Re: [lace] Lacemaking machines

[Brenda Paternoster]

The machines which sought to imitate bobbin lace date back to the early 1800s
and I think the one I saw in Nottingham some years ago was mid-late 1800s.

The frame knitting machines, one of which I saw demonstrated at G H Hurt in
Nottingham, do date back to the 1600s, they were designed to knit stockings
rather than make lace.

For anyone interested in the history of machine lace I thoroughly recommend
the Pat Earnshaw books.

Brenda

>
>
> Yes, a number of Arachne members saw the Nottingham stockinette machines
> from the 17th or 18th C (I'm not sure if the ones we saw went back to the
> 1600's -- I find that hard to believe in hindsight), including ones still
> working. I have a really lovely shawl knit on one of those machines; quite
> a few other Arachnids bought knitted items.

Brenda Paternoster
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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

Knox’s and J Harris & Sons were discontinued many years ago, as were DMC
linen threads and the finer C  I thought that the best chance of still
getting a fine linen thread would be from Bart and Francis, but their 130/2
isn’t showing on their website.  Several years ago they were looking at
producing a very fine linen, but it doesn’t appear to have been a successful
project.

Unfortunately I don’t think there is anyone now spinning very fine linen so
maybe your best chance of finding some will be vintage thread from estate
sales or eBay and hope that it has been stored in cool but not over dry
conditions.

It might be worth contacting Bart and Francis, they might have a bit stashed
away somewhere!  Although Francis’s written English tends to follow
Flemish/Dutch spelling his spoke English is excellent and he will certainly
understand an email written in English.

Brenda

> On 2 Nov 2020, at 00:25,  
wrote:
>
> Pulling out my Paternoster/6, I see the following linen threads are in
range:Bart & Francis 130/2, 34wpc; Bouc 110, 37wpc and 140, 46wpc; C 120, 37
wpc, 140, 46wpc; DMC Lin Floche150, 40wpc; DMC Lin pour Dentelles, 70, 40wpc;
Fresia 140/2, 36wpc; J Harris & Sons Pure Flax Lace Thread 140, 44wpc; Knox's
Dragon350, 52 wpc; Knox's Falcon Best 120, 39wpc, 140, 150, 160 to 42wpc.
That's all I can find in that range, and that's not a whole lot.  And I bet a
lot of these are discontinued.  If your heart is set on linen in this weight,
I'd shop in Europe, as Etsy's Provolace doesn't have anything remotely close.
Sorry about that.

Brenda Paternoster
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Re: [lace] Thread puzzle

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Lorri

Moravia 40/2 linen = 2S - 22 w/cm.  I measured Fresia 50/2 exactly the same.

Moravia 40/2 metallic = wrapped thread - 20 w/cm.
I measured Texlen Titano exactly he same, and both are/were Czech threads so
may actually have been the same thread differently branded.

Moravia 80/2 is a metallic  2S - 29 w/cm.
Texlen Metalux measured the same and Aurifil Brillo was 2Z - 30 w/cm

Brenda

>
> Does anyone know of substitute Threads for:   Morovia 40/2  and 80/2?
>
> TIA
> Lorri Ferguson
>
>

Brenda in Allhallows
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Re: [lace] re Find my past "free" ancestry site

[Brenda Paternoster]

With  Ancestry ,Find My Past, The Genealogist and any other websites with
census transcriptions you can report transcription errors (and there were
plenty of them down to poor handwriting, transcription by non-native/non-local
people and general lack of palaeography skills) but if they have chosen not to
transcribe occupation for a whole dataset they won’t add it.

Brenda

> On 18 Jul 2019, at 01:04,  
wrote:
>
>
> However I discovered that Occupation and county was not transcribed  into
> these two data bases of the census.  (1871, 1841)
>
> "IF" you have a subscription you can report this to them (see below)  I
will
> leave the matter with you to see if there is a kind soul with asubscption
> that might feel comfortable doing this.

Brenda in Allhallows
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Re: [lace] census records and definitions

[Brenda Paternoster]

The problem is that the time spent turning or whittling bobbins was very much
less than the time spent using them.  Then, as now, bobbins could be passed on
for generations and still be functional.

By the 1920s lacemaking was a dying skill but in the mid 19th century a lot of
the female population in that area listed their occupation as making lace but
their bobbins would probably have been by family members as a sideline, and
who would have listed their occupation as farm worker (Ag Lab) or fisherman or
whatever.

Brenda

> May of you will know that we have nothing more than two names that were
> recorded by Gertude Whiting as being maker  of Honiton lace bobbins.  They
> are  Mr Miller and Mr Goode.  They appear both to be Beer residents, though
> it is possible that Mr Millers mother married again (??)  I am guessing the
> Gertrude Whiting visited in the 1920s.

Brenda in Allhallows
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Re: [lace] Lizbeth thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Karen

> Can anyone tell me the wpc of Lizbeth sizes 10, 20 and 40 and the grid
> sizes I would need to use for each of them.


Handy Hands Lizbeth: 
10 = 13 w/cm - 5mm grid
20 = 17 w/cm - between 3mm-4mm grid
40 = 20 w/cm - 3mm grid


Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Bedfordshire lace

[Brenda Paternoster]

Tanne/cotona is designed as a machine embroidery thread and like all machine
threads it has a Z twist to suit the way sewing machines work.  If it causes
problems with the way you personally work BL the solution is to try and find S
twisted thread; most linens, cotton perle, cotton a broder etc.  Winding your
bobbins in the opposite direction, and thus lengthening them in the opposite
direction as you work might help or you might find it even worse than
constantly retwisting the thread!

Cordonnet Special is OK for BL if you want a a hard, crisp finish; ie table
mats etc.  It’s not good if you want the lace to drape softly, or for
anything that might be in contact with your skin!

Brenda


>  Madeira Cotona 30—I own too many spools—none white—but it seems to
un-ply itself while working. It made my lace (a different pattern) look
scraggly & it’s too fiddly to keep spinning all the bobbins because it comes
un-plied every other stitch. The only solution that came to mind is to wind
anti-clockwise. Are there any other suggestions to tame Cotona? While I hate
to give up on pretty thread, there’s no !
> reason to be miserable!  And of course my big question—what to do with so
many balls of Cordonnet Special, in multiple sizes? Egad, I don’t tat & I
rarely crochet! Is cordonnet suitable for any bobbin lace?

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Bedfordshire lace

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Susan

'Tatting thread' is DMC Special Dentelles 80 which is identical to Cordonnet
80 which is only a tiny smidgin finer than Cordonnet 70 - so in effect you did
use tatting thread.

The gimp thread in traditional Bedfordshire lace is a softer but round thread,
the difference in thickness to the main thread is less than in point ground or
torchon, but to keep the roundness of the thread you need a three ply, or even
a 4 ply.  Tanne, which is only 2 ply would not have been a particularly good
choice either.  A regular cotton sewing machine thread such as Sylko 50/3
(slightly finer) or King Tut 40/3 (slightly thicker) would be good, or if you
can find a cotton a broder as fine as size 45 or 50 even better.

Brenda
>
> The pattern calls for Tanne 30--I don't own any--so I substituted Cordonnet
Special 70. The lace is very textural with the cordonnet, not the smooth,
crisp appearance that I was anticipating. Did I use the wrong thread? Will
mangling help? Am I misinformed about how it should look when finished? I
elected not to use tatting cotton because I wanted traditional white.

Brenda in Allhallows

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[lace] DMC Natura Just cotton

[Brenda Paternoster]

Thank you to Beth for sending me a sample of DMC Natura Just cotton.
I have measured it as 2s/8S  5 wraps/cm

So it is the ‘Just Cotton’ version of Natura which I had seen before.

>From Ravelry and the (not very helpful) DMC website I have deduced that this
is more or less a 4 ply knitting yarn thickness.  Natura Medium is perhaps DK
or worsted weight and Natura XL is a super chunky weight.

For BL Natura Just Cotton would be suitable for a gimp in a heavy torchon, the
other two are likely to be too thick for BL unless the pricking and base
thread is VERY large scale.


Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Re: Aurifil Mako 80

[Brenda Paternoster]

Egyptian 80/2 = 50 w/cm
Egyptian 80/3 = 35 w/cm
Aurifil 80 = 43 w/cm

So a little finer than Egyptian 80/3 and a little thicker than Egyptian 80/2

Brenda
>
> Not sure where this fits but in Ulrike’s recent publication Hearts, she
uses it as Egyptian cotton80 equals aurifil 80.
> Dianne
>
>
>

Brenda in Allhallows

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[lace] Re: Aurifil Mako 80

[Brenda Paternoster]

I have recently received a sample of this thread - thank you Magda - and I
have measured it as 2Z - 43 wraps/cm

Brenda

>>
>> Hi Brenda!  Have you examined this thread?  Sincerely, Susan Hottle
>>
>

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Mystery thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

FFR is a brand name - Filature et Filteries Reunies - based in Aalst,
Belgium.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en=nl=http://www.ethesis.net/a
alst_textiel/deel_I/aalst_textiel_deel_I_2_g.htm=search


If the thread is fine (Bucks point weight) it will be cotton, if, weight wise,
it’s more like Special Dentelles (tatting cotton) it will be linen.  The
only FFR thread I have seen is linen 60/2.
Being on a plastic cone tells me that it’s a fairly modern thread, and
probably intended for use on overlock/serger sewing machines.

Brenda
>
> I have on an orange cone (true cone not cylinder) of slightly off white
thread
> that looks and feels like cotton.
> The cone is plastic and measures 4.5 in. or 11.5 mm. high.  Am I correct
that
> it is 80/2 cotton?
> There is a sticker inside the bottom reading:
>
> FFR Aalst
> 9052
> 80/2Wit Blanc
> ca 2500M
> Brillante
>
> Can you tell me any thing about it?

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Guttermans Threads

[Brenda Paternoster]

There are lots of different threads made by Gütermann.  The cotton threads
and the silk threads are fine for lacemaking so long as the thickness is
suitable for your pricking  (though most are Z twist to suit sewing machines
and a few lacemakers really prefer S twist thread on bobbins).  The polyesters
are OK if you expect the finished lace to get frequent laundering, although
lace made from polyester does have a ‘hard’ feel to it, and the metallics
are good for accents/gimps.

Amongst people who sew, Gütermann thread is generally reckoned to be as good
as any.
>
> Are Guttermans threads suitable for lacemaking?

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] wool replacement

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Sue

If looking at wool yarn I reckon that a general rule of thumb is:
I ply cobweb = 14-15 w/cm
2 ply lace = 9-10 w/cm
3 ply baby = 8 w/cm
4 ply/fingering = 7 w/cm
DK = 6 w/cm
Aran = 5 w/cm

I have measured DMC Natura as 2S/8S - 5 w/cm which would equate with Aran
weight knitting yarn, BUT
on looking at the DMC website, Ravelry and various sources I see that Natura
cotton comes in three different thicknesses, which certainly wasn’t made
clear to me when I received the original sample to measure.

