Stephen McConnell wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 20:22
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
No policy adopted by a project can
-Original Message-
From: William A. Rowe, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 17 December 2004 08:42
To: community@apache.org
Cc: community@apache.org
Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
At 08:30 PM 12/16/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Concerning our decision making processes, I
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
I give you an example of what I call 'compromise' and 'collaboration' ;
Those events as you describe them did happen. If they were the only ones,
we'd have a happy healthy community.
:o)
Each individual
-Original Message-
From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 04:29
To: community@apache.org; Noel J. Bergman
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
I give you an example
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:19, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Greg holds to the
opinion that the appointed Chair is the PMC and that the members are
simply an artificial construct.
Before anyone is requesting the quote where Steve get that notion from;
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 05:05, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Regardless of whether there was any 'right' or 'wrong' position, it
appears that there were irreducible differences. I only recall one
side expressing a willingness to
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
You seem to keep forgetting that I supported Merlin havine a home
at the ASF.
Very much appreciated :o) , as I know you normally saw through all the BS that
was part of the Avalon stage.
Point?
That consensus by attrition is a
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1 with
a technical justification. The issue is how a community deals with those
vetos, and how progress
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Point?
That consensus by attrition is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural
occurring thing in all projects (people do leave healthy projects) which is
replenished with
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 12:09, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
People leaving a project for J Random Reason is acceptable attrition.
People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion is, too.
A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because
they
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 12:02, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1
with a technical justification. The issue is how a community deals with
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:50, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Then you're being uncommonly obtuse
obtuse? (is that insult or compliment? otoh getting the true meaning from a
dictionary is probably not a good idea :o( )
'I have a serious reservation about this because it appears to
be
consensus by attrition is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural
occurring thing in all projects
Not when the attrition is caused by unhealthy friction and stress within the
community, and an active (and stated) goal to remove those who didn't share
a particular vision.
--- Noel
-Original Message-
From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 05:10
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman
Stephen McConnell wrote:
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
* What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
making process?
They have absolute decision making process within the board's
mandate for their project.
According to Greg Stein this should
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:31:03 +0100, Stephen McConnell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.
I've got a better idea ... let's not play the game (any more) at all.
The decision was made (and I, as an Apache member, consider it to be
in *my* best
-Original Message-
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 05:30
To: community@apache.org
Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
consensus by attrition is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural
occurring thing in all projects
Not when the attrition
Stephen McConnell wrote:
If I remember correctly you coined the phrase, and now you are promoting
this left right and center presumably as your rationalization of past
events. Cut to chase - publish all of this - not just the selected
extracts.
Actually, I was just checking some of the
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1
with a technical justification. The issue is how a community deals with
those vetos, and how progress can be made
-Original Message-
From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 20 December 2004 22:16
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Maybe it's about dealing with the breach
-Original Message-
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 05:30
To: community@apache.org
Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Stephen McConnell wrote:
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
* What do you think is the role
On Dec 20, 2004, at 10:39 PM, Craig McClanahan wrote:
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:31:03 +0100, Stephen McConnell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.
I've got a better idea ... let's not play the game (any more) at all.
The decision was made (and I, as an Apache
Le 21 déc. 04, à 08:21, Brian W. Fitzpatrick a écrit :
Take it to alt.talk.wank for crissakes.
+1
-Bertrand
smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
On Tue, 2004-12-21 at 05:39, Craig McClanahan wrote:
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:31:03 +0100, Stephen McConnell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.
I've got a better idea ... let's not play the game (any more) at all.
On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 07:21:09AM +0100, Stephen McConnell wrote:
...
a committee should have the ability to remove a chair
The PMC lacks the authority to do so.
Which is why it was presented as a recommendation! Do you see an
inherent problem with the notion of a Chair accountable
On Dec 21, 2004, at 3:23 AM, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
On Tue, 2004-12-21 at 05:02, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
If there's a reasonable reason, cool. Otherwise, maybe we can move
on. There'll be no 'winner' here.
