Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Dave]

Hi Sophie,

On 29.07.2017 19:08, Sophie wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> Le 29/07/2017 à 10:06, Dave a écrit :
>> On the (US English) download page, inside the box for the chosen version
>> it reads:
>> 
>> LibreOffice 5.4.0 release notes
>> Supplementary Downloads:
>> Help for offline use: English (US) (Torrent, Info)
>> need another language?
>> 
>> The installer file for the off-line/local help facility, is offered as
>> "Supplementary" (additional) to the main installation file, because it
>> is a convenience option, not an essential requirement to use the
>> software.
> In some countries it's a legal requirement to have the help files
> alongside the software, that's why it's also available as a package, for
> IT department to be able to install it together with the product.

Yes, I understand that, because I have first hand experience of this
situation with other software installations in commercial & government
locations. I deliberately omitted the point in order not to over
complicate my answer to the question.

>  If the off-line help is not installed the software
>> automatically attempts to provide the on-line equivalent in the user's
>> web browser. If you have a suggestion for the "simple fix" rewording to
>> convey this in a few words, we can put it forward to the website team.
>> "Few words", because everything has to be translated into many
>> (https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/) languages, by our
>> (overworked) translation volunteers.
> Yes, but to be exact, NLPs doesn't translate the exact content, it's up
> to them to translate what they want and adapt it to their language.

I understand that NLPs are free to translate as they see fit, but as you
and I know some NLPs like to keep the appearance and context of their
their websites in close alignment (not an exact translated copy) with
the default (English) website. I used the wrong terminology in saying
"everything has to be translated" when I should have said "the content
might have to be translated". Again, I was trying not to over complicate
my answer to the question.

> Oliver was not suggesting the wiki is not a good source of information.
>> The wiki content has been built up over a number of years and in some
>> areas it would benefit from a bit of housekeeping. As with all things in
>> open source software, there is always much more work to be done than
>> there are hands to do it.
>>
>> You seem to be looking for some kind of single reference source that
>> will inform people about everything within the complex structure of this
>> fairly large project. Can you give some indication as to what level of
>> detail and what audience(s) such a source should cater for. Maybe
>> something suitable could be drafted and put forward as an overview for
>> the "Get Involved" page:
>> https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/
>>
>> You might have misinterpreted Sophie's post. Pootle is not exclusively
>> related to the online version of the software, it is a
>> tool/facility/service used by the translators for many aspects of the
>> software.
> Yes :) thanks for the clarifications
> Cheers
> Sophie
I try to help out where I think it might be useful ;)
Cheers,
Dave
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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Dave]

Hi Cathy,

My responses are given in-line with your original message.

On 05.08.2017 06:24, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Here is a suggestion that might help those of us who are new: a chart
> or listing that attempts to show who is involved in the documentation
> team and what they are doing.

While I understand the "nice to have" proposal you are suggesting, I
think you might be misinterpreting the word "Team". We use the term to
describe those folks who are currently contributing to the project in
whatever area they have chosen. In open source projects contributors
come and go, some contribute intermittently over the long term, others
might make substantial contribution on a one-off basis. There are people
with interests in other areas of the project, who strictly speaking are
not part of the documentation "Team", but provide valuable assistance in
other ways. Keeping track and maintaining the chart/list you suggest
would be a task I would be unwilling to take on, or that all those
people who could be listed would wish to be included. The best that I
can suggest is to look through the "Contributors" and "Acknowledgments"
tables in the front pages of all documentation publications.

> It might be hard to ensure that everyone is included but perhaps it
> could start with the people who have been actively participating in
> the mailing list.

Only list moderators have access to the confidential list of subscriber
details. Posting to a mailing list is no indication of a person's actual
"Team" activity or involvement. Many people post, but only a few contribute.

> There is little hierarchy

No, there is no hierarchy, only levels of experience and willingness to
contribute.

> but some people have higher levels of formal responsibility and it
> would be good to know who they are.

The only people who have formal responsibilities are TDF (The Document
Foundation) board, elected by TDF members and a couple of sub-committees.
See the "Foundation" and "Governance" menu entries
http://www.documentfoundation.org/ for more information.
TDF board oversees the general management of the LibreOffice and
Document Liberation projects. TDF has appointed a small number of
contractors to assist in moving some areas of the LibreOffice project
forward, note that I said "assist", not control. Oliver is a TDF
founding member, a long time supporter of this software's development
since the time when it was first open sourced under the name
OpenOffice.org and has taken on the responsibility of assisting those of
us who wish to contribute to the documentation. Beyond that, all
contributors are equal. In this respect the only difference between you
and I is that I have long term experience with the software and although
not always an active contributor I have followed the documentation
development from it's beginning, but just like you, I had to research
and ask questions to understand how things worked when I first took an
interest in the software and project.

> If possible, it would be interesting to know people's geographical
> locations as well.

