Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
At 10:13 AM 08-12-2002 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] you wrote: Jack Campin wrote - OK, I'm with you and it's growing on me. It would be necessary for something I saw the other day which would need to be written [d6z2]2[B2G2][B2G2] although there would still need to be intelligence within the programme to recognise that the two Bs were not melody notes. Do you mean the B's are tied or printed as one note? It's a bit difficult to explain without diagrams and waving your arms around. [d6z2]2[B2G2][B2G2] represents one bar of 3/4 time. The d6 is a dotted minim over a crotchet rest. The [B2G2]s are two separate (untied) crotchet length chords. A classic Dum Ching Ching rhythm with the Dum sustained for the whole bar. Your absorptive-tie idea strikes me as a less than intuitive way of representing this. [d6z2][B2G2][B2G2] would work for shortest note. [z2d6][B2G2][B2G2] would work for first listed note and shortest note. None of them make sense for first listed note = melody note. How would [d6]2[z2B2G2][z2B2G2] work for first listed note = melody note? Actually, this might be an appropriate place for a non-printing rest [d6]2 % Melody is a D above middle-C, played for 6 ticks. Next note begins after 2 ticks [y2B2G2] % Melody in this chord is non-existant (non-printing rest), has a % B below middle C and a G below middle C, and begins on tick 3, lasts 2 ticks [y2B2G2] % Same as above, but beginning on tick 5. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
How is that supposed to look and sound? Muse makes it look and sound funny. There is a slur mark on every note, caused by those () did you mean []? And they are funny slurs because they just perch on one note rather than combining several (because the other thing in the slur is invisible). It plays sounding (roughly) like A2 B2 z c2 d2 z which would mean that I had x and y back to front (neither are visible but I'm treating y as a real rest and x just for spacing). Should I be fixing this?? Laurie - Original Message - From: Jack Campin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation something else that's common in piano and guitar music: a hanging tie to the right of a note that means Let this note sound for an unspecified time. There's no way that I know to say this in abc at present. It's yet another way that keyboard and guitar music is the worst case for music notation. Using BarFly's invisible rests you can do this: X:1 T:test M:none K:C (A2x) (B2y) (c2x) (d2y)|| x is played as a rest but not printed, y is purely there to occupy some horizontal space in the staff notation (i.e. it's really a hack to get round problems occasionally created by BarFly's note spacing algorithms, but probably all staff-notation generators will need such a hack at times, albeit no two in the same places). Which you'd want depends on the context. - Jack Campin * 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland tel 0131 660 4760 * fax 0870 055 4975 * http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ food intolerance data recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Laurie Griffiths wrote: Shortest determines length works because you can always add a rest to delay things, but we don't have negative rests to make things happen sooner. e.g. [G4B]zcd (melody is Bzcd) Or even an invisible rest [G4B]xcd in some cases. Melody note first pretty much demands shortest determines length (or else some new mechanism such as numbers after the close bracket) because the melody note may be longer than the accompaniment. Very good point. Henrik Norbeck, Stockholm, Sweden [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/ My home page http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/abcmus/ AbcMus player program http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/abc.htm 1600 ABC tunes http://surf.to/blackthorn Irish trad music band http://www.rfod.se/folklink/ Links to Swedish music To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Henrik Norbeck writes: | Laurie Griffiths wrote: | Melody note first pretty much demands shortest determines length (or | else some new mechanism such as numbers after the close bracket) because the | melody note may be longer than the accompaniment. | | Very good point. Indeed. It sounds like the most useful rules would be: 1. The first note in a chord is to be considered the melody note by programs that need a melody note. The rest of the notes may be given in any order without affecting the meaning. 2. A chord may have a length after the closing ']'. This is used to determine when the next note or chord starts, and may be different from any or all of the chord's notes. 3. If there is no such chord length, the chord's length is the length of the shortest note. Longer notes will overlap with whatever comes next. This would mean that I'd need to hunt down and modify the cases where I've taken advantage of abc2ps's use of the first note's length as the chord's length. I don't mind doing this, since the above rules do make a lot of sense. But I'd rather see a consensus on this first, so I don't have to redo them all again later. