Re: [Marxism] Building for a Socialist Brexit

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Maybe John would like to respond to Tuck’s histroically-based argument that 
Brexit responds to working-class interests.


> On Jul 11, 2018, at 6:18 PM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I may be mistaken, but I do believe that Marx died well before the EU came 
> into existence.
> 
> Of course, this is a snarky way of saying that he was writing about an 
> entirely different period in the development of capitalism. The EU is a 
> symptom of the problem; it's not the problem itself.
> 
> Maybe Carl would like to respond to the main points of my comments instead of 
> citing an article from "Dissent" (from what?) magazine.
> 
> John Reimann
> 
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Carl G. Estabrook  > wrote:
> A weel-known socialist might disagree with you. Marx might think it 
> worthwhile to be free of EU ‘constitutionalism’:
> 
> https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit 
> 
> 
> —CGE
> 
> 
>> On Jul 11, 2018, at 3:57 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>> mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:
>> "What we now need is a socialist Brexit." Yes, and what the jumper from the
>> Golden Gate Bridge needed was the suspension of the laws of gravity.
>> Unfortunately for both the jumper and the "Lexiteers", I'm not sure which
>> is less likely.
>> 
>> A lot of things can be said and a lot denied about the Brexit vote. One
>> thing that cannot be denied with any degree of truth is that it was a right
>> wing, anti-immigrant vote. Sure, some - maybe most - of the workers who
>> voted for Brexit may not have been chauvinists, but every single interview
>> I saw of Brexit voters, including some pro-Brexit interviews, showed the
>> workers as saying that first and foremost the reason they voted for Brexit
>> was immigration.
>> 
>> The entire Brexit vote was predicated on the idea that workers would be
>> better off under the rule of British capitalism vs. European capitalism.
>> This means that British workers should ally themselves with with the
>> British capitalist class. Inevitably, this means at the cost of allying
>> itself with the European working class.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, the anti-Brexit campaign limited itself in this sense: It
>> wasn't enough to campaign *against *Brexit; it was and is necessary to link
>> that with a campaign *for* something. That "something" was and is
>> pan-European working class unity and a pan-European campaign for a
>> region-wide minimum wage, region-wide minimum social safety net, etc. The
>> Brexit vote makes that all the more difficult.
>> 
>> As far as the issue of the EU enforcing austerity: We should remember
>> Marx's comment that law represents established fact. So do the EU mandates,
>> and the established fact is that EU mandates or not, global capitalism
>> requires national austerity. Show me one single capitalist government - EU
>> member or not - that is not enforcing this sort of austerity.
>> 
>> The "left" can comfort itself with "Lexit" all it likes. It remains nothing
>> but a nice fairy tale which was and is preordained to come into existence
>> as much as is the tale of Cinderella.
>> 
>> John Reimann
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> “In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” from "The Black Jacobins" by 
> C. L. R. James
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com  
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Re: [Marxism] Building for a Socialist Brexit

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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A weel-known socialist might disagree with you. Marx might think it worthwhile 
to be free of EU ‘constitutionalism’:

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit 


—CGE


> On Jul 11, 2018, at 3:57 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> "What we now need is a socialist Brexit." Yes, and what the jumper from the
> Golden Gate Bridge needed was the suspension of the laws of gravity.
> Unfortunately for both the jumper and the "Lexiteers", I'm not sure which
> is less likely.
> 
> A lot of things can be said and a lot denied about the Brexit vote. One
> thing that cannot be denied with any degree of truth is that it was a right
> wing, anti-immigrant vote. Sure, some - maybe most - of the workers who
> voted for Brexit may not have been chauvinists, but every single interview
> I saw of Brexit voters, including some pro-Brexit interviews, showed the
> workers as saying that first and foremost the reason they voted for Brexit
> was immigration.
> 
> The entire Brexit vote was predicated on the idea that workers would be
> better off under the rule of British capitalism vs. European capitalism.
> This means that British workers should ally themselves with with the
> British capitalist class. Inevitably, this means at the cost of allying
> itself with the European working class.
> 
> Unfortunately, the anti-Brexit campaign limited itself in this sense: It
> wasn't enough to campaign *against *Brexit; it was and is necessary to link
> that with a campaign *for* something. That "something" was and is
> pan-European working class unity and a pan-European campaign for a
> region-wide minimum wage, region-wide minimum social safety net, etc. The
> Brexit vote makes that all the more difficult.
> 
> As far as the issue of the EU enforcing austerity: We should remember
> Marx's comment that law represents established fact. So do the EU mandates,
> and the established fact is that EU mandates or not, global capitalism
> requires national austerity. Show me one single capitalist government - EU
> member or not - that is not enforcing this sort of austerity.
> 
> The "left" can comfort itself with "Lexit" all it likes. It remains nothing
> but a nice fairy tale which was and is preordained to come into existence
> as much as is the tale of Cinderella.
> 
> John Reimann
> _
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Re: [Marxism] The Red-Brown zombie plague

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Louis, the Lega has also called for the lifting of US sanctions on Russia and 
resisted the US use of Italy for war provocations.

EU neoliberalism is a real enemy of the international working class; the 
red-brown alliance (as the subject line perhaps unintentionally suggests) is a 
chimera.


> On May 29, 2018, at 3:47 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
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> 
> On 5/29/18 4:34 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism wrote:
>> Socialists should support Brexit (some did) and the populist coalition just 
>> overthrown by a presidential coup in Italy.
> 
> Carl, you are aware that the Northern League in Italy, the 5 Star's coalition 
> partner is an ultraright, racist outfit? I gather this doesn't matter to you 
> as a Marxist-Trumpist.
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Re: [Marxism] The Red-Brown zombie plague

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Socialists should support Brexit (some did) and the populist coalition just 
overthrown by a presidential coup in Italy.

To do otherwise is to support the neoliberal EU, that effected the coup.

See e.g. Richard Tuck, ’The Left Case for Brexit,’ 
>. 