Unless contributors chose to volunteer that information, I don't know
how we could establish that. FWIW. I was born (hatched?) in West London,
near Heathrow airport and now live in Northern Italy. Oliver tells me he
is of French extraction and now lives in Brazil. I think Paul recently
mentioned that he is Canadian. In a previous post Jean Weber said she is
in the northern part of Queensland, Australia and Hazel is in the UK
(she thinks). In his introductory post Jorge mentioned Costa Rica. My
best guess is that you are somewhere in North America. Likewise, I could
only guess at the location of any other volunteers.

I recall seeing at least one other open source project's website that
had a world map pinned with the location of it's contributors?
committers? or similar. If you believe something like this would serve
to create more of a "team spirit", put out a call on this list for
contributors to provide the information and put it on the documentation
wiki.

> A chart or listing for the overall LibreOffice structure would also be
> helpful. It need not be very detailed but could give a sense of how it
> is organized and maybe who some of the main players are.

In terms of formal structure I can only refer you back to TDF web page menu.

For LibreOffice project main areas of activity see the list under the
heading "Teams": https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Main_Page

For the organisation of the documentation development, please put
forward specific recommendations/suggestions for the changes/additions
you want to make to
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Development if there
are no objections made within a reasonable period of time (we are all
subject to peer review), you are free to go ahead and make those
changes, or find someone willing to make them for you.

Not sure what you mean by "main players", because in my mind that
creates an idea of an organization 

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Dave]

The LibreOffice project two main web facing aspects, the website
https://www.libreoffice.org/ and the wiki
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Main_Page
I think you already have wiki access, in which case you can make the
changes yourself, preferably after notifying the team (eg. the
documentation team's wiki) about those changes.
For the website there are a few different channels open for you to
submit your suggestions. Two that you might consider are:

  * Bugzilla (https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/ not an easy maze to
navigate) which, in addition to bug reporting, is the central
facility for anyone to request/suggest things like, core software
code changes by the developer team, software user interface by the
design team.
Bugzilla submissions are categorized into areas of the project to
which they relate. The "needsUXEval" Cor mentioned is a flag/marker
which can be added to bring the submission to the attention of the
design/user_experience team.

  * Post to the website mailing list webs...@global.libreoffice.org,
with specific details of your suggestion. Note: The website team is
often referred to as "Infra" (abbreviation of Infrastructure) See
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:Infrastructure for more
info.

The post from Ilmari Lauhakangas reached the list while I was typing
this and gives much more detailed step-by-step information.

Regards

Dave


On 05.08.2017 05:55, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
> There have been several posts about this issue but I am still not
> clear how to suggest changes to the user interface. Exactly what
> should I do?
>
>
> On 7/29/2017 5:46 AM, Olivier Hallot wrote:
>> Hello Cathy
>>
>> needsUXEval is a buzzword for "Need User Experience Team evaluation". We
>> have a group of people specialized in software user interface design
>> that evaluates all aspects of the human interaction with the software.
>>
>> Em 28/07/2017 23:27, Cathy Crumbley escreveu:
>>>
>>> I appreciate your advice about how to get the wording revised on the
>>> program download page. Unfortunately, I don't know what adding
>>> "needsUXEval to the keywords field" means.
>>>
>>> Could you please translate into plain English?
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Ilmari Lauhakangas]

The process would be as follows for issues needing input from the design 
team:


1. Register an account in Bugzilla: 
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/createaccount.cgi It requires an 
email confirmation.
2. Start the creation of a new report: 
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=LibreOffice

3. Click Show advanced fields.
4. If it is about the general interface, change component to UI. If it 
is about some specific feature, pick an application (Writer, Calc..).
5. If the issue is more of an innovative improvement rather than a fix 
for something that broke, change Severity to enhancement.

6. In the Summary field, give a brief description of the matter.
7. In the description field you can describe it in more detail.
8. In the CC field, insert libreoffice-ux-adv...@lists.freedesktop.org
9. In the keywords field near the bottom, insert needsUXEval

Optionally, you can include a screenshot with the Add an attachment 
button. This is only needed for those cases when a picture tells more 
than a thousand words.


Reporting something concerning the website(s), Redmine is the 
appropriate tool: 
https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects/infrastructure


On 05.08.2017 06:55, Cathy Crumbley wrote:

There have been several posts about this issue but I am still not
clear how to suggest changes to the user interface. Exactly what
should I do?


On 7/29/2017 5:46 AM, Olivier Hallot wrote:

Hello Cathy

needsUXEval is a buzzword for "Need User Experience Team evaluation". 
We

have a group of people specialized in software user interface design
that evaluates all aspects of the human interaction with the software.

Em 28/07/2017 23:27, Cathy Crumbley escreveu:


I appreciate your advice about how to get the wording revised on the
program download page. Unfortunately, I don't know what adding
"needsUXEval to the keywords field" means.

Could you please translate into plain English?


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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Cathy Crumbley]

Dave,

Here is a suggestion that might help those of us who are new: a chart or 
listing that attempts to show who is involved in the documentation team 
and what they are doing.  It might be hard to ensure that everyone is 
included but perhaps it could start with the people who have been 
actively participating in the mailing list.  There is little hierarchy 
but some people have higher levels of formal responsibility and it would 
be good to know who they are.  If possible, it would be interesting to 
know people's geographical locations as well.