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Laurie Griffiths wrote: Can someone explain why first note determines length is better than shortest determines length. A counter example that doesn;t work the other way would be nice, especially if it were not contrived. Hear, hear! Can anyone find us that example? So two of the most used* abc programs, Muse and AbcMus, both use the shortest determines length method, which seems to work well. I've had no complaints so far. Have you, Laurie? Do we really have to change it? * This is my assumption, since both are for Windows, and both are user friendly. Of course Abc2win would be another of the most used programs. Is it legal abc to have a rest in a chord? Hm, why not? AbcMus handles them. (Bach's prelude no.1 comes to mind) The following works fine in AbcMus (I know I should rewrite it using multiple voices, but they weren't around yet in abc when I transcribed this). Anyway, it clearly shows that rests should be allowed in chords. X:1 T:Praeludium I C:J.S. Bach B:Das Wohltemperierte Clavier Z:Abc by Henrik Norbeck M:C L:1/16 Q:1/4=80 K:C %%midi program 0 (piano) [C8z] [E7z] Gc eGce [C8z] [E7z] Gc eGce| [C8z] [D7z] Ad fAdf [C8z] [D7z] Ad fAdf| [B,8z] [D7z] Gd fGdf [B,8z] [D7z] Gd fGdf| [C8z] [E7z] Gc eGce [C8z] [E7z] Gc eGce| [C8z] [E7z] Ae aAea [C8z] [E7z] Ae aAea| [C8z] [D7z] Ad ^fAd^f [C8z] [D7z] Ad ^fAd^f| [B,8z] [D7z] Gd gGdg [B,8z] [D7z] Gd gGdg| [B,8z] [C7z] EG cEGc [B,8z] [C7z] EG cEGc| [A,8z] [C7z] EG cEGc [A,8z] [C7z] EG cEGc| [D,8z] [A,7z] D^F cD^Fc [D,8z] [A,7z] D^F cD^Fc| [G,8z] [B,7z] DG BDGB [G,8z] [B,7z] DG BDGB| [G,8z] [_B,7z] EG _dEG_d [G,8z] [_B,7z] EG _dEG_d| [F,8z] [A,7z] DA dDAd [F,8z] [A,7z] DA dDAd| [F,8z] [_A,7z] DF BDFB [F,8z] [_A,7z] DF BDFB| [E,8z] [G,7z] CG cCGc [E,8z] [G,7z] CG cCGc| [E,8z] [F,7z] A,C FA,CF [E,8z] [F,7z] A,C FA,CF| [D,8z] [F,7z] A,C FA,CF [D,8z] [F,7z] A,C FA,CF| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,G [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,G| [C,8z] [E,7z] G,C EG,CE [C,8z] [E,7z] G,C EG,CE| [C,8z] [G,7z] _B,C E_B,CE [C,8z] [G,7z] _B,C E_B,CE| [F,,8z] [F,7z] A,C EA,CE [F,,8z] [F,7z] A,C EA,CE| [^F,,8z] [C,7z] A,C _EA,C_E [^F,,8z] [C,7z] A,C _EA,C_E| [_A,,8z] [F,7z] B,C DB,CD [_A,,8z] [F,7z] B,C DB,CD| [G,,8z] [F,7z] G,B, DG,B,D [G,,8z] [F,7z] G,B, DG,B,D| [G,,8z] [E,7z] G,C EG,CE [G,,8z] [E,7z] G,C EG,CE| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,C FG,CF [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,C FG,CF| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,F [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,F| [G,,8z] [_E,7z] A,C ^FA,C^F [G,,8z] [_E,7z] A,C ^FA,C^F| [G,,8z] [E,7z] G,C GG,CG [G,,8z] [E,7z] G,C GG,CG| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,C FG,CF [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,C FG,CF| [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,F [G,,8z] [D,7z] G,B, FG,B,F| [C,,8z] [C,7z] G,_B, EG,_B,E [C,,8z] [C,7z] G,_B, EG,_B,E| [C,,16z] [C,15z] F,A, CFCA, CA,F,A, F,D,F,D,| [C,,16z] [B,,15z] GB dfdB dBGB DFED| [C,,16C,16E16G16c16]|] Henrik Norbeck, Stockholm, Sweden [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/ My home page http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/abcmus/ AbcMus player program http://home.swipnet.se/hnorbeck/abc.htm 1600 ABC tunes http://surf.to/blackthorn Irish trad music band http://www.rfod.se/folklink/ Links to Swedish music To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Well, I can think of a simple example of how one might use this: [A4G2E2]2[F2D2] This would have a 4-count melody note above the [G2E2][F2D2] chord change. With L:1/8, the first chord could be drawn on a single stem, with an open oval for the A4 note and filled ovals for the G2 and E2 notes. This sort of notation isn't at all unusual in keyboard music. The abc seems quite readable to me. Using my absorptive-tie proposal: [A2--G2E2] [A2F2D2] Surely that's more readable? OK, I'm with you and it's growing on me. It would be necessary for something I saw the other day which would need to be written [d6z2]2[B2G2][B2G2] although there would still need to be intelligence within the programme to recognise that the two Bs were not melody notes. Do you mean the B's are tied or printed as one note? If the latter, using the absorptive tie notation: [d2-] [d2--B2--G2] [d2B2G2] the d is a crotchet tied to a minim, the B is a minim. Or did I get the semantics wrong? I'd expect [d6z2]2 to mean the same as [d12z4] (whatever *that* meant) - there are obvious reasons for extending chord notation to allow for postfixed length factors (i.e. just about everybody assumes they *are* allowed when first using the notation) so no proposed extension ought to preclude that. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
There is a lot of abc that would give strange results from the shortest-note rule. Recently someone pointed out that some of my files have notation like [A3G] with no length for the second note. There's a reason for this. It doesn't matter what the reason is, there can't be so many files like that that it's worth distorting the whole design of ABC to fit them. The solution for problems like that is to write a conversion utility, fix any legacy files with it and then move on. === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Jack writes: | There is a lot of abc that would give strange results from the | shortest-note rule. Recently someone pointed out that some of my | files have notation like [A3G] with no length for the second note. | There's a reason for this. | | It doesn't matter what the reason is, there can't be so many files | like that that it's worth distorting the whole design of ABC to fit | them. | | The solution for problems like that is to write a conversion utility, | fix any legacy files with it and then move on. You're right, of course. However, if I were to spend time time writing such a conversion program right now, it would almost certainly be wrong. The current discussion has all I need to convince me of that. It's obvious that I (and probably lots of other abc users