Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual --2
On Tue, 2012-02-28 at 14:28 +, Stuart Buchanan wrote: The main thrust of your proposal is to change the current process, which can broadly be described as: Latex - PDF/HTML to one where you have Wiki - HTML AFAICT , we gain: - easier editing for those not familiar with Latex - probably more contribution as it's easier to edit - cross-referencing between completely separate documents But we lose - the ability to produce a nice hardcopy manual, - real control over the content - anyone can edit the source. - proper version control (how do you differentiate between what is relevant to 2.6.0 and 2.4.0?) etc.. Stuart, thank you very much for the detailed response to my proposal - and I certainly will revisit those items again in the near future. But since my first proposal, there are some new developments popping up, which I need to evaluate first in more detail: 1) I believe there is no harm when there is a German version in the WIKI - that will definitely not become the authoritative raw source - and thus may develop into a pure user-manual, written for and by users. Without Engineering being responsible for that (but of course they have the same privileges to change like any user). 2) George Patterson did a good job challenging me as devils advocate, but he also mentioned references to the new developments in Mediawiki's extensions. In the meantime I did some (theoretical) studies on those and it seems that with http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Collection and http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:PDF_Writer we actually can - create the Manual in small pieces (== unique wiki pages) - Collect any wanted wiki-pages in a Book, still inside the wiki - convert that into a PDF -- including page-numbers and a real Index at the and! In addition each user could print that book any time using e.g. http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikis_Go_Printable and http://pediapress.com/ for himself. Of course he also has to pay for himself -- that seems to amount to about 20$ for 200 pages, inclusive binding, hardcover, etc. Wouldn't that be a nice Xmas-present for FGFS-freaks?) So far the theories -- I will try to challenge that with the German Manual. I suggest to wait for the results of that test and then revisit the opportunities we have. I hope that is acceptable for all of us - again: I will not touch the authoritative raw source. Thanks and regards joe -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Hi Jorg, Firstly, apologies for being so late to comment. Too many other things going on, and not enough time to think about and comment properly. The main thrust of your proposal is to change the current process, which can broadly be described as: Latex - PDF/HTML to one where you have Wiki - HTML AFAICT , we gain: - easier editing for those not familiar with Latex - probably more contribution as it's easier to edit - cross-referencing between completely separate documents But we lose - the ability to produce a nice hardcopy manual, - real control over the content - anyone can edit the source. - proper version control (how do you differentiate between what is relevant to 2.6.0 and 2.4.0?) I'm afraid I don't see this as a step forward. Further comments below. On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Jörg Emmerich wrote: I admit: Also I still read my Newspaper in hardcopy during breakfast - but for more details I follow the advise (or QR-code) inside the daily Newspapers or TV-news to look up details on their homepage. And surely a professional designer must study lots of hardcopy books (and pay lots of money for those!) - but I do not believe that nowadays any PC-USER of a hobby-product (may he be high or low skilled) will go to a Public- or University-Library for details! (Remember: We talk about a getstart for a hobby - not a Masters-Degree in...). The name getstart.pdf is historical. The Manual is intended to be an definitive guide to the entire simulator. IMO there is certainly space for a new Getting Started guide, probably as a new chapter in the existing Manual, though it could be elsewhere. And I am pretty sure that not many users of FlightGear print the getstart.pdf - and they will do so even less in the future! And even if it gets printed, it is printed on standard PC-Printers! Or can I buy that book anywhere with a superior Print-Quality? And do I get a printed update for new versions? (Now every 6 month?) It would be pretty straightforward to use cafepress or one of the many print-on-demand websites to provide a proper printed manual. I looked into this a couple of years ago, but never actually got as far as printing a copy. Might be worth looking into again. Did you notice that most products you buy today, do not have a real User-Manual any more - but tell you an Internet-Address to look it up? (A modern way to avoid the law to provide those manuals in the national language!) As pointed out by Martin, we shouldn't be aiming for the lowest common denominator. FlightGear is targetted as a professional product, even if it's created by volunteers and mainly used by hobbyists. Having good, definitive, documentation is part of that. Anyhow: Did you ever try e.g. (with Firefox 10.0.2) http://wiki.flightgear.org/Howto:_Using_QGIS_and_satellite_pictures: -- mouse-click File -- Print (or Print Review) and compare that to the getstart.pdf? Do