Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
Again: my advice to you 9/11 conspiracy theorists is to refrain from
making any references to 11/22 conspiracies within earshot of me. I
don't yet know how much of my life I'll waste on 9/11 truth, but
I've already invested more than enough on 11/22 to be able to make
Quoth Robert Forte:
-
You're getting ahead of yourself Brian. The fact that you can't see
why the conspirators would risk blowing up the a building in an
unexplainable way is irrelevant right now. The fact is that
conspirators did blow up a building in a way that no one has officially
Brian,
First, I need to issue a disclaimer, because of the way you've quoted
me: I am _not_ proposing the ideas I set out as my own, or as what I
consider to be proven, or proveable, theories. I threw them out as
plausible alternative explanations.
That said:
TK Since the terrorist could not
Brian,
You write:
[Note to Tom Knapp: your response to the above is still in my queue for
rebuttal.]
I didn't write anything rebuttable. I just asked you to support your
assertions regarding immigration, or to point me to where you have
supported them elsewhere.
Regards,
Tom Knapp
Quoth Brian Holtz:
TK One need merely assume that a) al Qaeda was following its standard
tactic of setting off one bomb and then waiting for responders to arrive
before setting off additional ones; TK
Why would al Qaeda let 12,000 infidels escape the towers before bringing
them down, just
Quoth Brian Holtz:
This Aviation Week Space Technology article
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/747496/posts on 9/11 scrambles
settles the question about whether Andrews fighters were normally on
5-minute alert.
I didn't know that there ever was any such question to settle. I
never
Quoth Brian Holtz:
TK Perhaps, but not necessarily so. It could also be (as a matter
of fact
it is) that many ZAP libertarians regard polities to be governed
as an
unsatisfactory answer to the problem of human political organization
in the
first place. The concept of polity is very much
Quoth Brian Holtz:
BH Nothing you said contradicts my point that no single-sentence
libertarian axiom (e.g the ZAP) can deterministically uncompress into a
reasonably complete political theory. BH
TK I wasn't attempting to contradict your point TK
It sounded like you were when you said
Quoth Brian Holtz:
TK Feel free to refer me to where I called your position pro-war.
I don't
think you can, because I don't ever recall doing so. TK
I was the only candidate mentioned by you in that paragraph, but
apparently
this was a miscommunication.
I thought I was replying (at least
Bruce,
You write:
Tom Knapp Wrote: ...Bruce Cohen, who is/has been an LP
candidate himself, and who has implied that at least one
candidate he's working with (Art Olivier) supports the Iraq war.
...
I have never intimated, nor implied any such thing.
Art Olivier is and always
Quoth Brian Holtz:
SC Negative externalities are a complicated issue, but I think
things like
pollution credits that can be bought and sold present a more
market-friendly
solution than coercive taxes. Perhaps you can provide some
illustrations of
why you think coercive taxation is the only
Quoth Brian Holtz:
TK Saying that micro-torts aren't the answer to negative
externalities is
like saying that meter maids aren't the answer to interstate highway
speeding. Of course they aren't -- but their cousins, class action
suits,
could be. TK
Like an externality tax, a class action
Quoth Brian Holtz:
SC Not every disincentive need be established by government, nor
must every
disincentive established by government constitute an initiation of
force.
SC
Any disincentive system would either 1) magically balance incentives
against each polluter in the same way that a
Brian,
I'm featuring your Market Liberal statement on environmental issues as
the weekly backgrounder over at ISIL's Question Earthority! blog,
and also made my weekly editorial out of the ongoing thread on
externality taxes. The subdomain for the site
(questionearthority.isil.org) seems to be on
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
This sounds backwards. The LP can't endorse or support other parties'
candidates because the Bylaws say so, not the other way around.
-
The bylaws are just a reflection of the reality that the LP styles
itself a political party -- a competitive organization in an
Quoth Brian Holtz:
TK) Paul has applied for the job of opposing the LP's presidential
candidate
on the 2008 ballot. (TK
Not exactly, because that implies it is known that 1) the LP will
nominate a
presidential candidate in 2008 and 2) that candidate will not be Ron
Paul.
While there is no
I'm just going to quote myself again for the bottom line:
I can see that we're never going to agree on all this
... and follow with two brief notes:
1) You seem to consider this an ideological question that has
something to do with Paul's qualifications. It isn't. It's a
non-ideological
Quoth Bob Giramma:
-
Who made Walter Block, or any Rothbardian, keeper of the flame?
-
Well, Dr. Block is certainly _one_ keeper of _one_ flame.