and implementers) don't clearly understand what the rules are here. Or, more likely, what the (currently rather ambiguous rules) will be when people finally iron out an agreement. I can probably hack together a little perl program that will do the job, and it will probably only take me 10 or 20 minutes. But I don't really want to do this a dozen times; I'd rather do it once. It'll probably be a few years before the abc community decides what the output should look like and published a clear, unambiguous standard doc that I can code to. In particular, since among other things I've been working with a few player programs, I've generally typed chords with the assumption that the first note was whatever I thought was the melody note. This works (for some value of works) with programs that I have now. But it's becoming obvious that others think the note order should mean something else. Since I don't quite follow all the arguments, I don't think I should be prematurely writing any code that will be based on what is probably a misunderstanding. So for now, I might as well not waste my time. I'll just wait until I understand what the converter's output really should be. In the meantime, I'll fix things up by hand when I stumble across them, and work on the principle that If it works with the tools at hand, that's good enough for now. Back to you ... ;-) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Muse as released does *not* use the shortest note wins rule. In fact it's pretty restrictive which can make it a pain for keyboard users. At the moment I'm doing a major rewrite (called Muse2) which is aimed at 1. Choral singers (better control over playback - done) 2. Keyboard players (live Midi in and all this polyphony stuff) 3. Singer songwriters (better lyrics stuff) plus a host of smaller things. In fixing the restrictions on within-staff, within-voice polyphony - and in particular in trying to type in various keyboard parts (The Messiah being the biggest) I found that the rule that seemed to work was shortest note wins. So that is the rule used within the body of Muse2. I chose it because it seemed to work. The worst that can happen is that you have to pad out one of the unnamed voices with a rest. i.e. [D4G]zFE D4. I can tolerate a different rule for ABC input and output from that within the body of Muse2. Output is easy I could just sort the chords to be shortest-first. Input is a little trickier, I'd have to invent that z. But I'm not particularly convinced that it's a good idea. I do have some sympathy with the first note is the melody idea - and we can't have both. I had a few complaints (actually very few) about the severe restriction in Muse (Muse-1 that is). It insisted that all notes within a chord be the same length and required that you either essentially ignored when the notes ended (as apparently Bach did because his prelude No.1 is written out as all quavers but he used to hold all the notes down when he played it) or else write it all out with ties (which can look pretty bad on the page). Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Laurie wrote: | ... In fixing the restrictions on within-staff, | within-voice polyphony - and in particular in trying to type in various | keyboard parts (The Messiah being the biggest) I found that the rule that | seemed to work was shortest note wins. So that is the rule used within | the body of Muse2. I chose it because it seemed to work. The worst that | can happen is that you have to pad out one of the unnamed voices with a | rest. i.e. [D4G]zFE D4. Hmmm ... It seems to me that the melody you'd hear here would be GzFE D4. This would mean that [GD4]zFE D4 would be a good way to write this for a player that treated the first note as the melody. This would also work with the first note and shortest note length rules. I've written out a fair amount of fiddle music that would be easy if I could use this approach. But since abc's current rules really don't say what happens in such cases, I've been a bit careful about such things. Most often, I just ignore this sort of drone note, and excuse the omission on the grounds that someone who knows the style will know to play it anyway. | I can tolerate a different rule for ABC input and output from that within | the body of Muse2. Output is easy I could just sort the chords to be | shortest-first. Input is a little trickier, I'd have to invent that z. Perhaps a good approach would be to legitimize the idea of putting a length after a chord, but if it it omitted, it defaults to either the first or the shortest length. Currently, abc2ps uses the first note's length, but this shouldn't be terribly difficult to change. | But I'm not particularly convinced that it's a good idea. I do have some | sympathy with the first note is the melody idea - and we can't have both. This idea is in use already, and it's musically valuable to know what the melody note is. So if it's not the first note in a chord, we'll want a way to say which it is. The current players that use the first note is melody rule probably all do this because it's easy to implement. There's a good chance that, if some other schemes were used, implementers would casually ignore it, and justify this on the grounds that you can't demand that they implement every obscure feature in the first release. Writing an abc player is a sufficiently complex task that you'd expect them to take a lot of short cuts initially. So we'll probably always have some abc software that until I have time to fix it ignores all but the first note of chords. | I had a few complaints (actually very few) about the severe restriction in | Muse (Muse-1 that is). It insisted that all notes within a chord be the | same length and required that you either essentially ignored when the notes | ended (as apparently Bach did because his prelude No.1 is written out as all | quavers but he used to hold all the notes down when he played it) or else | write it all out with ties (which can look pretty bad on the page). This can also be handled by something else that's common in piano and guitar music: a hanging tie to the right of a note that means Let this note sound for an unspecified time. There's no way that I know to say this in abc at present. It's yet another way that keyboard and guitar music is the worst case for music notation. