align:center; 
min-height:101%; 
font:100.01%/130% Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif; 
color:#000; 
background:#fff; 
width:760px; 
margin:0 auto 
}

body * {text-align:left}
#wrapper {width:760px} 


Both seem to work well cross browser / cross platform, but testing and change 
is a continual process. 




Regards

mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] Disapearing divs in IE v5.0 only | Browser testing

[Mike Foskett]

Hi all, 

I've just inspected my site in IE 5.0 for the first time since development last 
year.
I was amazed to see errors creeping in, even though it's valid (X)HTML.

The right-hand column has divs which do not display in IE v5.0 on a PC unless 
hovered over.
They disappear again if scrolled out of the window.
IE 5.2, on a Mac, displays correctly.

Does anyone know why this happens and perhaps suggest a fix?

http://www.websemantics.co.uk/


This error has made me re-evaluate my testing procedures.
Until now I have used multiple IE on one machine. 
Now I'm a little concerned that it may not be good enough and need to revert to 
using virtual PC.

How does everyone else test IE v5.0? 
Virtual PC, Separate PC, or Multiple IE?

And are you satisfied with the results obtained?


mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] Class Discusion: Centering a Fixed Width Layout

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Mario,

That only occurs with IE v5.
IE v5.5, v6, Firefox, Netscape and Opera will all centre the design.
The only amend required to get IE v5 to behave is to add text-align:center to 
the body element.
Then compensate for that alignment in the elements below:

* {margin:0; padding:0}
html {height:100%; font-size:100.01%}
body{
text-align:center; 
min-height:101%; 
font:76.1%/130% Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif; 
color:#000; background:#fff; 
width:760px; 
margin:0 auto
}

body * {text-align:left}
#wrapper {width:760px}

(Amended from: 
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#leveller)

IE v5 requires all the centred content to be in a wrapper div (other browsers 
don't).

div id=wrapperall centred content in here/div


mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 20 June 2005 19:32
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Cc: Mike Foskett
Subject: RE: [WSG] Class Discusion: Centering a Fixed Width Layout

Hi Mike,

Great set of CSS code snippets and explanations! However, there is one 
declaration that suggests using margin: 0 auto in the body rule, which 
supposedly center-aligns the webpage in the browser. However, testing reveals 
that it left-aligns the page, but placing this declaration in a container or 
wrapper works.

Please advise...

Respectfully yours,
Mario


 You might find this useful to look at:
 http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#leveller
 Gives light detail on why certain settings are used.

 The latest version:
 http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#levelleru
 pdate It requires text-align:center adding for IE v5 though.

 Hope it helps

 mike 2k:)2

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RE: [WSG] Class Discusion: Centering a Fixed Width Layout

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Mario,

I don't know what's different, but here's the test page I used to develop it:
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/test/centered_content/

Tested as working on:
PC: IE v5, IE v6, Firefox.
Mac: IE v5.2, Safari.

The test example has no margin set on the container div.
Though I don't really think it matters whether it's stated on the body tag or 
the container.
I'd put that to personal taste or style.


mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 21 June 2005 16:11
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Cc: Mike Foskett
Subject: RE: [WSG] Class Discusion: Centering a Fixed Width Layout

Good morning Mike,

I must respectfully disagree. I'm looking at my client site in FF, Opera, 
Mozilla and Netscape as I compose this reply, and the page is left-aligned 
using margin:0 auto in the body rule only.

However, it center-aligns the page when placing the margin:0 auto in a 
container div.

body
{text-align: center;
 background: #ccc;}

#container
{margin: 0 auto;
 width: 760px;
 font: normal 12px verdana, arial, sans-serif;
 background: #fff;}

Respectfully yours,
Mario

 Hi Mario,

 That only occurs with IE v5.
 IE v5.5, v6, Firefox, Netscape and Opera will all centre the design. 
 The only amend required to get IE v5 to behave is to add 
 text-align:center to the body element. Then compensate for that 
 alignment in the elements
 below:

 * {margin:0; padding:0}
 html {height:100%; font-size:100.01%}
 body  {
   text-align:center;
   min-height:101%;
   font:76.1%/130% Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif;
   color:#000; background:#fff;
   width:760px;
   margin:0 auto
   }

 body * {text-align:left}
 #wrapper {width:760px}

 (Amended from:
 http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#leveller)

 IE v5 requires all the centred content to be in a wrapper div (other 
 browsers don't).

 div id=wrapperall centred content in here/div


 mike 2k:)2

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 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  Sent: 20 June 2005 19:32
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Cc: Mike Foskett
 Subject: RE: [WSG] Class Discusion: Centering a Fixed Width Layout

 Hi Mike,

 Great set of CSS code snippets and explanations! However, there is one
 declaration that suggests using margin: 0 auto in the body rule, which
 supposedly center-aligns the webpage in the browser. However, testing
 reveals that it left-aligns the page, but placing this declaration in a
 container or wrapper works.

 Please advise...

 Respectfully yours,
 Mario


 You might find this useful to look at:
 http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#leveller
 Gives light detail on why certain settings are used.

 The latest version:
 http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#levelleru
 pdate It requires text-align:center adding for IE v5 though.

 Hope it helps

 mike 2k:)2

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e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk /marquee/blink



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RE: [WSG] Class Discusion: Centering a Fixed Width Layout

[Mike Foskett]

You might find this useful to look at:
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#leveller
Gives light detail on why certain settings are used.

The latest version:
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#levellerupdate
It requires text-align:center adding for IE v5 though.

Hope it helps
 
mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] Fair usage of Pre and a Mac issue with it

[Mike Foskett]

Thanks Philippe.

So it appears to be a waste of time developing further while IE 5 on a Mac is 
still prevalent.
I'm dropping back to divs and setting white-space to pre.

Cheers

mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Philippe Wittenbergh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 14 June 2005 03:29
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Fair usage of Pre and a Mac issue with it


On 13 Jun 2005, at 7:46 pm, Mike Foskett wrote:

 3. Why doesn't Mac IE v5.2 display the content in the pre? It 
 appears to not be stretching the height.

There is a bug in IE Mac: any element, **except div** with an overflow other 
than the default collapses in height.
http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/overflow/#overflowblock

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://emps.l-c-n.com/

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RE: [WSG] Fair usage of Pre and a Mac issue with it

[Mike Foskett]

Hi y'all,

I rewrote part of my site at the weekend and coded XHTML examples in pre 
elements.

The width of the content area is 400px. 
I need to display examples of code that are wider.
Keeping the white space is very useful too.

Example:

pre
#menu span  {position:absolute; visibility:hidden; width:230px; 
min-height:150px; _height:150px; background:#fff}
/pre

CSS applied:
pre {width:96%; height:auto; font:110%/130% monospace; clear:both; margin:1em 
auto 2em auto; padding:0.5em; background:#fff0d0; border:1px dotted #ccf; 
clip:auto; overflow:auto; _overflow-x:scroll; scrollbar-base-color:#eef}

Valid XHTML strict, CSS has IE fixes: _overflow-x:scroll; 
scrollbar-base-color:#eef

This raised a few questions:

1. Is it semantically acceptable to use pre in this manner?
2. Would using a mix of pre and code be better?
3. Why doesn't Mac IE v5.2 display the content in the pre? It appears to not 
be stretching the height.

Alternatively if anyone has an example of how to display indented code 
examples, while retaining layout format and providing horizontal scrolling when 
required. I'd love to see it.


Thanks for reading


mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] Accessible disjointed rollover issues - please help!

[Mike Foskett]

 
Hi,

I'm having difficulties creating a standards based, accessible, disjointed 
rollover.

Demo: http://www.websemantics.co.uk/test/procurement/

It works fine in Firefox and Netscape, that's with or without JavaScript.

It even works to 90% in IE v6. Issues:

Without JavaScript: mixing mouse hover and keyboard focus - causes 
overlaying text.

With JavaScript: mixing mouse and keyboard - causes text to disappear 
while using the keyboard.

There's also an issue with tabbing backwards.


Real problems start to manifest in IE v5 and Safari:

Without JavaScript: No text displayed via keyboard or mouse - probably 
because of using #step a:hover span {}

With JavaScript: No text displayed when tabbing with keyboard but okay 
with mouse.


Any help appreciated

Mike 2k:)2



 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 




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RE: [WSG] Best way to embed WMV file in webpage?

[Mike Foskett]

Neerav,

It doesn't work on a Mac (Safari or IE).
It's probably best to convert it to Flash anyway. 
Check out Swishvideo for a quick and easy method: http://swishzone.com/

Regards

Mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 



-Original Message-
From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 02 June 2005 02:07
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Best way to embed WMV file in webpage?

Hi

I have to embed a WMV (Windows Media Video) file on a page in a clients website 
and would appreciate any tips to improve the code used in my test page at 
http://www.rci.com.au/en/test/test.htm

FYI a quick test in Firefox, IE6 and Opera 8 worked fine

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au

Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for iFocus, Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts 
http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav
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RE: [WSG] Section 508 validation errors

[Mike Foskett]

Tee,

Possibly associate labels:

 labeltext description input name=Instructions49 type=text 
class=inputField id=instructions  //label

Or better still:

label for=instructionstext description/label
input name=Instructions49 type=text class=inputField id=instructions  
/

But make sure you don't repeat id's.


Mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 



-Original Message-
From: tee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 19 May 2005 15:01
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Section 508 validation errors

Hi, Can you tell me what did I do wrong?

 input name=Instructions49 type=text class=inputField
id=instructions  /

 * Failure - INPUT Element, of Type TEXT, found at Line: 173, Column: 6

I changed the id to 'value' and it showed different error.

Rule: 1.1.2 - All INPUT elements are required to contain the alt attribute or 
use a LABEL.

Below are the input area that didn't pass the Cynthia Says Report The url: 
http://www.joaquindeli.com/orderform.html Page is xhtml strict.

* Failure - INPUT Element, of Type TEXT, found at Line: 173, Column: 6
* Failure - INPUT Element, of Type TEXT, found at Line: 194, Column: 6
* Failure - INPUT Element, of Type TEXT, found at Line: 212, Column: 6
* Warning - INPUT Element found at Line: 215, Column: 24 uses an implicit 
label, which is not recommended.
* Failure - INPUT Element, of Type TEXT, found at Line: 230, Column: 6
* Warning - INPUT Element found at Line: 283, Column: 26 uses an implicit 
label, which is not recommended.


Thanks.

Tee

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RE: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?