Comparisons of political ideologies to religious doctrines aren't
necessarily 100% accurate, but there are similarities.
Some Christian
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
I didn't claim that anti-war hurts the LP; I just claimed that the
evidence suggests it doesn't help the LP.)
-
Actually, what you claimed is that it doesn't GROW the LP.
Personally, I find the evidence for that proposition inconclusive due
to lack of a valid test.
Quoth Brian Holtz:
TK) I can think of at least four discrete types of Iraqi weapon
systems of
American origin that I personally saw in 1991:
- Thousands of M21 anti-tank mines
- Thousands of M16 anti-personnel mines (Bouncing Bettys)
- Several M18 anti-personnel mines (Claymores)
- One
Quoth Brian Holtz:
There is no significant crossfire between Kurds and Turks or
involving Iranians.
... and you come back to that absurd claim later. Um ... are you high
or something?
Iraqi President Jalal Talabani warned the outlawed PKK and its
Iranian offshoot the PJAK to stop attacks on
QUoth Brian Holtz:
think I didn't know what sort of list I had assembled.
DT) YOU apparently overlooked:
Benito Mussoliniexecuted in Milan
Heinrick Himmler executed at Nuremberg (DT
There are other executed war criminals that
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
This thesis about 20th century history suffers from misunderstandings
about path dependence and the difference between necessary and
-
If France hadn't demanded ruinous reparations from Germany in the 1919
Treaty of Versailles, the Weimar Republic would almost
Quoth Brian Holtz:
To be a minarchist is to be an optimist about the institutional
design of states, and to be an anarchist is to be an optimist about
human
nature.
I'm an anarchist because I'm a realist about both human nature and the
institutional design of states. To wit, I note a human
Quoth Terry:
-
Tom... If the back yard is full of pie thieves, it's nice to have a
cop in the neighborhood.
-
OK, I'll bite: If the back yard is full of pie thieves, why is it nice
to give one of those pie thieves a badge, a gun and a uniform and then
invite him to blow about how he's
Quoth Brian Holtz:
And thanks for not defending the claim that in the
context of the Iraq civil war there is significant crossfire between
Kurds
and Turks.
Why should I defend it when I don't have to? The Center for Strategic
and International Studies already has, in Iraq's Insurgency and
Quoth Brian Holtz:
BH) What percent of America's 3100 combat fatalities have involved
either
Iranians or Kurds and Turks? I've never heard of any, and I bet
it's well
under 1% if it's not zero. (BH
You also haven't heard of any of America's combat fatalities involving
Sunnis or Shia. You
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
I was in the LRC and on PlatCom, and didn't miss a PlatCom email or
meeting. I don't remember any Platform proposals that were
identifiably from the LRC. In fact, I'm sad to say I know of no
separate communication or planning among the LRC PlatCom members
(McLendon,
Conditions and policies on opposite sides of a border could NEVER vary
so widely as to make unrestricted economic immigration infeasible in
terms of detrimental effect on labor markets, public goods, natural
monopolies, and natural resources.
Quoth Brian Holtz, quoting Starchild:
SC) I'm just not convinced that watering down our platform will
accomplish
this goal. [...] than by changing the ideas of the party. (SC
I've been meaning to address this particular argument for some time --
none like the present, I guess.
The GH approach
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
We now return to your regularly scheduled fog of disinformation,
already in progress.
-
There are two sides to disinformation. Like him or not (and I'm no
fan of Infowars, the site he works for), Lepacek technically _was_ a
journalist, properly credentialed as such
Quoth Brian Holtz:
) Why is it so hard to focus our *National* platform only upon
topics that
have very broad appeal (
53% and 78% sound pretty broad to me. With only 16% to 20% of Americans
being libertarian-leaning, it would be folly for our Platform to be
silent
on this topic.
Gay
Quoth Brian Holtz, quoting Wikipedia on Tiebout sorting:
-
W) Tiebout describes municipalities within a region as offering
varying baskets of goods (government services) at a variety of prices
(tax rates). Given that individuals have differing personal valuations
on these services and varying
Quoth Brian Holtz:
BH) And yet it is the LP's radicals and anarchists who throw their
bodies in
front of any effort to endorse the use of a divide-and-conquer strategy
against Leviathan. (BH
TK) I'd be interested in seeing you support that assertion. So far, that
part of your argument has
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
Again: is it not the case that you oppose any program of
decentralization whatsoever unless it rules out any increase in the
size, scope, or power of every level of government?
-
No, that's not the case.