A chart or listing for the overall LibreOffice structure would also be 
helpful. It need not be very detailed but could give a sense of how it 
is organized and maybe who some of the main players are.


It should be possible to produce these without significant effort. Or 
better still, they already exist and just need to be linked to.


Cheers,

Cathy

On 7/29/2017 4:06 AM, Dave wrote:

On the (US English) download page, inside the box for the chosen version
it reads:

LibreOffice 5.4.0 release notes
Supplementary Downloads:
Help for offline use: English (US) (Torrent, Info)
need another language?

The installer file for the off-line/local help facility, is offered as
"Supplementary" (additional) to the main installation file, because it
is a convenience option, not an essential requirement to use the
software. If the off-line help is not installed the software
automatically attempts to provide the on-line equivalent in the user's
web browser. If you have a suggestion for the "simple fix" rewording to
convey this in a few words, we can put it forward to the website team.
"Few words", because everything has to be translated into many
(https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/) languages, by our
(overworked) translation volunteers.

Oliver was not suggesting the wiki is not a good source of information.
The wiki content has been built up over a number of years and in some
areas it would benefit from a bit of housekeeping. As with all things in
open source software, there is always much more work to be done than
there are hands to do it.

You seem to be looking for some kind of single reference source that
will inform people about everything within the complex structure of this
fairly large project. Can you give some indication as to what level of
detail and what audience(s) such a source should cater for. Maybe
something suitable could be drafted and put forward as an overview for
the "Get Involved" page:
https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/

You might have misinterpreted Sophie's post. Pootle is not exclusively
related to the online version of the software, it is a
tool/facility/service used by the translators for many aspects of the
software.


On 29.07.2017 02:14, Cathy Crumbley wrote:

Thanks for your input. These is much to learn!

I am referring to the LibreOffice download page. Why? Because it sounds
like I am not the only one who is unaware that we need to download a
separate file for the Help files. It should be a relatively simple fix
to just re-word what is on that page so that people understand.  It is
puzzling that this has not been done since people are aware of the problem.

I can see what is on the wiki. However, Olivier said "But it requires
permanent reordering and addition/deletion/update of hundreds of pages,
permanently." I was trying to understand if he was saying that it is not
a great source of information. In any case, it sounds like it is the
only place to get an overview of LibreOffice (although it is still
challenging to do so).

 From your description of Pootle, I was able to learn that an online
version of LibreOffice is in the works. I don't really understand the
rest of it, but at least I now know that Pootle is related to that project.

On 7/28/2017 4:41 AM, Sophie wrote:

Hi Cathy,
Le 27/07/2017 à 21:55, Cathy Crumbley a écrit :

Hi Olivier,

Thanks again for the responses.

If this has been a problem for a while, I am puzzled about why it has
not been fixed. Are you aware of a reason why the download page cannot
be re-worded now?

It depends on which download page you're talking about. The download
page on the main website is reworked by infrastructure, design and
marketing project, together with the donate page. It's currently being
improved before being translated. For the download page of the
documentation project, the page is quite new, and maybe no volunteer had
time to work on it for the moment.

To be clear, what are you saying is the best source of information for
people who are new to this and want to learn about the overall
LibreOffice project?  Are you saying that the wiki is not useful because
so much work needs to be done on it?

On the wiki, you'll see the different sub-projects of the LibreOffice
overall project, mainly: development, QA (quality assurance), UX/Design
(user experience), l10n (localization), documentation, infrastructure,
marketing, certification and NLPs (native language 

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Cathy Crumbley]

There have been several posts about this issue but I am still not clear 
how to suggest changes to the user interface. Exactly what should I do?



On 7/29/2017 5:46 AM, Olivier Hallot wrote:

Hello Cathy

needsUXEval is a buzzword for "Need User Experience Team evaluation". We
have a group of people specialized in software user interface design
that evaluates all aspects of the human interaction with the software.

Em 28/07/2017 23:27, Cathy Crumbley escreveu:


I appreciate your advice about how to get the wording revised on the
program download page. Unfortunately, I don't know what adding
"needsUXEval to the keywords field" means.

Could you please translate into plain English?



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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Jean Weber]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Jean Weber  wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 5:52 PM, Cor Nouws  wrote:
>> Hi Cathy,
>>
>> Dave wrote on 26-07-17 11:26:
>>> On 26.07.2017 03:08, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
>>
 It can take many words to explain a relatively simple concept when
 wording in the program itself is unclear or even misleading. Is there a
 mechanism for giving feedback to the developers about changing some of
 the wording within the program? If so, how does that work?
>>>
>>> As to raising the issue of unclear or even misleading wording in the
>>> help files, my _*guess*_ would be, that for very specific entries in the
>>> help files you could raise an issue on Bugzilla:
>>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport
>>> or contact Oliver for assistance.
>>
>> Indeed issues are the proper way to suggest better wording.
>> You may add needsUXEval to the keywords field, so that the UX team,
>> deciding on improvements, finds your proposal easily.
>>
>> thanks for your help!
>> Cor
>
> Cor,
> I don't see a keywords field when entering a bug in Bugzilla.
> Are you perhaps referring to the Summary field? If not, what am I missing?
>
> --Jean

Ah, I found it. I had to click "Show Advanced Fields" fields first.
Then it's down near the bottom, below Add an Attachment.