—CGE

> On May 29, 2018, at 3:02 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> In today's paper, there are reports about Italy's inability to form a new
> government. the leader of Italy's far right League is quoted as saying “The
> gravest fact is that the president of the republic chose the European
> markets ahead of the Italian people.” In other words, he is posing as the
> only force that opposes the neoliberal economic attacks that are
> coordinated by the EU. The fact that any individual nation is subject to
> these attacks today, regardless of whether they're in the EU or any other
> economic bloc, is of course obscured. So, what happens is that the far
> right is seen as the only real force to oppose neoliberalism.
> 
> Greek workers tried to fight it through Syriza, and we all saw how that
> worked out.
> 
> On top of that is the "demise of the nation state
> "
> as that article in the Guardian pointed out. (If you haven't read that
> article, you should.) Capitalism in the industrialized world has its
> political base through the nation state. Nearly every member of any nation-
> whether it's the US, Germany, or even Luxembourg - identifies first and
> foremost as being a citizen of "their" nation. Now, with the globalization
> of capitalism as well as the huge masses of refugees being driven to Europe
> and elsewhere, the native-born of each country feels - correctly - that
> "their" nation is crumbling. In the near total absence of any truly
> international socialist alternative, increasing numbers are being driven to
> seek a return to the "good old days" of relative security and stability.
> (Or so they thought.)
> 
> These two developments mean that a further rise of right wing nationalism,
> and even fascism, seem to be nearly inevitable.
> 
> Paralleling that is the theoretical collapse and the opportunism of much of
> the socialist left. Much of it, for example, supported the nationalist
> "solution" of Brexit. It's hard to see, therefore, why there won't be a
> continued overlap, in fact an increased overlap, between these sectors of
> the left and the far right. In other words, the red brown alliance.
> 
> John Reimann
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Re: [Marxism] Russia Endorses Putin as a Trusted Leader While Washington and London Condemn Him (Again) | The Nation

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Seems accurate and unobjectionable. What’s wrong with tit?


> On Mar 23, 2018, at 4:08 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
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> 
> Stephen F. Cohen, what a clown.
> 
> https://www.thenation.com/article/russia-endorses-putin-as-trusted-leader-while-washington-and-london-condemn-him-again/
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[Marxism] The situation in Syria

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/03/14/syrias-war-of-ethnic-cleansing/
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Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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I think all US troops (and weapons) should be withdrawn from Syria (and Iraq). 
Don’t you?

And the US should insist its 'NATO ally,’ Turkey, leave as well. 


> On Mar 14, 2018, at 10:21 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So, in other words, Carl Estabrook has no objection to US troops in Rojava. 
> Nor, I take it, to the US bombing of Raqqa in preparation for the Kurdish 
> forces to take over that area. Some "anti US imperialism"!
> 
> It leads to another question: Does he have any opposition to the US's role in 
> Mosul?
> 
> John Reimann
> 
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:11 AM, Carl G. Estabrook  > wrote:
> I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate, and the (Syrian) Kurds should be 
> part of the general peace in Syria that the Russians have been trying to 
> arrange - and that the US has been frustrating. Rojava has asked for Damascus 
> troops to aid its battle against the Turks invading Afrin, thereby 
> acknowledging its participation in the government of Syria.
> 
> Obama’s attack on Syria is comparable to Clinton’s attack on Serbia, another 
> less than admirable regime where the US 'presence' was illegitimate. —CGE
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 9:36 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I note that Carl skirts the question of whether he calls for the US to stop 
>> arming and aiding the Kurds (including having US troops in their territory.) 
>> That, after all, is the real main thrust of US involvement. But it also 
>> leads to another question: Does Karl consider the PYD control over Rojava to 
>> be legitimate? In that case, then their having invited in the US troops in 
>> makes the US presence "legitimate".
>> 
>> Or take another example: The Mexican and Colombian governments have 
>> "invited" US forces in to spray huge swaths of land to get rid of poppy and 
>> marijuana crops. I suppose that makes their actions there "legitimate" too?
>> 
>> This whole claim about "legitimace" or "legality" really shows how far the 
>> apologists for Assad & Putin have strayed from the most basic socialist 
>> ideals. Here you have a brutal, repressive regime, one that has been a 
>> stooge for the World Bank and whose economic policies could have been taken 
>> straight out of the pages of "The Shock Doctrine", one that survives by 
>> bombing and gassing its own population - never mind mass torture - and it 
>> asks for military help from another right wing regime. Since the laws of 
>> capitalist legality make that OK, then according to Estabrook and similar 
>> people, there's nothing to be argued with.
>> 
>> John Reimann
>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Carl G. Estabrook > > wrote:
>> US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for its 
>> NATO ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.
>> 
>> Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish 
>> action in Syria.
>> 
>> 
>> > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>> > *
>> >
>> >
>> > I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My 
>> > response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia 
>> > and Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking: 
>> > Since the US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who 
>> > are uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their 
>> > position? Are they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding 
>> > the Kurds? Does anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military 
>> > action in Raqqa.)
>> >
>> > John Reimann
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> > _
>> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm 
>> > 
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>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> “How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone 
>> willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? 

Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate, and the (Syrian) Kurds should be 
part of the general peace in Syria that the Russians have been trying to 
arrange - and that the US has been frustrating. Rojava has asked for Damascus 
troops to aid its battle against the Turks invading Afrin, thereby 
acknowledging its participation in the government of Syria.

Obama’s attack on Syria is comparable to Clinton’s attack on Serbia, another 
less than admirable regime where the US 'presence' was illegitimate. —CGE


> On Mar 14, 2018, at 9:36 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
> 
> I note that Carl skirts the question of whether he calls for the US to stop 
> arming and aiding the Kurds (including having US troops in their territory.) 
> That, after all, is the real main thrust of US involvement. But it also leads 
> to another question: Does Karl consider the PYD control over Rojava to be 
> legitimate? In that case, then their having invited in the US troops in makes 
> the US presence "legitimate".
> 
> Or take another example: The Mexican and Colombian governments have "invited" 
> US forces in to spray huge swaths of land to get rid of poppy and marijuana 
> crops. I suppose that makes their actions there "legitimate" too?
> 
> This whole claim about "legitimace" or "legality" really shows how far the 
> apologists for Assad & Putin have strayed from the most basic socialist 
> ideals. Here you have a brutal, repressive regime, one that has been a stooge 
> for the World Bank and whose economic policies could have been taken straight 
> out of the pages of "The Shock Doctrine", one that survives by bombing and 
> gassing its own population - never mind mass torture - and it asks for 
> military help from another right wing regime. Since the laws of capitalist 
> legality make that OK, then according to Estabrook and similar people, 
> there's nothing to be argued with.
> 
> John Reimann
> 
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Carl G. Estabrook  > wrote:
> US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for its 
> NATO ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.
> 
> Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish 
> action in Syria.
> 
> 
> > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism 
> > > wrote:
> >
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> >
> >
> > I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My 
> > response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia 
> > and Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking: 
> > Since the US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who are 
> > uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their position? Are 
> > they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding the Kurds? Does 
> > anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military action in Raqqa.)
> >
> > John Reimann
> > Sent from my iPad
> > _
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> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> “How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone 
> willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine 
> sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us 
> thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?” Sophie Scholl, 
> executed by the Nazis 2/22/1943. She was 21 years old.
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com  
> also on Facebook

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Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for its NATO 
ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.

Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish action 
in Syria.

 
> On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> 
> I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My 
> response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia and 
> Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking: Since the 
> US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who are 
> uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their position? Are 
> they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding the Kurds? Does 
> anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military action in Raqqa.)
> 
> John Reimann 
> Sent from my iPad
> _
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How to change the course of human history | Eurozine

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The 20th c. version  of the argument was set off by Marshall Sahlins a 
half-century ago in "Notes on the Original Affluent Society,” in Man the 
Hunter, ed. R.B. Lee and I. DeVore 
>. Twenty years later 
Ernest Gellner extended the account in Plough, Sword and Book.


> On Mar 3, 2018, at 6:55 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> An odd analysis by David Graeber and David Wengrow that challenges what they 
> describe as the Rousseauan theory of history, which supposedly romanticizes 
> hunting and gathering societies and sees agriculture as a kind of original 
> sin that leads to class society. It is not just Rousseau that puts forward 
> such an analysis, of course. It is also Marxism as anybody who has read 
> "Origins of the Family" can attest.
> 
> https://www.eurozine.com/change-course-human-history/
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The Brexit vote (“leave”) was in fact the right vote for the British working 
class, as Richard Tuck explains:

>. —CGE


> On Jan 23, 2018, at 2:18 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> In the first place, the Democrats did not "lose their spine". They simply
> represent their class - the capitalist class. The fact that they
> historically have done so in a different way from the Republicans - by
> drawing in potential independent forces, especially working class forces -
> doesn't change this in the slightest.
> 
> In the second place, I think this study makes the classic mistake of
> assuming that association means causality. In other words, just because a
> handful of mid-Western states suffered an unusually high rate of casualties
> in recent and ongoing wars and that these states voted for Trump doesn't
> mean that the one caused the other. I think there is a much more likely
> cause:
> 
> Because of the drying up of industrial jobs, these states have suffered a
> high rate of unemployment and poverty. This has been the cause of higher
> enlistment rates in the US military as well as the cause (in a twisted way)
> of the vote for Trump. I'd propose an associated factor: The destruction of
> the industrial working class has had a disastrous effect on the
> consciousness of those former industrial workers and their families. It's
> been a process similar to the destruction of the coal mining industry in
> Britain, which destruction decimated the class consciousness and led to the
> Brexit vote.
> 
> John Reimann
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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First link that came to hand. The study is 

“Battlefield Casualties and Ballot Box Defeat: Did the Bush-Obama Wars Cost 
Clinton the White House?” by Francis Shen, associate professor at the 
University of Minnesota Law School, and Dougas Kriner, a political science 
professor at Boston University.


> On Jan 23, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
> 
> On 1/23/18 8:04 AM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:
>> What (some) people heard were attacks on the neocon (more war) and 
>> neoliberal (more inequality) policies of the Obama-Clinton administration: 
>> e.g.,
>> .
> 
> Don't forget to scrub your behind with anti-bacterial soap after visiting 
> Zero Hedge.


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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What (some) people heard were attacks on the neocon (more war) and neoliberal 
(more inequality) policies of the Obama-Clinton administration: e.g., 

<https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-11/new-study-suggests-war-lust-may-have-cost-hillary-clinton-election
 
<https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-11/new-study-suggests-war-lust-may-have-cost-hillary-clinton-election>>.

 
> On Jan 23, 2018, at 6:47 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
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> *****************
> 
> On 1/23/18 7:39 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism wrote:
>> Trump, almost by accident, expressed the real cause: exploitation. He was 
>> the first major party presidential candidate to to attack - however 
>> incoherently - the neoliberal (and neocon) policies that characterized all 
>> administrations from Carter's on.
> 
> Carl, this is utter nonsense. Trump's entire career was based on neoliberal 
> tenets and especially the use of super-exploited undocuemtned workers.
> 
> He was no different from Obama who was elected by running "incoherently" 
> against Hillary Clinton's neoliberalism in the 2007 primary.
> 
> To understand what politicians stand for as opposed to campaign rhetoric, you 
> have to dig deeper. I learned that lesson after voting for the "peace 
> candidate" in 1964.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Democrats Lost Their Spine | Time

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The Congressional Democrats posturing around the 'Dreamers' and government 
shutdown are running a zombie Clinton campaign.

After 40 years of growing and accelerating inequality in America, the HRC 
campaign tried to build a majority by pretending that social distress was the 
result of discrimination.

Trump, almost by accident, expressed the real cause: exploitation. He was the 
first major party presidential candidate to to attack - however incoherently - 
the neoliberal (and neocon) policies that characterized all administrations 
from Carter's on.

How right he was, is demonstrated by the furious reaction of the political 
establishment - which has had the effect of insuring that the Trump 
administration continues the neolib and neocon policies of the previous 
administration (more war and more inequality) - not by defending those polices 
openly (which would court 'populist' opposition) but by furiously attacking his 
character (to the extent of the Russiagate/'Putin's puppet' fantasy).

With the Dreamers, the Democrats have found a small aggrieved group whose 
(real) grievances they can champion, while they cooperate with the Republicans 
in support of widespread exploitative policies - flat wages and the lack of 
social supports (healthcare, education, etc.) taken for granted in other 
countries.

—CGE
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Re: [Marxism] Two videos from yesterday, Jan. 20, in Oakland

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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More working-class victories:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/01/22/its-time-to-call-economic-sanctions-what-they-are-war-crimes/
 



> On Jan 21, 2018, at 10:09 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> In the first place, many working class movements start with movements like
> this. Malcolm X made a similar criticism of the March on Washington. He was
> partly right, but his criticism was one sided. I don't know if C.G.
> Estabrook actually watched the video, but I made a similar analysis of the
> general politics of the march. But it's important to see how a more
> independent, working class movement can develop. I wouldn't expect Ajamu
> Baraka, who is a supporter of the butcher Assad, to have any sense of this
> sort of thing.
> 
> On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook 
> wrote:
> 
>> The ‘women's march' was in fact a Democratic party/Trump-is-Putin’s-puppet
>> march.
>> 
>> There’s no reason to take these people seriously.
>> 
>> Ajamu Baraka writes correctly, "As the democrat party and its allied
>> organization prepare for another depoliticized spectacle in D.C., Cindy
>> Sheehan asks where is the anti-war and peace issue. Is war not a feminist
>> and social justice issue? Who protects the world against the U.S.?"
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2018, at 4:04 PM, John Reimann via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Here are 2 videos from January 20 here in Oakland.
>>> 
>>> The first is of the massive women's march, which was also an anti-Trump
>>> march.
>>> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2018/01/21/womens-march-oakland-2018/
>>> 
>>> This next is of a group of restaurant workers who had walked off the job
>> in
>>> protest against the sexual harassment by the owner of the restaurant,
>>> Charlie Hallowell.
>>> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2018/01/21/boot-and-shoe-
>> restaurant-workers-walk-off-job/
>>> 
>>> John Reimann

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Re: [Marxism] Two videos from yesterday, Jan. 20, in Oakland

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The ‘women's march' was in fact a Democratic party/Trump-is-Putin’s-puppet 
march.