[Mike Foskett]

I completely agree, use Flash.
I'd say the same for video too, for the same reasons.

Why:
  One solution multiple platforms.
  Saturation on all computers is over 90%. That's more than any browser.
  No platform compatibility issues Mac / PC.
  No browser issues Firefox / IE / Netscape / Opera.

With a single start / stop button in Flash, alongside a link to download the 
file.


IMHO

Mike 2k:)2



 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 



-Original Message-
From: Stevio [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 17 May 2005 17:01
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?

What is the benefit in using Flash to do something that you can quite easily do 
without flash?

Stephen

- Original Message -
From: sam sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?


I would use Flash to play the audio and provide an alternative link to the 
sound file as alternative content

 thanks  SS 



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RE: [WSG] make poverty history website

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Sam,

Is there a reason why 
http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/video/?pageVideo=/flv/clickuk512k.flv does 
not display in Firefox v1.0.3 ? 

Reading the associated articles it should do, and when it doesn't it should 
display an alternative text version, though MPH probably forgot.



Mike 
2k:)2
 



-Original Message-
From: sam sherlock [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 17 May 2005 17:13
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] make poverty history website

Hi List,

I visited the www.makepovertyhistory.org website last night and was pleased to 
see that the site uses Geoff Sterns FlashObject.  This seems to reaffirm my 
opinion that the flashObject method of placing flash in the page is more 
approprate than the MM object / embed code and flash satay or other technics 
used elsewhere.

I consider this to be a real world issue in developing modern websites, 
standard or otherwise since flash and rich media is often an important part of 
the build of the site (clients and user like it when it works well)

So I wanted to know what the list thinks of the flashObject technic and other 
alternatives out there?



More info can be found on Flash Object here:
http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/

Flash Satay
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/

sIFR
http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr


atb  SS
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RE: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Stephen, 

As stated the best method to embed sound is using Flash but there are other 
techniques.

This is the last version I used for playing a single MP3 with a play / stop 
button:

In XHTML:
object id=sound classid=clsid:22D6F312-B0F6-11D0-94AB-0080C74C7E95 
height=25px width=25px
  param name=AutoStart value=0 /
  param name=ShowAudioControls value=0 /
  param name=ShowTracker value=0 /
  param name=filename value=/sounds/systole.mp3 /
  embed id=sound2 src=/sounds/systole.mp3 controls=smallconsole 
autostart=false align=absbottom height=18 width=18/embed
/object

In CSS:
#sound  {display:inline; margin:0 0.5em}


Personally it's an awful method, and it does not validate.

I'd wait for Patrick Lauke's example then look at Sam Sherlock's post make 
poverty history for methods to embed it into a page.


Mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 



-Original Message-
From: Stevio [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 17 May 2005 18:30
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?

Is there no standard way then to play an audio file (say mp3 for arguments
sake) using the object tag?

Is the only standard way to just link to it using a href=file.mp3?

Stephen

- Original Message -
From: Mike Foskett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?


I completely agree, use Flash.
I'd say the same for video too, for the same reasons.

Why:
  One solution multiple platforms.
  Saturation on all computers is over 90%. That's more than any browser.
  No platform compatibility issues Mac / PC.
  No browser issues Firefox / IE / Netscape / Opera.

With a single start / stop button in Flash, alongside a link to download the 
file. 



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Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 17/05/2005

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RE: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?

[Mike Foskett]

Geoff,

Stat based on these figures from Macromedia:

Macromedia Flash by Version

March 2005   V. 2   V. 3   V. 4   V. 5   V. 6 *   V. 7 * 
 
US   98.3%  98.2%  98.1%  97.8%  96.8%90.0% 
Canada   98.8%  98.7%  98.7%  98.6%  97.0%90.3% 
Europe   99.3%  99.2%  99.2%  99.2%  97.7%92.3% 
Asia 97.1%  97.1%  96.8%  96.6%  93.9%86.3% 


Not an exactitude as far as the browser was concerned but you get the idea.

   
Mike 2k:)2  




-Original Message-
From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 17 May 2005 18:57
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?

Mike Foskett wrote:

I completely agree, use Flash.
I'd say the same for video too, for the same reasons.

Why:
  One solution multiple platforms.
  Saturation on all computers is over 90%. That's more than any browser.
  


What data is this statistic based on?


Regards
Geoff Deering
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RE: [WSG] frames

[Mike Foskett]

Sometimes frames make good sense to use. 
I created a web page checker / validator using an XHTML frameset for the 
results:
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/pilotworkshop/page_checker/ 

I believe the use is both semantic and accessible.
It was created as an example of framesets rather than as a tool.

Mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 



-Original Message-
From: heretic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 12 May 2005 12:12
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] frames

hi,

 Can anyone tell me if/when it is 'OK' to use frames?  Since the W3C 
 spec still includes them, I wondered (if) when it was considered legit 
 to employ them - on a par with tables, which are avoided at all costs, 
 except when displaying 'tabular data'.  So I assume the W3C have 
 included frames in the spec for some good reason?
 An example URL (or two) would be great.
 Please don't turn this into a rant (or worse) - it's a serious question.

Frames are not inherently evil, it's more that people tend to use them very 
badly. It's sort of fashionable to abhor frames, too ;) I've heard it all, 
since I am currently stuck with them at work.

You'll find that a lot of major portal applications and content management 
systems tend to produce framesets (or use them for their admin interface), so 
it's not like they're about to vanish.

On top of that, a frameset which validates will not look right. eg If you want 
invisible frame borders you're basically stuck with invalid documents (if 
anyone can show a technique to the contrary I'd be very happy :)).

The key problem is that you have to leave off the DOCTYPE, however you can mark 
everything up so that it *works* even though it doesn't validate.

The key things to do are
1) keep the frameset as simple as possible,
2) ensure you title each frame appropriately 
[http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#frame-names],
3) avoid nesting framesets, and
4) make sure the noframes includes links to all framed documents. if nothing 
else, search engine bots generally don't read framesets, they read the noframes.

No doubt I'll need to retreat to a fireproof bunker now ;)

cheers,

h

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--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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RE: [WSG] CSS Document layout/structure

[Mike Foskett]

Hmm interesting.

There is no right or wrong way to do these as far as I'm aware.

I use one definition per line, in a standard order (ish), all in short form.
I find it easier to scan down the page for class or id, then across for the 
property and value.

Currently I'm thinking of separating colour from the standard sheet.
But only because we have a very large site and colour is used to indicate 
sub-sections.


/* /folder/filename.css */

/* Browser  platform leveller */

* {margin:0; border:0 solid; padding:0; font:100.1% Verdana, Helvetica, 
sans-serif}
html {height:100%}
body {width:???; min-height:101%; background:#fff; color:#000; margin:0 
auto; text-align:center}


/* Element styling - font-sizing should go no further than this section */
/* block */
/* links */
/* lists */
/* form */
/* inputs assigned a class equivalent to type */


/* Global class styling */
.warning
.sorry
.autowide
.left
.center
.right


/* id block styling - in the order they appear on the page */

#accessibility 
#banner 
#search
#breadcrumb
#container
#navigation

/* content specific area */
#content
/* content specific area */

#footer

/* late additions are added at the end with author / date / page details */







 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: Hugues Brunelle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 07 April 2005 14:17
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS Document layout/structure


Hi Charlie,
I know what you mean, I did many redesign stuff and find out that I wasn't able 
to understand my own css file (that was awful). You can see a sample at 
http://www.echo3d.com/css/screen.css
It looks complex but if you pay attention, you'll see that everything is in 
order.

Here is some simple rules I apply and know what? I am not lost anymore in my 
CSS :)

Hugues Brunelle
Concepteur graphique
 
//
ECHO tridimension
2139 rue Masson
Montréal QC  H2H 1A8
 
1-(514)5211360
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


4 simple rules : 

1.0 Divide your one and only (I split CSS only for different media, not for 
different part of design.) CSS structure into 3 main themes like

/* GENERIC ELEMENTS : HTML 4.01 */
/* SPECIFIC ATTRIBUTES : ID */
/* RECURRING ATTRIBUTES : CLASS */

2.0 Use alphabetic because code should not rule the way you design (think about 
when you start shifting stuff on top and moving others on bottom)

/* GENERIC ELEMENTS : HTML 4.01 */

a {
}
abbr {
}
acronym {
}

/* SPECIFIC ATTRIBUTES : ID */
/* RECURRING ATTRIBUTES : CLASS */

3.0 Make good use of descendant selectors

/* GENERIC ELEMENTS : HTML 4.01 */

a {
}
abbr {
}
acronym {
}
h1 {
}
h1 em {
}
h1 em a {
}

/* SPECIFIC ATTRIBUTES : ID */
/* RECURRING ATTRIBUTES : CLASS */

4.0 Choose the appropriate terminology to keep alphabetic order logical and 
respect it no matter what (avoid terms like red-text or 1em in your class 
or id name)

/* GENERIC ELEMENTS : HTML 4.01 */

a {
}
abbr {
}
acronym {
}
h1 {
}
h1 em {
}
h1 em a {
}

/* SPECIFIC ATTRIBUTES : ID */

div#content {
}
div#content_body {
}
div#content_foot {
}
div#content_head {

/* RECURRING ATTRIBUTES : CLASS */






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This footnote also

RE: [WSG] Styling Forms

[Mike Foskett]

I'm currently suggesting all input elements have a class to reflect the type.
So they can be controlled via CSS a little easier.
e.g.
  input type=radio class=radio
  input type=checkbox class=checkbox
  input type=submit class=submit
  input type=text class=radio
etc.

Are there any associated issues that I've not considered?


regards


mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 


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RE: [WSG] Hidden Content

[Mike Foskett]

Hi all,

I don't actually believe that CSS styling will make any difference to search 
engine ranking.
These robots spend enough time trawling through the HTML content.
It would be time wasted to cross reference the content against: visibility, 
display, colours used, z-index and positioning.

I recently thought I had a holding page barred for unintentional content 
stuffing / hiding.
http://www.senuik.com/ 
On asking Google it turns out it wasn't, just ranked low (lack of links I 
presume) appearing at 20 and 27.

The 'hiding' methods used were colour and positioning.
The intent was for styled text to display when Flash wasn't available 
(accessibility).

My point is if this page wasn't barred then I think it incredibly unlikely that 
other hiding techniques would be.

Does anyone actually know of a page barred, blacklisted or banned by Google?
I somehow doubt they ever do. 
Something to do with possible litigation if they are incorrect in their 
analysis?