you see a significant difference in printing/reading quality? Yes. The pdf file has far better rendering of characters, sentences and paragraphs, and the general layout is far superior and easier to read. I certainly couldn't read tens of pages of printed HTML, but I could happily read the equivalent rendering from PDF. I would support the need for an authoritative raw source - if there is the manpower to maintain it! - over decades? It surely would be a good reference for all upcoming versions. We already have an authoritative raw source (Latex), and there has been sufficient manpower to maintain it for many years. It keeps up with the major changes with each release. Contributions are always welcome, and it can certainly be improved. I admit: Page-Referencing (and especially the old style Indexing) is a problem for HTML -- if reading hardcopy! In the reverse it is impossible to reference between multiple PDF-documents to unique text-positions! So neither approach is the Golden Egg in a mixed environment. I tried to compromise for that with: Smaller books (so headers are enough - no real need for page-numbers). You are conflating multiple issues here. The Manual is already available in HTML format, and already easily references between unique text positions. The Manual is also currently provided in a single PDF, so there is no need to reference between different unique text positions in different PDF files. I understand that you'd like to split the Getting Started Guide away from The Manual, which is what drives the question of being able to cross-reference between different separate documents. Your solution appears to be to split it into different HTML files, linking between the two. Exactly the same result can be provided by creating the Getting Started Guide as a separate section of The Manual. The HTML version would be able to cross-reference between the two parts. The PDF file would contain both the Getting Started Guide and The Manual, however that's just a bonus, as a PDF isn't something that's
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Hi Stuart, thanks a lot for taking the time to write such an elaborate statement ! Stuart Buchanan wrote: At present this is handled by changes being emailed to Martin or myself [...] or via merge request on Gitorious ;-) Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
I was surprised that this shift in Paradigms has such a big handicap to be considered for future developments. And if you believe you are old-fashioned, how about a 70 year old guy that started in Computer Development in 1970, and whose big boss predicted: I think there is a world market for maybe five computers. (Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943!) You may have some more laughs on http://www.pcworld.com/article/155984/the_7_worst_tech_predictions_of_all_time.html). Thus let me comment on the most controversial replies out of my sight: I admit: Also I still read my Newspaper in hardcopy during breakfast - but for more details I follow the advise (or QR-code) inside the daily Newspapers or TV-news to look up details on their homepage. And surely a professional designer must study lots of hardcopy books (and pay lots of money for those!) - but I do not believe that nowadays any PC-USER of a hobby-product (may he be high or low skilled) will go to a Public- or University-Library for details! (Remember: We talk about a getstart for a hobby - not a Masters-Degree in...). And I am pretty sure that not many users of FlightGear print the getstart.pdf - and they will do so even less in the future! And even if it gets printed, it is printed on standard PC-Printers! Or can I buy that book anywhere with a superior Print-Quality? And do I get a printed update for new versions? (Now every 6 month?) Did you notice that most products you buy today, do not have a real User-Manual any more - but tell you an Internet-Address to look it up? (A modern way to avoid the law to provide those manuals in the national language!) Anyhow: Did you ever try e.g. (with Firefox 10.0.2) http://wiki.flightgear.org/Howto:_Using_QGIS_and_satellite_pictures: -- mouse-click File -- Print (or Print Review) and compare that to the getstart.pdf? Do you see a significant difference in printing/reading quality? I would support the need for an authoritative raw source - if there is the manpower to maintain it! - over decades? It surely would be a good reference for all upcoming versions. I admit: Page-Referencing (and especially the old style Indexing) is a problem for HTML -- if reading hardcopy! In the reverse it is impossible to reference between multiple PDF-documents to unique text-positions! So neither approach is the Golden Egg in a mixed environment. I tried to compromise for that with: Smaller books (so headers are enough - no real need for page-numbers). The amount of cross-referencing may have some negative side effects, when reading top to bottom and jumping to each and every reference - but surely it is extremely positive having the possibility to jump to more details (when wanted/needed) and directly return to the place you were -- all of that with two mouse-clicks instead of wetting your fingers and search through lots of paper-pages!). In addition those smaller books with a lot of referencing ensure that each subject needs to be described only in one chapter - thus changes have to be updated only once - and not in several books and/or chapters. Especially