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : Starling wrote - : is about. Look at the Subject line. The topic is abc bracketed chord : notation. The melody note in a chord is the one that a monphonic : player plays. There's nothing deeper than that. Alright, I just wanted to get that clear. It does introduce a conflict if the melody note and the duration note are the first note in the chord. Making a long slow melody over percussive harmony, as in the style of some of Bach's choral music, would be impossible since the first note would have to be both the shortest note, to identify it as the chord duration marker, and the longest note, to identify it as the melody. I think the overall length of the chord would intuitively be the length of its shortest note. Although that requires an algorithm to determine the note of shortest duration, it is more accurate and conforms with written musical notation. The first note can remain the melody note and if someone wants to have shorter harmonies than melodies, they just add the shorter notes below. If someone wants to have longer harmony over melodic embellishment, they just add the longer notes below. I still say most of this trouble could be solved by implementing two voices on one staff. (In MIDI, it doesn't matter usually. ;) ) But I also maintain that the shortest note in a chord should determine the space it takes up. [A2] may be a half note, but once you say [A2G/4] it becomes a 16th note in terms of where the next note is started. [G/4A2] would be the same except G/2 is the melody note. I can also see as a possibility the [...]n notation, where the number 'n' specifies the default note length in the chord, and the space the chord takes up before the next note starts. [A4ce]2 could be a half note, where A is overridden to be displayed as a whole note but c and e are displayed as half notes and the entire chord is considered a half note. Similarly, to preserve melody note flexibility, [ceA4]2 [cA4e]2 and [ecA4]2 would all represent the same thing. Happy Birthday One way: (which really should be done in two voices, two staves. c.c) g/2g/2 | [ac3e3g3]gc' | [b2B2d2g2] g/2g/2 | [aB3d3g3]gd' | [c'2c2e2g2] The second way: g/2g/2 | [ac3e3g3]1gc' | [bBdg]2 g/2g/2 | [aB3d3g3]1gd' | [c'ceg]2 The multivoiced way I actually tested on abcm2ps and abcmidi: %%staves [1 2] V:1 clef=treble V:2 clef=bass [V:1]G/2G/2|AGc |B2 G/2G/2| AGd|c [V:2]z |[c3e3g3]|[B3d3g3] |[B3d3g3]|[c3e3g3] Would any of that work? Starling To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
I really think we're wasting a lot of time on this. The only use for it is to notate an odd chord or brief passage of double-stopping in a piece which is otherwise monophonic. Anything more complex than this should always be notated using multivoice abc, which lets you define absolutely any time relationship you want between the notes and chords (different voices can even have different time signatures if necessary). Please let's just settle on one simple rule which involves the minimum change to existing practice and discuss something more profitable. I still favour the first-listed note rule (though it's not what my own program currently does). The 'add a length after the chord' proposal seems unnecessarily complicated, and is also ambiguous - by analogy with existing abc rules, adding '2' after the chord should make its length two default notes, but reading Toni Schilling's post it seems that it means to the chord length is to be double that of the first note (or was that of the shortest note?). Taking the shortest note as the length of the chord seems a little inflexible. If there's a problem differentiating between the melody note and the note which determines the length of the chord, or if you need a chord length which isn't actually represented among the selection of notes in the chord then you're definitely dealing with music which is too complex to represent this way, and you ought to be using multivoice, even if some of your voices are going to end up with lots of rests in them. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Bryan wrote I know you've been away Laurie but this has been discussed at some length for over a week now. A variety of people have given their reasons and examples. Perhaps if you would care to read the whole thread you could come up with specific reasons why you disagree and why you think shortest determines length is better. I did read the whole thread. I saw suggestions for 1. highest note prevails - but this is broken and was abandoned. 2. first note prevails with Jack Campin immediately saying but the semantics I'd need in every instance where I've wanted it would be that the *shortest* note counts. 