--Jean

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Jean Weber]

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 5:52 PM, Cor Nouws  wrote:
> Hi Cathy,
>
> Dave wrote on 26-07-17 11:26:
>> On 26.07.2017 03:08, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
>
>>> It can take many words to explain a relatively simple concept when
>>> wording in the program itself is unclear or even misleading. Is there a
>>> mechanism for giving feedback to the developers about changing some of
>>> the wording within the program? If so, how does that work?
>>
>> As to raising the issue of unclear or even misleading wording in the
>> help files, my _*guess*_ would be, that for very specific entries in the
>> help files you could raise an issue on Bugzilla:
>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport
>> or contact Oliver for assistance.
>
> Indeed issues are the proper way to suggest better wording.
> You may add needsUXEval to the keywords field, so that the UX team,
> deciding on improvements, finds your proposal easily.
>
> thanks for your help!
> Cor

Cor,
I don't see a keywords field when entering a bug in Bugzilla.
Are you perhaps referring to the Summary field? If not, what am I missing?

--Jean

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Sophie]

Hi Dave,
Le 29/07/2017 à 10:06, Dave a écrit :
> On the (US English) download page, inside the box for the chosen version
> it reads:
> 
> LibreOffice 5.4.0 release notes
> Supplementary Downloads:
> Help for offline use: English (US) (Torrent, Info)
> need another language?
> 
> The installer file for the off-line/local help facility, is offered as
> "Supplementary" (additional) to the main installation file, because it
> is a convenience option, not an essential requirement to use the
> software.

In some countries it's a legal requirement to have the help files
alongside the software, that's why it's also available as a package, for
IT department to be able to install it together with the product.


 If the off-line help is not installed the software
> automatically attempts to provide the on-line equivalent in the user's
> web browser. If you have a suggestion for the "simple fix" rewording to
> convey this in a few words, we can put it forward to the website team.
> "Few words", because everything has to be translated into many
> (https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/) languages, by our
> (overworked) translation volunteers.

Yes, but to be exact, NLPs doesn't translate the exact content, it's up
to them to translate what they want and adapt it to their language.
> 
> Oliver was not suggesting the wiki is not a good source of information.
> The wiki content has been built up over a number of years and in some
> areas it would benefit from a bit of housekeeping. As with all things in
> open source software, there is always much more work to be done than
> there are hands to do it.
> 
> You seem to be looking for some kind of single reference source that
> will inform people about everything within the complex structure of this
> fairly large project. Can you give some indication as to what level of
> detail and what audience(s) such a source should cater for. Maybe
> something suitable could be drafted and put forward as an overview for
> the "Get Involved" page:
> https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/
> 
> You might have misinterpreted Sophie's post. Pootle is not exclusively
> related to the online version of the software, it is a
> tool/facility/service used by the translators for many aspects of the
> software.

Yes :) thanks for the clarifications
Cheers
Sophie

-- 
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GSM: +33683901545
IRC: sophi
Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Olivier Hallot]

Hello Cathy

needsUXEval is a buzzword for "Need User Experience Team evaluation". We
have a group of people specialized in software user interface design
that evaluates all aspects of the human interaction with the software.

Em 28/07/2017 23:27, Cathy Crumbley escreveu:
> 
> 
> I appreciate your advice about how to get the wording revised on the
> program download page. Unfortunately, I don't know what adding
> "needsUXEval to the keywords field" means.
> 
> Could you please translate into plain English?

-- 
Olivier Hallot
LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
Comunidade LibreOffice
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
http://tdf.io/joinus

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Dave]

On the (US English) download page, inside the box for the chosen version
it reads:

LibreOffice 5.4.0 release notes
Supplementary Downloads:
Help for offline use: English (US) (Torrent, Info)
need another language?

The installer file for the off-line/local help facility, is offered as
"Supplementary" (additional) to the main installation file, because it
is a convenience option, not an essential requirement to use the
software. If the off-line help is not installed the software
automatically attempts to provide the on-line equivalent in the user's
web browser. If you have a suggestion for the "simple fix" rewording to
convey this in a few words, we can put it forward to the website team.
"Few words", because everything has to be translated into many
(https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/) languages, by our
(overworked) translation volunteers.

Oliver was not suggesting the wiki is not a good source of information.
The wiki content has been built up over a number of years and in some
areas it would benefit from a bit of housekeeping. As with all things in
open source software, there is always much more work to be done than
there are hands to do it.

You seem to be looking for some kind of single reference source that
will inform people about everything within the complex structure of this
fairly large project. Can you give some indication as to what level of
detail and what audience(s) such a source should cater for. Maybe
something suitable could be drafted and put forward as an overview for
the "Get Involved" page:
https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/

You might have misinterpreted Sophie's post. Pootle is not exclusively
related to the online version of the software, it is a
tool/facility/service used by the translators for many aspects of the
software.