I oppose any program of decentralization whatsoever that
L. Knapp
Greendale, MO
-
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marketliberal/
* Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
* To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marketliberal/join
Y'all,
Tom Paine University is supposed to be a radical project to
facilitate delivery of a more radically oriented program of internal
education in the LP, but its motto is the Paine-ism it is error
only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.
So:
- I'm beta-testing the facility (an
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
I've only recently recognized this bizarre taboo held by radicals:
that there are policy compromises we might recognize as the most
liberty-maximizing ones available, but we must be demure and
coquettish and never be so forward as to ask for said compromises.
-
It's
-
Pennsylvania Consolidated Statute ยง 3923, Theft by extortion --
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of theft if he intentionally
obtains or withholds property of another by threatening to:
1. commit another criminal offense;
2. accuse anyone of a criminal offense;
3. expose any secret
QUoth Bob Capozzi:
-
What is perhaps more interesting to me, Brian, is that we Reformers
provide and encourage dialog with our Radical brothers and sisters,
and allow them to share their thoughts on our discussion listserv.
Apparently things are more controlled and exclusive on the
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
TK) You detect an apparent variation of list purpose/policy. The
moderator of the LPRadicals list treats that list as an
organization/project tool for LP radicals, to the exclusion of the
list's use as a venue for radical v. reformer debate. (TK
That's their story and
In 1998, the producers of the South Park satire television
commercial for Steve Kubby's California gubernatorial campaign won a
Pollie -- the political advertising equivalent of the Oscar.
We've come a long way since then, especially in the ability to pump
video through the Internet and direct to
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
I agree with Tom Knapp that the delegates in Denver should have all
the information they need to evaluate the agendas of the Radical and
Reform caucuses. I'll contribute the remaining $100 to the Radical
Caucus booth if the Caucus endorses the following pledge and makes
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
TK) The statement is not still in effect because it never was in
effect (TK
Sounds like your dispute is with the LNC, not me.
-
I'm unaware of any dispute at all.
It would not surprise me if Barbara Boxer frequently muttered Al Gore
is REALLY the president while
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
Sounds like your dispute has expanded to include whoever at LP News
decided that such LNC resolutions -- I mean, mutterings -- and their
retractions are worthy of front-page treatment over multiple issues.
-
Well, before I didn't _have_ a dispute. Now you're pointing
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
TK) in point of fact, every convention subsequent to the LNC's
illegitimate/non-authoritative proclamation has affirmed the bylaws
rather than the LNC's ad hoc alteration thereof (TK
I'm not aware that each NatCon formally affirms the Bylaws (e.g. like
Platform
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
(We can negotiate over the details of the pledge if necessary, but
each element of it follows straightforwardly from an absolute
commitment to never endorse the initiation of force.)
-
I'll be hitting each point of your proposed pledge from my own
perspective, but
Only Ron Paul knows whether or not Ron Paul is a homophobic bigot.
His positions and policy proposals, however, are a matter of public
record, and there is absolutely no doubt that those positions and
policy proposals are homophobic and bigoted ... and therefore the
distinction between Ron Paul
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
It's pretty bizarre that LP radicals would object to this press release.
-
Not really.
-
It seems that as anarchists they cannot allow themselves to endorse
any action of the tax-financed U.S. military, no matter how laudable.
-
Not all LP radicals are
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
TK) even as an anarchist, I would have been able to endorse a proper
course of military action in Afghanistan, and in fact gave the rough
outline of such an endorsable course (TK
I thought you oppose increasing the size, scope or power of
government at any level or for
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
it's quite inaccurate to say I believe in gun control. What I
believe in is A-bomb control, mustard gas control, grenade control,
Stinger missile control, smallpox bullet control, and yes, machine gun
control.
-
Rather than approaching this from an ideological
Quoth Allen Rice:
This analysis is much too blithe, Tom, much too black and white.
Does the following originate from a libertarian or a conservative?
Unless my memory fails me, the quote is from 1964 Republican
presidential candidate Barry Goldwater. Goldwater authored a book on
his
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
[America's constitutional republican framework] has been increasing
personal and civil liberties almost monotonically for two centuries
-
Do you care to provide any actual evidence for that mantra -- at least
for the almost monotonically part?
-
we are among the
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
Almost all of political ethics is in effect defined by edge cases.
-
It does not follow from the fact that almost all political ethicists
define their proposed systems on the basis of edge cases that edge
cases are the proper tools for defining a correct political
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
TK) The central mistake of _any_ political philosophy _may_ be
believing that a large set of moral lessons which can be drawn from
the interactions of _any_ particular group will easily generalize to
_all_ groups. (TK
Indeed, that's why I'm extremely suspicious of any
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
LOL. There's no political power up for grabs here. If anything, we
LP leaders who support Paul are running the risk of weakening the LP
in the short term, and thus reducing our own power (such as it is).
