Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on the Olinuxino
Hi Eric, Am 12.01.2013 um 05:49 schrieb Eric H. Johnson: Hi all, This is really a response to the LinuxCNC for DIY 3D Printing thread without hijacking that thread. After seeing the success of a few other people in getting lcnc running on an Arm / Beaglebone, I thought I would take a shot at doing the same on the Olinuxino, with the intent of driving a 3D printer. I found the Olinuxino attractive because it has 512MB RAM and a 1Ghz processor and 3 I2C interfaces, as well as a companion 7 LCD or LCD touch display. It does not have an immediate interface to get to a Mesa type FPGA device, but I was hoping with a 1Ghz processor I would at least be able to directly drive 3 stepper motors. The board in fact just arrived today. Android built into the onboard NAND booted first time. While waiting for the board to arrive, I also built a custom kernel and a debian image and loaded that to a 4GB SD card. That, unfortunately was an abject failure. It would not boot, and worse, gave no error message. I just got a black screen. I am going to try a prebuilt stock debian image tomorrow. having been through this with two different ARM boards, let me tack on a suggestion together with a wish for good luck: - RTAI not being an option, an RT_PREEMPT being similar effort for worse results, the preferred RT OS would be Xenomai. That however depends on a bit of lowelevel code which isnt available in stock kernels, and replicating this for new hardware would be out of my skill range; I therefore would start the search for suitable SoC by filtering which architecture, or board, has a know-to-work Xenomai port. Even if RT_PREEMPT is easier to get running, you might lack the hires timer support. This list of commits between stock 3.2.21 and a working Xenomai kernel gives an idea of the task: https://github.com/roosen/linux/commits/v3.2.21_AM33xx_core-3.2 - the lesser chore is finding a closely matching package stream, or be prepared to build all of the prerequisites yourself. mazeltov, - Michael I did start a blog to document my progress here: http://lcncolinuxino.blogspot.com/ I will certainly have many questions (probably better posted to the developer list) as I get further along, but this seemed to be an appropriate time mention what I was up to. Regards, Eric -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Using 'clock' spring for dust cover on ball screw
On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 7:50 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote: On 12 January 2013 00:41, Ben Potter b...@bpuk.org wrote: The mill has a sheet of PU over the ways, which does a surprisingly effective job, I appreciate this doesn't work on lathes Something like this might: http://byerplastic.en.made-in-china.com/productimage/hoJQxTkwhdWV-2f0j00uZBTiMmjkRoO/China-Collapsible-Hose-Pipe-Respirator-Hose-for-Hospital-Equpipment.html -- atp If you use these, you may not care... ;-) http://byerplastic.en.made-in-china.com/product-group/xMfQYnpczUVm/Hookah-Hose-Shisha-Pipe-catalog-1.html Mark -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on the Olinuxino
After seeing the success of a few other people in getting lcnc running on an Arm / Beaglebone, I thought I would take a shot at doing the same on the Olinuxino, with the intent of driving a 3D printer. I found the Olinuxino attractive because it has 512MB RAM and a 1Ghz processor and 3 I2C interfaces, as well as a companion 7 LCD or LCD touch display. It does not have an immediate interface to get to a Mesa type FPGA device, but I was hoping with a 1Ghz processor I would at least be able to directly drive 3 stepper motors. Nice! This is the first project I've seen with an affordable and apparently good-looking functional touch screen solution. For various embedded projects I've been looking for a board that runs linuxcnc/HAL, with either on-board IO/Microcontroller/FPGA or the possibility to use a MESA card. A touch-screen would be used for UI. Raspberry Pi. + small, cheap - the processor is slow - barely able to boot a standard debian desktop. - There are some touchscreen hacks but nothing universally used good. - two SPI channels, one of which (maybe) goes to touch-screen use. ITX-sized x86 + stock standard x68 - 7 HDMI touch-screens exist (e.g. lilliput UK), but expensive (200 eur/gbp/usd). - expensive (board 100eur, processor 100eur, etc.) + PCI or PCI-E for MESA card For now I am slowly working on the x86 solution, mostly because it is tried tested, but these substantially cheaper ARM alternatives seem to be progressing... Does anyone know what electronics would go between the HDMI-connector of an x86-board, and the 55eur Olinuxino 7 touch-screen? Is it something one could DIY for less than 150eur which is roughly the price-difference to a 7 Lilliput HDMI-interfaced (USB for touch) screen ? Definitely keep us posted on the progress, and latency-numbers if/when you get a xenomai kernel going. Anders -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on the Olinuxino