These are just my thoughts on the matter and are in no way conclusive.



mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: Tom Livingston [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 30 March 2005 19:56
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Hidden Content


So you're using one practice to compensate for another bad practice...


If your site is entirely in Flash - well, too bad. It shouldn't be.

Well.

Flash actually is searchable. There's even a 
search SDK for search engines. It's also 
accessible, with tab order/indexing, etc.

If your site is entirely Flash, it _is_ a good 
idea to have an (X)HTML-based alternative for 
those who don't have, or won't install, the 
plug-in (the number of which is declining daily). 
If this is the case, a link to it (like in the 
footer) will allow even better spidering by 
search engines.

2¢ deposited...

-- 
-
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
mlinc.com
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RE: [WSG] Hidden Content

[Mike Foskett]

It still comes down to the legalities.
If Google receive a complaint, and it appears justifiable, then it is acted 
upon in good faith.
There is a document trail which is admissible as proof.

If a googlebot, on the other hand, automatically bans a site for what it thinks 
is wrong.
Then Google are solely responsible, and could be deemed as acting upon impulse 
rather than on due consideration.
A point lawyers would love to take to court.

But again this is only opinion.
Maybe the question should've been Have you heard of a site banned, barred or 
blacklisted without a complaint?

regards

mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: Kay Smoljak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 31 March 2005 12:50
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Hidden Content


On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:46:23 +0100, Mike Foskett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I don't actually believe that CSS styling will make any difference to 
 search engine ranking. These robots spend enough time trawling through 
 the HTML content. It would be time wasted to cross reference the 
 content against: visibility, display, colours used, z-index and 
 positioning.

You can see what search engines request by looking at your log files. They've 
never requested my css files. However, I read somewhere a Google staff member 
said something like we reserve the right to index css files or not which 
means they may start in the future.

 Does anyone actually know of a page barred, blacklisted or banned by 
 Google? I somehow doubt they ever do.

They do ban sites - it happened to one of my clients (although nothing to do 
with css) and it took about eight months of campaigning to get the site 
included again. However, the biggest risk is your competitors
- if I see a site spamming a search engine I report it. Many people do the 
same, and there *have* been cases of the engines taking action.

-- 
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com/
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RE: [WSG] Color LCD Monitors vs traditional Monitors

[Mike Foskett]

Hi,

LCD screens are prone to fading in both brightness and saturation over time.

From the WAI accessibility guidelines:
2.2 Ensure that foreground and background colour combinations provide 
sufficient contrast. 

There is also a perceivable difference between Mac and PC (LCD or CRT) due to 
different gamma settings.

So avoid subtle colour effects, they don't always work.


mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: Carl Reynolds [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 22 March 2005 15:29
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Color LCD Monitors vs traditional Monitors


Nancy Johnson wrote:

 Dear Webstandards,
  
 Are there any articles or standards out there that talk about how to
 pick colors for both LCD and traditional monitors?
  
 I have a website that is an intense blue that looks great in a
 tradiational monitor but looks terrible in an LCD monitor.
  
 Nancy Johnson

 --
 --
 Do you Yahoo!?
 Make Yahoo! your home page 
 http://us.rd.yahoo.com/my/navbar/sethp/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs%20 

I haven't seen any articles on the subject, but I know that I won't use 
an LCD screen when I'm picking colors for a site or an image. Every LCD 
screen I have ever worked on has a distinct blue cast to it and cause 
the colors to come out wrong.

Of course picking colors is very subjective anyway. Even between two CRT 
screens I see a major shift in the colors. I assume that if I am seeing 
that much of a shift between two fairly closely calibrated screens in 
the same office, there is now way I can count on anyone viewing my site 
seeing the exact same colors I see.


Carl.



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RE: [WSG] acronym and abbr and worms

[Mike Foskett]

Patrick:
  However, for people who do like to split hairs, I'd take this one step 
 further and say: does WORD imply pronouncability? Discuss...

er.. pronouncability?

Apparently under US law it is completely acceptable for a name to be spelt 
Brown yet pronounced Smith.

Generally speaking acronyms and initialised abbreviations are slowly becoming 
synonymous.
English is a living language and as such words may change meaning with time. 
For example gay.

But enough of the pedantry.

;)

mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 17 March 2005 11:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] acronym and abbr and worms


 russ - maxdesign

 Acronyms
 --
 Acronyms are a subset of abbreviations, as they are still
 shortened words.
 However, they are more specific. An acronym is defined as a 
 WORD formed from
 the initial letters of a multi-word name. The important point 
 here is that
 an acronym must be a WORD - this means that the joined 
 initial letters must
 be able to be pronounced.

And this is where the worms usually are...the requirement for pronouncability 
of the formed word. Certain developers (me included, I'm afraid) don't see this 
as a main sticking point, and would put initialisms into acronym, rather than 
abbreviation.

We *could* start debating this again, but because:

- acronyms are abbreviations, and therefore initialisms marked up as acronyms 
are therefore still abbreviations
- the distinction of acronm and abbreviation is removed in XHTML2.0 (yes, I 
know...in 2021 when we'll finally be using it)
- no current semantic tool makes any hard distinction between them

I'd say it becomes an exercise in splitting hairs. The main key is
consistency: whether you think initialisms are acronyms or abbreviations, 
choose a camp and stick with it. If, for instance, you consistently mark up 
HTML as acronym title=HyperText Markup LanguageHTML/acronym on all your 
pages, and later find out that you were wrong (once the gods of semantics 
appear to you in a dream, or something), you can still do a site-wide replace 
for it (or, heck, use XSLT to transform all your XHTML, whatever).

However, for people who do like to split hairs, I'd take this one step further 
and say: does WORD imply pronouncability? Discuss...

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] question about CSS menu (javascript)

[Mike Foskett]

Try this:

window.onload=show;

function show(id) {
var d = document.getElementById(id);
for (var i = 1; i=10; i++) {
if (document.getElementById('submenu'+i)) 
{document.getElementById('submenu'+i).style.display='none';}
}
if (d) {d.style.display='block';}
}


function showhide(id) {
if (document.getElementById(id).style.display==none){
document.getElementById(id).style.display=block
}
else{
document.getElementById(id).style.display=none
}
}

in HTML:

  dta href=#Home page/a/dt
  dt onclick=javascript:showhide('submenu1');Technology/dt

Though I'm sure the JavaScript could be cut further.


Regards

Mike 2k:)2


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 16 March 2005 10:09
To: web standards group
Subject: [WSG] question about CSS menu (javascript)


Hello.  I'm doing a drop-down menu (a bit differently than usual), and 
there is only one thing I can't seem to accomplish.

The menu is at http://www.drzeus.net/lab/verticalmenu.html

The user should be able to click on a tab to expand it, which it 
currently does, but clicking it again should contract the menu (that's 
the part I need help with, please).

I realize that a javascript question isn't exactly about standards, but 
since the menu itself is XHTML/CSS, and hopefully others will find the 
menu useful.

Thank you.
-- 

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter
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RE: [WSG] Site Review...

[Mike Foskett]

David,

http://www.w3bdevil.com/turkeys/

With a quick once over the only issues I noticed were accessibility ones:

1. Colour contrast appears insufficient? White text on light-grey background. 
   2.2 Ensure that foreground and background colour combinations provide 
sufficient contrast [Priority 2 for images, Priority 3 for text].

2. Linearization of content. Reference is made to the navigation being on the 
left. With styles off it isn't. Be careful.
   6.1 Organize documents so they may be read without style sheets

3. A skip to content link may be beneficial. Skips may be required for each 
navigation block too for AAA conformance.
   13.6 Group related links, identify the group, and provide a way to bypass 
the group.

4. A fieldset on the contact form may be appropriate.

Probably superfluous but:

5. Abbreviations.
   4.2 Specify the expansion of each abbreviation or acronym in a document 
where it first occurs.


Minor points really 'cept for the first one.


Hope it helps


mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: David R [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 08 February 2005 12:06
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Site Review...


'Lo

Just made a couple of minisites all mostly buzzword compliant, just 
requesting comments :)

http://www.w3bdevil.com/scripts/ http://www.w3bdevil.com/turkeys/

And can I just get some feedback on this older site of mine...

http://www.w3bdevil.com/planetearth

N.B: I'm aware that /turkeys/ won't validate because I'm still debugging my 
CMS... I've been having database issues

Ciao!
--
-David R
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RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)

[Mike Foskett]

Ron, 

I agree with your summary except for More than four choices, use a select 
menu.

Surely it is better to show as many options as possible at the same time?
Stating four as a reasonable limit seems a little low.

Although with select inputs I would state Selects with less than 5 options 
should be coded as radio buttons it does not mean quite the same thing.



If anyone has a little spare time I'd appreciate comments / corrections on a 
proposed set of Accessible and usable form guidelines I've compiled: 
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_guidelines/ there's 17 of them so 
far. This has been a WIP since September.

I'm hoping to gain further clarity from this discussion over how best to define 
radio inputs and boolean choices.



mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Pringle, Ron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 02 February 2005 15:00
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Default state of radio buttons. (Maybe OT?)



 Radio button groups exist for precisely the situation where there is
 one and only one option that must be chosen. That's how they have 
 always worked.

John hit the nail on the head. If you come to a situation where you're 
attempting to use radio buttons and the above does not apply, then you need 
something other than radio buttons. Radio buttons are like on/off light 
switches. The light switch is either on or its off.

1. If you're in a situation where you want a default value checked, but want to 
allow the user to deselect it without inserting another value, use a check box.

2. If you want a default value checked, but want to allow the user to 
alternately choose a different value (up to four choices), then use a radio 
button. More than four choices, use a select menu.

While it appears that the standards allow you to NOT assign a default value to 
a radio button set, I'd say this is non-intuitive from a user experience 
standpoint. Plus, a value will be chosen by the browser anyhow, if I'm reading 
the previous posts correctly.

So in this specific situation, where the user is allowed to choose male, female 
or no answer, number 2 above seems to be the most applicable. And seeing as 
they are allowed to not specify gender, I would default to no answer. Even if 
they might have provided an answer and simply forgot to, you've signified that 
the answer is not important/relevant, so it shouldn't make any difference to 
you if they willingly chose to specify gender or not.

HTH

Regards,
Ron
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RE: [WSG] MSN redesign

[Mike Foskett]

sarcasm
  Nice of them to continue support for Mac IE.
/sarcasm



mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] Forms using CSS

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Ryan,

I have a list of form guidelines including links to resources which may be of 
use:
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_guidelines/


Regards

mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] the propsed table/form - - was: Can I use a table in a form?