the aspect of controlling changes promotes the use of WIKI, because whoever is concerned can set a mark to be notified about any changes made by anybody - and can delete or correct changes made -- see the history options in the FGFS-wiki. So you may have lots of observers! To the end: I was surprised not seeing any comments to the problem of multi-lingual support - which was the starting point for this controversial work of mine. I am sure nobody explicitly wants to restrict FlightGear just to people being able to read and write English. But I guess this point is an unsolved question for todays getstart.pdf. So I guess there is no problem if I just input my German version into the FGFS-WIKI - not as an authoritative raw source - but hoping it may help some other Tongues for their translations. joe -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Jörg Emmerich wrote: Did you notice that most products you buy today, do not have a real User-Manual any more - but tell you an Internet-Address to look it up? Yup, that's really bad style and I still haven't given up the hope that FlightGear is capable of doing better. Who knows Guess why O'Reilly is selling so many books despite the fact that there's plenty of online documentation on almost every topic they cover - with probably the sole exception being their animal short reference, I assume ;-) Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Am 21.02.12 01:16, schrieb HB-GRAL: i.e. in first section Installation: http://www.flightgear.org/cvs.html http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/apasim.html http://www.flightgear.org/cdrom/ http://www.terragear.org/ http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/index.shtml (huh!) I sent a merge request for changing this 5 links in getstart. https://www.gitorious.org/fg/getstart/merge_requests/1 Cheers, Yves -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
HB-GRAL wrote: What is the difference between the Index and the Index at bottom of contents ? ;-) I'm not sure which index you mean by the Index which is not at the bottom will check. Anyhow, I know there are at least two different Indexes and I haven't determined how to get rid of the one I don't want. Maybe there is a simple tool to check all links in the document? A lot of links goes to nowhere. Thanks for fixing, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Gijs de Rooy wrote: Martin wrote: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart/ I'm sure there's a link somewhere on The Wiki (if Hellosimon didn't carry out his threat of moving it into the attic ;-) It's right there, on the MAIN PAGE of the wiki! :D http://wiki.flightgear.org/Main_Page Ha, it's so low-profile, I didn't notice :-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
HB-GRAL wrote: Ok, to follow this I checked all links manually tonight, hope this helps to correct all 404 or outdated ones in the manual when someone finds the time for this : Cool ! phew, quite a lot, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Am 21.02.12 17:41, schrieb HB-GRAL: Am 21.02.12 01:16, schrieb HB-GRAL: i.e. in first section Installation: http://www.flightgear.org/cvs.html http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/apasim.html http://www.flightgear.org/cdrom/ http://www.terragear.org/ http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/index.shtml (huh!) I sent a merge request for changing this 5 links in getstart. https://www.gitorious.org/fg/getstart/merge_requests/1 Cheers, Yves Sent a second request, all sections fixed I hope, without Appendix. Cheers, Y. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Congratulation to all of you having worked hard on getting the 2.6 out. So pls let me come back to my proposal for a different style of the FGFS-Manual. For several month now I made many tests with LaTeX, LyX, basic PDF, etc. - but was not able to achieve with those what I am proposing: -- splitting up the ever growing pdf-file getstart into smaller books, totaling a growing contents with increasing referencing between specialized chapters. Thus achieving a BASE from which users can develop their skills. -- make use of the modern art of on-line reading/studying! e.g.: Jumping between the books to any given place inside and outside the book! Thus achieving the oposit of todays Indexing. Not searching in the Index to find something in the book (that you can do much more efficient with the standard on-line Find-utilities) - but jumping from any place inside the books to other places for advanced and/or common explanations/informations. Thus avoiding the need of describing many things many times (and forget to change many places when a change is needed!). Why shouldn't we, as the promoters of the most modern style of designing, not also make use of the most modern style of reading/studying/updating manuals, dictionaries, newspapers, etc.? -- stimulate translations! Consider that this Manual will not be used just for highly educated professionals that mostly do speak English - but for common users of all Nationalities, all stages in education, etc. We definitely do need to attract those to participate. As we accept that any professional can participate in the design, we should also trust our users to generate and maintain their manuals by themselves! FGFS, FGFS-wiki, Wikipedia, Linux, etc. etc. -- they all proved that it works! -- Use common tools. Most kids today learn how to generate a