DMC Natura Just Cotton = 4 ply weight.   2.5mm-3.5mm needles = 27 sts/34 rows
= 10cm x 10cm
DMC Natura Medium (and Natura Denim) = DK-Aran.  4.0mm-5.0mm needles, 18sts/24
rows = 10cm x 10cm
DMC Natura XL = Super Chunky.  6.0-7.0 needles, 12sts/17 rows = 10cm x 10cm

I can’t now be certain!!  but it’s likely that I measured DMC Natura
Medium.  Available in a range of colours, a few UK sources are:
https://www.loveknitting.com/dmc-natura-medium


https://www.woolwarehouse.co.uk/yarn/dmc-natura-medium-all-colours


https://www.woolstack.co.uk/dmc-natura-medium/


https://www.purplelindacrafts.co.uk/dmc-natura-medium-just-cotton-1184-c.asp


Brenda
>
> Can anyone in the UK
> tell me of a thick cotton fibre which could be used instead please for 7 or
10
> holes per inch canvas that will come in reasonable colours for christmas
> pieces red, blue, white etc.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Faery Lace?

[Brenda Paternoster]

I have been following this thread about the loss of very fine flax with
interest.

I know that about ten years ago Bart & Francis in Belgium were looking into
the possibility of producing fine linen thread again, and Francis Busschaert
kindly sent me a sample of 130/2 NeL linen.  His comments at the time were
that the thread was brittle but they didn’t want to use
wax/cornflower/starch because that would affect the end product and that the
mercerisation process doesn’t work on very fine linen.  He also said that
separating out the finest fibres was horrendously expensive and would yield
maybe only 10kg from a 200Kg bale.  That would have made the price of a 250
metre spool about 12-15 Euros (ten years ago) which was more than he thought
even the specialist lacemaking market would bear.

I measured the sample as 34 wraps/cm which isn’t that fine when compared to
the finest cottons.  The next thickness up in the B range of linen is 60/2
NeL is still available on their website, and which I have measured  as 24
wraps/cm.

I believe that the reason for the loss of the finest cultivars was a
combination of commercial pressures and the mechanisation processes which were
not suited to the finest flax and that these were exacerbated by wars.

Like it or not, the world has moved on and very fine linen is not available
any more.  There are other fibres which can be spun into very fine threads,
cotton and silk are best suited to lacemaking, though the finest are the
synthetics and I guess that medical use is the driver in the development of
those.

Brenda

> On 31 Aug 2018, at 05:50, robinl...@socal.rr.com wrote:
>
> 1) The cost of breeding over many generations to produce the extra-fine
fibers,
>
> (2) the cost of growing the more fragile plants (those fibers are what keep
the plants standing upright),
>
> (3) the cost of trying to spin and weave on mass-market machinery (where
speed trumps delicacy and fragile fibers can't take the stress), and
>
> (4) the delicacy of the resulting fabric (can't be machine washed or machine
dried or machine dry-cleaned, and even hand-washing has to be extra-careful)

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Help needed

[Brenda Paternoster]

If you are struggling to grasp the thread try using a mini latch hook.
Hemline sell them as snag repair tools.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hemline-H248-Miniature-Latch-Repair/dp/B002TYE4GQ


Brenda

> I've lost some of my manual dexterity due to illness and a crochet hook is
> not working. I have what I think is called a needle pin and Bridget cook's
> practical skills in lace book but I am struggling to make it work.

Brenda in Allhallows

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[lace] Re: Aurifil Mako 80

[Brenda Paternoster]

Sorry, I came to this thread late but no, I haven’t seen it yet.

Brenda

> On 23 Aug 2018, at 21:44, Susan  wrote:
>
> Hi Brenda!  Have you examined this thread?  Sincerely, Susan Hottle
>
> Sent from my iPad

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Re: [lace] Thread hunt

[Brenda Paternoster]

PS, I got that wrong!  My apologies.  Too late at night here.

Wrapped threads are the ones which are more prone to shredding, the bound ones
are usually a bit more resilient.

Brenda

> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:07, Susan  wrote:
>
> Got it—thanks Brenda!  Doesn’t look favorable for Rosaline. LOL. I just
finished a class with Judith Cordell & had an idea to use metallic thread.
When I get a spare moment, I will enlarge the pattern & try the Balger. At
least it’s a thread I already know from embroidery. Susan
>>
>>
>> On the whole bound threads are more prone to shredding than wrapped
threads.
>>
>>

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Thread hunt

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Susan

A wrapped metallic thread is one where the fibre core is smoothly wrapped with
a flat,narrow sliver of metallic foil.
A bound thread is one where the fibres and metallic slivers are held together
by very fine nylon or polyester filaments wrapped around them.  Usually one
going clockwise and the other going anticlockwise.

On the whole bound threads are more prone to shredding than wrapped threads.

Brenda

> Hello All!  Today I was looking for a fine metallic thread--56 wpcm--& ran
across Bart & Francis' "Copper Cobweb". Since many of Brenda's samples come
from Arachne members, I wanted to ask if anyone has used it in a project?
There is a lace sample shown on the web page for the product but no other
info. Comments, suggestions? It's listed as "bound" thread but I don't
understand how that differs from "wrapped" or how that affects its use. The
next finest metallic thread seems to be Kreinik Balger cord at 44 wpcm. Many
thanks. Sincerely, Susan Hottle USA
>
>

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Thread info

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Lorri

It sounds as though it’s C linen, which I don’t think is made any more.

Yellow labels and came in sizes 30, 50, 60, 80, 90, 100, 120 and 140.  All 2
ply

Size 100 measured 34 w/cm

Brenda

>
> I acquired a box of 6 spools of Linen thread.  The box is labeled  "C
> Handicraft Supplies LTD, London.
> Each spool has a yellow/gold label; C in an oval, 100% Linen  Thread,
Art
> No. 9052/100, Col. White, Metres 500, C Handicrafts, London, Made in
> Belgium.

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Re: [lace] computer programmers and lace

[Brenda Paternoster]

I’m not a computer programmer, just a computer user, but I’ve used drawing
programs to manipulate straight grid laces (torchon) into curved shapes since
the mid 1980s - IIRC it was 1984 when I first played around like that.

For some early examples of what I could do, and the hardware/software used
have a look at
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/lacepics/lacepics.html

Brenda

> if any of you are computer programmers, 1984 and 1985 was a long time ago,
> but do you remember if you had any bright ideas about the resemblance
> between lace making or lace-patterns and coding? And if so, in what
> software language?

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] The veil

[Brenda Paternoster]

TV commentary said that it is embroidered with the national flower from each
Commonwealth country.  53 of them.

Brenda
>
> What do we know about the lace veil?

Brenda in Allhallows

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[lace] Lace Revival

[Brenda Paternoster]

I first became aware of bobbin lace in 1975.

It had been a bad time for me having had two miscarriages in the first half of
the year and I had a strong urge to do something creative;  if I couldn’t
make another baby then it would have to be something else.  That August, to
commemorate the Battle of Britain, a local department shop had a huge panel of
lace displayed in a window with planes, parachutes etc.  One of a  limited
edition made after WW2 and which Carol Quarini has recently used one in
conjunction with her study of lace curtains - see the Lace Guild page on
Facebook.

I remember standing looking at it for ages - well as long as the 3 year old
would allow.  I knew it wasn’t knitted or crocheted, or a form of regular
weaving but I couldn’t work out how it was made.  I had been going to an
Adult Education class making soft toys, sunglasses case etc and on one
occasion I’d worn a cardigan trimmed with a bit of lace which I now know was
Barmen machine made.  The teacher had looked at it and said “did you make
that?” and my response was "of course not, I bought it in the market!”
“Well it looks the same as what we make in the lace class."

So, I joined the  lacemaking class and by the end of the first year I’d made
a couple of hankie edgings, an edging for my daughter’s dress and a couple
of small mats - and I was very pregnant with the twins which meant lacemaking
went onto the back burner for a year or so.

I went back to classes in the late 1970s and things had really changed.
Instead of using white thread or white thread or if you were really good it
could be black thread, everyone was using a different colour!  So I started
making a dark grey coloured mat with pink gimps (and I used crochet thread for
the gimp!).  The teacher thought that the change had come about because by
then the UK had joined the common market it was easier to get coloured thread,
but I’m sure that that wasn’t the reason.  It’s always been possible to
get coloured Sylko sewing machine thread here, even if she didn’t approve of
using it, ie it wasn’t an “accredited lace thread”.  I think it was much
more to do with the start of the Lace Guild and the sharing of ideas.

The other change that happened in the late 70s was the availability of
bobbins.  During my first year of learning to make lace most of my bobbins had
come via the teacher, mostly whatever old ones she could get hold of or nasty
plastic ones with rough edges.  When I went back I asked if she had *any*
bobbins that I could buy and the reply was “yes, would you like some of
these? or these? or these?”.

My teacher was Vera Rigney, who had learned bobbin lace in the 1950s from a
Mrs Helen Hoppe ,who had in turn learned from her mother Mrs Helen Ainger.
Mrs Ainger  was the teacher for The Cobham Laceworkers Association” founded
in 1910 by the then Countess of Darnley, who’s family seat was Cobham.
Helen Ainger’s mother, Jane Dillow, had moved to Cobham in Kent from
Buckinghamshire where she had been part of the, by then, struggling cottage
lacemaking industry.


Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Aurifil 80

[Brenda Paternoster]

I haven’t seen any Aurifil 80, but from looking at the size ranges of other
2Z threads Aurifil seems to be nearer to DMC Machine Broder which is slightly
finer than Egyptian gassed and Madeira Tanne/cotona.  The w/cm will *probably*
be in the mid 50s.

The finer the thread the less difference a wrap or two makes.  The difference
between, say 27 w/cm and 30 w/cm is noticeable.  The difference between 50
w/cm and 53 w/cm hardly shows at all.

Brenda
>
> When I saw the 80 pop up over a year ago, I bought some, and it seems as
nice as the other Mako sizes, which I love, so I bought it.  But since I am a
devotee of the Threads for Lace book, I waited with anticipation for her
measurement for wraps per cm so I could confidently use it.  Frankly, wraps
per cm seems to me to be subject to individual ideosyncracy, so the same
person wrapping leads to consistency.  It comes in colors.  I have been told
privately that it is similar to Tanne 80.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Irish Lace Pattern

[Brenda Paternoster]

This
http://www.emblibrary.com/EL/Products.aspx?Catalog=Emblibrary=C9855

would adapt to a braid lace.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Irish Lace Pattern

[Brenda Paternoster]

Some years ago Jean Leader published a set of UK national motifs which
included a shamrock.  OOP on Jeans website
https://www.jeanleader.net/publications/thistlemotifs.html

but it looks as though Barbara Fay still has it in stock.
http://www.barbara-fay.com/index.php/en/component/virtuemart/bobbin-lace/this
tle-rose-daffodil-shamrock-and-a-fuchsia-detail?Itemid=0


or maybe adapt something like this
http://clipartbarn.com/celtic-knot-clipart_30327/

to make a braid lace design.


> I have a student that would like a bobbin lace pattern for a bookmark that
is
> a typical 'Irish pattern'.
>

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Question about early English lace

[Brenda Paternoster]

What Thomas Wright actually wrote is
‘ "…bone-lace it is named, because first made with bone (since wooden)
bobbins.”

In the wardrobe accounts of Queen Elizabeth’s day the terms “bone lace”
(which was made with a fine thread) and “bobbin lace” (which was made with
a coarser thread) often occur - “bone,” however more frequently than
“bobbin.”

In the first quoted sentence he appears to be saying that bone lace was just
an earlier name for bobbin lace.
In the second sentence he’s saying that the term bone lace occurs more
frequently than the term bobbin lace and although he says that bobbin lace is
coarser he doesn’t provide a source to corroborate that statement.