On 01/11/2013 10:49 PM, Eric H. Johnson wrote: The board in fact just arrived today. Android built into the onboard NAND booted first time. While waiting for the board to arrive, I also built a custom kernel and a debian image and loaded that to a 4GB SD card. That, unfortunately was an abject failure. It would not boot, and worse, gave no error message. I just got a black screen. Does it have a serial port? That is the best way to debug boot failure on the Beagle Board and its cousins. 4GB is a bit tight for the full Linux system, but it can work. But, for real work on the system itself, you might want to go for an 8 GB card. As for attaching hardware, I built a board that puts a bidir parallel port on the Beagle Board's expansion header. It doesn't do native EPP mode, but that can be emulated in software. I have a rudimentary driver for my EPP-connected stepper/PWM controller that ran on the Beagle Board. (The SD card got corrupted, but I think I have the code backed up.) If the olinuxino also has an expansion header for GPIO pins, I could give you the schematic. The Beagle Board and XM have 1.8 V I/O levels, so it includes a level translator. Jon -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on the Olinuxino
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 1/12/2013 9:05 AM, Anders Wallin wrote: After seeing the success of a few other people in getting lcnc running on an Arm / Beaglebone, I thought I would take a shot at doing the same on the Olinuxino, with the intent of driving a 3D printer. I found the Olinuxino attractive because it has 512MB RAM and a 1Ghz processor and 3 I2C interfaces, as well as a companion 7 LCD or LCD touch display. It does not have an immediate interface to get to a Mesa type FPGA device, but I was hoping with a 1Ghz processor I would at least be able to directly drive 3 stepper motors. Nice! This is the first project I've seen with an affordable and apparently good-looking functional touch screen solution. For various embedded projects I've been looking for a board that runs linuxcnc/HAL, with either on-board IO/Microcontroller/FPGA or the possibility to use a MESA card. A touch-screen would be used for UI. The simplest way to do this would probably be to use two systems, one for LinuxCNC and the hardware, and an Android tablet/phone/whatever to run a remote touch-screen interface. For a single-platform ARM solution, TI has another AM335x reference design with a touch-screen that's pretty reasonably priced ($200): http://www.ti.com/tool/tmdssk3358 I'm currently using the 'Bone because: * It's cheaper to start, and I'm not to the point I need a display yet * It has pin headers for I/O expansion * The LCD interface on the AM335x uses the same pins as the PRU direct I/O lines. * I was able to buy a BeBoPr 'shield' which means I don't have to make any custom hardware to get through the first round of testing with an actual 3D printer. The pin muxing issue could probably be worked around somewhat, at the expense of (slightly) worse jitter on the PRU generated step/dir signals, but for initial testing the 'Bone is the easy solution. WARNING: Even with a 1 GHz CPU and Xenomai on the Olinuxino (or any similar development board), I don't think you're going to get latency numbers that work well for (Linux based) software stepgen. You'll probably need either hardware PWM generation (on or off chip), or something like the PRU available in the TI parts that can off-load the step generation from the Linux based servo thread. You could fairly easily do software stepgen with custom code running on the bare metal (ie: no OS), but that kind of defeats the idea of using LinuxCNC. - -- Charles Steinkuehler char...@steinkuehler.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlDxf4sACgkQLywbqEHdNFxveACg/pioLkTO4fhtGuzRHoy6zby7 v1MAoI+WVJ+dBK+lI8QLKhkc4TAbBAfX =j0l2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] EMC-Tetris
Good tempo, and a bonus 8 bit monochrome game theme song. :) 2013/1/11 Daniel Tenten i...@illrecords.de Hi! I used mid2cnc too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW0HdBgqheo Greets Daniel -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Eric Keller [mailto:eekel...@psu.edu] Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Januar 2013 02:22 An: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Betreff: Re: [Emc-users] EMC-Tetris there is a program called something like midi2gcode it's on that guy's utube page http://tim.cexx.org/?tag=cnc-music-midi-gcode-vector On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:56 PM, transis...@transistor-man.com wrote: On 2013-01-08 14:47, Sven Wesley wrote: http://youtu.be/MOW5Tooi6ds :) -- Master SQL Server Development, Administration, T-SQL, SSAS, SSIS, SSRS and more. Get SQL Server skills now (including 2012) with LearnDevNow - 200+ hours of step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only - learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122512 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users That is awesome! are you willing to post whatever you used to generate the gcode speed -tone mapping? fantastic work! -Dane -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122712 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Master HTML5, CSS3, ASP.NET, MVC, AJAX, Knockout.js, Web API and much more. Get web development skills now with LearnDevNow - 350+ hours of step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122812 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Master HTML5, CSS3, ASP.NET, MVC, AJAX, Knockout.js, Web API and much more. Get web development skills now with LearnDevNow - 350+ hours of step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122812 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for DIY 3D Printing