There’s no reason to take these people seriously.

Ajamu Baraka writes correctly, "As the democrat party and its allied 
organization prepare for another depoliticized spectacle in D.C., Cindy Sheehan 
asks where is the anti-war and peace issue. Is war not a feminist and social 
justice issue? Who protects the world against the U.S.?"

> On Jan 21, 2018, at 4:04 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> Here are 2 videos from January 20 here in Oakland.
> 
> The first is of the massive women's march, which was also an anti-Trump
> march.
> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2018/01/21/womens-march-oakland-2018/
> 
> This next is of a group of restaurant workers who had walked off the job in
> protest against the sexual harassment by the owner of the restaurant,
> Charlie Hallowell.
> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2018/01/21/boot-and-shoe-restaurant-workers-walk-off-job/
> 
> John Reimann
> 
> 
> -- 
> "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
> Assata Shakur
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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Re: [Marxism] shooting in Las Vegas

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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What sort of gun legislation would have prevented the Las Vegas shooting? Or 
e.g. the Sandy Hook massacre?

I can’t think of any, short of prohibiting the private ownership of guns.

Isn’t that what Australia did, after the shootings in Tasmania?


> On Oct 2, 2017, at 5:13 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
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> 
> "On Monday, Aug. 25, a gunman opened fire on clients in a library in
> Clovis, New Mexico, killing two and wounding four others. That marked the 
> 244th
> mass shooting of 2017
> ,
> and that was before the horror in Las Vegas in which, as of this writing,
> 58 people have been confirmed dead and over 500 wounded. This and many
> other such acts have caused uncountable heart ache, just as similar actions
> have all around the world. Whether it be the grieving families of those
> lost in Las Vegas, or of the Rohingya in Myanmar or the survivors of the
> 500,000 killed in Syria, suffering is suffering, and the country in which
> it occurs makes no difference. But in the case of the Las Vegas shooter,
> there are particular political ramifications, and if the “senseless” deaths
> are to mean anything, we must consider these politics.
> 
> Just days before the Las Vegas terrorist act, Republicans introduced a bill
> in Congress legalizing gun silencers. The bill would also mean that a
> resident in a state where concealed carry is legal for (nearly) anybody
> could carry a concealed weapon into another state where it is illegal. This
> bill is in some ways the equivalent of the Supreme Court’s Dred Scott
> decision of 1857. In that case, the Supreme Court determined that a slave
> owner could bring his or her slaves into a state where slavery was outlawed
> and those slaves would remain in that status.
> 
> 
> *Hypocrisy*So where were all the hypocritical cries of “states’ rights”
> when that bill was introduced?
> 
> Speaking of hypocrisy: On Monday, Trump went onto TV to “address the
> nation” on the massacre in Las Vegas. He used the massacre to reinforce his
> political agenda, first of all appealing to his religious base with is talk
> about “ask(ing) got to help see you through this very dark period.” This is
> a man who has never shown the slightest religious inclination until now,
> but that is completely ignored by all the hypocritical religious fanatics
> who are happy to rely on him to enforce their political agenda. Trump also
> used this massacre to prop up support for the police, but most hypocritical
> of all was such comments as “our (national) unity cannot be shattered by
> evil. Our bonds cannot be broken by violence…. it is our love that defines
> us today — and always will, forever.”
> 
> Read more:
> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2017/10/02/las-vegas-massacre-some-thoughts-on-random-shootings-in-the-us/
> 
> -- 
> "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
> Asata Shakur
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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Re: [Marxism] Doug Henwood Dispatches Hillary and Her New Book to Remainder Bin of History | Washington Babylon

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Clinton was surely a bad candidate, but Trump was the first major party 
candidate in 40 years to attack the neoconservative and neoliberal policies 
(more war and more inequality, respectively) followed by all recent 
administrations, notably Obama's.

But the last year has seen the US political establishment turn aside those 
attacks and force the Trump administration to pursue the neolib and neocon 
policies - as HRC would have done. In that sense, she won. —CGE


> On Sep 25, 2017, at 10:19 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> http://washingtonbabylon.com/3128-2/
> 
> Doug Henwood Dispatches Hillary and Her New Book to Remainder Bin of History
> Doug Henwood
> September 25, 2017
> I’m late getting to this review. It’s partly because, unlike most reviewers, 
> I didn’t have a free pre-publication copy of Hillary’s awful book and had to 
> pay good money for it myself. [Editor’s note: We’ll pay for it, but it could 
> reduce your fee by a negligible amount. If anyone wants to pay for Doug’s 
> book let him or me know.] And when I read it, I was overcome with boredom and 
> despair and couldn’t imagine writing a standard review. But since I wrote a 
> Harper’s cover story that turned into a book on Hillary I felt like I had to 
> do it. But I’m not sure I can.
> 
> Were I to write a standard review, I might recall some of my history with 
> HRC. When I started doing research for the Harper’s article in the summer of 
> 2015, I was on a secret email list for liberal pundits called the Cabalist. I 
> was recruited as an ideological diversity hire. Never a good fit from the 
> first, relations between me and the Cabalisters deteriorated as I shared my 
> feelings about their favored candidate. I said, ideology aside, she was a 
> terrible candidate—a bad and widely un-liked politician, one whose poll 
> numbers usually fell with increased exposure, with a million scandals just 
> waiting to blow up at any minute. Add to that her miserable ideology—she 
> believed in nothing but tweaking the status quo in profoundly tedious 
> ways—and they might come to regret signing on to her still-unannounced 
> campaign.
> 
> Saying this provoked intense fury. I was accused of enabling Ted Cruz (Trump 
> was still a gleam in his own eye). When I asked them to convince me 
> otherwise, they reacted with fury, but no answers. If these Democrats—mostly 
> liberals, whatever it means to be a liberal today—whose business was making 
> and analyzing political argument, including one who wrote a book about 
> Hillary (or, more precisely, about her feelings about Hillary) couldn’t make 
> a case for her, then who could?
> 
> I was right, of course. As was everything I subsequently wrote about her—the 
> emptiness of her campaign, her shittiness as a politician, her fealty to 
> convention, all of which contributed to her disgraceful loss to the 
> abominable Trump.
> 
> Were I to write a real review, I might also point to Jonathan Allen and Amie 
> Parnes’ Shattered, the story of her dismal, meandering campaign and its 
> hilarious depictions of her staff desperately trying to invent reasons for 
> her running and coming up empty. That, and their neglect of traditional 
> campaigning strategies like polling in crucial states and knocking on 
> people’s doors and reliance instead on preposterous statistical models that 
> turned out to be fantastically wrong.
> 
> Hillary raises some of these issues in What Happened only to deny them. She 
> did have a reason for running, she assures us: because she loves to help 
> people, particularly women and children. And she did have a viable campaign 
> strategy—it’s just that no one noticed it and it proved unviable. She 
> concedes she’s deeply unpopular and untrustworthy, but just can’t understand 
> why. Several times she takes responsibility for the campaign’s mistakes—not 
> an easy thing for her to do, as anyone past the intro level of Hillary 
> Studies knows—but never for more than a sentence or three, as she quickly 
> moves from the confessional mode to blaming Comey, the Russians, the emails, 
> and misogyny. Nothing is ever really her fault; decks are always stacked 
> against her.
> 
> A few words on the misogyny question: there’s no doubt that Hillary has 
> suffered from loads of vile, sexist attacks over the decades. It’s hideous 
> stuff. But she and her acolytes have used this to deflect any legitimate 
> criticisms of her politics or personality. And her habit of making herself 
> into the rightful heir of the long and admirable line of American feminist 
> struggle since Seneca Falls is annoying and deceptive. 