[Mike Foskett]

Ted,

From a screen reader point of view the user has to have titles switched on 
which is not too much to ask.
Personally I'd shorten the title, it does not need to say Enter the, keep 
them as brief as possible to the point of being curt.
Otherwise you can imagine the amount of excess noise that is generated.

Alt attributes have no place here.
Title attributes are better than nothing.
Labels, even hidden, would best suit the purpose.

Although a few arguments have arisen here over the exact semantics to use.
There are always more than one correct solution, usually dependent on where 
your mindset came from.

The labelling you've implemented is not really much help it only labels the 
first row as the id's are unique.
Try this instead:

  tr
th scope=colTraveler #/th
th scope=colFirst Name/th
th scope=colLast Name/th
th scope=colAge/th
  /tr

Along with the briefest of titles on each input.

If your aim is to produce code to WAI priorities above level A then you will 
need to add labels to each input.
As previously mentioned they do not have to be visible though do not use 
display:none or visibility:hidden.
There are other techniques which do work well.


Good luck


mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Mike Foskett]

Sorry Andy,

I'll have to agree to disagree.
Personally speaking, the use of a table to layout tabular input is as valid as 
using a table to layout tabular output.
Though I have no issue with other semantically correct methods previously 
outlined.
In most scenarios I prefer them.

The conceptual model I use is not from OOP but database manipulation Sources  
Sinks.
Where data input and data output are conceptually the positive and negative of 
the same thing.
This does not change solely because of using (X)HTML to describe them.

As far as the original issue is concerned.
I completely concur that a more usable and accessible solution is bite-sizing 
the input, thereby escaping the need for tabular input completely.
Though inevitably the final solution remains in the hands of the developer.


Warm regards

mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 13 January 2005 09:55
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?



On 12 Jan 2005, at 18:25, Mike Foskett wrote:

 Creating a method of output without an equivalent method of input
 seems more than oversight.

Forms are a means of input. Tables are a means of displaying tabular 
data.

Input and output mechanisms rarely have to be the same. I input data to 
a computer using a keyboard. It's output to screen.

 An input is a data object.
 Data objects stacked neatly by row and file are by definition tabular.

Sorry, but that's utter rot. If you're going to get all OOP on my ass, 
input would be a data object method, whereas the data it's self would 
be a property of the object. Completely different things!

You can come up with as many ways to justify the use of layout tables 
for forms, but it doesn't make it right!

Andy Budd

http://www.message.uk.com/

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RE: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Mike Foskett]

Using a table is not an issue, form data is tabular.

For accessibility I'd suggest using a label on each input but hide it visually 
using one of the standard techniques.

table id=grouptravel summary=Group travel quote border=0
  thead
  tr
th class=hidden scope=colGroup/th
th scope=colAge Range/th
th scope=colNumber of travellers/th
th scope=colTrip cost per person/th
  /tr
  /thead
  tbody
  tr
th scope=rowGroup 1/th
td
  label for=agerange1Age Range/label
  select id=agerange1
optionblah/option
...
  /select
/td
td
  label for=numberoftravellers1number of travellers/label
  input type=text id=numberoftravellers1 value= size=4 
maxlength=4 /
/td
td
  label for=costpertraveller1cost per traveller/label
  input type=text id=costpertraveller1 value= size=4 maxlength=4 
/
/td
  /tr

... Etc

  /tbody
/table

style type=text/css
  #grouptravel {width:500px}
  #grouptravel label {width:0; height:0; overflow:hidden}
  #grouptravel .hidden {width:0; height:0; overflow:hidden}
/style

Reasoning:
Hardly anyone using a screen reader switches on table headings to be read per 
table cell.


Hope it helps

mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Mike Foskett]

Andy Budd wrote: 
Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular 
data, it's an input mechanism.

Er... Agreed.
I was of the opinion, perhaps incorrectly, that the form in question was 
intended to input tabular data hence the table.


Andy Budd wrote: 
how is hiding the label going to improve accessibility?

The use of a label on such a table would be to aide screen readers specifically.
Yes they can read headers but in practice this feature is rarely switched on.
So by using a hidden label the screen reader states the label text, while the 
display remains uncluttered.



mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 12 January 2005 10:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?


Mike Foskett wrote:

 Using a table is not an issue, form data is tabular.

You say that like it's fact when it's really a matter of opinion.

Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular 
data, it's an input mechanism.

It seems crazy to me that people will come up with spurious arguments 
simply to justify using a table. If you want to use a table, just do 
it.

 For accessibility I'd suggest using a label on each input but hide it
 visually using one of the standard techniques.

Um, how is hiding the label going to improve accessibility?


Andy Budd

http://www.message.uk.com/

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RE: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?

[Mike Foskett]

Ted:
Don't hide labels with display:none. Screen readers don't see it either.
I'd suggest something more like:
.hidden {width:0; height:0; overflow:hidden; font-size:1px}
Or use a method that shifts the text off screen to the left.

Maybe consider the approach below even if it has too many repeated labels.
Personally for thirty rows of four columns I'd use a table with table headings 
with hidden labels on each input.
To each their own.




Andy:
If forms were meant to be tabular they'd have fr's and fd's.
Therefore data output in tabular form is okay but data input is not.

I would have to disagree with the later statement. 
Creating a method of output without an equivalent method of input seems more 
than oversight.

An input is a data object.
Data objects stacked neatly by row and file are by definition tabular.





So a standards approach to tabular input?
How about this:

style type=text/css
#tabularform * {padding:0; margin:0}
#tabularform fieldset {background:#eee}
#tabularform label {margin:0 20px; white-space:nowrap}
#tabularform input.input-c1 {width:15%; padding:3px}
#tabularform input.input-c2 {padding:3px}
#tabularform input.input-c3 {width:100px; padding:3px}
#tabularform input.input-c4 {padding:3px}
/style

form id=tabularform

  fieldset
h1Group 1:/h1
label for=description_r1description input class=input-c1 
id=description_r1 type=text //label
label for=style_r1style
select class=input-c2 id=style_r1
optionstyle 1/option
optionstyle 2/option
optionstyle 3/option
/select
/label
label for=name_r1name input class=input-c3 id=name_r1 type=text 
//label
label for=check_r1input class=input-c4 id=check_r1 type=checkbox 
/ delete/label
  /fieldset

  fieldset
h1Group 2:/h1
label for=description_r2description input class=input-c1 
id=description_r2 type=text //label
label for=style_r2style
select class=input-c2 id=style_r2
optionstyle 1/option
optionstyle 2/option
optionstyle 3/option
/select
/label
label for=name_r2name input class=input-c3 id=name_r2 type=text 
//label
label for=check_r2input class=input-c4 id=check_r2 type=checkbox 
/ delete/label
  /fieldset

p .. repeat until funny/p

/form

Very neat, tabular and accessible. 
Now the issue is how many inputs per row and will they fit on the users display.




mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] London Web Standards Conference

[Mike Foskett]

Nice one

Just getting the boss to agree to pay and then I'm happy

mike


 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk

 




-Original Message-
From: Patrick Griffiths [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 11 January 2005 15:31
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] London Web Standards Conference


Just thought y'all'd like to know...

@media 2005: Web Standards  Accessibility is coming...

On the 9th and 10th June, well known web designers and accessibility experts 
including Jeffrey Zeldman, Doug Bowman, Joe Clark and a host of UK pro's will 
be descending on London to speak about the hottest issues in web design.

You can find out more, help to support and register on the shiny new
website:
http://www.atmedia2005.co.uk


Patrick


-
Patrick Griffiths
 Wrote a book: XHTML  CSS: A Web Standards Approach (New Riders)  Started a 
company: http://vivabit.co.uk  Made a web site: http://www.htmldog.com



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RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

[Mike Foskett]

I've just finished some interactive tutorials for content developers which 
may be of use. It only covers the basics but does get the point across (I 
think).
 http://www.websemantics.co.uk/workshop/sessions/session2/

Also you might need greater detail on forms:

 http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_guidelines/

hope it helps.

mike 2k:)2



-Original Message-
From:   Tim Burgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Thu 11/25/2004 10:11 AM
To: [WSG] Web Standards Group
Cc: 
Subject:[WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
Hi,


I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to 
study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide.

I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, 
but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet 
accessibility needs.

Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my 
knowledge regarding accessibility?


Thanks for your time.

Tim

-- 

Tim Burgan.
Website Development  Graphic Design

E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W www.timburgan.com



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RE: [WSG] How-to: Create a list with pictures / detail?

[Mike Foskett]

Try a definition list.

dl
dtimg //dt
ddaddress 1/dd
ddPhone number/dd
...
/dl

Float the dt to the left and clear:

dt {float:left; clear:left}

That should sort it semantically.

mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Kristof Rutten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 27 October 2004 19:32
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] How-to: Create a list with pictures / detail?


Hi,

  Semantical question. I have a list of sportscenters I need to display.

  I used to do this in a table layout. but how do I do this in 
semantically correct CSS/XHTML ?

   -
  | pic1  | address1 |
   -
  | pic2  | address2 |
  .
  .
  .
  | pic x | addressx |
   

  I've been thinking about floating left and right, seperate divs / 
spans, ...
  just don't know the best solution.

  Anyone with ideas ?

Regards, .K

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RE: [WSG] two column IE issues - SOLVED

[Mike Foskett]

Hi,

I'm having difficulties with that IE shift bug thing.
The one where the content moves when you hover over a link.

I've tried adding _height:100%; _line-height:100%; _width:100%
To every element in the div to no avail.

Example here: http://www.websemantics.co.uk/workshop/sessions/session2/
Hover over any Activity link and the div box changes proportions.
Hover over a footer link and it changes back.

Are there any solutions to this?

Cheers.

mike 2k:)2
 
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[WSG] RE: Content moves on hover in IE

[Mike Foskett]

Hi,

I'm having difficulties with that IE shift bug thing.
The one where the content moves when you hover over a link.

I've tried adding _height:100%; _line-height:100%; _width:100% To every element in the 
div to no avail.

Example here: http://www.websemantics.co.uk/workshop/sessions/session2/
Hover over any Activity link and the div box changes proportions. Hover over a 
footer link and it changes back.

Are there any solutions to this?