there seems to be quite a few people using linuxcnc for rep-raps.. Like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_Q0mGSz4ag maybe contact some of these users and see what gotchas there are... sam On 01/11/2013 08:25 PM, Ed Nisley wrote: TL;DR summary: advice needed on a LinuxCNC-based 3D printer project. The background... About a year ago, high-end DIY 3D printers outstripped the capabilities of Arduino-based controllers: the gymnastics required to stuff acceleration control into 8 bit microcontrollers appears to be a dead end. There's a notion of re-re-writing the Arduino firmware in 32 bit style for [ARM | Beagle | RPi | whatever] running on another generation of custom microcontroller boards. Rather than waiting for more of the same, I want to explore what LinuxCNC can enable for an advanced (albeit Cartesian) DIY 3D printer, starting with a solid motion-control foundation plus all the other features LinuxCNC provides, the ones that would require serious firmware development for Arduino-based code. For example... Hard real time motion control, rather than interrupt-based motor handlers that go awry when userland code inadvertently disables interrupts to bit-bang an I2C peripheral. Userland scripting, extensible language features, a G-Code dialect with loops / branching / subroutines, stuff like that. Probing the build platform to correct for for height variation and misalignment: probekins. I think a HAL-based extruder model that could include second- and third-order effects should provide better control than a simple linear/angular axis, particularly for a printer with multiple extruders. The plasma torch controller modules seem like good starting points. Similarly, ladder logic offers interesting possibilities for an extruder tool changer. LinuxCNC offers a *much* better UI, with devices that aren't teleported from 1990. I want to get a Touchy interface running early, just to show it off, plus the usual gamepad jogging and suchlike. Network-aware capabilities right out of the box, a real operating system, and enough compute power storage to make everything work. Plus all the topics I can barely pronounce when you folks discuss using them on your industrial machinery. The hardware plan... I'll start with a stock Makergear M2, which seems to be the most solid and well-designed DIY printer currently available. I'd prefer an enclosure to stabilize the ambient temperature, but that's basically a big box. Once the stock M2 works well enough, replace its RAMBo controller with Mesa 5i25 + 7i76. The 7i76 has enough robust digital outputs to drive SSRs for heaters and whatnot, with HAL components closing the temperature loops. The thermal time constants seem long enough to not require high-frequency PWM proportional control, which should simplify things. It also has sufficient digital inputs for home switches, probe contacts, and stuff like that. However, the printer controller also needs multi-channel thermocouple inputs, because thermistors seem underqualified for long-term measurements at 200+ C. I'd like to use a Mesa 7i87 for analog input, but it appears unsupported by the HostMot2 driver: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Mesa_Cards An alternative might be some Arduino love with this shield, although four channels seems limiting: http://www.mlgp-llc.com/arduino/public/arduino-pcb.html The Mesa 7i32 stepper driver board doesn't connect to the 5i25 at all. I don't know whether a Gecko G540 4 channel board (which is one axis shy of what I want) would make more sense than a quintet of M542H boards hot from the usual eBay vendor, but, for sure, blowing a single-channel board would be much less painful than taking out the Gecko. Although I have some of those tiny Pololu drivers, I think they're underqualified for this job. I'd love to be proven wrong. The goal is to produce a 3D printer with a contemporary control system that's easily extensible and isn't constrained by the quirks of DIY 3D history. Eventually, I want to tinker with better printer mechanics, in particular extruders, but the M2 should suffice for much of the proof-of-concept work. I have the attention of a guy who knows his way around the innards of the latest accelerated-motion-control Arduino firmware. I'll get my M2 running to show it's possible, then poke around at system improvements, after which he can build a similar setup and begin doing wonderful things. What I need... Guidance around my blind spots! F'r instance, I'm sure I've missed a hardware gotcha. Are there more practical ways to drive five stepper axes, get a bunch of digital I/O, and read thermocouples? Although I'm generally a big fan of lashing up surplus parts in my shop, I want to do this with reasonably standard hardware, so as to simplify building the next one. It's coming out of my pocket, however: the sky is *not* the budgetary limit. I'll surely have a
Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on the Olinuxino