Maybe looking at the wardrobe accounts of Queen Elizabeth I would shed light
on it.

A couple of interesting websites about Queen Elizabeth I’s
http://www.elizabethancostume.net/blog/warrants-101/

and
http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cyte/ElizabethI


BTW the references in the second website which begin PRO LC 5/  are old
references, they should now be TNA LC 5/
PRO = Public record office   which is now known as The National Archives (TNA)
at Kew, London
LC = Lord Chamberlain’s Department and 5= Great Wardrobe

Just looking at one of the items on TNA Discovery database
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C213973

shows that it’s a public record available for public viewing, but not
digitised or online so it would be necessary to visit TNA in person to see the
original.

>
> In Thomas Wright’s “Romance of the Lace Pillow,” on page 8 he makes a
distinction between bone lace as being finer, and bobbin lace as being
coarser. My other trusted sources (Levey, Palliser, Earnshaw, etc) make no
distinction, and my understanding has always been that bone lace is just an
early name for bobbin lace. What say you all?

Brenda in Allhallows

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[lace] Threads for Lace book

[Brenda Paternoster]

Dear Spiders

After a long wait I’m pleased to tell you all that I expect to be collecting
Edition 7 from the printers tomorrow.
All the info is at:
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/threads/threads.html

I would like to take this opportunity thank all the lacemakers around the
world who have helped me with this and previous editions with generous
donations of thread samples.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Walter Evans and Co.'s Mecklenburg thread No. 20

[Brenda Paternoster]

It depends what sort of lace you are planning to make.  If it’s Torchon then
12 wraps of the thread should fit between two foot-edge pinholes.  If it’s a
point ground it’s 10 wraps.  The wraps should be close together but not
overlapping.  For Bedfordshire or any braid lace then it’s a combination of
experience and experiment.

Brenda
>
> I'd experiment on a photocopy, and possibly adjust the size of the pattern
if I didn't like the result with the thread, rather than change the thread. I
suspect Brenda may have a more scientific suggestion!

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Walter Evans and Co.'s Mecklenburg thread No. 20

[Brenda Paternoster]

My guess is that you are probably looking at a 2 ply cotton thread.


IF it was cotton and 2-ply then in theory at least it would compare with coton
perle/pearl cotton

All the different brands of perle are fairly similar in thickness for each
size.
DMC, Mez and Madeira come/came as thick as size 3, all of which I’ve
measured as 2S-8 w/cm.

The finest pearl cottons are generally size 12 and measure 2S-21 w/cm.
Presencia Finca Perle size 16 = 2S-23w/cm

DMC Retors D’Alsace used to come in skeins;  size 16 = 2S-23 w/cm and size
16= 2S/25 w/cm
DMC Broder Machine (Retors or Brilliante) size 20 = 2Z-28w/cm
Madeira Tanne size 20 = 2Z-25w/cm

Note that Broder machine and Tanne are Z twisted because they are intended for
machine embroidery.
Most hand sewing threads are S twisted, which on the whole suits right handed
embroiderers/stitchers, and years ago it was considered a sin not to be right
handed.
>
> The thread
> used was known as Mecklenburg thread and the best quality was made by the
> firm of Walter Evans & Co. of Derby. The Mecklenburg thread came in eight
> grades,  known as 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 16 and 20, No. 2 being the coarsest
> and No. 20 the finest."

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Walter Evans and Co.'s Mecklenburg thread No. 20

[Brenda Paternoster]

The book is currently out of print, and for all sorts of reasons it’s been
that way for a while.  Once all our building work is finished I will get down
to doing the next edition.
If Jopie has a spare copy, grab it!

Re the Mecklenburg thread; I haven’t seen any, so that’s why it’s not
listed.  If anyone has a sample of it (or any other unlisted thread) which
they are willing to send a yard or two to me I will happily measure it, add it
to the latest Addendum list and include it in the next edition.

Brenda

>
> The book is called;- Threads for Lace (6th Edition), subtitle;- A survey
and
> comparison of 1800 Lacemaking and other threads by Brenda Paternoster.
There
> is no IBSN as the book is self published. Have a look at;-
> http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/threads/add5.html   Also, Brenda
herself
> is very approachable.
>
> If you cannot get a copy locally or directly from Brenda, I have a couple
for
> sale still (the book is only ï½£10.50 plus whatever the postage is) as not
all
>

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Threading needles

[Brenda Paternoster]

Most sewing machine needles do have the flat side on the shank to correctly
align the needle in the machine (some industrial machine needles are round)
but also machine needles have a groove down the front (rounded side of the
shank) to accommodate the thread as the needle pierces the fabric.  The scarf
or indentation on the back of the needle is to allow the shuttle hook to get
very close to the thread.

Machine needles are always threaded from front to back of the needle,
although on a lot of machines the needle is positioned sideways so that
threading might go left to right or right to left, but it’s always from
front (rounded side of shank) to back.  I don’t know, but I’ll guess that
the shanks are flattened before the eyes are punched.  That would make the
needle more stable is it is being punched and ensure that subsequent threading
would go in the same direction as the punching went.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewing_machine_needle


>
> I think the flat side is to be sure the needle is positioned
> exactly right for the mechanism that makes the stitch. If the needle were
> rotated the slightest amount, the thread wouldn't be hooked and there'd
> quickly be a thread jam.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Threading needles

[Brenda Paternoster]

I don’t think it’s that a needle eye is ‘designed’ to be threaded from
one side; rather it’s just that the way needles are made.  The hole for the
eye is punched out of the metal and it has to be done from one side, then
despite all the polishing and finishing that takes place it still remains
easier to push the thread into the hole from the side that the punch went in.

I can’t tell you where, but I’m pretty sure that I’ve seen that info
somewhere on the web in relation to sewing machine needles (which are usually
different on either side), but the same will be true for hand sewing needles.
it’s just that in all other respects a hand sewing needle is the same on
both sides.

Brenda
>
> Many do not even know how to thread a needle, or that one side of a
needle's
> eye is designed for that purpose.
>
> I have never heard of that. I tried Googling for information but couldn’t
> find anything.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Block pillow question

[Brenda Paternoster]

>
> I still don't see why you think half blocks are purely spacers,

Another reason for using half and quarter blocks is to get a corner entirely
on a full block.  The wider the edging the bigger the corner will be and the
more difficult it can be to get it positioned entirely on a block.  The full
width of the pricking has to go onto the block and it has to come off again
without any overlap.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Aurefil 50

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Ann

It’s a long staple Egyptian cotton thread.  2Z-42 w/cm
Yes, you can substitute it for DMC Broder machine (Retors or Brilliante) 50
but you can’t substitute it for DMC Cordonnet 50 or DMC Coton a Broder 50.

Brenda

> Can someone tell me what Aurefil 50 is please and can it be substituted by
DMC 50 which is the only one I have.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Lace tells

[Brenda Paternoster]

> In both of Beth’s messages the URL became split over two lines.  Maybe
reposting it from a different system will keep it intact.

http://torch.ox.ac.uk/themes/tellings-reconstructing-repertoire-songs-used-en
glish-lace-schools



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Re: [lace] Aurifil 80

[Brenda Paternoster]

I agree that the finer a thread is the harder it is to wrap consistently and
thus get an accurate wrap (to your tension).
The good news is that the finer the thread the less difference a couple of
wraps make.  The difference between, say, a 20 w/cm thread and a 22 w/cm is
noticeable, but the difference between,say, 55 w/cm and 60 w/cm is only just
noticeable in use.

Brenda

>  I think
> with these really fine threads it is virtually impossible to get a very
> accurate wrap.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Aurifil 80

[Brenda Paternoster]

I haven’t seen 80 wt Aurifil, but judging from the thicknesses of the other
sizes the size 80 wt will be very fine.

Brenda
>
> Sorry if I'm a bit of a bore, I remember there was a discussion on this
thread, could someone please tell me its equivalents or its wpi, please.
>
> I have just used the 40 and 50 for machine quilting and used the 28 for lace
and thought the 80 would be great for finer laces.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] metallic equivalent?

[Brenda Paternoster]

That would be the Moravia Fine glitter, listed as 80/2 and is immediately
after Moravia Metallic 40/2 and 60/2 (Page 84 in Edition 6).  29 w/cm
It’s listed separately because it’s a twisted thread, the Metallic is a
wrapped thread.

Brenda

> On 6 Oct 2017, at 01:21, Marianne Gallant  wrote:
>
> I just came across a pattern that uses Moravia metallic 80/2 and I can't
> find any information about it, other than ordering it from Moravia. Does
> anyone know what metallic would be close to it? Brenda's book only lists
> 40/2 and 60/2 for the Moravia metallic, but not the 80/2.

Brenda in Allhallows

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Re: [lace] Logarithmic lace

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Susan

I’m fairly sure I’ve got that book somewhere but it’s not on the shelf I
expected to find it!

The logarithmic lace which I did a while ago was a combination of theory and
winging it when it came to choosing the thread.  Theory wise go for the
mid-range, but err towards thicker rather than finer; go for the thickest that
can be squeezed into the closest parts without it wrinkling or
‘twippering’.  That’s a term I learned from the late Sue Willoughby who
had learned from an elderly aunt who in turn had learned towards the end of
the 19th century.  It’s what happens in Bedfordshire trails when the thread
is too thick.

Also consider that loosely spun threads such as machine embroidery, perle and
a lot of spun silk will squash down better than tightly spun thread, and they
will also relax and spread out in the places where the pins are furthest
apart.  Those threads though will make a soft lace.  Depending on the pattern,
you might be able to introduce extra twists or a heavier ground in the most
open areas.

If the difference in scale is very noticeable it might be better to plan for
the piece to be mounted in a frame rather than free standing.

HTH
Brenda

> Hello All!  Embarking on yet another lace adventure, I realized I needed to
ask a thread question before diving in.  Has anyone worked the Jane Atkinson
edging on pg 3 of Lace Guild's "Logarithmic Lace" book?  I'm curious how one
selects a thread size for something like this because of the changing
distances between pins.  Should I stick with Brenda's method for Selecting
Correct Thread Size (in Threads for Lace)?  Or wing it?  I'd like to work a
small piece to include in the "contemporary lace" portion of our next lace
exhibit.  Many thanks for any advice.  Sincerely,

Brenda in Allhallows

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[lace] Accented Characters

[Brenda Paternoster]

Further to the conversation about italics on the old Arachne server it appears
that Jeri Ames has more problems than most of us.

If I post words like Gütermann, Perlé, Alençon, Tønder and Cantù some
people get them correctly and can return them to me correctly.  Others like
Jeri receive (and return) all sorts of strange characters.

Maybe it’s because she is with AOL and that server is what does the strange
things?


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Re: [lace] Testing whether Italics will process on Arachne's Old Server

[Brenda Paternoster]

Same window comes up from the symbol on the bar right at the top, near the
time/clock and sound icon.

Brenda


> On 8 Jun 2017, at 22:27, Adele Shaak  wrote:
>
> he character viewer; for anybody else who has a Mac and didn’t know it was
there, it’s under Edit in Mail (and in the Finder, too) but it isn’t
called Character Viewer - it’s called “Emojis and Symbols”

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Re: [lace] Testing whether Italics will process on Arachne's Old Server

[Brenda Paternoster]

The alt codes worked but the asterisks, and underline didn’t.
I’m in UK using Mail on a Mac.

Does the ü in Gütermann and the é in Perlé translate correctly?
I accessed them using the Character viewer which I think all Mac computrs
have.