Cheers.

mike 2k:)2
 
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RE: [WSG] Shifting

[Mike Foskett]

Thanks Bennie,

That's saved hours of work.

Just changing vertical %'s to em's. It seems to be working.


mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Bennie Shepherd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 28 October 2004 09:34
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Shifting


I had that same problem with I IE6. I switched from % to pix in vertical 
padding and margins and it took care of the problem.

I'm having difficulties with that IE shift bug thing.
The one where the content moves when you hover over a link.

I've tried adding _height:100%; _line-height:100%; _width:100% To every element in the 
div to no avail.

-- 
Get Firefox Browser http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliatesamp;id=6908amp;t=58

Bennie's MIDI Page
http://bennieshepherd.com/

Athens, Georgia, Relay For Life
http://www.athensrelay.net/

Montrose, Colorado, Relay For Life
http://montroserelay.com/

Grand Junction, Colorado, Relay For Life http://grandjunctionrelay.org

LZ Friendly Veterans Org
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RE: [WSG] How-to: Create a list with pictures / detail?

[Mike Foskett]

Sorry Patrick,

Yes I was stating the image is a data object which comprised of many individual 
characteristics (data definitions), sorta XML stylie.
I was also suggesting that Phone number was not necessarily attached to the address, 
but definitely attached to the image.

dl
dtimg ... alt=image of house //dt
  ddaddressPhysical address/address/dd
  ddPhone number/dd
...
/dl


Am I incorrect in this belief?




mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 28 October 2004 14:41
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mike Foskett
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] How-to: Create a list with pictures / detail?


Quoting Mike Foskett
 Try a definition list.

 dl
 dtimg //dt
 ddaddress 1/dd
 ddPhone number/dd
 ...
 /dl

Not too sure about this, as the multiple DDs would imply separate, independent 
definitions that all refer to the image (whereas an address needs to be grouped 
together, and each lines is not independent from the other lines.

Patrick H. Lauke



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RE: [WSG] WE04 Summary (blowing my own trumpet)

[Mike Foskett]

Try this:

Accessible  usable forms: Guidelines, examples and JavaScript tricks.
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_guidelines/



mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 28 October 2004 15:08
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] WE04 Summary (blowing my own trumpet)


 From: Nancy Johnson
1. Where can I find a good example of how forms should be laid out  for 
accessibility.

Two decent ones:

http://www.webaim.org/techniques/forms/
http://www.accessify.com/tutorials/better-accessible-forms.asp

2. Comment on div tags. If we are not suppose to use tables for  layout 
and div tags are supposed to be used with restraint.  What  other 
options with layout are there?

What other options do you need? A lot of people switching from table based to 
tableless end up wrapping all sorts of things in divs (and assigning hundreds of 
classes, rather than taking advantage of all other types of selectors, and overusing 
spans) when it's not necessary. For instance: a lot of elements are already block 
containers by default, so there's no point in wrapping them up in an extra div to 
float them or position them.

e.g. instead of something like this

div id=navigation
ul
li.../li
li.../li
li.../li
/ul
/div

you can just do

ul id=navigation
li.../li
li.../li
li.../li
/ul

And even if elements are not block level by nature, they can be forced to display as 
such with display: block in CSS.

Hmm...just seen that Aaron already replied while I was still typing, pretty much 
saying the same thing...but what the heck, I've wrote this much, I'm going to send it 
anyway ;)

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] skip to content (was: Site Review Request)

[Mike Foskett]

Clarify the destination.

So if there is more than one set of content B. otherwise A.

mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 27 October 2004 09:38
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] skip to content (was: Site Review Request)


So, what do others think?

A. skip to content
B. skip to main content
C. skip navigation

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter




Damian Sweeney wrote:
 Regarding skip to content links, I found this article recently about
 usability testing of screen reader users:
 
 http://www.stcsig.org/usability/newsletter/0304-observing.html
 
 In particular under the 'Many want to skip the navigation, but don't 
 use
 that feature' section:
 
 Some developers have used the phrase Skip to Content instead of 
 Skip
 Navigation. Good idea. But it does not work because content in 
 English can be a noun or an adjective. JAWS reads it here as an 
 adjective with the accent on the second syllable. So it does not make 
 sense to users. A solution that does seem to work is Skip to Main 
 Content. JAWS reads that correctly as the noun content with the 
 accent on the first syllable.
 
 Cheers,
 
 Damian
 
 I like it.  Clean and simple.

 IMO, you should include a skip to content link for the screen 
 readers.

 ~john
 _
 Dr. Zeus Web Development
 http://www.DrZeus.net
 content without clutter




 Daniel Bowling wrote:

 Hello, I would greatly appreciate any feedback for my personal site 
 regarding design, standards compliance, usability and general code 
 quality.

 http://www.danbowling.com

 Thank you for your time,

 Dan Bowling
 W: http://www.danbowling.com
 
 
 

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RE: [WSG] Embed tag, object and web standards

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Sajith,

You'll find that there isn't currently a method for insetting Flash or other media 
that:
1. Validates to XHTML
2. Displays reliably cross browser, cross platform.

Currently the best advice is to validate media content pages as HTML v4 transitional.
The other option, which is cheating, is to use JavaScript to write the object / embed 
elements into the HTML.
The page validates but the code is not valid.

Hope that helps.

mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Sajith A [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 19 October 2004 14:51
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Embed tag, object and web standards


Hello
Jaime of sodesires told me about this site and nice to see that a lot of healthy 
discussion is going on here.

I came to know about web standards very recently and i'm trying to do a site 
implementing it. In one of the pages i have to play windows and real media and for 
that i'm using a combination of  object and embed tags. But embed is not 
supported by w3c and object tag alone didn't  display the player for me in mozilla. I 
found a similar issue solved for flash at alistapart.com. Has anyone ecountered this 
before for media players.

Any suggestions/help will be highly appreciated.

Thank you for your time and consideration
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RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash

[Mike Foskett]

Just checked it in:

PC: Opera v7, Firefox v1, IE v6.
Mac: Safari v1, firefox v1, Netscape v7, IE v5.2

All displayed just fine.
I'd remind you to replace some of the alt tags though (intro1.jpg etc).
And perhaps consider adding house doctor to the initial h1.

mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Ian Fenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 23 September 2004 11:58
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Embedding Flash


Mark wrote:
 Unless there is a major reason to be XHTML then I normally use HTML 
 4.01 - even if only on the pages with flash included.

That's what I'm going to do now :-(

Thanks for the help everyone!

All the best,

--
Ian

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RE: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content

[Mike Foskett]

Hi all,

The DRC's videos are done using a Flash front-end.
Quite liked the method and currently recommending it.
http://www.drc-gb.org/citizenship/talkvideos/index.asp



mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Hugh Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 07 September 2004 08:29
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content


Vicki,

If QuickTime is acceptable as a delivery medium, you can either:

1. incorporate closed captioning via a text track or

2. play images (or Flash) of text within the audio/video window. 
(Either in its own space or over the top of a movie [Flash images are 
better for the latter].)

For more info, see the QuickTime Developers page on the Apple site.

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/tools_tips/tutorials/ (in particular the 
Text Tracks tutorial)

-Hugh Todd

The only tool you would need for this would be QuickTime Pro, available 
(as a key to unlock its powers) online from Apple.

 So... what's the best way to caption audio content?

 How is video content usually made accessible?

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RE: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0

[Mike Foskett]

Lisa,
I've been doing a little work on this subject:

  Accessible form guidelines.
  Attaching focus to objects via with  JS via the DOM.
  Accessible expanded help.

It's still a work in progress (not that clear) but I'm happy to take critiques, 
suggestions, improvements, rewordings, e.t.c
It'll probably be a couple of months until it's finished.

  http://www.webSemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_elements/

Though I'd be hard pressed to recommend tabindex at all.

Hope it helps

mike 2k:)2
 

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-Original Message-
From: Herrod, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 25 August 2004 02:53
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: [WSG] tab index vs java script in xhtml 1.0


Looking for opinions on the use of  javascript for input control focus and tab index, 
instead of actually using the 'tabindex' attribute...

I understnd that incomplete browser support of tabindex might influence this choice, 
ie javascript. But this would then force the use of the 'name' attribute which is 
formally deprecated in xhtml 1.0.

I guess it improves accessibility but reduces compliance.

Any thoughts?

Lisa

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RE: [WSG] Absolute positioning vs floats

[Mike Foskett]

Hi Anura,

Personally, I go with floats every time. 
Absolute positioning relies on the display size too much. 
It also allows coders to apply fixes to the document flow.

Have you considered the documents appearance on a 160px wide PDA?
How about a Braille reader?

mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 25 August 2004 07:38
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Absolute positioning vs floats


I noticed someone made the comment that the preferred floats to absolute positioning.

I have just created a new design using absolute positioning. It 'seems' to work across 
IE, Mozilla, Opera and latest Netscape (I'm trying to forget about NS4.7).

But what is the consensus amongst my esteemed colleagues here? Am I walking into a 
trap? Are there flaws in absolute positioning so terrible that something will break 
dreadfully somewhere?

AS


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RE: [WSG] Absolute positioning vs floats

[Mike Foskett]

Nick,

Surely you wouldn't deliver the layout CSS to either of these 
devices... semantically structured text and (for the PDA) minimal 
relevant images only - ?

Quite correct, I wouldn't, but I've noticed one user on a PDA device that completely 
ignored the mobile device CSS.
One more plus for elastic designs.


mike 2k:)2
 
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-Original Message-
From: Nick Gleitzman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 25 August 2004 13:17
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Absolute positioning vs floats



On Wednesday, Aug 25, 2004, at 18:49 Australia/Sydney, Mike Foskett 
wrote:

 Have you considered the documents appearance on a 160px wide PDA? How 
 about a Braille reader?


Surely you wouldn't deliver the layout CSS to either of these 
devices... semantically structured text and (for the PDA) minimal 
relevant images only - ?

Nick
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/

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RE: [WSG] Absolute positioning vs floats

[Mike Foskett]

Kay,

There's not that much of a problem with IE v5.2 and floats.
Just avoid conditions where it incorrectly inherits and add clear's.

It's been a while since I've used absolute positioning (2 yrs plus).
Though I'm pretty sure we used to have problems with coordinate mapping on Mac IE.
I somehow doubt it's been corrected. 
Which meant that there has to be an offset value specifically stated for the IE v5.2 
on the Mac.