Homepage and use html - while LaTeX (and similar) needs some more unique skills/environments/procedures. It is streamlined for the use in publishing houses/departments - with the need for a so called corporate identity. But that identity is also achievable today via HTML (CSS) -- see e.g. the articles inside todays FGFS-wiki! -- Avoid the dependency on uniquely skilled persons: What happens when the private priorities of those few (and thus often overloaded volunteers) will change? In addition: A detailed proofreading of todays getstart takes weeks - while thousands of users will find errors and improvements without any scheduled task - just by using it! But then an administrative procedure for corrective actions might not really convince them to become active! Please let me know if you have an issue with that - otherwise I will start to setup FGFS-wiki versions. Then we may have two versions - which I believe could develop into different flavors: One more users-taste and one more engineering-needs. I see my personal preferences more on the user/customer aspects - and hope the engineering environment forgives me for that! If you are interested to know more about the WIKI pros/cons, I suggest: http://wikieducator.org/Wikieducator_tutorial/What_is_a_wiki/Advantages_and_disadvantages See also my current HTML-version on http://www.emmerich-j.de/S6.html (having now about 1000 hits per month after 2 month on-line). rgds joe -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Why do i feel that this has been discussed multiple times before and the end result was to stick with the status quo... but anyway see below. Below I'm playing devils advocate a little bit. On 20 February 2012 20:17, Jörg Emmerich j-emmer...@online.de wrote: Congratulation to all of you having worked hard on getting the 2.6 out. So pls let me come back to my proposal for a different style of the FGFS-Manual. For several month now I made many tests with LaTeX, LyX, basic PDF, etc. - but was not able to achieve with those what I am proposing: -- splitting up the ever growing pdf-file getstart into smaller books, totaling a growing contents with increasing referencing between specialized chapters. Thus achieving a BASE from which users can develop their skills. Perhaps the probably with the Getting Started manual is more of a naming issue as it's more of a warts and all manual. -- make use of the modern art of on-line reading/studying! e.g.: Jumping between the books to any given place inside and outside the book! Thus achieving the oposit of todays Indexing. Not searching in the Index to find something in the book (that you can do much more efficient with the standard on-line Find-utilities) - but jumping from any place inside the books to other places for advanced and/or common explanations/informations. Thus avoiding the need of describing many things many times (and forget to change many places when a change is needed!). Why shouldn't we, as the promoters of the most modern style of designing, not also make use of the most modern style of reading/studying/updating manuals, dictionaries, newspapers, etc.? Manuals, dictionaries and newspapers are generally read in hard copy with the markup being very obscure such as InDesign markup. -- stimulate translations! Consider that this Manual will not be used just for highly educated professionals that mostly do speak English - but for common users of all Nationalities, all stages in education, etc. We definitely do need to attract those to participate. As we accept that any professional can participate in the design, we should also trust our users to generate and maintain their manuals by themselves! FGFS, FGFS-wiki, Wikipedia, Linux, etc. etc. -- they all proved that it works! If we were to use a Mediawiki such as the FlightGear wiki as the authoritative raw source for the PDF versions of the manual, we will need to ensure the following extensions are installed and enabled :- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:PDF_Writer and http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Collection I'm not sure how it would handle page number references between subsections and other books. And you still need to ensure that all books are generated when content has changed. -- Use common tools. Most kids today learn how to generate a Homepage and use html - while LaTeX (and similar) needs some more unique skills/environments/procedures. It is streamlined for the use in publishing houses/departments - with the need for a so called corporate identity. But that identity is also achievable today via HTML (CSS) -- see e.g. the articles inside todays FGFS-wiki! The fgfs wiki is not html... but wiki markup rendered as html. Unanswered questions; 1. what about the issue of pulling the individual pages together to form a book? 2. How do you add a reference to another page and have it relevant when printed? -- Avoid the dependency on uniquely skilled persons: What happens when the private priorities of those few (and thus often overloaded volunteers) will change? In addition: A detailed proofreading of todays getstart takes weeks - while thousands of users will find errors and improvements without any scheduled task - just by using it! But then an administrative procedure for corrective actions might not really convince them to become active! Changing toolsets will not remove the need to proof read the result for errors such as wiki vandalism and broken