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Everything Trump Does Must Be Viewed Through This Lens

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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I supported (and voted for) Stein - until her campaign began carrying water for 
the Democrats.

The neocons believed enough of Trump’s campaign speeches to fly to HRC, invent 
the fantastical Russiagate scam, and have spooks up to and including Brennan 
threaten coup to prevent his administration’s putting his critiques into 
practice. (They seem to have succeeded.)

Surely a building a revolutionary movement involves talking to people about 
that?

"People not only don't know what's happening to them, they don't even know that 
they don't know” (Chomsky).

Regards, CGE


> On Jul 27, 2017, at 3:12 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
> 
> On 7/27/17 3:55 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:
>> A list devoted to the ideas of the one who said, “...the productive forces 
>> developing in the womb of bourgeois society create the material conditions 
>> for the solution of that antagonism … arising from the social conditions of 
>> life…”?
> 
> We have had productive forces up the wazoo for a century at least. Our job is 
> building a revolutionary movement that can convert them to produce use values 
> rather than exchange values. The Trump presidency is a vicious attack on the 
> American people, from immigrants to gays to wage workers. It is also an 
> attack on our health with Monsanto getting the green light to sell a 
> carcinogenic pesticide that had been banned by the EPA. Health care will 
> disappear soon, with the crappy Obamacare going first. You can talk all you 
> want about how inadequate it is but my unemployed brother-in-law can get 
> medical care without paying a penny now. People like you, Paul Craig Roberts 
> and Michael Hudson conned yourself into believing Trump's campaign speeches 
> just like Carl Davidson conned himself into believing Obama's speeches in 
> 2007. Paul Craig Roberts and Michael Hudson seemed to have awoken from their 
> opium pipe fantasies but you seem to still be intoxicated.


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Everything Trump Does Must Be Viewed Through This Lens

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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A list devoted to the ideas of the one who said, “...the productive forces 
developing in the womb of bourgeois society create the material conditions for 
the solution of that antagonism … arising from the social conditions of life…”?


> On Jul 27, 2017, at 2:42 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
> 
> On 7/27/17 3:33 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:
>> And to see what has happened in China in the generation since Tiananmen 
>> Square, makes it difficult to deny economic development there.
> 
> Of course there is "economic development". There was "economic development" 
> in Nicaragua under Somoza. The GDP was rising dramatically as cattle ranches 
> met the market demand for fast food restaurant supplies. There was economic 
> development in South Korea under the Chaebol system. The Asian tigers were a 
> big fucking deal a while back. In Erdogan's first term, there were 
> expectations that Turkey would "take off". Thomas Friedman has an article at 
> least every 3 months about the next great thing happening somewhere in the 
> Third World.
> 
> Like I said, Carl, this is a Marxism list, not an "economic development" list.


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Everything Trump Does Must Be Viewed Through This Lens

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The US ruling class’ mad hostility to Putin arises in part from the fact that 
he scuppered the Clinton administration’s plans to turn post-Soviet Russia into 
a Third World country, a supplier of raw materials, controlled by foreign 
(mainly US) capital (vide 
>).

And to see what has happened in China in the generation since Tiananmen Square, 
makes it difficult to deny economic development there.

It’s those 'economic developments' that American capitalism finds so 
threatening - and is willing to kill a lot of people to counter. 

One might say that’s been clear since Halford Mackinder - and in the USG, since 
the Open Door Policy...

—CGE


> On Jul 27, 2017, at 2:04 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
> 
> On 7/27/17 2:40 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:
>> As they have all along, the 1% demand policies that retard Eurasian economic 
>> development and integration, which they (rightly) see as a threat to the 
>> hegemony of the US elite.
> 
> Eurasian economic development? What a joke. There is no such thing as 
> "economic development" under capitalism. This is the Marxism list, not the 
> import-substitution, post-Keynesian mailing list--in case you hadn't noticed.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Everything Trump Does Must Be Viewed Through This Lens

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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And the only way Trump can win is by striking back at the War Party, who are 
trying to drive him from office, so that they can renew the Obama-Clinton 
administration's war provocations against Russia and China. 

As they have all along, the 1% demand policies that retard Eurasian economic 
development and integration, which they (rightly) see as a threat to the 
hegemony of the US elite.

They seem quite frightened by Trump’s ending CIA support for anti-Assad Syria 
rebels: 
>.
 The Company is contemplating mutiny. 