These days I wouldn't worry so much about IE on a Mac. 
Pretty much everyone uses Safari on OSX.


mike 2k:)2
 
marqueeblink
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
/marquee/blink
 


-Original Message-
From: Kay Smoljak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 25 August 2004 11:03
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Absolute positioning vs floats


On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:49:52 +0100, Mike Foskett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Personally, I go with floats every time.
 Absolute positioning relies on the display size too much.

I try to mix it up a bit - there's lots of browser bugs with floats (think Mac IE5). 
Absolute positioning is fantastic for stuffing the navigation and masthead fluff down 
the bottom of the source code (good for screen readers and search engines). You go 
with what suits the project.

-- 
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com/
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RE: [WSG] Div-based design example

[Mike Foskett]

John,

Personally I'd avoid position: absolute completely.
In this specific case:
Take the absolute positioning off the copyrighthome div and add a clear all.

#copyrighthome
{
 position: absolute;
 left: 180px;
 top: 460px;
}

becomes

#copyrighthome {margin-left:180px; clear:both}

hope that helps

mike foskett
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
 


-Original Message-
From: John Horner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 24 August 2004 05:27
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Div-based design example


A friend of mine is working on a div-based design, and as far as I 
can see, has pretty much straight away run up against some common 
problems for CSS-P newbies.

You can see a kind of stripped-down version of it here:

  http://johnhorner.nu/wsg/

and essentially the problems are that the DIVs are fine as long as 
the content fits. So if I hit Apple-Plus (increase font size) twice, 
the font size is too big and two things happen, the upper DIV starts 
to slide behind the lower ones, and the lower ones start to overlap 
the footer. This is in FireFox by the way.

What would members recommend? Does this design, for instance, require 
relative, not absolute positioning?


Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 2110
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/


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RE: [WSG] Fluid-fixed design

[Mike Foskett]

Kay,

There are good examples at www.redmelon.net and a generator at 
http://www.inknoise.com/... 


hope it helps

Mike
 

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.webSemantics.co.uk [hosted  almost ready] 
 


-Original Message-
From: Kay Smoljak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 24 August 2004 06:07
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Fluid-fixed design


I know the subject doesn't make a lot of sense :)

I have the winning combination of a web site design (photoshop file only), a prima 
donna graphic designer and a difficult client.

The design was initially created to be fixed width, typical blog style centered and 
dropshadowed with curvy panels, but the client wanted it to be fluid (or at least 
expand to higher resolutions). Due to some swirly background work, the only place the 
design can safely expand is through the centre.

That means a background graphic hanging off the left hand side, another hanging off 
the right hand side, and another background image as the main panel background.

Does anyone know of a layout doing this that I can steal implementation ideas from? 
I'm trying to avoid using a table, although I may go that route, because I'd like to 
use absolute positioning to make the source order search engine friendly.

Thanks for any pointers...

-- 
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com/
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RE: [WSG] DOM setAttribute in IE?

[Mike Foskett]

IE does not like setAttribute onClick.
I had a similar problem recently. 
I solved it by using the correct method first (as yours) then adding a function to 
deal with IE after it.

function onclickIE(idAttr,handler,call){
if ((document.all)(document.getElementById)){idAttr[handler]=new 
Function(call)}
}


Hope that helps


mike 2k:)2
 
marqueeblink mike foskett /marquee/blink
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.webSemantics.co.uk
 

 


-Original Message-
From: Justin French [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 19 August 2004 07:22
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] DOM setAttribute in IE?


Here's a function:

function helpLinks()
{
if(!document.getElementsByTagName) return;
var anchors = document.getElementsByTagName(a);
for (var i=0; ianchors.length; i++)
{
var anchor = anchors[i];
if (anchor.getAttribute(href)  anchor.getAttribute(rel) ==  
help)
{
anchor.setAttribute( 
onclick,window.open(this.href,'popupwindow','width=400,height=400,scr 
ollbars,resizable'); return false;,0);
}
}
}

It works perfectly well in everything I can get my hands on except for  
IE, where it fails to set the onclick event to all A elements with a  
rel attribute of 'help'.

Changing anchor.setAttribute(...) to  
anchor.setAttribute('target','_blank',0); DOES work (the link opens in  
a new window), so it would appear that IE doesn't like setting onlick  
attributes this way.

Can anyone either:
- suggest an alternate way to achieve this, or
- suggest a good mailing list to seek further help on (like a DOM list)


---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au

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RE: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play

[Mike Foskett]

Interesting,

I posted a query (a Flash forum) about the Flash Satay method not always displaying on 
Opera.
Sometimes it required a page refresh in order to display.
I was told that it was a problem with my copy of the browser.
Which didn't ring true at the time either.

I learnt to live with the effect as they were only single-page fun sites.
http://www.2kool2.com/2kool2/
http://www.2kool2.com/senuik/

I'd be very interested in any solutions anyone comes up with.

mike 2k:)2

marqueeblink mike foskett /marquee/blink
http://www.webSemantics.co.uk [almost complete]
 


-Original Message-
From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 18 August 2004 08:57
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play


Hi

I have a feeling that the inconsistencies in valid xhtml markup for 
embedding (object) Flash were from general badness in the ActiveX used 
by Flash Player  (somebody mentioned a corrupt OCX file on the Flash 
Satay discussion at ALA) and Internet Explorer having it's own version 
of the object tag.
There are a few links in the archive of this list worth checking out.

The version i have at webqs.com works for all the browsers and players I 
could lay my hands on.

Cheers
James

David McKinnon wrote:
 Sorry Neerav,
 That works for me in IE6/Win and Safari 1.0.3, but not IE5.2/Mac, 
 Opera 7.5(Win and Mac), Firefox 0.9.3 (Win and Mac) or Camino 0.8.
 
 The A List Apart article and Ian Hix's solution both aim at solving 
 problems with the object element.
 However, I understand from Designing With Web Standards and the discussion
 of the A List Apart Flash Satay article
 (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/discuss/) that some browsers
 IE/Win 5, 5.5 and 6, Konquerer/Linux and Mozilla/Linux sometimes fail to
 correctly handle the object element.
 Apparently it works most of the time but sometimes people just get a blank
 space where the Flash should be.
 Hixie's solution seems to be the most elegant, although Mark Lynch casts
 some doubt on this here http://markl.f2o.org/experiments/flashvars/
 
 Any further developments?
 David
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Neerav
 Sent: Wednesday, 18 August 2004 10:46 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
 
 The following is valid XHTML transitional, and seems to work fine in 
 the browsers I've checked (IE6, Mozilla, Opera)
 
 object 
 codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swfl
 ash.ca
 b#version=6,0,0,0 
 
 type=application/x-shockwave-flash
 data=http://www.example.com/flash.swf;
 width=640 height=480
 param name=movie value=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; / 
 /object
 
 --
 Neerav Bhatt
 http://www.bhatt.id.au
 Web Development  IT consultancy
 Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27
 
 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts 
 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
 
 David McKinnon wrote:
 
Does anyone know if anyone has managed to produce a valid and reliable
way to embed Flash objects yet?
I'm noting Nick Gleitzman's reply to Seona Bellamy yesterday [RE: 
[WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?] suggesting 
Flash Satay at A List Apart.

My understanding is that the safest way is still to use Macromedia's
invalid default method:
http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/tn4150.html
This is taking into account Jeffrey Zeldman's comments in Designing 
With Web Standards about Drew McLellan's Flash Satay method 
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/
And noting Mark Lynch's comments on Flashvars using either the Satay 
meithod or Ian Hixie's
http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1081798064count=1

Anyone know any better?

David McKinnon
www.alucida.com
 
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org

RE: [WSG] ultimate noob question.... is table-less layout meaning literally?

[Mike Foskett]

What about http://www.sitepoint.com ?
That's as complicated a structure as any I've seen, and almost completely table-less.

mike foskett
http://www.webSemantics.co.uk/
 



-Original Message-
From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 16 August 2004 12:24
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] ultimate noob question is table-less layout meaning literally?


http://www.csszengarden.com/

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/complexspiral/demo.html

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/index.html

-- 
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development  IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts 
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
've got into the habit
 of checking the source on many webpages I come across, and i've yet to
 find one with complex design which is without using tables for layout.
 
 Duncan
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[WSG] RE: Web standards compliant text scroller and it's accessible but...

[Mike Foskett]

Peeps,

I wrote this text scroller upon request a few weeks ago:

http://www.webSemantics.co.uk/accessible_scroller.html

It's XHTML strict, standards compliant, accessible and manipulates the DOM via 
JavaScript.

I have a slight problem with IE v5.0. It doesn't recognise the no-wrap property. 
Consequently what should be on one line is on three. Not good.

Now I could insert nobr elements via the DOM but the idea leaves cold.

Any other suggestions?

mike foskett
http://www.webSemantics.co.uk  


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winmail.dat

RE: [WSG] Weird issue With IE6... Need Help

[Mike Foskett]

Here's a simple rule:

If it looks like a heading, table or list, then, most probably, it should be coded as 
such.
- Fosketts rule 2.

Hope that helps.


mike 2k:)2
 


-Original Message-
From: Dan Webb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 29 July 2004 15:34
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Weird issue With IE6... Need Help


I'd use a table for the main data table if I were you...it's tabular data.

Quoting Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 I think this has something to do with the floats.
 but in IE6.
 
 when i load this page, the text doesn't appear 
 http://img.neester.com/image_index
 
 it also has a weird bug in FIREFOX where the these little blocks come 
 in
 on the sides...
 
 what do you think would be the best solution?
 actually use tables?
 
 i think i might.
 
 any help on the topic would be greatly appreciated!
 thanks!
 
 *- chris stratford*
 


-- 
Dan Webb
Web Developer and Internet Consultant
www.danwebb.net
07957 234544
39 Roseberry Gardens, London, N8 8SH
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RE: [WSG] Underlining tabbed to links

[Mike Foskett]

Hi all,

This is how I achieve the effect but using a different method:

a   {color:#009; text-decoration:none; border-bottom:1px dotted 
#ccf; padding-bottom:1px}
a:link  {color:#009; border-bottom:1px solid #ccf}
a:visited   {color:#606; border-bottom:1px dotted #fcf}
a:active{color:#f00; border-bottom:1px dashed #f00}
a:focus {color:#f00; border-bottom:1px dashed #f00}
a:hover {color:#96f; border-bottom:1px solid #96f}
acronym {cursor:help; border-bottom:1px solid #090}

If you wish to see it in action:
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/accessibility.html

It's a different method to text-decoration with distinct advantages.
1. Does not use colour alone to convey meaning. Underlines are dotted, dashed 
and solid.
2. Highlighted focus.
3. Body text link clarity. Keeping underlines but improving the spacing 
between text and underline.
4. Distinctive acronyms.