3. shortest prevails The Rapunsel example from Eric Forgeot seemed to require this 4. None of these (Phil: Using unequal notes in chords just leads to too many ambiguities). A reply from Bryan saying Noteworthy Composer does it... but not saying what rule Noteworthy uses. Care to tell us? What rule does Noteworthy Composer use to determine when the next note starts after a mixed chord? John Chambers voted for first-note prevails Henrik voted for shortest prevails and gave an example of a fiddle tune (Målargubbens brudpolska) which requires shortest prevails. Toni Schilling suggested a length on the end [c4e]2 which seems to have caused confusion as some people thought that ought to mean c8e2. Bryan said 'the default behaviour without a following number would need to be the first-listed note but did not explain his reasoning - seems to me that shortest prevails works best. AbcMus implements shortest prevails Jack Campin floated absorptive ties. Bryan said I think it needs to be recognised that the [...] construct isn't going to cover all possibilities. Anything more complex will need separate voices, possibly combined on one staff. but did not produce any counter example to demonstrate the point. John Chambers said There is a lot of abc that would give strange results from the shortest-note rule.. and at that point I got back from Sidmouth and joined in. There have been two examples given (Rapunsel and Målargubbens brudpolska) both of which were shortest prevails. The most powerful argument for first prevails is John's there's a lot of ABC that needs it. Some idea of just how much would help. It seems to me that 99% or ABC falls into the two categories of no written-out chords at all or all notes in a chord are the same length. The printed piano music that I have seen seems to reply on shortest prevails (it often also uses beams and other layout clues to connect up notes into voices but when these fail it falls back on shortest wins). To do something different in ABC is liable to cause confusion. Although it is true that ABC is a language in its own right, it's liable to cause confusion when it is needlessly different from staff notation. I'm still in favour of shortest. Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : Starling wrote - : : I'm afraid that you have come in part way through this discussion. The : proposal is that each individual note should have its specified duration : which left the question open as to what defined the overall length of the : chord, i.e. time before the start of the next note or chord. Thank you. : duration of 4 while the duration of the first chord is 2 and the F in the : second chord is not a melody note. What I meant by packing two bits of : information into one bit of data was that first listed note = melody note : and first listed note = chord length are two different and possibly : conflicting bits of information. : : Er.. did that make sense? Almost. I had one question. What is a melody note? I have always known melodies as defined by context, and subject to much interpretation, rather than being defined by a specific type of notation. Two different people can call a section of music melody or accompaniment, and both may have valid opinions. I'm curious, what in your implementation requires certain notes to be selected as melody? Or am I totally misinterpreting the use of the phrase melody note? Starling To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Laurie wrote: I've been transcribing choruses of The Messiah. The voices are of course monophonic, but piano accompaniments have all sorts of nasties. I have found that shortest note determines when next note starts works well. You can always add a rest or two if that's not what you wanted. If you're doing something that complicated you have to be using multiple voices anyway. I find that some piano music needs as many as six voices to represent the two hands unambiguously. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Starling wrote: Almost. I had one question. What is a melody note? I have always known melodies as defined by context, and subject to much interpretation, rather than being defined by a specific type of notation. Two different people can call a section of music melody or accompaniment, and both may have valid opinions. I'm curious, what in your implementation requires certain notes to be selected as melody? Or am I totally misinterpreting the use of the phrase melody note? It's an interesting question. The melody note is the note which you (or your computer) would play if the piece were to be arranged for a monophonic instrument, and indeed it is a matter of opinion which is appropriate. Since the computer is not going to be able to make that choice, Bryan's suggestion was that it should be written into the abc using the note order within the chord. I wonder though if we aren't beginning to split some unnecessary hairs here. Are there really any circumstances where the overall length of the chord is different from the length of the melody note? Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Laurie: I've been transcribing choruses of The Messiah. Phil: If you're doing something that complicated you have to be using multiple voices anyway...to represent the two hands unambiguously. Well Muse has a serious problem in using multiple voices for a piano part. (I would guess Bryan's Noteworthy to ABC converter would have the same problem). The problem is how do you decide what counts as a voice? This is from near the end of His Yoke is easy and his Burthen is light. I've simplified it a tiny bit - it's really in 4/4 and the [c4 e4] tie over into the next bar. X:0 T:Example L:1/8 M:None K:Bflat%(no mode given)% % shortest note in chord dictates start of next [F2 B2 d/]e/f [_A2 B2 f4] [G3 B2] [c4 e4] FE There is no way that Muse could reasonably figure out what is a voice. There is actually a bit of the soprano line, slightly distorted, the contralto line running down through it a few odd notes from the orchestra and a couple of notes an octave above the tenors, but who cares? The line is intended to give enough of a sketch of what's going on for a chorus to practice against before they start shelling out their hard-earned on an expensive orchestra. Also, by the way, I have little interest in the fact that the average pianist has just under two hands or which notes are to be played with which, though others might. Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Laurie wrote: Well Muse has a serious problem in using multiple voices for a piano part. (I would guess Bryan's Noteworthy to ABC converter would have the same problem). The problem is how do you decide what counts as a voice? This is from near the end of His Yoke is easy and his Burthen is light. I've simplified it a tiny bit - it's really in 4/4 and the [c4 e4] tie over into the next bar. X:0 T:Example L:1/8 M:None K:Bflat%(no mode given)% % shortest note in chord dictates start of next [F2 B2 d/]e/f [_A2 B2 f4] [G3 B2] [c4 e4] FE There is no way that Muse could reasonably figure out what is a voice. There is actually a bit of the soprano line, slightly distorted, the contralto line running down through it a few odd notes from the orchestra and a couple of notes an octave above the tenors, but who cares? The line is intended to give enough of a sketch of what's going on for a chorus to practice against before they start shelling out their hard-earned on an expensive orchestra. Also, by the way, I have little interest in the fact that the average pianist has just under two hands or which notes are to be played with which, though others might. I see your problem, although it's a problem for Muse (and other programs which convert music to abc), rather than for abc itself. Presumably Muse would have no trouble reading the abc if it were written like this: X:1 T:Example L:1/8 M:None K:Bb [V:1] d/e/f B2 B2 e4 FE | [V:2] F2f4 c4 z2 | [V:3] B2 _A2 G3 z3 z2 | Of course, not having the score I don't know which are the actual voices, and there are several different ways in which the notes could be distributed between the voices, but the result makes for much more readable and less ambiguous abc than the first version. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Phil Taylor wrote: Starling wrote: Almost. I had one question. What is a melody note? I have always known melodies as defined by context, and subject to much interpretation, rather than being defined by a specific type of notation. Two different people can call a section of music melody or accompaniment, and both may have valid opinions. I'm curious, what in your implementation requires certain notes to be selected as melody? Or am I totally misinterpreting the use of the phrase melody note? It's an interesting question. The melody note is the note which you (or your computer) would play if the piece were to be arranged for a monophonic instrument, and indeed it is a matter of opinion which is appropriate. Since the computer is not going to be able to make that choice, Bryan's suggestion was that it should be written into the abc using the note order within the chord. I wonder though if we aren't beginning to split some unnecessary hairs here. Are there really any circumstances where the overall length of the chord is different from the length of the melody note? I think the idea of a melody note in a chord is more a question of musical info, rather than printable/layout info. I'm sure lots of people could come up with various contexts in which they'd want various sorts of printed indications of this, but it's nice to have even without that. I have been trying to make a point of putting melodynote first in double-stops for years, just because it seemed like an obvious thing to do. As a clarinet-player, I'm used to picking one note out of several without even really noticing I'm doing it, but it's Yet Another Possibly-Useful Piece of Info that an abc representation can easily hold, so why not ? And, when I was working on the tunes-comparison program, I was glad I had. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Starling wrote - | ... I had one question. What is a melody note? I have always | known melodies as defined by context, and subject to much | interpretation, rather than being defined by a specific type of | notation. Two different people can call a section of music melody or | accompaniment, and both may have valid opinions. I'm curious, what in | your implementation requires certain notes to be selected as melody? | Or am I totally misinterpreting the use of the phrase melody note? In the context of an abc discussion, there's a very practical meaning of melody note. There are a number of abc player programs (that write MIDI or go directly to a sound card) that are monophonic. That is, they can only play one note at a time. When faced with a chord, such a program makes a choice of which note to play. As far as I've heard, all of them make the same choice: the first note. In the current discussion, this is what is meant by the melody note. Granted, you could get into long, deep discussions of the musical meaning of melody note. But this isn't what the current discussion is about. Look at the Subject line. The topic is abc bracketed chord notation. The melody note in a chord is the one that a monphonic player plays. There's nothing deeper than that. Some players can play the entire chord. Some of them can also play the melody note so that it stands out. So even if all the player software goes to full abc, the question doesn't go away. When you write out a bracketed chord in abc, the first note is and probably always will be treated as special by a lot of abc players. We might note that, given this context, it can make sense to start a bracketed chord with a rest. This is telling a player program that there's no melody note for that duration. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Is it legal abc to have a rest in a chord? For instance: X:0 T:Example L:1/8 M:4/2 K:G [zG8 B8 d8]gfe dcBA G8 Failing that we really do need the number on the end like X:1 T:Example L:1/8 M:4/2 K:G [G8 B8 d8]1gfe dcBA G8 Note that one might need single note chords with a length. This leads to interesting things (Bach's prelude no.1 comes to mind) like X:2 T:Example L:1/8 M:4/2 K:G [C,8]1[C7]1[E6]1[G5]1 [c4]1[e3]1[g2]1c Can someone explain why first note determines length is better than shortest determines length. A counter example that doesn;t work the other way would be nice, especially if it were not contrived. Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
I've been transcribing choruses of The Messiah. The voices are of course monophonic, but piano accompaniments have all sorts of nasties. I have found that shortest note determines when next note starts works well. You can always add a rest or two if that's not what you wanted. Laurie - Original Message - From: Phil Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation Bryan Creer wrote: Henrik Norbeck wrote - The alternatives highest note and first-listed note will cause problems, because they make it impossible to have chords with different note lengths, which breaks a lot of fiddle music, see example below. Obviously highest note wouldn't work for your example (Abacus makes a mess of it) but I don't see why first-listed note couldn't work. Two of your mixed length chords are already arranged that way and [d8D7] could be rewritten [D7d8]. Using first-listed note seems to be the only method that makes no assumptions about the music. None of the assumptions that the shortest, longest or highest note is the melody note is necessarily true. I'm inclined to agree with Bryan here. I haven't paid much attention to this previously (it's not common in abc tunes, and I've never wanted to do it in any of my own transcriptions). Using the first-listed note is certainly the most flexible rule, and leaves the decision up to the transcriber. Now that I've come to look at what BarFly actually does with unequal chords I find that I've been quite inconsistent. While the player does what I said previously (takes the longest note as the length of the chord), if you have an unequal chord in one voice of a multi-voice abc, the notes get aligned using the length of the first-listed note. Maybe I'll change the player to match that. Henrik wrote: X:1 T:Målargubbens brudpolska That's one hell of an abc tune! I think I'll add that to my file of test tunes for torturing programs with. BarFly doesn't like the tie between non-contiguous notes (or rather, it doesn't recognise the notes as being contiguous), but if that is removed it displays OK. What it plays is not correct. Does abcMus play it correctly? Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Bryan Creer wrote: | Starling (?) wrote - | | It might be better to have the duration of the chord | equal to the shortest duration within the chord. That way | [L:1/4][A4G2E2] is implicitly equal to a half note, just as in | keyboard music the shortest note in the chord is considered the length | before the next note begins. | | Whoops! Back to the dawing board. There is a lot of abc that would give strange results from the shortest-note rule. Recently someone pointed out that some of my files have notation like [A3G] with no length for the second note. There's a reason for this. The reason is that, a few years ago, when I was first learning to use abc, I came across description of this notation but few examples. So I did the obvious thing, I experimented. The only tool I had at the time that ran on a unix-type system was abc2ps, so I used that. Simple experiments showed that, while a length after the second note was accepted, it had no effect whatsoever. Only the length of the first note was used. I was a bit disappointed, since I was quite familiar with staff notation that put different note heads on a single stem. But the tests showed that abc couldn't do this, and the length of the first note was always applied to the rest of the notes. So, of course, I used that syntax. Some time later I stumbled across discussions of the topic, and it became clear that abc's actual syntax was that chord notes could have different lengths, although some programs might not honor them. So I've been trying since then to dutifully put correct lengths on all of them, with the expectation that eventually all abc tools would do the Right Thing. I've also corrected some of my earlier efforts. But, of course, this is easy to overlook, and I'm not at all surprised that I still have tunes that use only the one length. It's a fact of life that users will learn how things work by trying them out. The documentation is often sketchy and ambiguous, and many users don't even know how to find it. And few people will start off by collecting all software for all machines. I don't have the time or money for this, and I doubt there are many other musicians who do. As an illustration of the difficulty a novice may have finding abc documentation, I just went to the abc home page and did a search for the strings doc and manual. Neither string exists in that rather large page. This is perhaps a silly example, but it does show why users might try experimentation over looking for documentation. Given the fact that at least one major and early abc program uses the first note rule for chord lengths, we might be semi-stuck with that for at least a few years. Violating it will give unintended results for a good amount of the abc that already exists. The most practical approach might be to document the problem, recommend that people put lengths on all notes in a chord, and state that the official length is not well defined. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : Starling (?) wrote - : : Whoops! Back to the dawing board. Well that'll teach me for jumping in the middle of a discussion. :) I was going to bring up the subject anyway, so I figured what the heck? I'll just hop in here. Go easy on me though, I have no idea what I'm talking about. : I think the assumption in the earlier part of this discussion was that melody : note length = chord length so under the first-listed note rule, this was : both the melody note and defined the chord length. Basic rule of data design : - don't pack two bits of information into one bit of data. One of them has : to go. Since there is already a lot of abc out there that won't be obeying : any of these rules, (eg abc2win's ascending order) I don't think first : listed note = melody note can be relied on so I'd go for first listed note : = chord length. The above example could be written : [L:1/4][G2A4E2]. That makes sense. I don't understand though how it's packing two bits of information into one bit of data. Just a different selection algorithm: selecting the first note instead of the smallest note. There is a problem, not with your idea but its possible misinterpretation. The current implementation I've seen of first listed note = melody note discards the durations of all the other notes in the chord. Thus [G2A4E2] is indistinguishable from [G2A2E2]. Currently it's impossible in one voice to put two quarter notes underneath a half note, since the chord containing the first quarter note and the half note would ignore the half note's duration, printing it like a quarter note. We should probably establish that there is a difference between [G2A4E2] and [G2A2E2] if we're going to standardize by the rule first listed note = melody note. Something like The melody note in a chord determines the default duration, but durations specified within the chord override this setting. The duration of the melody note determines when the next note begins, but the durations within the chord specify when each note should end. : I think it needs to be recognised that the [...] construct isn't going to : cover all possibilities. Anything more complex will need separate voices, : possibly combined on one staff. Agreed. It is possible (in abcm2ps) to do this. --- %%staves (1 2) % V:1 V:2 % [V:1] A4 | [V:2] [G2E2][F2D2] | --- Although the above is appropriate for complex polyphony, I agree that this equivalent statement --- [G2A4E2][F2D2] --- is much clearer, easier to maintain and efficient. Starling To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : Well, I can think of a simple example of how one might use this: : [A4G2E2]2[F2D2] : This would have a 4-count melody note above the [G2E2][F2D2] chord : change. With L:1/8, the first chord could be drawn on a single stem, : with an open oval for the A4 note and filled ovals for the G2 and E2 : notes. This sort of notation isn't at all unusual in keyboard music. : The abc seems quite readable to me. It could be too flexible though. How is [A4G2E2]3[F2D2] supposed to be interpreted? It might be better to have the duration of the chord equal to the shortest duration within the chord. That way [L:1/4][A4G2E2] is implicitly equal to a half note, just as in keyboard music the shortest note in the chord is considered the length before the next note begins. In terms of MIDI, the stop-messages would be sent per the individual durations inside the chord, but the start-messages for the next note would be sent after the shortest duration inside the chord. In terms of visually, the longer notes would simply be displayed, the shortest note defining the offset of the next note, measure-wise and in terms of bar-calculation. The problem can be solved already, with programs like abcm2ps. But it seems a bit extreme to define a whole new voice for a few measures of music that have sustained notes over fast progressions. Starling To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Bryan Creer : I've gone for highest note prevails in the counting of the times so you can do things like - X:1 T:The Cotillion C:Trad (Bosham Band) M:4/4 L:1/8 K:G [G4D4][d4B,4]|[B2D4]AB [G2B,4]AB|[c2E4]B2[A2D4]G2|[FD4]GAF [D3A,3]D| The trouble with this is that there are an awful lot of difficult cases to deal with. BarFly handles chords with notes of unequal length by padding out the shorter notes with rests when playing, so it's longest note prevails. The chord gets drawn on a single stem though, so if you have an eighth and a sixteenth in the same chord the result looks like two sixteenths, as they're both drawn on a stem with two tails. The way to deal with this, I suppose, is to draw two separate notes with tails in opposite directions, but then what do you do if there is more than two notes in the chord? I can see both advantages and disadvantages in doing it other ways, but no clear best solution. On the whole, I'd prefer it if people either used as many voices as necessary to represent the music, or used ties, i.e. [B2D2-]D2 instead of [B2D4]. Using unequal notes in chords just leads to too many ambiguities. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