Re getting the Olimex screen working... it looks like its just a vanilla LVDS panel.. so you just need one of the many LVDS-HDMI driver boards from ebay and the like.. basically look around and you'll find a few people on sites selling LVDS-HDMI controller boards or converters... basically you need the board that takes HDMI in from your system, converts it to the 'native' format of LVDS and drives the coloumns etc. To interact with the 'touch' side - you again need a tiny dongle that converts it to a USB HID device... Rough estimates would see you have both boards for $40... so yes, you should be able to use the Olimex panel with your current setup + the converter boards for display (LVDS) and touch (which becomes a USB HID mouse)... Bringing it all in still cost effectively.. On 13 January 2013 02:05, Anders Wallin anders.e.e.wal...@gmail.com wrote: After seeing the success of a few other people in getting lcnc running on an Arm / Beaglebone, I thought I would take a shot at doing the same on the Olinuxino, with the intent of driving a 3D printer. I found the Olinuxino attractive because it has 512MB RAM and a 1Ghz processor and 3 I2C interfaces, as well as a companion 7 LCD or LCD touch display. It does not have an immediate interface to get to a Mesa type FPGA device, but I was hoping with a 1Ghz processor I would at least be able to directly drive 3 stepper motors. Nice! This is the first project I've seen with an affordable and apparently good-looking functional touch screen solution. For various embedded projects I've been looking for a board that runs linuxcnc/HAL, with either on-board IO/Microcontroller/FPGA or the possibility to use a MESA card. A touch-screen would be used for UI. Raspberry Pi. + small, cheap - the processor is slow - barely able to boot a standard debian desktop. - There are some touchscreen hacks but nothing universally used good. - two SPI channels, one of which (maybe) goes to touch-screen use. ITX-sized x86 + stock standard x68 - 7 HDMI touch-screens exist (e.g. lilliput UK), but expensive (200 eur/gbp/usd). - expensive (board 100eur, processor 100eur, etc.) + PCI or PCI-E for MESA card For now I am slowly working on the x86 solution, mostly because it is tried tested, but these substantially cheaper ARM alternatives seem to be progressing... Does anyone know what electronics would go between the HDMI-connector of an x86-board, and the 55eur Olinuxino 7 touch-screen? Is it something one could DIY for less than 150eur which is roughly the price-difference to a 7 Lilliput HDMI-interfaced (USB for touch) screen ? Definitely keep us posted on the progress, and latency-numbers if/when you get a xenomai kernel going. Anders -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. SALE $99.99 this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_122912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_123012 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on the Olinuxino
Jon, It has what it calls a serial port, which in fact goes to a USB. There are then some drivers (Windows only) which apparently allow communicating with it as a serial device. Something is not working in my setup for these drivers. I got the drivers installed, and three external drives show up when the board is plugged in, but I cannot view any of them and nothing shows up in hyperterminal. But more importantly, a USB device is only recognized when I boot to Android. If I boot to the SD I get nothing, not even the bing when a USB device is detected. Further, I have now tried three different SD cards. Under Android, when I insert any one of them it gives me a damaged SD error. I initially thought this might be because Android does not recognize the ext3 / ext4 format, but I get the same error when I insert a 32GB SD that I regularly use in my Android tablet. The manual does say: We have tested a number of microSD cards on the OLinuXino boards and all of them worked fine regardless manufacturer or capacity. However, keep in mind that some of the lower quality microSD cards might draw too much current from the slot which might cause power-state problems. If you suspect the microSD card is causing problems please try using another one of better quality for better results. I picked up a second 4GB SD today, unfortunately Best Buy only seems to carry PNY, so both 4GB SDs are PNYs. The 32 GB SD is Transcend. I have a class 10 32GB SD on order, but it just shipped Friday. I suppose there is an outside chance that it is a power supply problem. The power supply I intend to use has not arrived, so I have been using a combination of USB ports from a PC and a high power USB power supply. The stand-alone USB power supply is rated at 2.1A at 5V. The manual does say that for full operation, including the LCD display, the requirements are 6-16VDC at 1A. As for I/O, I am still working out what will be available for usable GPIO. It looks like most of it is available on one of the 40 pin connectors, the other 40 pin connector is for the LCD / Touch screen. The complete manual is here: https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A13/A13-OLinuXino/resources/A13-OL INUXINO.pdf Regards, Eric Does it have a serial port? That is the best way to debug boot failure on the Beagle Board and its cousins. 4GB is a bit tight for the full Linux system, but it can work. But, for real work on the system itself, you might want to go for an 8 GB card. As for attaching hardware, I built a board that puts a bidir parallel port on the Beagle Board's expansion header. It doesn't do native EPP mode, but that can be emulated in software. I have a rudimentary driver for my EPP-connected stepper/PWM controller that ran on the Beagle Board. (The SD card got corrupted, but I think I have the code backed up.) If the olinuxino also has an expansion header for GPIO pins, I could give you the schematic. The Beagle Board and XM have 1.8 V I/O levels, so it includes a level translator. -- Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only -- learn more at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnmore_123012 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