Brenda
>
>  I'm wondering, if I use alt-codes, if other non-English
> letters show up, such as
> the  c in Alençon, the o of Tønder, the u in Cantù
> If not, I'm sorry about the garble...
>
> If I press Alt-3, will you all see a little heart ♥
> If not, here it is in text <3

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Re: [lace] Testing whether Italics will process on Arachne's Old Server

[Brenda Paternoster]

It was the same for me.

>
> Quotation marks came through but italics, bold type, italics & bold type
together, and underline all came through as normal type!

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Re: [lace] Lier Lace??

[Brenda Paternoster]

Lier is tamboured lace named after the town of the same name in Belgium.
Some of the images in the Pinterest link quoted earlier are needle embroidered
laces, not tambouring.

I’ve put a short bit about Lier, and a link to working tambour lace onto my
website
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/misc/misc.htm


Brenda

> On 28 Apr 2017, at 00:43, mary carey  wrote:
>
>
> Could someone please explain to this uneducated Lacemaker what Lier is?  It
is
> a name I have not heard before.

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Re: [lace] Colour in lace

[Brenda Paternoster]

> I am making a bookmark  from Technique of Bobbinlace. For anyone that has
the
> book it is decoration b on page 46 and I would like to make it in white
with
> the three outlined motifs in blue. I have never used colour before and
would
> like some help from anyone who can tell me how to change from white to blue
> and back again please.

Do you mean “The Technique of Bobbin Lace" by Pamela Nottingham?
In my copy page 46 shows six different sections of a sampler, and b is a
diamond shape of torchon ground with tallies enclosed by a gimp.
Is that what you are asking about?

It’s not usual to change colours in gimps (the outlining threads) and
preferable not to have any joins in them because being much thicker than the
main thread any knots or overlaps will be very visible.

If you are asking about changing the colour of an area of cloth stitch what is
usually done is to change the workers and leave the passive threads as they
are.

There are two ways of doing that; either use knots to change the colours and
get the knots as close to the pin as you can or at the start of the section
you want to be coloured hang in a new worker pair and leave the original
worker pair as an additional passive pair.  When you get to the end of the
coloured section just lay the coloured pair bac over the work and close with a
cloth stitch made with the two should also be on the same pin.  Once the lace
is off the pillow you can weave in the ends of the contrast threads.

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Re: [lace] Idrija brand lace thread WPC

[Brenda Paternoster]

Idrija is a type of lace (originating in the town of Idrija, now in Slovenia)
not a brand of thread.

A lot of patterns do suggest using Idrija thread; in the sense of using thread
similar to that traditionally used in In Idrija and they probably mean
Coats Cipke Mojka Sukanac za Klekljanje Idrija
which translates as  Coats thread for Idrija bobbin lace.

Being a Coats thread you might find something similar branded as Anchor or
Mez, depending on where in the world you are.
You might also find something labelled as Textil za Turizem, sukanec za
Klekljanje Idrija which is very similar.

These are S spun 2 ply cotton threads;
No 25 = 23 w/cm  No 30 = 24 w/cm  No 40 = 28 w/cm

Brenda

>
> I have acquired some patterns for Idrija lace that I want to learn, but
> I am stumped on the thread sizing.  Alot of my patterns mention "idrija
> brand" thread in various sizes. I have looked in my threads for lace
> book, but I cannot find a reference to it. nr.40 is the most common
> size, but I have seen it mentioned in 30
>

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Re: [lace] Thread question

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Susan

It sounds as though it might the same as Presencia El Molino - a 7 stranded
rayon embroidery thread, on a spool rather than in a skein, each of the
strands being singles yarn.
Presencia El Molono: 1S/7Z - 11 w/cm.  single strand 1S - 23 w/cm

Rayon is a very soft thread, not a lot of ‘body’ but would make a nice
gimp with cotton (or linen) as the main thread, but probably a bit soft and
limp if you tried to use it alone.  A single strand would be fine (mixed in
with other threads) for a particular colour, but a lot of faff to separate the
strands for individual use in a whole project.

Brenda


> On 10 Feb 2017, at 15:59, Susan  wrote:
>
> Hello All!  Does anyone have any experience with El Molino, rayon especial
para labores, 25grs, Article 72, Lombard S.A., Barcelona??  It has a very soft
twist.  A friend plans to use it for a needlepoint project.  Has anyone used
it for large scale lace or gimp?  The colors are exquisite & it could make a
dreamy scarf.  Many thanks.  Sincerely, Susan Hottle USA
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
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Re: [lace] Arachne Handbook etc

[Brenda Paternoster]

>
> The 'problem' I have is that the hyperlink to the flickr page brings up an
> attached photograph of a young man at a table with several pots of yoghurt
on
> it -

Like others the link works properly for me, in UK.
Could the reason for the link not working properly be that the browser needs
refreshing - just click reload and it will clear anything that is in the
cache.


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Re: [lace] Self publishing

[Brenda Paternoster]

>   Can British lacemakers who have self published recommend a good web
> site, please?
> 
What sort of website?


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Re: [lace] Genealogist?

[Brenda Paternoster]

A quick look at ancestry.co.uk  and findmypast.co.uk
  confirms the UK part.
Convicted at Bedford Assizes summer 1831 for Housebreaking he was initially
sentenced to death, commuted to transportation for life.

LDS Family Search shows that he was born 28 March 1810, baptised at Flitwick
in Bedfordshire on 3 June 1810, son of Aliss and Joseph Dillingham.
The siblings I found easily were Anne born 1798, Millicent born 1800, Joseph
born 1805 and Mary born 1807.  All bapt at Flitwick, but there could have been
more (in an earlier or later register book).

See his gaol record
http://apps.bedford.gov.uk/grd/detail.aspx?id=4700


The Katherine Stewart Forbes arrived Van Demans Land 21 February 1832

The various prison/transportation records in 1831 give his age as 20 and 23,
but it’s not unusual for ages to be slightly out.  The baptism date and the
birth date recorded with the baptism record are much more likely to be
correct.

Brenda

> On 18 Nov 2016, at 21:50, mouracreek  wrote:
>
> Result of a quick and dirty hunt (and therefore not genealogically valid
[could
> be figments of fancy of the researchers or poorly researched or just copied
from
> other such sources]):
> Richard Dillingham from Bedford, born ca 1811 (or March 1810), Father
Joseph
> Dillingham, Mother Alice Holmes, siblings listed include sisters Amelia,
Harriet
> and Anne, brothers James and William [and possibly a Joseph as well].
Caught
> housebreaking at age 23.  5'7" tall, stout build, brown hair, sentenced to
life
> but commuted to transportation for life.  Transported to Tasmania on the
> "Katherine Stewart Forbes" , had a friend write home to tell his family that
4
> years after arrival he was within a mile of Hobart, drove a cart to market,
went
> to Victoria after Conditional Pardon and died there at age 65.  Letter home
say
> he had a daughter in Oz called Anne but not married to the mother.

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Brenda Paternoster]

That’s a lot dryer than UK - we are 70%-90% relative humidity.

A fine mist of water into the atmosphere around the cabinet, not directly onto
the linen, from time to time should help especially in the drier/summer
months.

Acid free tape and an acid free marker sound fine to me.

Brenda

> On 14 Nov 2016, at 10:01, Joseph Young <graceadlerdesi...@outlook.com>
wrote:
>
> I live in South Australia.
> We dont live in the desert, we have an average humidity of 35-55%. I wouldnt
know how to rate that as dry or mildly damp.
>
> I have a small cabinet that has a mesh front, and a couple of shelves. It
will fit in the bathroom. I will make some trays to put the thread in.
>
> How should i mark the outer of the tissue? Use 3m acid free tape and acid
free marker?
>
> Thanks Brenda, I feel very special being able to talk to you.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joseph
>
>
> "The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain."
-Dolly Parton
>
> Sent from BlueMail <http://www.bluemail.me/r>
>
> On 14 Nov 2016, at 8:15 PM, Brenda Paternoster <paternos...@appleshack.com
<mailto:paternos...@appleshack.com>> wrote:
>
>> We live in a single story house, with no attic or basement.
>>
>> What is the best way to keep moisture in the thread? Is there a device that
i
>> can keep with the thread when it has been property prepared for storage?
>>
>> At my last resort, i can put a small cabinet in the bathroom too keep the
>> thread. I think that would be my best option at this stage.
>>
>
> What sort of climate do you live in.
>
> Where I am in UK dryness, especially on days like today when it’s just
drizzling rain all the time, looking after linen is no problem, but if you are
in a desert …… Yes a cabinet in the bathroom would be a good option.  Wrap
the spools loosely in acid free tissue, but allow the air to circulate, maybe
open the drawer when the room is steamy, and don’t seal the linen into
polythene bags.
>
> Brenda in Allhallows
> paternos...@appleshack.com <mailto:paternos...@appleshack.com>
> www.brendapaternoster.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>

Brenda in Allhallows
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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Brenda Paternoster]

> We live in a single story house, with no attic or basement.
>
> What is the best way to keep moisture in the thread? Is there a device that
i
> can keep with the thread when it has been property prepared for storage?
>
> At my last resort, i can put a small cabinet in the bathroom too keep the
> thread. I think that would be my best option at this stage.
>

What sort of climate do you live in.

Where I am in UK dryness, especially on days like today when it’s just
drizzling rain all the time, looking after linen is no problem, but if you are
in a desert …… Yes a cabinet in the bathroom would be a good option.  Wrap
the spools loosely in acid free tissue, but allow the air to circulate, maybe
open the drawer when the room is steamy, and don’t seal the linen into
polythene bags.

Brenda in Allhallows
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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Brenda Paternoster]

>
> I would like to start buying some linen thread as i really like the texture
and the while concept of a fiber that you can grow (other than cotton and the
likes). I do know that linen threads store really well, but are difficult to
store.

Like any textile fibre linen is best stored in the dark.  It also does not
like being too dry, so don’t keep it in a centrally heated atmosphere.  A
ventilated cupboard in the bathroom, or a steamy kitchen, would be good - but
not if t gets contaminated with food!

I daresay Jeri will add something about ensuring that for long term storage
it’s wrapped in acid free tissue etc.

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

> I seem to remember many years ago reading that the cultivars of flax that
made the finest threads were deliberately destroyed during the French
Revolution, along with any saved seeds. However, all may not be lost! Flax is
a diploid plant with perfect flowers, an inbreeding system, and an annual
habit. The means it should  (theoretically) be fairly easy to identify,
isolate and breed new varieties.
> I decided last spring that I wanted to play around with developing new
varieties of some garden veggies, and thought it would be fun to try flax as
well. It was too late to start this season-- flax needs to be planted as soon
as the ground can be worked and it was already late spring when I started
thinking about it. I had hoped to begin  in spring of 2017, and wanted to
start with several different varieties of seeds. But it is very difficult to
find more than 1 or 2 varieties. So I will play around with what I can find
and see what happens.
> It's important to remember that we don't have to wait for some big research
facility to get us better linen threads. Anyone with a home garden and a cool
climate can jump in and do their part for horticulture and lace!

It would be brilliant if you could do it, but it would probably be a one-off
handspun thread.  Even if you do manage to breed flax with very fine bast
fibres the big problems would be growing enough and then finding a commercial
spinner prepared to take on a very small production run.

A couple of years ago Bart & Francis in Belgium were hoping to get some very
fine linen into production again but I have heard nothing more about that.