Any comments?



mike 2k:)2
 



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RE: [WSG] Re: Does a CSS file load all graphics or only page relevant ones?

[Mike Foskett]

Thanks.

I thought it was the case until I received a report telling me my homepage was 115KB.
Another case of auto-generated reports getting it wrong.

Panic over.

mike 2k:)2
 


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[WSG] Re: Does a CSS file load all graphics or only page relevant ones?

[Mike Foskett]

Hi all,

Does anyone happen to know exactly when a graphic is loaded from a CSS description?

E.G. Assuming different files for: XHTML and CSS.

XHTML:
Page1.html only uses #bannerpage1
Page2.html only uses #bannerpage2

When Page1 is first loaded it loads the global CSS which contains:

#bannerpage1 {background:url(images/banner.gif) #fff top center}
#bannerpage2 {background:url(images/banner2.gif) #fff top center}

Does the browser (showing Page1.html) load both banners but only displays #bannerpage1?
Or
Does the browser only load the images required to style the current page?



Any help would be appreciated.


mike 2k:)2
 



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RE: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?

[Mike Foskett]

Gerhard,

You could try the method I've used previously.
The top link expands sub links.  Works with JavaScript off and is accessible.


!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN 
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en lang=en
head
  titleExpanding menus - Web Semantics/title
  meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 /
  script type=text/javascript
function initMenus() {
if (!document.getElementsByTagName) return
var aMenus = document.getElementsByTagName(li);
for (var i = 0; i  aMenus.length; i++) {
var mclass = aMenus[i].className
if (mclass.indexOf(expandable)  -1) {
var submenu = aMenus[i].childNodes
for (var j = 0; j  submenu.length; j++) {
if (submenu[j].tagName == A) {
submenu[j].onclick =function() {
var node = this.nextSibling
while (1) {
if (node != null) {
if 
(node.tagName == UL) {
var d 
= (node.style.display == none)

node.style.display = (d) ? block : none

this.className = (d) ? expanded : expandable
return 
false;
}
node = 
node.nextSibling;
}
else {
return false;
}
}
return false;
}
submenu[j].className = 
(mclass.indexOf(open)  -1) ? expanded : expandable
}
if (submenu[j].tagName == UL)
submenu[j].style.display = 
(mclass.indexOf(open)  -1) ? block : none
}
}
}
}
function addLoadEvent(func) {
if (!document.getElementById | !document.getElementsByTagName) return
var oldonload = window.onload
if (typeof window.onload != 'function') {
window.onload = func;
} else {
window.onload = function() {
oldonload()
func()
}
}
}
addLoadEvent(initMenus)
  /script
/head
body
div id=navigation
h2Site navigation/h2
ul
li class=expandable
a href=#Services/a
ul
lia href=#Free site check/a/li
lia href=#Comprehensive site check/a/li
lia href=#Template coding/a/li
lia href=#In-house training/a/li
lia href=#No-nonsense advice/a/li
/ul
/li
lia href=#Projects and Clients/a/li
li class=expandable
a href=#Tutorials/a
ul
lia href=#Accessibility/a/li
lia href=#CSS/a/li
lia href=#JavaScript/a/li
lia href=#Web standards/a/li
/ul
/li
/ul
/div !-- id=navigation --
/body
/html



I hope it helps.

mike 2k:)2
 


-Original Message-
From: Gerhard Schoder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 08 July 2004 20:58
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?


Hi Brian!
Thanks alot for your link, it's almost everything I need, except for 
that i would like a klick on a top nav item to toggle the visibility of 
the containing sub nav items... That would be --- perfekt =) Thanks 

RE: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?

[Mike Foskett]

Dan,

I'm gonna have to spend time digesting that article.
Thanks for reminding me why I like this forum.


mike 2k:)2
 




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RE: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?

[Mike Foskett]

Dan,

Sorry I meant it'll take time to absorb the JavaScript closures article.
I'll need to comprehend that before moving to your example.
The techniques used I found very strange. I sort of follow, but failed to comprehend.
If you don't mind there'll be some questions at the end of the week?

BTW the sample code came out as gibberish on a Mac ie5.2 OS9  OSX.
I didn't have time to look any deeper though it worked fine on Safari.

On an accessibility note:

Last week I tested the expanding menu (as previous email) with a style sheet set to 
500% font-size.
Someone once told me that lo-vision users have font-sizes set to extremes, and 500% 
was the max without horizontal scrolling.
When I clicked an expandable top level menu it appeared as though nothing happened. 
I.e. the extra links appeared beneath the page fold.
Which I found disorientating.  I believe screen readers may stumble too.  What marks 
the difference between expandable links and normal links to the screen reader. Though 
perhaps a dynamically added title tag may alleviate the problem.

Although totally based on feelings and hearsay, my conclusion was to reject all 
expanding menus until better informed.


What says the people out there?



mike 2k:)2
 



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RE: [WSG]headers

[Mike Foskett]

Thanks Mike, Drew, Lee,

I think you'll appreciate the result.
It contains most of your suggestions.
Still working on the content though, with a long way to go.
graphic design, copy writing, peer testing, user testing, etc.
  http://homepage.mac.com/backtoslack/websemantics/

once again thanks for clearing up these issues guys.


mike foskett


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winmail.dat

RE: [WSG]headers

[Mike Foskett]

Peeps,

I thought I knew what I was doing with headers, now I'm getting confused.
My XHTML docs are structured like this:

titlePage name - Site name/title

  h1Site name/h1  [not visible  2nd part of the title - 
Placed behind an image of the same]

  h1Content (Page name) heading/h1[visible  1st part of the title]
  [optional text]
  h2/h2   [all sub headings in the correct order]


  h1Navigation/h1 [not visible]
  [list of links]

  h2External links/h2 [not visible]
  h3link heading/h3
  [text  link]
  h3link heading/h3
  [text  link]
 

  h3footer links/h3   [not visible]
  [list of links]


Note: [not visible] means you cannot see it but neither visibility:hidden nor 
display:none are used.


I liked the idea that h1 marked the top of page, content, and nav.
It made sense when viewed and navigated at 500% font-size.
It also made sense with screen readers jumping from heading to heading.


Is this approach considered incorrect? 
Should there be only one h1?
Is starting the navigation at a h1 considered poor structure?
Should I rethink the heading structure from a multiple page, or site, view?


Please clarify

cheers


mike 2k:)2
 


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RE: [WSG]headers

[Mike Foskett]

Drew, Mike,

So, if I get this right then technically speaking:

titlePage name - Site name/title

  divSite name/div   [not visible  2nd part of the title - 
Placed behind an image of the same]

  h1Content (Page name) heading/h1   [visible  1st part of the title]

  h2/h2  [repeat as required keeping all sub headings 
in the correct order]
  h3/h3
  h2/h2
  h3/h3
  h4/h4
  h3/h3
  h2/h2
 
  div
spanNavigation/span  [not visible, span is of no use to 
no-vision, but okay for lo-vision, users]
[list of links]
  /div

div
  spanExternal links/span[not visible]
  h2link heading/h2  [this heading has to be a h2 because you 
cannot guarantee a h2 in the content]
[text  link]
  h2link heading/h2
[text  link]
/div

  div
spanFooter links/span[not visible]
[list of links]
  /div


Note: [not visible] means you cannot see it but neither visibility:hidden nor 
display:none are used.


Hmm.


I have observed vision-impaired users skipping through h? tags as the preferred 
method of navigating a page.
The tendency is not to use the access keys even though they happily know they are 
there.
This is due I believe to inconsistencies in the declarations, and availability, on 
pages world-wide.

My concern is now that by removing the h? tags from the navigation sections, I'm 
actually making the page a lot less accessible.

For the best compromise while keeping it all accessible, I'm now considering:

titlePage name - Site name/title

  divSite name/div   [not visible  2nd part of the title - 
Placed behind an image of the same]

  h1Content (Page name) heading/h1   [visible  1st part of the title]

  h2/h2  [repeat as required, keeping all sub headings 
in the correct order]
  h3/h3
  h2/h2
  h3/h3
  h4/h4
  h3/h3
  h2/h2
  
  h2Navigation/h2[not visible, h2 is good for both no-vision 
and lo-vision users]
[list of links]

  h3External links/h3[not visible]
  h4link heading/h4  
[text  link]
  h4link heading/h4
[text  link]
 
  h3Footer links/h3  [not visible]
[list of links]



Would that be in my best interest and a good balance?



mike 2k:)2


 



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[WSG] FW: What do you consider to be the minimum Accessibility level to cover legal requirements?

[Mike Foskett]

Hi all,

I'm about to rewrite the technical standards for the acceptance of external, and 
independent, web resources.
At present they are only guidelines and they suggest:
. Compliance to WAI priority one (plus a little). 
. W3C validated coding with allowable exceptions. E.g. Flash / Framesets.

These guidelines were set over 18 months ago.
Now they are due for review prior to the final part of the DDA coming into UK law.

It would be improper for me to dictate full WAI compliance if it is not a legal 
necessity.
Though it is a requirement to insist on meeting the legal minimum.

I was thinking as a minimum:
1. Alt tags for all:  Navigation images,  form image buttons and text in 
images. 
2. Colour must not be used as the sole method of highlighting information  
 3. No flickering or blinking in images or text. 
4. Data tables require row and column headers. (same as priority one) 
5. Each frame requires a title and must point to a valid (X)HTML document. 
 6. Ensure that content areas are available and navigable with JavaScript / Java 
applets / Flash switched off. 
7. Supply a text transcript to multimedia objects. 
8. Ensure sufficient colour contrast. 
9. Content available and navigable via keyboard. 
10. Implicit form label associations (title before input).
Along with recommendations to fully comply with the WAI priority one and W3C 
validation.


What do you think? Too much or too little?




cheers.


mike 2k:)2

 
 Mike Foskett 
 Web Standards  Accessibility Officer
 Multimedia Publishing and Production 
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (BECTa) 
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ 
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342
 Fax: 02476 411410 
 www.becta.org.uk
 


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RE: [WSG] FW: What do you consider to be the minimum Accessibility level to cover legal requirements?

[Mike Foskett]

Thanks for the response Andy.
Great quiz by the way. Made me think and laugh.