But we could proclaim Stephen and Niclas winner. Maybe this thread
would end
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
The PMC Chair is an ultimate decision maker
Please check the bylaws for the normal situation.
But -WHEN- things break down, when there is no consensus and there is no
clear ability to reach any conclusion and it is in the interest of the
foundation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because
they don't agree with you is not acceptable.
It is a single occurrence in time, and in my book everyone is allowed to make
occassional mistakes. You make
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
That FUD is prevalent in ASF establishment, against its own contributors, for
unknown reasons, possibly unintentionally, by an unnamed, possibly unknown,
person or a group of persons. And that FUD is being amplified by everyone
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
OK - let's play this game but let's do it properly.
I don't intend to touch this remark.
Open up the Avalon PMC archives and let's really get down to real metal
and in the process I think we will clean up more that a couple of
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 20:59, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
No, I don't think it was a single occurrence.
*I* only know of one such time, in conjunction with Leo Sutic resigning on the
basis of People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion
is acceptable attrition.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure. Of custom,
perhaps, but not of procedure. This is another dead horse that
should stop getting beaten.
A set of polices and procedures were established and these procedures
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 21:39, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
(I don't see any new thread yet.)
Same thread, new Subject
Subject = Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
--
+--//---+
/ http://www.dpml.net /
/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
-Original Message-
From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 14:32
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Once again, there was no technical breach
On Dec 21, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Authority without accountability?
I'm could imagine why you and other members of the board feel
comfortable with this. Make a chair accountable to the committee and
the next thing you know will be board accountability to chairs. Oh god
-
-Original Message-
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 20:13
To: community@apache.org
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Dec 21, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Authority without accountability
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
No policy adopted by a project can supercede the policies of the ASF.
Any that do are null and void, or, at best, advisory only.
Then clearly you have been negligent in your responsibility towards the
Avalon community.
No more
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I realize that this is little more than a filibuster, and I probably
should be smacked for feeding *this* troll
*smack*
Stephen.
Excellent, Geir! Reponding to Stephen, you
-Original Message-
From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 20:22
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
No policy adopted by a project can supercede
-Original Message-
From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 20:22
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
No policy adopted by a project can supercede
Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
address this. You decision to abstain from further discussion within
this context
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
address this. You decision to abstain from further
On Wednesday 22 December 2004 03:54, Scott Sanders wrote:
If there is anything wrong
with the policies and procedures of the ASF, it is that Avalon was not
shut down in 2001 or before.
I have spent most of the evening reading mails pre-Avalon TLP and especially
the period around the TLP was
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
an open community.
Rather, you are not willing to see that despite the ASF's utopian ideals, we
recognize in our legal
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact that the there is a
disconnect within the ASF policies and procedures and the functioning of
an open community. Clearly you are not prepared, willing or able to
address this.
-Original Message-
From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 December 2004 21:55
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Clearly you are not prepared to face up to the fact
Stephen McConnell wrote:
I've tried to stay out of this thread(s), but I just have to say,
give me a break. James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and
I simply cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF
establishment about the treatment of Avalon users.
Perhaps it could
[fixed-width font required]
Serge,
I disagree with your assessment that You [Steve], as a primary actor in the
Avalon community, failed...
1. Steve is accused of becoming the primary actor of late, when the other
primary actors, like Peter Donald, Berin Loritsch, Nicola Ken Barozzi, Paul
On Friday 17 December 2004 00:13, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Well, actually the dictionary does:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition. And, yes, when someone
suggests that those who don't agree with him remove themselves from the
decision-making process, I would call that consensus
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
You really think that we consider that fair judgement?
I do not blame you or Stephen or anyone individually for James's
dependencies. Stephen asked the question of whether these dependencies
could, or rather shouldn't it, lead me to direct blame at the ASF
establishment,
On Monday 20 December 2004 10:01, Serge Knystautas wrote:
That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much.