On 29.07.2017 02:14, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
> Thanks for your input. These is much to learn!
> 
> I am referring to the LibreOffice download page. Why? Because it sounds
> like I am not the only one who is unaware that we need to download a
> separate file for the Help files. It should be a relatively simple fix
> to just re-word what is on that page so that people understand.  It is
> puzzling that this has not been done since people are aware of the problem.
> 
> I can see what is on the wiki. However, Olivier said "But it requires
> permanent reordering and addition/deletion/update of hundreds of pages,
> permanently." I was trying to understand if he was saying that it is not
> a great source of information. In any case, it sounds like it is the
> only place to get an overview of LibreOffice (although it is still
> challenging to do so).
> 
> From your description of Pootle, I was able to learn that an online
> version of LibreOffice is in the works. I don't really understand the
> rest of it, but at least I now know that Pootle is related to that project.
> 
> On 7/28/2017 4:41 AM, Sophie wrote:
>> Hi Cathy,
>> Le 27/07/2017 à 21:55, Cathy Crumbley a écrit :
>>> Hi Olivier,
>>>
>>> Thanks again for the responses.
>>>
>>> If this has been a problem for a while, I am puzzled about why it has
>>> not been fixed. Are you aware of a reason why the download page cannot
>>> be re-worded now?
>> It depends on which download page you're talking about. The download
>> page on the main website is reworked by infrastructure, design and
>> marketing project, together with the donate page. It's currently being
>> improved before being translated. For the download page of the
>> documentation project, the page is quite new, and maybe no volunteer had
>> time to work on it for the moment.
>>> To be clear, what are you saying is the best source of information for
>>> people who are new to this and want to learn about the overall
>>> LibreOffice project?  Are you saying that the wiki is not useful because
>>> so much work needs to be done on it?
>> On the wiki, you'll see the different sub-projects of the LibreOffice
>> overall project, mainly: development, QA (quality assurance), UX/Design
>> (user experience), l10n (localization), documentation, infrastructure,
>> marketing, certification and NLPs (native language projects). All those
>> sub projects interact together to finally deliver LibreOffice the
>> product. You'll find also information about the Document Liberation
>> Project (DLP) which is another project under TDF umbrealla.
>>> As long as I am asking questions, here is one more: What is the Pootle
>>> server?
>> Pootle is an instance used by the l10n team to localize LibreOffice UI
>> and Help, part of the website, LibreOffice On Line currently.
>>
>> Don't hesitate to ask any question you have :)
>> Cheers
>> Sophie
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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Cathy Crumbley]

Hi Cor,

I appreciate your advice about how to get the wording revised on the 
program download page. Unfortunately, I don't know what adding 
"needsUXEval to the keywords field" means.


Could you please translate into plain English?

Thank you.

Cathy

On 7/28/2017 3:16 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:

Hi Cathy,

Cathy Crumbley wrote on 28-07-17 06:18:


Just to be clear, I was not expressing problems with the Help files. In
fact,  I was not even aware that they exist when I wrote this.

In know that you was talking about the user interface. That is what my
comment is about too ;)


On 7/27/2017 3:52 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:


Indeed issues are the proper way to suggest better wording.
You may add needsUXEval to the keywords field, so that the UX team,
deciding on improvements, finds your proposal easily.





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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Cathy Crumbley]

Thanks for your input. These is much to learn!

I am referring to the LibreOffice download page. Why? Because it sounds 
like I am not the only one who is unaware that we need to download a 
separate file for the Help files. It should be a relatively simple fix 
to just re-word what is on that page so that people understand.  It is 
puzzling that this has not been done since people are aware of the problem.


I can see what is on the wiki. However, Olivier said "But it requires 
permanent reordering and addition/deletion/update of hundreds of pages, 
permanently." I was trying to understand if he was saying that it is not 
a great source of information. In any case, it sounds like it is the 
only place to get an overview of LibreOffice (although it is still 
challenging to do so).


From your description of Pootle, I was able to learn that an online 
version of LibreOffice is in the works. I don't really understand the 
rest of it, but at least I now know that Pootle is related to that project.


On 7/28/2017 4:41 AM, Sophie wrote:

Hi Cathy,
Le 27/07/2017 à 21:55, Cathy Crumbley a écrit :

Hi Olivier,

Thanks again for the responses.

If this has been a problem for a while, I am puzzled about why it has
not been fixed. Are you aware of a reason why the download page cannot
be re-worded now?

It depends on which download page you're talking about. The download
page on the main website is reworked by infrastructure, design and
marketing project, together with the donate page. It's currently being
improved before being translated. For the download page of the
documentation project, the page is quite new, and maybe no volunteer had
time to work on it for the moment.

To be clear, what are you saying is the best source of information for
people who are new to this and want to learn about the overall
LibreOffice project?  Are you saying that the wiki is not useful because
so much work needs to be done on it?