You are suggesting the guidelines as they stand now with cases of must replacing 
should.
The problem is they're set too high.
If applied strictly then even the DRC's website would fail.

Here's an extended scenario:

The external resource could be a school teachers notes, developed for use in his own 
classes.
He thinks they are okay, as they certainly help him do the job.
In his benevolence he wishes to share this resource with teachers nation-wide.

On said resource: 
. I can insist legalities are met.
. I can ask for / suggest full compliance.
. I can also assume the owner has little or no technical knowledge.

The intention is to publish the resource, as long as it is legal, with guidance on 
technical improvements.

Maybe the real question is:
What guidelines if broken, or level of brokenness, would constitute a breach in 
the UK DDA laws?

For example
WAI Statement-ish: All images must have alt tags.

Under UK law this would not be a breach if a user can access and use the service 
provided.
Therefore this would be better stated as:
Alt tags are required for:  Navigational images,  form image buttons, text in 
images, and contextually important images.
This would fail WAI but pass UK law.

After all the teacher should be encouraged to share resources with only the minimum of 
red tape.


Maybe I should just simplify the whole thing?

A resource may be failed for:
1. Failure to attain WAI priority one
2. Failure to publish coding to a W3C formal grammar.
A resource will be failed for:
1. Failure to comply to UK law, 

And simply leave it to the discretion of the reviewer.
Though I was hoping to achieve a checklist for a minimum (UK DDA law) pass level.



mike 2k:)2
 



Original message

Hi all,

I'm about to rewrite the technical standards for the acceptance of external, and 
independent, web resources. At present they are only guidelines and they suggest:
. Compliance to WAI priority one (plus a little). 
. W3C validated coding with allowable exceptions. E.g. Flash / Framesets.

These guidelines were set over 18 months ago.
Now they are due for review prior to the final part of the DDA coming into UK law.

It would be improper for me to dictate full WAI compliance if it is not a legal 
necessity. Though it is a requirement to insist on meeting the legal minimum.

I was thinking as a minimum:
1. Alt tags for all:  Navigation images,  form image buttons and text in 
images. 
2. Colour must not be used as the sole method of highlighting information  
 3. No flickering or blinking in images or text. 
4. Data tables require row and column headers. (same as priority one) 
5. Each frame requires a title and must point to a valid (X)HTML document. 
 6. Ensure that content areas are available and navigable with JavaScript / Java 
applets / Flash switched off. 
7. Supply a text transcript to multimedia objects. 
8. Ensure sufficient colour contrast. 
9. Content available and navigable via keyboard. 
10. Implicit form label associations (title before input). Along with 
recommendations to fully comply with the WAI priority one and W3C validation.


What do you think? Too much or too little?




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[WSG] What do you consider to be the minimum Accessibility level to cover legal requirements?

[Mike Foskett]

Title: Message



Hi 
all,

I'm about to rewrite 
the technical standardsfor theacceptance of external, and 
independent,web resources.
At present they are 
only guidelines and they suggest:

  Compliance to WAI 
  priority one (plus a little).
  W3C validated 
  coding with allowable exceptions. E.g. Flash.
The guidelines were 
setover 18 months ago.
Now they are due for 
review prior to the final part of the DDA coming into UK 
law.

It would be improper 
forme todictate full WAI compliance if it is not a legal 
necessity.
Though 
itisa requirementto insist on meeting the legal 
minimum.

I was thinking (as a 
minimum):

  Alt 
  tagsforall: Navigationimages, form image buttons 
  and text in images.
  Colour 
  must notbe 
  used as the sole method of 
  highlightinginformation
  No flickering or blinking 
  inimages or text.
  Data tables require 
  row and column headers. (same as priority one)
  Each frame requires 
  a titleand mustpoint to a valid (X)HTML 
  document.
  Ensure that content 
  areas are available and navigablewith _javascript_ / Java applets / Flash 
  switched off.
  Supply a text 
  transcriptto any multimedia objects.
  Ensure sufficient 
  colour contrast.
  Content   availableand navigable via keyboard.
  Implicit form label 
  associations (title before input).
Along with 
recommendations to fullycomply with the WAI priority one and W3C 
validation.


What do you think? 
Too much or too little?



cheers.


mike 
2k:)2
Mike 
Foskett Web Support Officer - Programming Multimedia Publishing 
and Production British Educational Communications and Technology 
Agency (BECTa) Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 
7JJ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 02476 
416994 Ext3342Fax: 02476 411410 www.becta.org.uk 



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RE: [WSG] hand coding versus code generators

[Mike Foskett]

Peeps,

I learnt HTML with Dreamweaver v2 but moved up to a text editor (Textpad).
This only changed recently when I bought a Powerbook.
I needed an interface that was basically the same on Mac and PC.
Sadly, that meant reverting to Dreamweaver 2004 MX code view.

Six months now and I'm still only getting used to it.

mike 2k:)2
 


-Original Message-
From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 05 July 2004 12:13
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] hand coding versus code generators


Simon

Hand coding and Dreamweaver dont need to be thought of as separate, I 
hand code, sometimes in a fancy text editor, sometimes in Dreamweaver MX 
2004's Code/Split View depending on the type of work.

Previously I wouldnt have bothered with Dreamweaver but as of this 
latest version it can be set to generate pure XHTML so im happy with it

-- 
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development  IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27

http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav

simon @ london web mill wrote:
 Im a new boy to the discussion group. Pointed in this direction by
 Jeffery Zeldman's 'Designing with Web Standards'. I must say Web 
 Standards has been a 'breathe of fresh air' for me. Its the way forward,  for sure. 
 What Im not so sure about is using a code generator eg. 
 Dreamweaver. Ive always hand coded my HTML, javascript, ASP, SQL etc 
 using a text editor (past 4 years). What do people think about hand 
 coding versus code generators? What percentage of developers totally 
 hand code, use both, use only code generators? regards Simon
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RE: [WSG] Quick Accessibility Quiz

[Mike Foskett]

That was good, 
well while the server held out anyway

mike 2k:)2
 


-Original Message-
From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01 July 2004 09:52
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Quick Accessibility Quiz


I've just posted up a quick accessibility quiz on my site.

http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2004/07/ 
quick_accessibility_quiz_now_with_prizes/

The first 3 people with the correct answers and reasoning (as judged by  
me) will win a free GMail account (assuming I can remember my  
password).

Enjoy


Andy Budd

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RE: [WSG] Safety experts advise switching browsers

[Mike Foskett]

Hi,

These days I code for Mozilla.
Then iron out the IE incompatibilities.

mike 2k:)2
 


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RE: [WSG] IE4 /Win

[Mike Foskett]

Hanni,

IE4 isn't a complete horror story though if you don't support Netscape v4.7 why 
support I.E.?
Personally I supply style sheets to I.E. but not to Netscape 4.7 it's too buggy.
Though I would find it acceptable to not give I.E. a style sheet.

mike 2k:)2
 


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RE: [WSG] Interesting reading

[Mike Foskett]

There is a fair point in there.

We need people to bend, stretch and break standards in order to push out the 
boundaries of the technologies we use.

Who would be completely happy with the Standards set in 1992?
Didn't the late nineties Browser wars come up with non-standard stuff that's now 
included in the standard.

I'm not saying ignore standards, just that sometimes breaking them serves a purpose 
too.


mike 2k:)2
 


-Original Message-
From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 14 June 2004 11:34
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Interesting reading


How cute.

What good are standards when browsers change so fast by adding new features every 
month? Or, the needs and demands of the users change with the latest killer app?

It appears that your friend has been living in a cave since the browser wars... The 
rest is the usual well, these big sites are not valid, so why bother drivel.

Kept me entertained for all of 17 seconds.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

 -Original Message-
 From: Marc Greenstock [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 14 June 2004 11:01
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] Interesting reading
 
 
 A friend of mine sent me this link; 
 http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx
 
 He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current
 standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition.
 
 Happy reading :)
 
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RE: [WSG] HTML, CSS and Mobiles

[Mike Foskett]

Patrick,

I have an interest in this too.
I coded a site (valid XHTML v1.0 strict) at the weekend that works in IE from v3+ and 
Netscape from v2+.
It should have been fine on a PDA but it crashed the browser (Internet Explorer).
And that's before I add any J/S functionality.

Today I've requisitioned a Compaq iPAQ with testing in mind.
Any guidance would be appreciated.

I shall be interested in the remarks made here.


mike 2k:)2


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RE: [WSG] scrolling area

[Mike Foskett]

Erm,

Not very accessible.  No keyboard access I could figure out.

Would it not be better to use inline frames and apply IE only CSS to the scrollbars?



mike 2k:)2
 


-Original Message-
From: Tim Lucas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 14 June 2004 16:24
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] scrolling area


Justin French spoke the following wise words on 14/06/2004 11:29 PM EST:
 So, I'd like to experiment with a javascript/css based solution which
 (preferably) is 100% accessible, based on a scroll box with simple up 
 and down arrows, etc.

Travis Beckham's divscroller works a treat: 
http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller2
http://www.squidfingers.com/code/dhtml/?id=divscroller

-- tim lucas

http://www.toolmantim.com

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RE: [WSG] www.seoed.com - Please review

[Mike Foskett]

Rarvan,

Two quick points:

1. Please use % or ems for stating font-size.
2. Please separate adjacent links with a printable character.  Or recode them as a 
list.

Nice site keep it up.

mike 2k:)2
 


-Original Message-
From: Razvan Pop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 08 June 2003 16:48
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] www.seoed.com - Please review


Hello.

http://www.seoed.com/

Please take a look at my site and tell me what you think. :)

I would like some more opinions regarding usability and accessibility.

I look forward for your feedback. Site in 90% finished.
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RE: [WSG] NS6 indiscrepancies

[Mike Foskett]

Martin,

Be careful with DocTypes.

NS6 adds white-space after objects.
Anymore than that I'd need an example url.


mike 2k:)2
 


-Original Message-
From: Martin Chapman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 07 June 2004 16:45
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] NS6 indiscrepancies


Hi All

Anyone got any decent pointers for Netscape 6 CSS problems? I'm 
finalising a site works great in IE6, 5.5, 5, NS7, Safari, Mozilla etc. 
etc. However, NS6 is simply a mess.

Have scoured the web but always draw a blank.




Kind regards
Martin Chapman Fromm

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Web development, identity and design.

co-ord.com Limited
9 Tynwald Road
West Kirby
Merseyside
CH48 4DA

Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.co-ord.com

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