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

>>  The size of
>> the linen is size 50, 60, and 70. The brand is Campbell' s made in
Ireland.
>> What type of lace would you recommend for this linen I also acquired a few
>> skeins of linen years ago 6 skeins size 60 thread W. J. Knox LTP LC on
the
>> label and 3 size 20 with the same maker. What would you use these linen
>> threads for?

Campbell’s 50/2 = 18 w/cm.  60/3 and 70/2 are both 22 w/cm.  Knox’s LC 20
= 18 w/cm
As Jane says these are tablecloth weights, ie torchon with 6mm-7mm between
foot edge pins for the Campbells 50/2 and the Knox 20; 5mm or 6mm between the
foot edge pins for the 60/3 and the 70/2.

Knox’s LC 60 is a bit finer at 31 w/cm which is about the same as most 3ply
cotton sewing machine threads, or size 80-100 crochet cottons, use for torchon
with 4mm between foot edge pins, heavy Beds or Bruges etc.

BTW - it was  W.J. Knox Ltd, (not Knox LTP) and LC was the product - sometimes
called LC lace thread - I don’t know what LC stood for though.  It should be
in skeins (UK use of the word skein ie small hanks) with gold and red printing
on the labels.


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Re: [lace] Lace eye candy, salt water, wet cleaning unique laces, conservation

[Brenda Paternoster]

>
>   Some of you know that many 20th C.
> sequins were made of  gelatin.  They, also, melt away in liquids.  This
> means:   if you buy vintage sequins, test them in water before attaching to
> lace.


Gelatine sequins will dissolve in perspiration!   I have heard a sorry tale
about a dress with a lot of gelatine sequins attached, the wearer got hot, and
the sleeves and bodice of the dress stuck to each other!

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Re: [lace] Danish 'Little Hearts'

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Lori

Retors D’Alsace was renamed Broder machine.  The big reels were still called
Retors and the small reels called Brilliante, all the same cotton thread, but
no longer available.
2Z 46 w/cm;  give or take a couple of wraps means that you are looking at the
sort of thread you would use for fine Bucks Point, probably Sajou Fil au
Chinoise 60/2 or 70/2.

Brenda

> On 4 Sep 2016, at 05:00, Lorri Ferguson <lorri...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Brenda,
>
> I have the pattern (from Stott and Cook), it is calling for DMC Rectors
D'Alsace #60.  Is this a cotton thread?  I don't see it listed in 'Threads for
Lace'.
> What is the w/cm for it?  What can I get that is a substitute for that?
>
> TIA   Lorri
>
>
> From: Brenda Paternoster <paternos...@appleshack.com
<mailto:paternos...@appleshack.com>>
> Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 1:51 PM
> To: Lorri Ferguson
> Cc: Arachne
> Subject: Re: [lace] Danish 'Little Hearts'
>
> 100 Traditional Bobbin Lace Patterns - Geraldine Stott and Bridget Cook -
Batsford 1980  Page 4
>
> Technique of Tonder Lace - Inge Skovgaard - Batsford 1991 - page 56
>
> and probably several others.  I used it for my daughter’s wedding garter
> http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/weddings/lucywedding/lucywed.html
<http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/weddings/lucywedding/lucywed.html>
>  <http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/weddings/lucywedding/lucywed.html>
> The wedding of Lucy & Dean - Orpheus Web
<http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/weddings/lucywedding/lucywed.html>
> paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk <http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/>
> The wedding of Lucy & Dean 25th April 2003 at Sandals Royal Hicacos Hotel,
Varadero, Cuba. Lucy & her Dad Terry Exchanging vows. The ceremony was in
Spanish with a ...
>
>
>
> Brenda
>>
>> I am looking for the pattern for the Danish 'Little Hearts'.  Does anyone
know
>> which book or books it is in?
>
> Brenda in Allhallows
> paternos...@appleshack.com <mailto:paternos...@appleshack.com>
> www.brendapaternoster.co.uk <http://www.brendapaternoster.co.uk/>
Brenda in Allhallows
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Re: [lace] Danish 'Little Hearts'

[Brenda Paternoster]

100 Traditional Bobbin Lace Patterns - Geraldine Stott and Bridget Cook -
Batsford 1980  Page 4

Technique of Tonder Lace - Inge Skovgaard - Batsford 1991 - page 56

and probably several others.  I used it for my daughter’s wedding garter
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/weddings/lucywedding/lucywed.html



Brenda
>
> I am looking for the pattern for the Danish 'Little Hearts'.  Does anyone
know
> which book or books it is in?

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Re: [lace] Dividing pins help

[Brenda Paternoster]

Sewing needles are designed to snap, pins are designed to bend. So it depends
on whether you would prefer a mistreated divider to bend or to snap, and
choose an appropriate item for the shank.

Epoxy resin (Araldite) would be my choice for glue, but that does make it
necessary to find some way of supporting it whilst the glue sets - even if
using the rapid/20 minute type.

Brenda
>
>> Over the years I have found the best dividing pins to be ordinary sewing
>> needles with a middle sized bead glued on the top.

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Re: [lace] [Superior Threads Newsletter] We LOVE Silk Threads! Save 25% on Kimono Silk

[Brenda Paternoster]

I haven’t used it but I have measured it, 2S- 50 wraps/cm so the sort of
thickness you might use for Point Ground lace.

Brenda

> On 25 Aug 2016, at 23:48, Sue Babbs  wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried using this silk thread for lacemaking or sewing?   I have
> just been sent their newsletter and see that there are lots of colours, and
> 25% off for the next few days!
>
> https://www.superiorthreads.com/shop/category/thread/?brand=Kimono+Silk


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Re: [lace] working with a bolster pillow

[Brenda Paternoster]

>
> She recently was in Slovenia and took lessons there.  She reports that the
> bobbins must be wound left-handed (backwards to us right-handed people).
> Also, the thread does not stay well unless the bobbins are wound full.
>
When I was teaching the one thing I did try to insist on was that students
wound their bobbins “English style” ie clockwise looking down on the head
and that also making the hitch “English style”.  That was so that if I
needed to work at their pillow the bobbins would lengthen by turning in the
expected direction.  It’s not that clockwise or anti-clockwise is correct or
incorrect, it’s just being consistent, but also a left hand hitch on a
bobbin wound right handed, or vice-versa just does not hold.

If you are used to Midlands bobbins with the extra groove in the head where
the hitch goes you are probably also used to making a double hitch (not two
single hitches!) but generally that doesn’t work on a bobbin where the hitch
is made over wound thread, that only needs a single hitch.  But if a bobbin is
running low and the wooden neck is exposed than try the double hitch.
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/bobbins/bobbins.html





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Re: [lace] Survey Request

[Brenda Paternoster]

My answers are  3C and 2B


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Re: [lace] Marlitt thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Miriam

Anchor Marlitt is a four strand viscose rayon embroidery floss.
The complete thread I have measured as 10 w/cm - similar to most six stranded
cotton embroidery threads but a single strand is 20 w/cm - thicker than a
single strand of stranded cotton and quite a lot thicker than most
viscose/rayon threads.

There’s nothing to exactly match the nearest equivalent I can see is DMC
Rayon floss - 6 strands = 8 w/cm and a single strand = 20 w/cm

Rainbow Galley do small cards of Mandarin floss (bamboo rayon) 6 strands = 9
w/cm single strand 24 w/cm
Rajmahal stranded Art silk (viscose rayon) 6 strands = 10 w/cm single strand
28 w/cm

Brenda
>
> I just got the book by Barbara Corbet on Flanders Lace. She is using a
> Marlitt thread as a gimp. Could anyone tell me what the equivalent for this
> thread is.
>

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Re: [lace] DMC Precious Metal Effects Question

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hello Helen

It’s this
http://www.dmccreative.co.uk/Products/Needlework-Threads/Embroidery-Threads/L
ight-Effects.aspx


and is listed in Threads for Lace as DMC Special Effects Mouline.
Page 78 in Ed 6,
A single strand is 2 wrapped plies, S direction - 21 w/cm
All six strands 2S/3Z - 7 w/cm

Brenda

> Several years ago I purchased the Christmas Bangle patterns from Poole
> Bobbin Lace Circle.  I am looking for information about the DMC
> Precious Metals suggested in the instructions.
>
> I do not have any and would like to how many wraps it is, or a
> substitute for it.  I could not find it listed in Brenda's Threads for
> lace, or any of the addendums.

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Re: [lace] Category for Tenerife or Ruedas

[Brenda Paternoster]

It’s not embroidered net.

Wheel lace or sol lace, or the specific type such as Nanduti or Tenerife

Brenda

> On 30 Jun 2016, at 16:54, Devon Thein  wrote:
>
> What category would you ascribe if you were cataloging a piece of Tenerife
> lace or Spanish Ruedas? Under what words would you look for it? Would you
> call it "Embroidered Net"?

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace: Grenadine d'Alais

[Brenda Paternoster]

> On 11 Jun 2016, at 15:12, Nathalie  wrote:
>
> Thank you for the interesting reaction on my question on Grenadine
> d'Alais, the silk for Chantilly lace.
> The meaning of Alais became clear but what is Grenadine?
>
> Does anyone know what Grenadine means?
>
Wikipedia says it’s from the french ‘grenade” which means pomegranate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenadine
but a grenade weapon which is thrown has a textured surface not dissimilar to
the texture of crepe fabric which is what you get when highly twisted
grenadine thread is closely woven into fabric.

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Re: [lace] Point d'Esprit

[Brenda Paternoster]

> On 11 Jun 2016, at 15:13, Nathalie  wrote:
>
> What is the meaning of Point d’Esprit?

A square BL tally
Tulle fabric with small dots (tallies) all over it.

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Re: [lace] I need a "Biblical Quotation" bobbin picture ... please.

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hello Brian

>
> Yes I have hundreds of bobbins illustrated but not one with a Biblical
> inscription. something like "Thou shat not steal" or the myriads of other
> inscriptions there are from the Bible.
>
I’t not inscribed but I have a bobbin with a cross carved into it.
Inherited from an elderly lacemaker, and I know that she bought it as a
souvenir from a visit to Canterbury cathedral.
It’s on my website:
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/bobbins/specials.html
about ⅔ of the way down the page.


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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace: Grenadine d'Alais

[Brenda Paternoster]

>
>
> From other sources "grenadine d'alais" is the black silk used for Chantilly
> lace. It has a loose weave and is of a dull appearance rather than shiny.

Grenadine cloth is loosely woven, but the thread used for the weaving is
highly twisted.
>>
>> Chantilly lace is made of Grenadine d'Alais.
>> There are many descriptions of the thread, the material itself.
>>
>> But I wonder what exactly is grenadine?
>> Is Alais the place where the silk is made or dyed?

According to Wiki Alaise is "one of the most important markets for raw silk
 and cocoons
 in the south of France"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al%C3%A8s

which suggests that cocoons and grey-state silk fibres were imported into
Alais from the east rather than being where the silk moths were cultivated.
The reeling and spinning of the thread and weaving would have been done in
Alais

Grenadine thread is highly twisted, that’s what gives it the matte
appearance.  Used to make closely woven fabric it would make a crepe fabric.

Grenadine lacemaking thread is available from Bart & Francis in Belgium
http://www.bart-francis.be/index.php?item=silkorganza--grenadine--superia
=page_id=18=EN

about ⅔ of the way down the page.