references. Please let me know if you have an issue with that - otherwise I will start to setup FGFS-wiki versions. Then we may have two versions - which I believe could develop into different flavors: One more users-taste and one more engineering-needs. I see my personal preferences more on the user/customer aspects - and hope the engineering environment forgives me for that! If you are interested to know more about the WIKI pros/cons, I suggest: http://wikieducator.org/Wikieducator_tutorial/What_is_a_wiki/Advantages_and_disadvantages See also my current HTML-version on http://www.emmerich-j.de/S6.html (having now about 1000 hits per month after 2 month on-line). Sure. Though a long html page can become ugly when printed to hard copy due to inappropriate pagination, image sizes, word wrapping, etc. At the moment, I don't have the time to investigate tools mentioned above, but being able to order an up to date book (dead tree version) from an on-demand printer
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
As we accept that any professional can participate in the design, we should also trust our users to generate and maintain their manuals by themselves! FGFS, FGFS-wiki, Wikipedia, Linux, etc. etc. -- they all proved that it works! Here's an actual user commenting on the state of the Wiki: http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17t=15215p=149638#p149514 (he thinks it doesn't work). No idea what user you have been talking to. I think the FG wiki is a great place to store ideas, dump obscure technical instructions for specialists or document some special features - but I certainly would *not* advise any new user to learn how FGFS works with anything styled like our Wiki. I also have issues with Wikipedia - it always seems to move down to the lowest common denominator of all who want to edit an article. Basically, an article isn't bad as such, but whenever I compare something on Wikipedia with something a selected group of specialists has written, Wikipedia scores rather low. So usually I use Wikipedia just as index to find what I am really looking for. Why shouldn't we, as the promoters of the most modern style of designing, not also make use of the most modern style of reading/studying/updating manuals, dictionaries, newspapers, etc.? Call me old-fashioned, but I read my newspaper starting at the beginning of an article and ending at the end. Jumping cross references is very bad for focusing attention and just generates a lot of noise which makes it difficult for the information content to come through efficiently. Most kids today learn how to generate a Homepage and use html - while LaTeX (and similar) needs some more unique skills/environments/procedures. It is streamlined for the use in publishing houses/departments - with the need for a so called corporate identity. It seems you still don't understand what LaTeX is for. You can easily turn LaTeX into both html and a printed book automatically - but you can't ever turn html back into anything resembling a printed book withd ecent layout without tons of manual input. Please let me know if you have an issue with that - otherwise I will start to setup FGFS-wiki versions. I think you can set up anything on the Wiki which you like - it just doesn't remove the need to have 'The Manual' if you want to offer a serious and structured documentation. My 2 cents anyway. * Thorsten -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Am 20.02.12 11:49, schrieb thorsten.i.r...@jyu.fi: It seems you still don't understand what LaTeX is for. You can easily turn LaTeX into both html and a printed book automatically - but you can't ever turn html back into anything resembling a printed book withd ecent layout without tons of manual input. Hi Thorsten What tools can be used to convert i.E. getstart.tex into html properly ? What can you recommend? Did you ever try to convert FG .tex files into html with tools you know ? I am looking for the right tool, because I like to integrate some parts of the docs into a FGx Help Browser (offline). Cheers, Yves -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
HB-GRAL wrote: What tools can be used to convert i.E. getstart.tex into html properly ? What can you recommend? Did you ever try to convert FG .tex files into html with tools you know ? Actually we're doing this for almost a decade now. Michael Basler started using TeX4ht on Windows and I'm pursuing the compilation step into the publicly available versions still using the same tool (but on Linux) since he left a couple of years ago. The current version of The FlightGear Manual as HTML is available here: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart/ I'm sure there's a link somewhere on The Wiki (if Hellosimon didn't carry out his threat of moving it into the attic ;-) An ugly but functional Bash script is available in the getstart GIT repository. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Am 20.02.12 12:24, schrieb Martin Spott: HB-GRAL wrote: What tools can be used to convert i.E. getstart.tex into html properly ? What can you recommend? Did you ever try to convert FG .tex files into html with tools you know ? Actually we're doing this for almost a decade now. Michael Basler started using TeX4ht on Windows and I'm pursuing the compilation step into the publicly available versions still using the same tool (but on Linux) since he left a couple of years ago. The current version of The FlightGear Manual as HTML is available here: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart/ I'm sure there's a link somewhere on The Wiki (if Hellosimon didn't carry out his threat of moving it into the attic ;-) An ugly but functional Bash script is available in the getstart GIT repository. Cheers, Martin. Hi Martin I used TeX4ht too on OSX, but some of the .tex files gives errors and conversion is cancelled. I am investigating. I tried latex2html too, but this turned into something out of html. I want to integrate the manuals into the application (a own FGx help browser, used for FGx help too), without editing any part, just want to integrate the latest version available and shipped with recent FG. (oh, I can see TeX4ht can also produce DocBooks ...). I can integrate online help (wiki) too with URLs, but I don’t want to force users to have an online connection to read help, and the PDF in fgdata is a no-go here for the help system. Anyway, I will find a solution to make small junks available to get some sort of quick inline help. Thanks, Yves -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Martin wrote: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart/ I'm sure there's a link somewhere on The Wiki (if Hellosimon didn't carry out his threat of moving it into the attic ;-) It's right there, on the MAIN PAGE of the wiki! :D http://wiki.flightgear.org/Main_Page -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Am 20.02.12 19:10, schrieb Gijs de Rooy: Martin wrote: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart/ I'm sure there's a link somewhere on The Wiki (if Hellosimon didn't carry out his threat of moving it into the attic ;-) It's right there, on the MAIN PAGE of the wiki! :D http://wiki.flightgear.org/Main_Page Hi Gijs http://wiki.flightgear.org/FlightGear_Manual - http://www.flightgear.org/Docs/getstart/getstart.html The wiki links to a two years old manual ? Cheers, Yves -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Yves wrote: The wiki links to a two years old manual ? Not anymore :D -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Am 20.02.12 12:24, schrieb Martin Spott: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart/ Hi Martin What is the difference between the Index and the Index at bottom of contents ? ;-) Maybe there is a simple tool to check all links in the document? A lot of links goes to nowhere. i.e. in first section Installation: http://www.flightgear.org/cvs.html http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/apasim.html http://www.flightgear.org/cdrom/ http://www.terragear.org/ http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/index.shtml (huh!) (I really want to help to improve but unfortunately there is no time left here at the moment.) Cheers, Yves -- Try before you buy = See our experts in action! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-dev2 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] New styled FGFS--Manual
Am 20.02.12 22:46, schrieb HB-GRAL: Am 20.02.12 12:24, schrieb Martin Spott: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/getstart/ Hi Martin What is the difference between the Index and the Index at bottom of contents ? ;-) Maybe there is a simple tool to check all links in the document? A lot of links goes to nowhere. i.e. in first section Installation: http://www.flightgear.org/cvs.html http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/m-selig/apasim.html http://www.flightgear.org/cdrom/ http://www.terragear.org/ http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/index.shtml (huh!) Ok, to follow this I checked all links manually tonight, hope this helps to correct all 404 or outdated ones in the manual when someone finds the time for this : -- Section 5.2.4 http://wiki.flightgear.org/flightgear_wiki/index.php?title=A-4F_Skyhawk_Operations_Manual Section 6.3 http://www.monmouth.com/~jsd/how/htm/title.html Section 7.1 http://www.pilotfriend.com/flight_training/new_site/aerodynamics/aircraft%20controls.htm http://www.flightgear.org/Docs/getstart/getstart.html (?) http://www.avsim.com/mike/mickey_site/ppilot/ppilot_faq/pp_cessnas.html http://www.ig-wilson.com/index.php?f16land Section 7.13.1 http://www.alioth.net/flying/pa28-161/index.html http://faaflyingclub.homestead.com/files/Warrior_Checklist.pdf Section 9.5 http://bathursted.ccnb.nb.ca/vatcan/fir/moncton/WeeklyTopics/WeeklyTopicIntro.html (?) Appendix A/B (maybe all appendix titles, link!) see A: Missed approach: If anything refuses to work A.4 ftp://www.flightgear.org/pub/flightgear/Source/ (requires autorisation) B.1 http://edc.usgs.gov/geodata/ http://edcdaac.usgs.gov/gtopo30/gtopo30.html, B 1.1 http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/world-scenery.html B.2 http://www.a1freesoundeffects.com/ http://www1.las.es/~amil/ssystem/ http://www.geocities.com/pmb.geo/flusi.htm http://www.rockfish.net/fg/ (?) http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/mikehill/home.htm http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt/fgfs/Docs/Autopilot/AltitudeHold/AltitudeHold.html http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt/ http://www.welcome.to/pausch/ http://www.zedley.com/Philip/ http://people.a2000.nl/dtals/ http://edc.usgs.gov/geodata/ http://www.woodsoup.org/projs/ORKiD/fgfs.htm http://www.woodsoup.org/projs/ORKiD/cygwin.htm http://www.g-point.com/xpcity/esp/ [EOF] Cheers, Yves -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