—CGE

 
> On Jul 27, 2017, at 1:20 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> New White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci pledged to “fire 
> everybody” to stop leaks to the press and almost immediately threatened 
> Reince Priebus, implicitly accusing him of a felony. Meanwhile, the rift 
> between Trump and Attorney General Jeff Sessions suggests Sessions may be out 
> before long. What does Trump hope to gain from the purges in the highest 
> reaches of his administration?
> At this juncture the priorities of Donald Trump have winnowed down to a 
> single agenda item: saving himself and his family from legal culpability for 
> their campaign interactions with the Russians and their efforts to cover up 
> those transactions ever since. Almost everything this president does must be 
> viewed through this single lens. If you do so, you’ll find his actions 
> usually make sense.
> 
> This overriding motive explains both this week’s orchestrated staff turmoil 
> in the White House and the simultaneous assaults on the civil rights of 
> transgender American troops and all LBGTQ employees in the private workplace. 
> The primary purpose of all of it is to distract from investigations into 
> potential Trump-family criminality and to galvanize a base that Trump 
> believes will protect him against the rule of law. If you have already 
> forgotten Jared Kushner’s loophole-strewn profession of innocence from 
> Monday, that’s the point.
> 
> full: 
> http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/everything-trump-does-must-be-viewed-through-this-lens.html
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Sullivan County Newspapers

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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A few years ago I came across a collection of local newspapers from the 
Southwest (Utah, as I recall) ca. 1910.

I was surprised to see how detailed the international coverage was. European 
politics were featured in those pre-WWI days.

 
> On Jul 22, 2017, at 1:18 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
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> 
> Interesting piece from my upstate newspaper where I grew up. Like every other 
> place in the USA, people used to get their information from print newspapers 
> before there was television. My mom wrote a column for a defunct local 
> newspaper called the Republican Watchman about who was going on vacation, got 
> a Kiwanis club award, etc. It got that name because it was referring to 
> Democrats keeping an eye on the Republicans.
> 
> I had no idea, however, how many newspapers were being published in the past:
> 
> You wouldn't know it to look at the newsstands these days, but Sullivan 
> County used to have a thriving newspaper business. Dozens of weekly 
> newspapers and periodicals were spread across the towns and villages.
> There was the Monticello Adviser, the Livingston Manor Times, the Fallsburgh 
> News, the Bloomingburgh Journal and the Republican Watchman, just to name 
> five.
> 
> There are newspapers dating back to the turn of the 20th century and even 
> some stretching back since before the Civil War.
> “So many of the ways of old are now gone,” remarked Gittell. “This is one 
> more way that we can not only appreciate what was here before, but also help 
> guide ourselves away from this concept of mass homogenized culture.”
> 
> http://www.scdemocratonline.com/webpages/newsdetail.aspx?id=87b714c4-2130-4efd-b7aa-1db4d6483018
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Trump Revealed Highly Classified Intelligence to Russia, in Break With Ally, Officials Say - The New York Times

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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You’re the Maltese Falcon?!


> On May 15, 2017, at 7:40 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/17 8:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:
>> Surely you’re not defending the FBI and the CIA.
>> 
>> 
> 
> Why not? I am a long-time CIA/Mossad agent who does free-lance work for 
> George Soros, especially on chemtrail attacks against Hezbollah detachments 
> in Malta.
> 


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Trump Revealed Highly Classified Intelligence to Russia, in Break With Ally, Officials Say - The New York Times

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Surely you’re not defending the FBI and the CIA.


> On May 15, 2017, at 6:10 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
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> 
> That's what you get when you screw with the FBI and the CIA.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/15/us/politics/trump-russia-classified-information-isis.html
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Re: [Marxism] Comeytose in Washington

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Requiescat in pace.

> On May 13, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
> 
> On 5/13/17 7:37 PM, Carl G. Estabrook wrote:
>> Didn’t realize the discussion was theological. Thought it was political. 
>> Will adjust the register.
> 
> Just as theological as Hugo Chavez who said the UN General Assembly hall 
> smelled like sulfur the day after George W. Bush spoke.


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Re: [Marxism] Comeytose in Washington

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Didn’t realize the discussion was theological. Thought it was political. Will 
adjust the register.

—CGE

> On May 13, 2017, at 6:25 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> 
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> 
> On 5/13/17 6:44 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism wrote:
>> 
>> There were indications this week (in addition to to the firing of
>> Comey) that that was happening, viz.,
>> 
>> Russia -
>> <http://www.atimes.com/article/trump-ignores-status-quo-apologists-engage-russia/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.atimes.com_article_trump-2Dignores-2Dstatus-2Dquo-2Dapologists-2Dengage-2Drussia_=DwMFaQ=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0=_83oy0QOxU9hI5RfiBqzDVM6pzyRWeMrVvfD8rClZHo=gKEJ4baUBhxaaGK21VBvkm_tdBc7-hG9tIy2rZrFSGc=>>;
>> and
> 
> 
> 
> I got a chuckle out of this from the article linked above:
> 
>   Therefore, Trump has retrieved his road map from the attic. The 
> presence of Henry Kissinger in the Oval Office for an unscheduled meeting 
> with Trump just before Lavrov walked in – accompanied by the famous “Russian 
> spy” Ambassador Sergey Kislayk – has been a deliberate ‘curtain raiser’. 
> Kissinger has longstanding personal equations with Russia’s President 
> Vladimir Putin, and of course the grey cardinal of US diplomacy had 
> engineered the era of détente with the Soviet Union.
> 
> ---
> 
> So fascinating how people like Carl, Paul Craig Roberts, Michael Hudson, Mike 
> Whitney, Diana Johnstone and Boris Kagarlitsky can get so enthused over Trump 
> and Putin becoming our age's Nixon and Mao. Kissinger was key to the first 
> rapprochement and seems to be key to the new one.
> 
> Under ordinary circumstances, people on the left understand that where 
> Kissinger goes, Satan follows close behind. But when you decide to 
> automatically put a plus where Nicholas Kristof puts a minus, the results 
> stagger the imagination.
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Re: [Marxism] Comeytose in Washington

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The protests and ‘#resistance’ to Trump are largely inspired by the political 
establishment (Democrats-neocons-Pentagon-spooks etc.) who think their 
right-to-rule was illegitimately denied by Trump’s election. 

They will be even more enraged if the essential policies of their 
pro-war/pro-Wall Street politics - hostility to Russia and China - are reversed 
by the Trump administration.

There were indications this week (in addition to to the firing of Comey) that 
that was happening, viz.,

Russia - 
>;
 and

China - 
>.