Passing judgement on someone often doesn't matter much, except to the
'convicted'. Not guilty vs 4 weeks in jail with parole can change
someone's life dramatically.
-Original Message-
From: Serge Knystautas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I can somewhat understand though not empathize with
wanting to have history reflect what you see as having happened.
Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy
here out in the open
If the ASF doesn't work for you then get busy at dpml. Really, go and
innovate. But, please don't stick around and try to prove a point by
continuously trolling the community@ list.
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much.
Passing judgement on someone often doesn't matter much, except to the
'convicted'. Not guilty vs 4 weeks in jail with parole can change
someone's life dramatically.
Never-the-less.
Someone could write a novel on all
At 09:21 PM 12/19/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy
here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists.
Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a
PMC and ensuring that this does
Thanks to those who helped lay the issues to rest, happy ranting
to those who wish to beat the dead horse, and long live good code
in whatever forum is appropriate to it.
Amen, +1
Scott
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as
poisonous as Avalon was at the time?
4. So you don't want to spend any time in Avalon, but you really do want to
make it hard for everyone else? There has to be
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a
PMC and ensuring that this does not get rewarded nor repeated.
Once again, there was no technical breach of procedure. Of custom,
perhaps, but not of
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Irrespective
of the validity of this opinion - members of the board actively
encouraged Aaron to ignore any PMC opinion and take an executive
decision.
Provide citations supporting this, please.
- --
#kenP-)}
Ken Coar,
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 05:05, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as
poisonous as Avalon was at the time?
4. So you don't want to spend any time in Avalon, but you really do want
to make it hard for
The active committer community objected to the transfer of
dead code from cvs to svn, arguing that the Avalon svn
should contain the active alive code.
And that would have been wrong. SVN is our successor to CVS, and we are to
PRESERVE *ALL* history of our code, which is an asset.
In my
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition.
Why didn't you list the meanings given by your link
Because people can read.
1. and 2. is probably what people are referring to
Yes.
Some highly successful projects in ASF, has started with
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
I give you an example of what I call 'compromise' and 'collaboration' ;
Those events as you describe them did happen. If they were the only ones,
we'd have a happy healthy community.
Each individual works on what he/she finds interesting, relevant
and important.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Maybe this about making Apache a better place by identifying hypocrisy
here out in the open instead of behind the protection of private lists.
yawn The facts don't bear witness to the claim.
Maybe it's about dealing with the breach of procedure by the Chair of a
-Original Message-
From: Serge Knystautas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 15 December 2004 21:01
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Smoke and Mirrors - isn't there a passage in the New Testament
with something about sin
-Original Message-
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 15 December 2004 23:11
To: community@apache.org
Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
the only ones who really got hurt were the Avalon users, and the ASF
establishment have already declared
Stephen McConnell wrote:
When you say and the two container factions that chose not to
participate with everyone else you are implying and active
choice? Do you believe that the Avalon community was
presented with a choice?
Yes to both. And multiple of each over extended periods of time.
-Original Message-
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 17 December 2004 03:09
To: community@apache.org
Subject: RE: [ANN] Avalon Closed
Stephen McConnell wrote:
When you say and the two container factions that chose not to
participate with everyone else
Stephen McConnell wrote:
* What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
making process?
The PMC makes all binding decisions regarding a project. If the PMC fails
in that regard to the satisfaction of the Foundation's stakeholders, the
Board can, and will be expected to, take
At 08:30 PM 12/16/2004, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Concerning our decision making processes, I have a couple of
questions...
* What do you think is the role of a PMC in our decision
making process?
They have absolute decision making process within the board's
mandate for their project.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
* Within our decision processes, what do you think is more
important - the community or the individual?
The community. Individuals participate, but the distinction
between an ASF project and a, say, sourceforge project, is that
the ASF project is more than one
J Aaron Farr wrote:
...