It's much more accurate to say that some people are to a certain
Below my signature, please find an open letter from Steve Kubby to his
fellow Libertarians, dated 12/01/07.
Best regards,
Tom Knapp
Communications Director
Kubby for President
Dear friends,
As decision time for the Libertarian Party's 2008 presidential
nomination draws closer, the gloves are
Quoth Brian Holtz:
This opportunity is so unique that I'll pay that $200 bounty
for a position that ANY of these five parties could take (but hasn't
yet) where both 60% of their members and 60% of Americans support it
and it is not already staked out by any of the other four parties.I
don't
Wes,
You write:
Regarding my earlier post on abortion, my point was that even those
who are opposed to it will like the alternative even less. You give
the government the power to outlaw it and you will have even more of
a socialist nanny state than we have now. Which means creating
another
Quoth Wes Carr:
Congress is pushing NASA to keep the shuttle flying till 2015, five
years past it's retirement date. Those idiots are going to get more
people killed, and if it happens the blame will fall on NASA and
not the politicians. Every shuttle launch takes funds away from the
Quoth Brian Holtz:
) http://www.campaignsitebuilder.com/ (
Nice. That seems to have more features, and a lower price, than
campaignhighway.com. I'm especially intrigued by the bulk email
feature,
and wonder if it can send to the thousands of email addresses in a
candidate's voter
Excerpt/link for those who might be interested:
-BEGIN EXCERPT-
I'm Misesian to the extent that I recognize the applicability of
calculation problems. I can't tell you whether or not three thwarted
border crossings, two criminal charges for consensual acts of sodomy
between consenting
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
I'll grant you this much: when you can take an anarchistic scathing
Paul critic (Tom Knapp) and a flamboyantly radical Paul cheerleader
(Starchild) and a minivan-driving LP reform leader (moi)
-
You know, that recurring theme of yours bothers me. Rumors to the
Quoth Brian Holtz:
BM) As for what is libertarian, it still remains unanswered. (BM
The answer is at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marketliberal/message/1976.
It doesn't involve the Nolan chart.
It's also not the answer. It's a list of competing answers and
unsupported claims (such as the
Quoth Brian Holtz:
LP radicals -- like Tom Knapp, Susan Hogarth, and perhaps the
oh-so-conflicted Angela Keaton -- are immune to his Svengali-like
powers of moderation.
The Libertarian National Committee voted last weekend to endorse Paul
for the presidency by making him the only LNC-invitee
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
Oddly, the spitting druid who had his LP gubernatorial nomination
rescinded got 2.1% in 2002, while 2008 presidential candidate Steve
Kubby got 0.9% running for governor in 1998. To Tom Knapp: you should
have a response ready if an opponent cites this comparison to
Quoth Allen Rice:
Yes, mentioning Olivier's feeble election returns was a cheap shot.
Intentionally, and, in my opinion deservedly, so.
If an action is being suggested, in this case temporarily switching
registration to vote for the most effective libertarian candidate in
the
Quoth Brian Holtz:
For the candidates we cover, here are the number of hits
returned by a Google News search on 2007-2008 for the candidate name
and the keyword libertarian:
16 Root
13 Kubby
9 Phillies
2 Smith
The same search for Ron Paul yields 1,210 hits.
The fact is that none of the LP
Quoth Brian Holtz:
I've criticized the WSPP not only for its brevity but also for ruling
out many of the proposals for decentralization and defederalization
that bother moderate and radical libertarians support.
The WSPP doesn't rule out anything. It simply lays out criteria for
what the party
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
TK) In terms of long-range what would my libertopia look like?
thinking, I haven't seen any great interest from him -- he's in
presidential candidate mode right now, and his focus is on what could
I accomplish if elected?(TK
Right, and I want to know: what kinds of
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
Suppressing dissent on their forum may be a lot of things, but it's
not dishonest. Don't flatter their forum by being bitter for being
censored there. Censorship is the highest honor an ideological
opponent can pay you. Wear that medal with grace.
-
It's impossible
Quoth Brian Holtz:
I was a member of the group.
No, you weren't -- at least not substantively, although the Yahoo!