On the wiki, you'll see the different sub-projects of the LibreOffice
overall project, mainly: development, QA (quality assurance), UX/Design
(user experience), l10n (localization), documentation, infrastructure,
marketing, certification and NLPs (native language projects). All those
sub projects interact together to finally deliver LibreOffice the
product. You'll find also information about the Document Liberation
Project (DLP) which is another project under TDF umbrealla.

As long as I am asking questions, here is one more: What is the Pootle
server?

Pootle is an instance used by the l10n team to localize LibreOffice UI
and Help, part of the website, LibreOffice On Line currently.

Don't hesitate to ask any question you have :)
Cheers
Sophie




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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Sophie]

Hi Cathy,
Le 27/07/2017 à 21:55, Cathy Crumbley a écrit :
> Hi Olivier,
> 
> Thanks again for the responses.
> 
> If this has been a problem for a while, I am puzzled about why it has
> not been fixed. Are you aware of a reason why the download page cannot
> be re-worded now?

It depends on which download page you're talking about. The download
page on the main website is reworked by infrastructure, design and
marketing project, together with the donate page. It's currently being
improved before being translated. For the download page of the
documentation project, the page is quite new, and maybe no volunteer had
time to work on it for the moment.
> 
> To be clear, what are you saying is the best source of information for
> people who are new to this and want to learn about the overall
> LibreOffice project?  Are you saying that the wiki is not useful because
> so much work needs to be done on it?

On the wiki, you'll see the different sub-projects of the LibreOffice
overall project, mainly: development, QA (quality assurance), UX/Design
(user experience), l10n (localization), documentation, infrastructure,
marketing, certification and NLPs (native language projects). All those
sub projects interact together to finally deliver LibreOffice the
product. You'll find also information about the Document Liberation
Project (DLP) which is another project under TDF umbrealla.
> 
> As long as I am asking questions, here is one more: What is the Pootle
> server?

Pootle is an instance used by the l10n team to localize LibreOffice UI
and Help, part of the website, LibreOffice On Line currently.

Don't hesitate to ask any question you have :)
Cheers
Sophie

-- 
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GSM: +33683901545
IRC: sophi
Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Cathy,

Cathy Crumbley wrote on 28-07-17 06:18:

> Just to be clear, I was not expressing problems with the Help files. In
> fact,  I was not even aware that they exist when I wrote this.

In know that you was talking about the user interface. That is what my
comment is about too ;)

> On 7/27/2017 3:52 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:

>> Indeed issues are the proper way to suggest better wording.
>> You may add needsUXEval to the keywords field, so that the UX team,
>> deciding on improvements, finds your proposal easily.


-- 
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- volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org
- The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Cathy Crumbley]

Hi Cor,

Just to be clear, I was not expressing problems with the Help files. In 
fact,  I was not even aware that they exist when I wrote this.


Thank you!

Cathy

On 7/27/2017 3:52 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:

Hi Cathy,

Dave wrote on 26-07-17 11:26:

On 26.07.2017 03:08, Cathy Crumbley wrote:

It can take many words to explain a relatively simple concept when
wording in the program itself is unclear or even misleading. Is there a
mechanism for giving feedback to the developers about changing some of
the wording within the program? If so, how does that work?

As to raising the issue of unclear or even misleading wording in the
help files, my _*guess*_ would be, that for very specific entries in the
help files you could raise an issue on Bugzilla:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport
or contact Oliver for assistance.

Indeed issues are the proper way to suggest better wording.
You may add needsUXEval to the keywords field, so that the UX team,
deciding on improvements, finds your proposal easily.

thanks for your help!
Cor





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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Cathy Crumbley]

Hi Olivier,

Thanks again for the responses.

If this has been a problem for a while, I am puzzled about why it has 
not been fixed. Are you aware of a reason why the download page cannot 
be re-worded now?


To be clear, what are you saying is the best source of information for 
people who are new to this and want to learn about the overall 
LibreOffice project?  Are you saying that the wiki is not useful because 
so much work needs to be done on it?


As long as I am asking questions, here is one more: What is the Pootle 
server?


Cheers,

Cathy


On 7/27/2017 3:29 PM, Olivier Hallot wrote:

Hello Cathy


Em 27/07/2017 15:16, Cathy Crumbley escreveu:

Hi Olivier,


(snip)


Finally, I downloaded the file and realized what I have been missing.

Perhaps I am a dunderhead but if I missed the Help files, perhaps others
have. I would strongly recommend that the download page be clearer about
what the file contains. Can this feedback be passed on to the
appropriate people or should I submit it somewhere?


No dunderhead at all and thanks again for raising the issue. This is an
old issue and people keep bypassing the download of the Help. I know the
Help is not downloaded because it pulls a string in the forums and
mailing lists on very basic subjects, typical of those who do not access
a Help, for whatever reason.


On another note, I have been wondering how to find information about the
project as a whole. Then I looked at the blog post you linked to and
found pages with some of the information I have been looking for. I
would like to suggest that new members like me be referred to that site
as an introduction to the LibreOffice project.

We keep a wiki for that purpose. But it requires permanent reordering
and addition/deletion/update of hundreds of pages, permanently.

We also have our main website (www.libreoffice.org) with information on
the project.