—CGE


> On May 13, 2017, at 9:13 AM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> "The FBI is apparently hot on the redolent trails of lucre left by Michael
> Flynn
> 
> and Paul Manafort
> ,
> which confirms my suspicion that the real scandal isn’t Russian meddling in
> the 2016 elections but shady financial dealings by Trump’s dubious
> ensemble of associates."
> 
> From the Jacobin article. But the issue goes way beyond that. There's a
> reason why so many present and former Trump team members are tied in with
> not only the Putin regime but also with different Russian corporations
> (such as Gazprom). The reason is that Trump, himself, has longstanding and
> deep ties to Russian investors. And given the nature of Russian capitalism,
> many of these investors are outright mobsters. In other words, the Russian
> mafia. One of the most prominent is Felix Sater, but there are others too.
> Sater, a convicted stock swindler, for example had a business card that
> linked his name with Trump, traveled with Trump and is pictured with Trump.
> Yet he's so unsavory that Trump denied even remembering him.
> 
> However, let's not go all "anti-Russian". Trump's personal helicopter
> pilot, Joseph Weichselbaum, was also a convicted drug smuggler.
> 
> This is what's really scaring Trump - that any investigation into Russia's
> role in the recent US elections would tend to spill over into revelations
> of his direct financial ties. (My belief: That's the real reason Trump
> won't release his tax statements; it would reveal those ties.)
> 
> And why don't the Democrats reveal some of this? Because former Obama
> Justice Department officials as well as former FBI agents are also involved
> in this network!
> 
> See this article for the details:
> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2017/04/04/mobster-in-chief-donald-trump-life-imitates-art/
> 
> 
> John Reimann
> -- 
> "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
> Asata Shakur
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com and //
> www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Comeytose in Washington

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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http://www.atimes.com/article/trump-ignores-status-quo-apologists-engage-russia/
 
<http://www.atimes.com/article/trump-ignores-status-quo-apologists-engage-russia/>

http://www.atimes.com/article/us-decides-send-delegation-chinas-obor-summit/ 
<http://www.atimes.com/article/us-decides-send-delegation-chinas-obor-summit/>

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/12/comeytose-in-washington/ 
<http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/12/comeytose-in-washington/>



> On May 12, 2017, at 9:33 AM, Mark Lause <markala...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> There's absolutely no evidence for this . . . no more than for the idea that 
> it's all about who gets to control the captured UFOs . . . .
> 
> On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism 
> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu <mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:
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> *
> 
> The White House fired Comey because he was the point-man in the campaign of 
> the US political establishment (Democrats-neocons-spooks etc.) to prevent 
> Trump from carrying out his campaign promises of rapprochement with Russia.
> 
> 
> > On May 12, 2017, at 7:51 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
> > <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu <mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:
> >
> > The blending of hubris and stupidity on display in the Comey affair is a 
> > recipe for political comedy and legal disaster. By concocting a false story 
> > for Comey’s expulsion, the Trump team, including the President and the 
> > Attorney General, have exposed their consciousness of guilt and laid the 
> > groundwork for charges of obstruction of justice against them. If there’s 
> > anyone left in the Justice Department or the Congress with the guts to 
> > bring it. Perhaps Ralph Nader will sue, as he did in 1973, when he won a 
> > seminal verdict in federal court that Nixon’s firing of special prosecutor 
> > Archibald Cox was illegal.
> >
> > full: http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/12/comeytose-in-washington/ 
> > <http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/12/comeytose-in-washington/>
> > _
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Comeytose in Washington

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The White House fired Comey because he was the point-man in the campaign of the 
US political establishment (Democrats-neocons-spooks etc.) to prevent Trump 
from carrying out his campaign promises of rapprochement with Russia.


> On May 12, 2017, at 7:51 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> The blending of hubris and stupidity on display in the Comey affair is a 
> recipe for political comedy and legal disaster. By concocting a false story 
> for Comey’s expulsion, the Trump team, including the President and the 
> Attorney General, have exposed their consciousness of guilt and laid the 
> groundwork for charges of obstruction of justice against them. If there’s 
> anyone left in the Justice Department or the Congress with the guts to bring 
> it. Perhaps Ralph Nader will sue, as he did in 1973, when he won a seminal 
> verdict in federal court that Nixon’s firing of special prosecutor Archibald 
> Cox was illegal.
> 
> full: http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/12/comeytose-in-washington/
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Re: [Marxism] Comey Firing: US a "Failing State"

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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You could interpret that as the "war on Syria” (“his own people…”) carried out 
by Assad.

Surely Franco conducted a war on Spain. 

> On May 10, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
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> 
> On 5/10/17 5:41 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism wrote:
>> How is the war on Syria.and it is ON SYRIA.how is that not cause for 
>> outrage?
> 
> You tell me, Carl. I guess that it keeps you and Steppling up at night 
> agonizing over Assad's failure to have secured a peace in Syria that measures 
> up to Franco's in 1939.
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Re: [Marxism] Comey Firing: US a "Failing State"

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Perhaps Trump is just not so canny in furthering his own personal financial 
interests as Obama (and HRC). But does that represent a crisis of the ruling 
class?

The greatest threat to the international bourgeoisie (represented in the White 
House particularly by Gary Cohn) seems today to be populism/‘economic 
nationalism’ (represented in the White House by Steve Bannon). 

We certainly should be considering the implications of that.  Regards, Carl

 
> On May 10, 2017, at 10:15 PM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't know if Carl read the article I sent or is just responding in 
> general, but I most definitely did not mention that the Comey firing was an 
> assault on "democracy", nor did I mention anthing about Russian hacking the 
> election. I did mention Trump's financial ties to Russian 
> investors/oligarchs/mobsters, and this is simply a matter of record. It's 
> well established. And I did say that Trump is using the executive branch of 
> the US government to further his own personal financial interests at the 
> expense of the global interests of the mainstream of the US capitalist class. 
> 
> Why are we supposed to care?
> 
> Try this: If the enemy is in crisis, shouldn't we be aware of it and consider 
> its implications?
> 
> John Reimann
> 
> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Carl G. Estabrook  > wrote:
> [John Steppling] I keep reading postings about how Trump firing the head of 
> the FBI is an assault on democracy, or the American way of life, or 
> something. The front page of the Huffington Post is hysterical with cries for 
> the need to investigate Russian hacking. I have had three friends (sic) 
> refuse to discuss this with me when I questioned their sanity in believing 
> the russian hacking narrative. Not argue it...but refuse to argue it. Not 
> one, but three. There is no evidence of anything out of the ordinary here. If 
> there were, trust me we would have heard about it by now.
> 
> So what I take from this is that the white establishmentto which the 
> aforementioned friends belong, really, is in crises. If Obama had fired the 
> head of the FBI what would the reaction have been? (the answer is nothing.)
> 
> But how is the US/Saudi assault on a defenceless Yemen not an assault on 
> Democracy? I mean congress didn't authorize it did they? Or how is the orgy 
> of state murder in Arkansas...including the suppression of new evidence that 
> might have exonerated one of the men executed.how is that not an assault 
> on Democracy? How is the illegal assassination of Qadaffi not an assault on 
> Democracy or the coup orchestrated by Clinton as secretary of state in 
> Ukraine not an assault on Democracy? How is the coup in Honduras or the 
> current attacks on Venezuela not well...you get the idea. How is the war 
> on Syria.and it is ON SYRIA.how is that not cause for outrage? None 
> of these things matter to liberal America. Dead Arab 
> childrenpshaw...can't be bothered. The execution of mentally impaired 
> men, from the underclass, denied adequate representationmeh, cant be 
> bothered. BUTbut when Trump fires the head of a notoriously corrupt organ 
> of surveillance and arrest and worse.an organization founded to quell 
> dissent and rid the nation of commies and minority troublemakers..how am 
> I supposed to care exactly?…
> 
> 
> > On May 10, 2017, at 3:37 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Make no mistake, President Trump's firing of FBI director John Comey
> > represents a crisis for the US capitalist class. It's one more indication
> > that it cannot control the executive wing of its government. Trump claims
> > that he fired Comey because of the latter's handling of the investigation
> > of Hillary Clinton and his lack of repentence over this. However, just days
> > before the firing it's reported that Comey had asked for additional funds
> > to investigate alleged Russian meddling into the US elections. Such an
> > election would inevitably have opened up the financial ties between Trump
> > and Russian investors and outright mobsters.
> >
> > https://oaklandsocialist.com/2017/05/10/comey-fired-us-a-failing-state/ 
> > 
> >
> > John Reimann
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them." Asata 
> Shakur
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com  
> and 