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Re: [lace] threads for "Gold & Silver Edgings"

[Brenda Paternoster]

Thank you Sue for that info.

It looks as though the NeL 80/2 is what Moravia sold as “fine glitter” and the
40/2 and 60/2 are what Moravia sold as “metallic”.  AFAIK Moravia never sold a
100/2 metallic.

Brenda

> On 8 Jun 2016, at 21:57, Sue Babbs  wrote:
>
> The gold and silver threads listed at the top of Atelier MB's page make
wonderful bobbin lace.  They used to be sold as "Moravia threads".  They keep
their color, and don't shed.

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Re: [lace] threads for "Gold & Silver Edgings"

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Susan

Stephen Simpson and Atelier MB Medalfaden 40/2 are unknown to me, nor have I
seen the Benton & Johnson threads.

Coats/Mez/Anchor are all the same company so yes Coats Ophir and Mez Ophir are
the same.  (I think it’s just that they are marketed as different brands in
USA and Europe, and possibly also Japan.

Presencia make two metallics - ‘fine' which is a wrapped thread and 2 ply
which I’m pretty sure is two lies of the ‘fine' spun together.

DMC used the name fil metallise (which of course just means metallic thread)
for four different threads!
The one that’s Art 270 is rayon and lame = 2S/3Z - 22 w/cm
Art 272 is also rayon and lame in a different proportion and is 2S/3Z - 21
w/cm.  These two are very similar
Then there is Art 278 which is polyamide and polyester = bound/3S - 22 w/cm
That’s rather different
Also Fil metallise 50 which is 4S - 29w/cm, different again.

I haven’t seen any Rajmahal metallic thread, the only Rajmahal thread I know
of is a rayon intended for machine embroidery.

Brenda


> On 8 Jun 2016, at 01:53, hottl...@neo.rr.com wrote:
>
> Hello All!  Gil Dye's metallic edgings are calling my name & I thought I
would start out by working a few strips in plain cotton or linen before
jumping off on the metallic threads.  To orient myself, I started with the
thread comparisons on pg 8 & ran into a snag when I couldn't find some of the
threads in Brenda's book.  Just guessing here--it seems like the Benton &
Johnson passing & tambour plus the Jap thread would not normally be found in
her thread index because they are goldwork threads rather than lace.  I am not
familiar with Stephen Simpson or Atelier MB Medalfaden 40/2 so have no clue.
Is Coats Ophir the same as MEZ?  There are two entries for DMC Fil Metallise:
4S 29 & bound 27, but maybe they are close enough size-wise that it doesn't
matter.  Plus I wasn't sure about the correct Presencia thread--in fact I
didn't know they make metallics!  If anyone has worked these edgings, would
you be willing to share what you know about the threads?  Are there some
logica!
> l thread substitutes for ones that haven't been tested by Brenda?  Has
anyone used Rajmahal threads?  I own some stranded Rajmahal metallic that is
similar to DMC Mouline, maybe slightly finer.  Any help will be most
appreciated.  Many thanks.  Sincerely, Susan Hottle, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
USA
>
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Re: [lace] DMC Broder Machine 50

[Brenda Paternoster]

That’s interesting.

The Madeira UK website has no mention of cotton threads at all that I could
find! but Barnyarns, one of the biggest embroidery/haberdashery retailers do
stock cotona so it must be available.
http://www.barnyarns.co.uk/cotona-tanne-cotton/


DMC also seem to have stopped making machine embroidery thread (which is what
Tanne and Broder Machine is/was designed for).

The nearest alternative I can suggest for a fine, coloured cotton thread is
Superior Threads Masterpiece - with this caveat:
The reel I have is clearly marked as 50/3, and I have measured it as 2Z - 38
wraps/cm
On the Superior Threads website
http://www.superiorthreads.com/cotton-threads/

they say that it is a 3 ply thread, 50/3.  If that is correct then they have
changed the construction and it might now be rather thicker.

Brenda

> On 31 May 2016, at 07:55, Yael Kaplan  wrote:
>
>
> MADEIRA Cotona 50 has a collection of 120 colors. I am the Madeira
> representative in Israel and our web site (www.madeirail.com

> > ) has the entire
collection for sale (click here
> for the Cotona 50 page: http://madeirail.com/product/cotona-no-50-1000m-3/
).

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[lace] Biggins torchon patterns

[Brenda Paternoster]

Dear Spiders

I have just heard that Biggins Lace now have their new website up and running
which means that all their torchon patterns etc are now available again, also
Sajou threads to suit those patterns.
http://bigginslace.co.uk/ 

Brenda in Allhallows
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Re: [lace] Lace grounds with symmetry

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hello Veronika

In bobbin lace, cloth stitch (CTC) has 90 degree rotational symmetry, but not
mirror symmetry.

Additional twists added to each of the pairs, in the same numbers, both before
and after the cloth stitch will retain the rotational symmetry.

A single half stitch (CT) does not have symmetry (although an area of half
stitch ground, if the working angle is 60 degrees, does have rotational
symmetry, but again not mirror symmetry)  It can also have rotational symmetry
when worked diagonally.

This means that you are limited to grounds which are worked with only cloth
stitches or cloth stitches with twists before and after each stitch and half
stitch braids worked diagonally.

Looking through my copy of Cook & Stott’s “The Book of Bobbin Lace
Stitches" (not Bobbin Lace Grounds) I can see:
Gauze Ground - p2
Torchon gauze 2 - p4
Italian Fillet with toile dots - p6 (if placing of the squares is
symmetrical)
Abruzzen Point and flat - p7 (if placing of the squares is symmetrical)
Gauze shapes - p8 (of the shapes are symmetrical)
Torchon ground - p12 *
Devonshire Double ground - p 28
Cane ground - p29
Diagonal Plaid 1 - p 30 (only after the pins are removed and the working angle
adjusted to 45 degrees)
Diagonal plaid 2 - p31
Kat stitch - p38 (will give 60 degree symmetry only if the working angle is
adjusted to 60 degrees)
Devonshire Honeycomb variation - p46 (will give 60 degree symmetry when pins
are removed if working angle is adjusted to 60 degrees)
Rose Ground 1 - p65
Rose ground 4 - p 69
Rose Ground 16 - p80
Rose ground worked straight - p 81
Flags - p92 (not true symmetry but if the narrow half stitch braids are dense
enough it will appear to be symmetrical)
Cord ground - p101 (after pins are removed)
Cord ground in untwisted frame - p102 (after pins are removed)
Valenciennes with picots (not true symmetry, appears to be symmetrical if the
braid is firm enough)
Braided Kat stitch - p122
Braid and cross - p123
Braided squares - p126
Braided leaves with picots (picots are not truly symmetrical but if firm they
appear to be)
Hexagonal braided leaves - p128
Moulinet - p 131 (picots are not truly symmetrical but if firm they appear to
be)
Braided diamonds and squares - p140 (picots are not truly symmetrical but if
firm they appear to be)
Braided flower motif - p147
Devonshire Diamond filling - p166
Marguerites 170
Marguerite a centre de toile - p171
Fat Maltese petals - p173
Thin Cluny petals - p174
Whole-stitch bud - p 234

Some of these are in the slimmer volume by Cook and Stott “Introduction to
Bobbin lace Stitches” (with different page numbers).

*Not shown in either of the Cook and Stott books is Dieppe Ground - similar to
torchon ground on p12 but each pin worked CTpCTT

Brenda

>
> I have been able to find many examples with mirror reflection
> in them.  Roseground is a good example which can be reflected in four
mirrors
> that meet in the center of a square (see the following picture:
> https://tesselace.com/symmetry/ ).  What I
am looking for is grounds that have
> rotation symmetry - like a pinwheel. That is grounds that can be turned
around
> in a quarter, third or half of a circle and still look the same.

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[lace] Eye Candy

[Brenda Paternoster]

Lots of interesting pictures of vintage fashions. haberdashery and quite a bit
of lace too.
http://thetailorsdesire.tumblr.com/ 

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Re: [lace] Fwd: Finca threads

[Brenda Paternoster]

It’s Presencia UK that have gone into voluntary liquidation.
Presencia Spain (where the threads are produced) are still trading but they
are in administration.

AFAIK the USA outlet for Presencia (Finca) thread is still trading as usual.

Brenda

> On 23 Mar 2016, at 17:32, Susan  wrote:
>
> Hello All!  Just sending this along because a friend sells Finca thread at
her
> shop in Ohio & I was concerned about losing access to 16 perle.  While it
> eased my mind to know there is plenty of inventory in the US, I wonder
what's
> causing a problem in the UK.  Obviously I would be happy to help facilitate
if
> anyone on Arachne needs Finca threads.  Please contact me off list.
> Sincerely, Susan Hottle, Palm Beach Gardens, FL USA
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>>
>> Hi Susan -
>> I just got off the phone with Colonial and am pleased to say that your
> information is incorrect.  Presencia changed hands many years ago, but is
> going strong in full production.
>>
>> They may have mistaken the part of the world (Spain) where Presencia is
> based with the Turkish company Altin Basak which makes threads, perles and
> metallic/perle cotton combination.  They have closed.  I am looking for a
> substitute for a designer and she is going to audition Rainbow Gallery
> "Highlights" and "Silk Lame Braid" for a class kit.
>>
>> To quote Colonial "we have a whole tracker trailer full of thread".
>>
>>
>
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Re: [lace] Help

[Brenda Paternoster]

Yes Cathy , they have come through three times!

Maybe this is another example of the problems with some ISPs and the Arachne
list.

Brenda


> On 23 Mar 2016, at 09:36, Yahoo!  wrote:
>
> Please can someone tell me if the last THREE emails I have sent to Arachne
have come through, as they have not appeared in my mailbox, only my 'Sent'
box?  If they have appeared 3 times, please accept my sincere apologies as I
think I'm losing my marbles!

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Re: [lace] Biggins / Presencia

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi folks

Sorry about the gobbledegook at the end of my last message - the auto insert
is getting worse.  Should have read
“concentrating on their patterns and appropriate threads for those
patterns".

>
> Once the legalities are sorted and different threads have been sourced they
> are planning to relaunch as Biggins; concentration on their patterns and
> appraise threads for those patterns.
>
>
>

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Re: [lace] Biggins / Presencia

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Liz

It’s because Presencia Spain are insolvent.  The conditions the
administrators are imposing - big price increase, payment in advance and with
the current situation no certainty of actually receiving the goods - meant
that Vivienne and Iain of Presencia UK felt that they had no option other than
voluntary liquidation/winding up.

Once the legalities are sorted and different threads have been sourced they
are planning to relaunch as Biggins; concentration on their patterns and
appraise threads for those patterns.

Brenda

>
> Guys,
> Just went to the Biggins website and it's down. Kind Regards
>
>

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Re: [lace] thread for Hollie Point

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Julie

Tanner 50 is 39 wraps/cm.  Brok 160 is 66 wraps/cm and Egyptian 120 is 58
wraps/cm so they are both considerably finer than the Tanne
Actually Egyptian 60/2 is 39 wraps/cm the same as Tanne 50 and Brok 70 is 38
wraps/cm (very marginally thicker).  Any Egyptian cotton with a number higher
than 60/2 or Brok with a higher number than 70/2 will be thinner than Tanne
50.  Egyptian cotton comes as fine as 185/2 which is an eye watering 85
wraps/cm

The other important thing about Brok and Egyptian cotton is that they are
manufactured as lace threads and are S twisted.  Tanner is manufactured as a
machine embroidery thread and is Z twisted.  If you are having problems with
the Tanne twisting up as you work you might well find that Brok or Egyptian
will be easier to work with.