By the way, I noticed an archived tender (July 2016) to redesign the
download page. Does anyone know if that means that it has already been
redesigned and that it will not be changed for a while?

The download page has been reworked recently.

Kind regards



Thanks again.

Cathy

On 7/26/2017 7:00 PM, Olivier Hallot wrote:

Hi Cathy

Em 25/07/2017 22:08, Cathy Crumbley escreveu:

What is the relationship between Help and the Guides? It sounds like
they are on two separate tracks. Are they duplicating information
independently?

I'm glad you raised this question.

Yes they are separated tracks and contents duplication is a fact, at
least partially. Help pages are instance of web on-line pages, and
guides are instances of printed books. Different form factors for
different usage.

The Help is part of the software and is invoked when you press F1 or
click on the Help button in a  dialog.

Because it is part of the application, the following applies

* It is a flat and factual description of the feature, eventually with
examples and use cases. Its objective is to help users to get the job done.

* The Help pages are translated into all released languages (currently
68 languages).

* It must contain the most accurate information on the features of the
software.

* Is must be indexed for easy referencing and search.

However, not everything is actually true...

* Translation of the Help depends on volunteers, which have limited time
available for the task. This however does not prevent us from releasing
new versions, but with unfinished translations in some cases.

* A significant part of the Help is also a user guide, which overlaps
with the current Guides we have. However, editing Help pages and
inserting it into the Help system is way more complex than
writing/updating a text document in Writer, as we do for the guides. I'd
like to discuss the contents of the Help User Guide and see if the Help
system needs to get leaner.

* The help system is poorly illustrated, almost everything is textual
with very few images and no videos.

* Because of the way the software is developed, LibreOffice developers
don't write software specification paperwork, and new features mushrooms
in the code, with no documentation or help page associated (with rare
and much appreciated exceptions). Many new developments as well as
changes in the user interface are not documented yet in the Help, which
means the Help is lagging with respect to the software. We are however
collecting these gaps in a list and looking for volunteers to write about.

What prevents us to evolve with the Help, and find something more easy
for volunteers to contribute?

* we must absolutely preserve its current contents and translations
process, people don't like useless rework.

* We don't have a replacing technology that can in a finger snap, make
all the legacy content available to a more user-friendly editing
process. My last blog post addresses the issue.
https://goo.gl/j3DVAG

There will be a workshop in Rome, at our LibreOffice Conference where we
will discuss these issues and more. I hope to meet all 

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Olivier Hallot]

Hello Cathy


Em 27/07/2017 15:16, Cathy Crumbley escreveu:
> Hi Olivier,
> 

(snip)

> Finally, I downloaded the file and realized what I have been missing.
> 
> Perhaps I am a dunderhead but if I missed the Help files, perhaps others
> have. I would strongly recommend that the download page be clearer about
> what the file contains. Can this feedback be passed on to the
> appropriate people or should I submit it somewhere?
> 

No dunderhead at all and thanks again for raising the issue. This is an
old issue and people keep bypassing the download of the Help. I know the
Help is not downloaded because it pulls a string in the forums and
mailing lists on very basic subjects, typical of those who do not access
a Help, for whatever reason.

> On another note, I have been wondering how to find information about the
> project as a whole. Then I looked at the blog post you linked to and
> found pages with some of the information I have been looking for. I
> would like to suggest that new members like me be referred to that site
> as an introduction to the LibreOffice project.

We keep a wiki for that purpose. But it requires permanent reordering
and addition/deletion/update of hundreds of pages, permanently.

We also have our main website (www.libreoffice.org) with information on
the project.

> 
> By the way, I noticed an archived tender (July 2016) to redesign the
> download page. Does anyone know if that means that it has already been
> redesigned and that it will not be changed for a while?

The download page has been reworked recently.