The thing is, and the reason for sharing this with the community, is
that PMC's and communities need to watch out for this sort of thing in
your own community. Don't wait for the situation to get critical. PMCs
and PMC Chairs can intervene and should rather than watch
Now the partys over
Im so tired
[ ... as probably everyone else here ...]
Then I see you coming
Out of nowhere
[ ... Is this you, Stephen? ... ]
Much communication in a motion
Without conversation or a notion
[... Yep ...]
Avalon
When the samba takes you
Out of nowhere
And the backgrounds
On Dec 17, 2004, at 10:35 AM, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
Comments in [] by me, with apologies to Bryan Ferry and Roxy Music.
You just ruined this for me - I really liked that song, and I really
hate this whole Avalon thing.
Now, can we please lay this thread to rest? What good is it for?
-Original Message-
From: Henning Schmiedehausen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
Now, can we please lay this thread to rest? What good is it for? Just to
prove I was right?
+1
Sorry for the noise.
I do hope, though, that the larger ASF community does learn some lessons
from what
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Smoke and Mirrors
Not at all. Stephen was incorrect, and I was providing the
correction. I passed no judgement about whether any of the
decisions were the right ones, only stated that they were valid.
- --
#kenP-)}
Ken Coar,
On Thursday 16 December 2004 04:00, Serge Knystautas wrote:
James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and I simply
cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF establishment
about the treatment of Avalon users.
That does not make James/Cocoon and the other ASF projects the
On Wednesday 01 December 2004 11:26, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
more important than the community's vision
The [VOTE] Single Avalon Platform[1] was started by Aaron. The vote passed,
although you decided not to participate.
True, the vote is not about Merlin==Avalon, but about a to-be-defined
Hello everyone.
-Original Message-
From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
The [VOTE] Single Avalon Platform[1] was started by Aaron. The vote
passed, although you decided not to participate.
Votes are not infallible. Communities can change directions especially
when they
On Thursday 16 December 2004 22:51, J Aaron Farr wrote:
In fact, Niclas, why don't you open up
all the [EMAIL PROTECTED] archives? I seem to remember quite a few
conversations by the Metro TLP team about wanting to, what was it?, clean
up the kitchen or take out the trash in reference to
Niclas,
J Aarron said it so well, I really have little to add, but I'll respond to a
couple of your comments directed to me.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
proceeded to engineer consensus by attrition,
I am sick and tired of hearing this about Steve
Many people lay their
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
The Board had nothing to do with these directions or choices. Our only
(recent) involvment was that the VP in charge of Avalon asked us to
terminate the project, so we did.
A board decision taken *without* the endorsement of the
On Thursday 16 December 2004 02:26, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
So the PMC chair was perfectly within its authority to request that
the board terminate the project. And from what I read on the Avalon
lists, my clear impression is that the action had majority support
within the project if
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
Smoke and Mirrors - isn't there a passage in the New Testament with
something about sin and stones ? And it's amazing how high the political
can stack without smell. But, anyway, that is history so let's move on with
our lives - after all, the only ones who really
-Original Message-
From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
And on behalf of the developers at Avalon, I would like to Thank ALL
the
past Chairs and members of the Avalon PMC, for a all-in-all a job well
done.
I'm sorry - but you will have to exclude myself from the above
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 02:26:43AM +0100, Stephen McConnell wrote:
...
The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
project.
Um. No. The Apache Software Foundation established the PMC. Its
purpose was to
Stephen McConnell wrote:
The Avalon community established a PMC to represent the community
interests concerning the direction and administration of the Avalon
project. The community interests were clear - a single platform, one
specification, a cohesive solution. That decision was not
Messages like this are IMHO the main reason, why Avalon failed.
Stephen, you should understand, that community always means compromise.
You didn't seem to be able to accept that. In the end, these tensions
lead to the end of Avalon.
Story is over, no need to kick a dead horse. One of the good
88 matches
Mail list logo