Brenda
>
> Do some threads give nicer final results?  And what about the feel of thread
as you work with it?  In bobbin lace I enjoy the way different thread material
feels differently as I work with it.
>  My book mentions "Brok 160 or Egyptian Cotton 120".  How do Brok and
Egyptian Cotton compare with Tanne 50?
>  What size thread should I be using anyway?  Brok 160 and EC 120 are,
according to my thread chart, significantly smaller than Tanne 50.



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Re: [lace] email problems/Celtic demo

[Brenda Paternoster]

Irish crochet only developed in the mid nineteenth century - to loosely
imitate other laces and to provide a small income to those who had not starved
to death or emigrated because of the potato famine.  It’s a fairly recent
tradition in just one area of the ‘Celtic’ region, though it may, or may not,
have been introduced to Ireland bu nuns from Spain.

Brenda
>
> One response to the moral quandary of lace demonstration at a Celtic
festival
> would be to make Irish crochet, if one had that additional skill set.
>

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Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations?

[Brenda Paternoster]

Malvary, I think you have got it spot on.

Brenda
>
> I might suggest finding a nice Celtic knot pattern and working that. Whether
people in Celtic nations ever made such a thing (probably not) isn't really
the point, it is to give the feel of the designs and for people to see lace
being made so that they have a good time while they are there.

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Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations? - a brief history lesson!

[Brenda Paternoster]

Being Celtic is a cultural thing, not a genetic identity or a political
nationality.

At the time of the last glacial maximum (ice age) human populations in Europe
were confined to three small area; the Atlantis (modern Ukraine), the Balkans
(modern Greece) and Iberia  (modern Basque region of Spain).  The three groups
were separate long enough that natural genetic mutations made them into
genetically distinct groups.  Then when the ice retreated, about 10,000 years
ago the populations expanded northwards.  Those in Atlantis populated eastern
Europe, those in the Balkans populated central Europe, including Greece and
the Roman Empire and some got as far north as Scandinavia.  The people from
Iberia populated western Europe including Britain.  Melting ice and a tsunami
around 8,200 years separated Britain and Ireland from mainland Europe and the
people here became the ancient Britons from late stone age through the bronze
age and the iron age, but they were genetically the same as those in modern
Spain. France, Germany etc.  Archaeology shows that there was trading with the
continent and there could have been some inter-breeding with genetically
similar people, but it was not an age of literacy.

Julius Ceaser invaded Britain in 55BC and Britain came under Roman rule from
43AD-410AD but although they left a lot of technology the Romans (mid European
originating from the Balkans) were a separate ruling class and did not
inter-marry with the ancient Britons.  There is very little Roman DNA in the
indigenous population of the British Isles.  When the Romans left there was a
void in the leadership of the islands and that’s when there were lots of
small invasions from all over western Europe,  Angles and Jutes from modern
Denmark and Saxons from modern Germany became the Anglo-Saxons who took over,
and interbred with the ancient Britons in what is now eastern and  southern
England.  People from modern Spain and southern France (the Keltoi tribes)
moved across to western England, north through Wales, Cumbria and western
Scotland.  They also went to Ireland and the Isle of Man.  These were the
Celts and they too intermarried with the ancient Britons - but as all of these
people had originated from the ice-age population in Iberia it is very
difficult, if not impossible, for geneticists to distinguish between them.  On
the other hand Viking genes from northern Scandinavia can be identified in
northern Scotland and some parts of Ireland.

It seems to be the language as much as anything which identifies a group of
people as Celtic - and that’s why Gallacia in northern Spain is not always
considered to be Celtic; the language there died out and Spanish took its
place.  The ancient British language, which was never written down, died out
and the germanic languages of the Angles and Saxons became Old English and
developed through middle English into Modern English.  On the western side of
the British Isles  the incoming Celtic languages, although similar, remained
distinct, but they too replaced the language of the ancient Britons.  Welsh,
Breton and Cornish are in the Britannic group of Celtic and Manx, Scots Gaelic
and Irish Gaelic are in the Goidelic group.  All of these languages remained
as first languages for some people until about the 20th century when English
gradually took over but all the Celtic regions are keen to keep their historic
languages alive.

Lacemaking is much more recent and doesn’t follow the same patterns.  Bobbin
lace goes back to about the 16th century and it is debatable as to whether it
came over from Flanders (northern France/Belgium) or developed independently
in England.  There are only two main areas of England where BL was made; the
east Midlands which is firmly in the Anglo-Saxon area and Honiton in Devon
which was part of the Cornish Celtic area.  Most of Britain does not have any
traditional bobbin lace although embroidery, and hence embroidered laces, was
widespread and done mostly by upper class ladies and by nuns who had the time
to devote to their needlework.  There is no tradition of bobbin lace elsewhere
in the British Isles.

http://atlantis-today.com/Atlantis_Ice_Age.htm
https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/restart-of-europe-after-last-i
ce-age/
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0315/180315-fine-scale-british-isle-
genetic-map

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/primaryhistory/anglo_saxons/who_were_the_anglo-s
axons/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages

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Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations?

[Brenda Paternoster]

Ireland doesn’t have any tradition of bobbin lace - but they do have some
wonderful needle laces ; Youghal, Carric-ma-Cross, Limerick….

Scotland doesn’t have any tradition of bobbin lace, but the Shetland Isles
(norse rather than Celtic) have lovely knitted lace.  Also Ayrshire work which
is between needlelace and fine embroidery.

Wales doesn’t have any tradition of bobbin lace either; their fibre crafts
are mostly weaving.

Cornwall doesn’t have any tradition of bobbin lace, but just across the
county border into Devon (just about into the Celtic region) is Honiton.  A
huge amount of bobbin lace was made in the villages around Monition, but also
in the area Branscombe Point needle lace was made.

Isle of Man doesn’t have any lace traditions.

Brittany has the elaborate lace head dresses, but they seem to be made from
all sorts of laces - bobbin, needle, machine.  It’s not a traditional
lacemaking area.

Galicia is most definitely a Celtic region, but again I don’t think they
have any tradition of bobbin lace.

Brenda

>
> I'd like to find some information about bobbin lace specifically in the
> Celtic nations (officially: Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man, Brittany
> [northwest corner of France], and Cornwall, and some lists also include
> Galicia in northern Spain). Can someone recommend a book or other source of
> such information? All I've found online is about Ireland, and not very much
> of that.

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Re: [lace] Miniature lace

[Brenda Paternoster]

Any BL pattern can be reduced (or enlarged) to suit your own requirements.

Sometimes it’s a bit of trial and error to get the right size, and as Karen
says there is a limit as to how small one can actually work.
Use this table
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/threadsize/threadsize.html

which is also in the Threads for lace book, to work out what size thread you
need to use once you have reduced your pattern.

Brenda

> On 28 Feb 2016, at 11:19, Karen ZM  wrote:
>
> Perhaps if you are looking for more items, you can reduce the size of some
> simple patterns. I imagine that if they are too complicated then they will
> be too difficult to work at such a small scale unless you have superhuman
> eyes.

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Re: [lace] Bucks Point Wedding Garter

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Sue

You don’t need a custom garter pattern; just use an edging pattern that you
like.  Make two copies of it, trim one very close to the footside pins and
place it over the other copy so that there is one line of ‘footsie’ pins
down the middle.  Omit or blank out every other one of those and work so that
you get a line of honeycomb holes down the middle.

Brenda

> On 19 Jan 2016, at 22:58, Sue Harvey <2harv...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me where I can find a pattern for a wedding Garter in Bucks
Point, it's my favourite lace and I want to make one for my granddaughter for
her wedding in December

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Re: [lace] Gutermann R402 silk

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Karen

I haven’t seen any Gütermann R402
https://www.guetermann.com/shop/en/view/content/guet_productDetail?currentPro
duct=R_402_E_ind=true=Industry-Products-Fine-Threads=


The R in the code R402 indicates that it’s reeled silk (filament silk) so
shinier and more slippery than the S303 which is spun silk.
The 402 indicates that it’s tex 40 and 2 ply.
S303 is spun silk, tex 30 and 3 ply.
Thus the 402 is 1.33 times  the thickness of 303.

303 is generally considered to be average sewing machine thickness, the 402 is
described as a top stitching thread, though being packaged as a small hank
indicates hand top stitching, as in high end tailoring.

If you can work with a very slippery thread, that’s probably in the region
of 18-22 w/cm then it’s very likely to be good for BL, but it doesn’t
appear to come in any other size packaging.
The full range of Gütermann silk is
https://www.guetermann.com/shop/en/view/content/Industry-Product-Silk-Threads
?node=Industry-Products-Fine-Threads


Have you considered the silks from Piper Silks
http://www.pipers-silks.com/ 
or Bart & Francis
http://www.bart-francis.be/index.php?action=home=EN


Brenda

> On 12 Jan 2016, at 11:26, Karen ZM  wrote:
>
> Does anybody know anything about Gutermann R402 silk please, and whether it
> would be suitable for bobbin lace? I have never yet come across this and am
> (still) searching for some silk to use to make a wedding veil. So far, the
> best contender seems to be the reeled S303 100/3, but seems to be only
> available on 100m reels. I have calculated that I would need around 8,000
> metres for the project.
> One UK supplier, who I wrote to requesting whether the S303 is available on
> larger reels, wrote back saying the R402 is available in 750m hanks. This
> is not listed in Brenda Paternoster's Threads for Lace 5, nor on the
> appendix.
> Any advice will be most welcome. Many thanks, Karen in Malta
>
> The specifications given in the Gutermann website are as follows:
> R 402 E100% pure silk specially finished for edge stitching machine
>
> Product Advantages R+S
>
>   - Good sewability
>   - High brilliance due to pure silk and special finishing
>
> ArticleMake-upArticle-No.
>
>   -
>   -
>   -
>
> R 402 E
>
>   - No./Tkt.75
>   - tex40
>   - dtex400(2)
>
> 750 m702951
>
>   - Product Data
>

>
> Raw materialSilkCountNo./Tkt. 75 - tex 40 - dtex 400(2)PackingMake-up750 m
> CarrierHank
>
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Re: [lace] thread question

[Brenda Paternoster]

So it’s saying to use size 80 crochet cotton for lace around a
handkerchief.

If the pattern says DMC then it does mean Cordonnet 80 or Special Dentelles 80
(which I believe is the same thread, just that Cordonnet comes in big balls
and white and ecru only, Special Dentelles comes in lots of colours but in
small balls).  If the lace edging is crocheted or tatted that would probably
be the best choice, but IMO the 6-ply threads such as Cordonnet isn’t the
best choice of thread for bobbin lace to surround a hankie because it works up
crisp, almost hard. For a hankie edging I would choose a 2-ply or 3-ply thread
to make the finished lace softer.

Brenda

>
> Häkelgarn is German. And Taschentücher is the plural of Taschentuch and
this is in English a handkerchief. And here it means thread for lace around a
handkerchief.
> The mention brand is DMC but if Cordonnet or  spez. dentelles isn’t clear
if not mentioned on the label. And this isn’t always so.
>
>

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Re: [lace] thread question

[Brenda Paternoster]

Yes, Häkelgarn means crochet thread, (I’m not sure which language;
Norwegian? Finnish?  So probably DMC Cordonnet or Special Dentelles
(“tatting cotton”) or something similar.
I don’t know what Taschenticher means - it’s probably referring to a
specific part of the lace.