Kind regards


> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Cathy
> 
> On 7/26/2017 7:00 PM, Olivier Hallot wrote:
>> Hi Cathy
>>
>> Em 25/07/2017 22:08, Cathy Crumbley escreveu:
>>> What is the relationship between Help and the Guides? It sounds like
>>> they are on two separate tracks. Are they duplicating information
>>> independently?
>> I'm glad you raised this question.
>>
>> Yes they are separated tracks and contents duplication is a fact, at
>> least partially. Help pages are instance of web on-line pages, and
>> guides are instances of printed books. Different form factors for
>> different usage.
>>
>> The Help is part of the software and is invoked when you press F1 or
>> click on the Help button in a  dialog.
>>
>> Because it is part of the application, the following applies
>>
>> * It is a flat and factual description of the feature, eventually with
>> examples and use cases. Its objective is to help users to get the job done.
>>
>> * The Help pages are translated into all released languages (currently
>> 68 languages).
>>
>> * It must contain the most accurate information on the features of the
>> software.
>>
>> * Is must be indexed for easy referencing and search.
>>
>> However, not everything is actually true...
>>
>> * Translation of the Help depends on volunteers, which have limited time
>> available for the task. This however does not prevent us from releasing
>> new versions, but with unfinished translations in some cases.
>>
>> * A significant part of the Help is also a user guide, which overlaps
>> with the current Guides we have. However, editing Help pages and
>> inserting it into the Help system is way more complex than
>> writing/updating a text document in Writer, as we do for the guides. I'd
>> like to discuss the contents of the Help User Guide and see if the Help
>> system needs to get leaner.
>>
>> * The help system is poorly illustrated, almost everything is textual
>> with very few images and no videos.
>>
>> * Because of the way the software is developed, LibreOffice developers
>> don't write software specification paperwork, and new features mushrooms
>> in the code, with no documentation or help page associated (with rare
>> and much appreciated exceptions). Many new developments as well as
>> changes in the user interface are not documented yet in the Help, which
>> means the Help is lagging with respect to the software. We are however
>> collecting these gaps in a list and looking for volunteers to write about.
>>
>> What prevents us to evolve with the Help, and find something more easy
>> for volunteers to contribute?
>>
>> * we must absolutely preserve its current contents and translations
>> process, people don't like useless rework.
>>
>> * We don't have a replacing technology that can in a finger snap, make
>> all the legacy content available to a more user-friendly editing
>> process. My last blog post addresses the issue.
>> https://goo.gl/j3DVAG
>>
>> There will be a workshop in Rome, at our LibreOffice Conference where we
>> will discuss these issues and more. I hope to meet all authors involved.
>>
>> http://conference.libreoffice.org/
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
> 

-- 
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LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
Comunidade LibreOffice
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
http://tdf.io/joinus

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] simplifying documentation

[Cathy Crumbley]

Hi Olivier,

Thank you for the explanation. It is impressive to see that it is 
available (in part) in 68 languages.


I have been using LibreOffice since last September. In that time, I have 
barely used Help because it is so hard to find the information I am 
looking for. Since it seems to offer little value, I have been wondering 
why so much work has been going into developing it.


Then, I read below where you say "Because it is part of the 
application..."  This made no sense since it is not part of the 
application but rather a website. This made me wonder if I was missing 
something.


So, I went to the download page and noticed that there is a file called 
"Help for offline use." It is possible that I saw this before but paid 
no attention because I am always online.


Finally, I downloaded the file and realized what I have been missing.

Perhaps I am a dunderhead but if I missed the Help files, perhaps others 
have. I would strongly recommend that the download page be clearer about 
what the file contains. Can this feedback be passed on to the 
appropriate people or should I submit it somewhere?


On another note, I have been wondering how to find information about the 
project as a whole. Then I looked at the blog post you linked to and 
found pages with some of the information I have been looking for. I 
would like to suggest that new members like me be referred to that site 
as an introduction to the LibreOffice project.


By the way, I noticed an archived tender (July 2016) to redesign the 
download page. Does anyone know if that means that it has already been 
redesigned and that it will not be changed for a while?


Thanks again.

Cathy

On 7/26/2017 7:00 PM, Olivier Hallot wrote:

Hi Cathy

Em 25/07/2017 22:08, Cathy Crumbley escreveu:

What is the relationship between Help and the Guides? It sounds like
they are on two separate tracks. Are they duplicating information
independently?

I'm glad you raised this question.

Yes they are separated tracks and contents duplication is a fact, at
least partially. Help pages are instance of web on-line pages, and
guides are instances of printed books. Different form factors for
different usage.

The Help is part of the software and is invoked when you press F1 or
click on the Help button in a  dialog.

Because it is part of the application, the following applies

* It is a flat and factual description of the feature, eventually with
examples and use cases. Its objective is to help users to get the job done.

* The Help pages are translated into all released languages (currently
68 languages).

* It must contain the most accurate information on the features of the
software.

* Is must be indexed for easy referencing and search.

However, not everything is actually true...

* Translation of the Help depends on volunteers, which have limited time
available for the task. This however does not prevent us from releasing
new versions, but with unfinished translations in some cases.

* A significant part of the Help is also a user guide, which overlaps
with the current Guides we have. However, editing Help pages and
inserting it into the Help system is way more complex than
writing/updating a text document in Writer, as we do for the guides. I'd
like to discuss the contents of the Help User Guide and see if the Help
system needs to get leaner.

* The help system is poorly illustrated, almost everything is textual
with very few images and no videos.

* Because of the way the software is developed, LibreOffice developers
don't write software specification paperwork, and new features mushrooms
in the code, with no documentation or help page associated (with rare
and much appreciated exceptions). Many new developments as well as
changes in the user interface are not documented yet in the Help, which
means the Help is lagging with respect to the software. We are however
collecting these gaps in a list and looking for volunteers to write about.

What prevents us to evolve with the Help, and find something more easy
for volunteers to contribute?

* we must absolutely preserve its current contents and translations
process, people don't like useless rework.

* We don't have a replacing technology that can in a finger snap, make
all the legacy content available to a more user-friendly editing
process. My last blog post addresses the issue.
https://goo.gl/j3DVAG

There will be a workshop in Rome, at our LibreOffice Conference where we
will discuss these issues and more. I hope to meet all authors involved.

http://conference.libreoffice.org/

Kind regards




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