Groups setup does coincidentally refer to list subscribers as
members. You were a subscriber to the group's (i.e. the Libertarian
Party Radical Caucus's) list, not a member of the
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
What Brian Holtz quoted was the dictionary definition of 'censor'
-
Everyone has bad habits. One of yours is quoting a dictionary
definition of something, then blithely pretending that what you just
quoted was the dictionary definition of that thing.
Sometimes what
Quoth Brian Holtz:
TK) Merriam-Webster DOES reflect the governmental context of the word
censor. Your second-tier designated American Heritage Dictionary
also
reflects that context. (TK
Non-responsive. Your claim above stands refuted.
Far, far, from it. The ACTUAL entry, as opposed to
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
FYI, here is some input from an Outright Y! Group member (who was
apparently deterred from saying this on the Outright Group itself, but
whose support I nevertheless appreciate, and who I hope doesn't mind
if this outs him to the Outright authorities)
-
If by
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
No thanks, I wouldn't stoop to debate on any radicals forum that would
have me as a member. :-)
-
What's the matter, Colonel Sanders ... chicken?
I confess that I hadn't pegged you as being willing to argue only so
long as you knew you would be prevented from
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
TK) Any radical shots I have to take, including return fire, I'll take
at LPRadicals-Debate. (TK
Why only there? What's the matter Colonel Sanders ... chicken? :-)
But far be it from me to tease you for graciously conceding me what
will appear to so many (including
Quoth Brian Holtz, quoting Brian Miller:
-
BM) Meanwhile, Barack Obama has been wildly successful at peeling off
the new voters and voters seeking change that Libertarians should have
been winning. [...] Meanwhile, voters will likely have a choice
between tax-borrow-and-spend Big Mommy
Brian (Miller) has a habit of seeing/hearing people say/do what he
wants them to have said/done. But some of the material is damning is
understatement par excellence ...
... and the worst of it is that Paul continues to indulge in the
Clinton/Reno version of taking responsibility, which amounts
Wes, you write:
For more proof that there are no differences between Republicans
and Democrats, Congress just got a $4000 raise up to $169,300 a
year. I wonder how many of them would vote themselves pay cuts, or
live on the salries of the people they represent. If you want to
cut taxes, this
Quoth Brian Holtz:
The most bizarre thing about this whole sorry episode is the
deafening silence coming from Ron Paul gadfly and disgruntled ex-aide
Eric Dondero, whose extensive archive of movement literature would
presumably have included some of these newsletters. Is he just sulking
that
Quoth dragonlord_kfb@ ==
This is not even taking into consideration that [Paul] has already
said he did not write those articles in the first place.
Well, yes, he's said that. On the other hand, as of 1996, he said that
he DID write them. And that's part of the dilemma Paul is up against.
One
Quoth Brian Holtz:
One of my strongest reservations about my recent
conversion to hardcore geolibertarianism is why it doesn't have higher
mindshare among libertarian intellectuals.
That's an easy question to answer: The Georgist theory of property in
land is radical in the sense that it goes
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
01/25/08
POC Thomas L. Knapp
314-705-3042
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
LIBERTARIAN BEATS BUSH TO STATE OF THE UNION PUNCH
San Francisco, CA (PRWEB) January 25, 2008 -- Next week, President
George W. Bush will deliver his State of the Union address to a joint
session of Congress, says
Quoth Brian Holtz:
In today's California LP presidential beauty contest, I predict that
Wayne Allyn Root will come in a clear first, and that George
Phillies
will edge native son Steve Kubby. Even here in the Bay Area, I don't
perceive a lot of the favoritism one would expect in the
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
Whether free trade is good for workers in developing countries is not
really debated any more by academic economists of any ideological
persuasion.
-
It is, however, still debated by Libertarian presidential nomination
candidates.
Steve Kubby:
The best incentive
Missouri:
With 3,205 of 3,371 precincts reporting, uncommitted is victorious
at 46.9%. The first name on the ballot, Wayne Root, is at 17.6%,
followed by Steve Kubby at 9.6% and George Phillies at 8.1%. Of
course, less than 2,000 votes have been cast in the Missouri primary
and the separation
Quoth Rob Power:
Outright Libertarians will be joining the coalition calling
on the national delegates in Denver to reject the Platform Committee's
proposal. It will take a 2/3 vote of the delegates to remove the
Platform Committee's report from the agenda and replace it with the
Restoration
Quoth Brian Holtz:
-
You anarchists are always trying to put us minarchists on a slippery
slope to nanny-statism (or worse), but when I try to point out the
slippery slope from anarchism to anti-partyarchism, you radicals --
Hogarth, Gregory, Starchild, even Knapp -- clam up.
-
Sorry if
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