Brenda

> On 4 Jan 2016, at 18:50, Ilske Thomsen  wrote:
>
> häkeln is crochet Häkelgarn thread for crochet. No 80 is fine it’s for
crochet lace. It’s very strong twisted so it’s not fitting for every sort
of bobbin lace.
>
>>  Can someone please"translate" the
>> thread requirement "80er Hakelgarn fur Taschenticher"? Thank you. Judy

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Re: [lace] Mounting finished lace

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Sally

Mounting and Finishing Lace by Gilian Dye - Elveston Press
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Finishing-Mounting-Lace-Gilian-Dye/dp/0952270951


Mounting and Using Lace by Jean Withers - Dryad
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOUNTING-LACE-USING-LACE-JEAN-WITHERS-/130594279278


An introduction to Mounting Lace by Kate Riley & Pauline McLeod - The Lace
Guild
http://www.roseground.com/books/lacemaking-books/an-introduction-to-mounting-
lace


Hints on Finishing and Mounting Lace by Margaret Hamer & Kathleen Waller -
self published
http://www.amazon.com/Hints-Finishing-Mounting-Margaret-Hamer/dp/0950573868


Some of these are out of print but you might find a used copy.

and/or look at:
https://www.laceguild.org/guild/pics/MountingLace.pdf


http://laceioli.ning.com/group/bobblinlace-beginners/forum/topics/attaching-l
ace-to-fabric


http://www.lacegumnuts.com/mounting-lace/


Mostly the emphasis with all of these, books and web pages, is on hand
mounting handmade lace. and my personal preference is for hand mounting; you
have taken time to make a piece of lace so take a bit more time to finish it
off properly.  But having said that, I do appreciate that not all bobbin lace
makers do not have the desire, or the necessary needlework skills, to make a
good job of attaching lace to fabric by hand, and I prefer to see neat machine
stitching to uneven and puckered hand sewing.

I can’t imagine though how you envisage using an iron-on backing to attach
lace to fabric.
Do you mean using something like Bondaweb to effectively glue a lace motif
onto fabric?  What would happen to all the bits of glue in the holes of the
lace and around the edges?  Apart from looking ugly surely it would gunge up
your iron.

Brenda

>
> Is there a book out there on how to mount finished lace? I've mostly made
> stand-alone things like bookmarks, that don't need to be mounted. For some
> small figures (for instance Louise Colgan's hummingbird) I have taken just
> a few tacking stitches and mounted them on velvet, then framed them. The
> glass helps press the lace into the velvet and it won't slip (especially
> with those few stitches).
>
> But for  a longer trim, or a complex shape, what are my options? Is iron-on
> backing an option, or will I be booed and hissed out of the global guild
> ;-)   ?I really don't want to spend the same amount of time sewing as I
> did making the lace!

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Re: [lace] RE: Tape lace

[Brenda Paternoster]

Although it has some nice needlelace fillings I don’t think it’s from
Branscombe.  My understanding of Branscombe lace is that it always includes
the little nibs on the bars and sometimes around the edge.  Nibs are a type of
picot made by working buttonhole stitches over a loop of thread.

Brenda

>
> I'm thinking it could be Branscombe, although the tape is fairly wide, it
> looks right and the needlelace fillings look intricate enough and certainly
> include some of the 'traditional' ones.
>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone knows this type of tape lace?
>> https://instagram.com/p/-I-jgpwS2u/
>> https://instagram.com/p/-I-iapwS2q/
>
>

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Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[Brenda Paternoster]

My 1973 edition of the 1954 book “The Modern Textile & Apparel Dictionary
by Professor George E Linton published in USA  (He was a textiles teacher and
Dean of the textile department of Fashion Institute in New York) at describes
a skein as “an appreciable length of yarn or thread that has been wound onto
a reel or swift… the circumference of a skein varies, usually from 44 inches
to 54 inches…..

That is describing a skein as being in the same format a s a hank.  He does
not mention the centre pull rolls, balls, cakes etc, but it does now seem to
be common parlance in USA to describe centre pull balls as skeins.  In UK the
work skein is used more often for the small coils of embroidery cottons which
if you are very careful with it’s possible to pull a length without taking
the label off.  That’s how language evolves.

Or ask my husband, he would say it’s a group of flying geese!

Brenda


> On 7 Nov 2015, at 04:44,  
wrote:
>
> As we started getting more varieties of yarns, we got more varieties of
shapes of skeins.  We have balls (some but not all allowing center-pull),
hanks (the English skein, I guess), cones (those used to be for weavers),
'cakes' (short cylinders, diameter greater than length) and what-not.  My
experience is that 'skein' refers to the fact that there is a specific
quantity of yarn gathered together in an orderly shape, and the other terms
refer to the shape of the skein.  Even hand-spun and other non-commercial or
boutique yarns can be in 'skeins' usually in the shape of hanks or cakes.
This would be because ball-winders make cakes and swifts make hanks, and those
are the most commonly-available machines for winding skeins.

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Re: [lace] Aurifil Thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

It’s listed in Threads for Lace as Aurifil Mako.
28 wt is 26 w/cm

Brenda

> On 6 Nov 2015, at 00:15, Lorri Ferguson  wrote:
>
> I have some Mako Aurifil thread  28/2.  Does anyone know the wpc on this?I
am
> not finding it in my Book 5, or in the Addendum lists.
> TIA  Lorri Ferguson
>
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Re: [lace] What size thread?

[Brenda Paternoster]

It’s Honition so  you need a very fine thread, but Honition more than other
laces is fairly flexible in the thickness of thread used because if it starts
looking thin you add another pair, if it starts looking overcrowded you take a
pair out.

If you are thinking of it more as a Milanese piece try to measure the
(average) spaces between the pins and refer to the chart ao
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/threadsize/threadsize.html


Brenda


> On 5 Nov 2015, at 13:50, Witchy Woman  wrote:
>
> Never found the source of the bobbin lace angel on TatMan's blog, so I
drafted
> out the pattern and would like to start to wind bobbins.   But the question
> is,  what size thread?
>
>
> I drafted it at the same size as the picture on
> http://tat-man.net/blog/?p=1210 .
Approximately 3 inches tall.
>
>
> I changed it
> slightly into more of a tape lace once you get past the head.  Using half
> stitch and cloth stitch for  the head and face,  and Hinojosa kernel stitch
> for the headband.  Will probably use Hinojosa or Milanese braids for the
body
> and wings.  Figuring those out now.

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Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[Brenda Paternoster]

Julie, it’s not clear what is meant by ‘skein’  I know from the
knitting/crochet forum Ravelery that there is a lot of confusion about that
word.  To me, in UK, a skein means a small hank, but a lot of Americans seem
to use the work skein to mean a centre-pull machine wound ball.  If your skein
is in the form of a loose coil or hank then you most certainly do need to wind
it into a ball before you try to use it - for BL, for knitting, for crochet or
any other use.  If you try to use it directly you will soon learn why you
shouldn’t; it will sooner or later end up in a tangled mess.

If it’s an oval ball shape ‘skein’ you can use it directly from the ball
and you can pull from the inside or the outside according to your personal
preference.

Brenda
>
> I don't think the instruction is exactly that I must never wind bobbins
> directly from skein. I think the instruction is that whenever I use a skein
I
> must spread it out totally, not let it bunch up, and I put something in the
> center so stop the loops of yard from merging. So: a chair back, an arm and
a
> foot, two feet. So if I want to just pull yarn out without giving the
matter
> any thought I need to wind the yarn into a ball.

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Re: [lace] Lace scarf thread comparisons by Jane Atkinson

[Brenda Paternoster]

I did a similar workshop with Jane at a Lace Guild convention a few years ago
and found it very interesting.  If you have accurate scales and sufficient
thread you can of course find the Tex, or dTex of any thread/yarn.  If you are
looking at very fine threads you probably need to measure off 20m rather than
10m.

What I thought was really useful is her way of making sample pieces using a
pricking which gradually increases in scale.  Start with one which looks a bit
small and work through until it’s obviously too big then look at the
sections to see which looks best.  The sample pricking is in jane’s book
‘Contemporary Lace for You’.

Brenda

>  this wondrous information was presented in Jane's class at IOLI convention
in Iowa.  It was quite a revelation as we measured & weighed & tested the
results.  We all brought threads & yarns, some without labels etc.  While I'm
sure we had a few threads that are in Brenda's book, most were not.  One of
the students wanted to use a fuzzy/furry yarn & was concerned about the halo &
how that would affect the pricking size.  What she found was that the halo
didn't matter, probably because it was accounted for in the weight.  When a
test swatch was made, the corresponding dot grid proved to be the best one for
her chosen yarn.  Most of us use Brenda's book, but she can't know every
thread & yarn on the planet.  Jane's method can be especially useful for items
that Brenda can't reasonably measure:  yarn you've spun yourself, artisan/one
off threads from fairs/festivals or no-name/no-label goods lurking in your
stash.
>
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Re: [lace] Help please.

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Julie

It looks like Point de Gaze, but not detailed enough to be certain that it’s
all needle lace with no bobbin fillings to make it mixed Brussels.  A very
nice piece of lace.

Brenda
>
> Sorry, here is the photo of the lace.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/whatlaceisthis
>

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Re: [lace] Equivalence of Superior Threads' Kimono Silk

[Brenda Paternoster]

Yes, the website says it’s 0.16mm diameter - but is that lying flat,
stretched out on the reel or worked up in lace/embroidery?
It doesn’t say 100/2 so I guess that’s printed on the spool label, and
it’s not been stated anywhere whether they are using cotton count or metric
number or some other system of measurement.

Silk is a very accommodating thread and will spread out or spread out quite a
lot, especially of it’s not very firmly twisted.  That’s where w/cm is
such a useful measurement, I’m making a wrapping thread does get flattened a
bit, but that also happens when it is made into lace.

If you would like me to make a wrapping, to my tension, I am always happy to
receive  samples and the results will go int Addendum6 on my website.
For ordinary torchon type thicknesses about a yard or a metre is sufficient it
does;t need to be measured properly  For finer threads - and I suspect that
the Kimono silk will be finer - a bit more is appreciated; more wraps/cm needs
a longer length.

My postal address is
Brenda Paternoster
46 St Davids Road
Allhallows
Rochester
Kent  ME3 9PW
England  UK

Brenda

>  The thread's website
> says it is 0.16 mm in diameter... Maybe we can
> work out how many wraps we can get using that value.
> Thinking of all other lacemakers, I'd rather send
> Brenda a sample so she can work her magic for the
> next version of her book, and also send her
> samples of a famous Spanish cotton thread, "Hilo
> Japon閟" (which almost everyone calls "The
> Japanese Lady" thread) in sizes 70 and 80, so we
> can get the equivalence and wraps/cm of those as well.
> Brenda, please let us know how to send you
> samples and what information to include!

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Re: [lace] pricking size for scarf

[Brenda Paternoster]

>  I have a design and I have silk yarn.  However, I don't know how much to
enlarge/reduce the pricking so as to fit the yarn.

I agree with Antje’s instructions to wind your thread around a pencil or
strip of card so that the threads lie parallel to each other, just touching
but not overlapping.  Whatever length the width of twelve threads  is should
be the distance between the foot edge pins - assuming it’s torchon lace.
see
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/lace/threadsize/threadsize.html


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