Re: [Marxism] Comey Firing: US a "Failing State"

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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[John Steppling] I keep reading postings about how Trump firing the head of the 
FBI is an assault on democracy, or the American way of life, or something. The 
front page of the Huffington Post is hysterical with cries for the need to 
investigate Russian hacking. I have had three friends (sic) refuse to discuss 
this with me when I questioned their sanity in believing the russian hacking 
narrative. Not argue it...but refuse to argue it. Not one, but three. There is 
no evidence of anything out of the ordinary here. If there were, trust me we 
would have heard about it by now.

So what I take from this is that the white establishmentto which the 
aforementioned friends belong, really, is in crises. If Obama had fired the 
head of the FBI what would the reaction have been? (the answer is nothing.)

But how is the US/Saudi assault on a defenceless Yemen not an assault on 
Democracy? I mean congress didn't authorize it did they? Or how is the orgy of 
state murder in Arkansas...including the suppression of new evidence that might 
have exonerated one of the men executed.how is that not an assault on 
Democracy? How is the illegal assassination of Qadaffi not an assault on 
Democracy or the coup orchestrated by Clinton as secretary of state in Ukraine 
not an assault on Democracy? How is the coup in Honduras or the current attacks 
on Venezuela not well...you get the idea. How is the war on Syria.and 
it is ON SYRIA.how is that not cause for outrage? None of these things 
matter to liberal America. Dead Arab childrenpshaw...can't be bothered. The 
execution of mentally impaired men, from the underclass, denied adequate 
representationmeh, cant be bothered. BUTbut when Trump fires the head 
of a notoriously corrupt organ of surveillance and arrest and worse.an 
organization founded to quell dissent and rid the nation of commies and 
minority troublemakers..how am I supposed to care exactly?…


> On May 10, 2017, at 3:37 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> Make no mistake, President Trump's firing of FBI director John Comey
> represents a crisis for the US capitalist class. It's one more indication
> that it cannot control the executive wing of its government. Trump claims
> that he fired Comey because of the latter's handling of the investigation
> of Hillary Clinton and his lack of repentence over this. However, just days
> before the firing it's reported that Comey had asked for additional funds
> to investigate alleged Russian meddling into the US elections. Such an
> election would inevitably have opened up the financial ties between Trump
> and Russian investors and outright mobsters.
> 
> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2017/05/10/comey-fired-us-a-failing-state/
> 
> John Reimann
> 


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Re: [Marxism] What’s Wrong With Econ 101

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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I should think the best ‘Econ 101’ today would be a summary presentation of 
Piketty, “Capital in the 21st Century.”


> On Jan 23, 2017, at 10:40 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> THE CHRONICLE REVIEW
> What’s Wrong With Econ 101
> By James Kwak JANUARY 22, 2017
> 
> If you are a Wall Street master of the universe or a billionaire hedge fund 
> manager, you face the same challenge as the aristocrats and industrialists of 
> the past: How do you justify the vast economic chasm that separates you from 
> the people you pass on the street every day? Appeals to Christian theology or 
> evolutionary necessity may have worked in previous centuries, but they are 
> unlikely to be convincing today. Instead, you can turn to another source of 
> economic truth: Economics 101.
> 
> From taxes to wages to government regulation, our political discourse is 
> dominated by a lesson that economics students learn in their first semester: 
> the model of a competitive market driven by supply and demand. Introduced to 
> the world by the French mathematician Antoine-Augustin Cournot in 1838, this 
> now-ubiquitous analytical tool shows how many units of a product are demanded 
> and supplied at any given price — and how prices automatically adjust so that 
> supply exactly equals demand. This core insight dates back at least to Adam 
> Smith, who explained in his 1776 book The Wealth of Nations that market 
> prices are determined by the individual, self-interested decisions of buyers 
> and sellers.
> 
> By the late 19th century, supply and demand curves became a dominant feature 
> of economics education, thanks in large part to a textbook, Principles of 
> Economics, by the British economist Alfred Marshall. Marshall showed how 
> buyers and sellers, acting in their own interests, converge on an equilibrium 
> price that maximizes social welfare, defined narrowly as the difference 
> between the value consumers place on goods and the total cost of producing 
> those goods.
> 
> Marshall, however, rejected the idea that we should simply let markets work 
> their magic and accept whatever outcomes they produce. Instead, because 
> people differ in wealth, he argued that "aggregate satisfaction can prima 
> facie be increased by the distribution … of some of the property of the rich 
> among the poor."
> 
> “If we were to redesign Economics 101, what would it look like? One 
> possibility is to begin not with abstract models, but with the real world.” 
> That view was echoed in the 1948 first edition of the textbook that would 
> dominate the market for the next three decades. In Economics, Paul Samuelson 
> wrote, "John D. Rockefeller’s dog may receive the milk that a poor child 
> needs to avoid rickets. Why? Because supply and demand are working badly? No. 
> Because they are doing what they are designed to do, putting goods in the 
> hands of those who can pay the most." For Samuelson, the competitive market 
> model of Economics 101 was simply a useful analytical tool.
> 
> For his contemporaries Friedrich A. Hayek and Milton Friedman, however, it 
> was something more: the heavy artillery in an ideological battle against the 
> New Deal. In the 1940s and ’50s, Hayek and especially Friedman built a 
> comprehensive theory of society on the foundation of competitive markets. In 
> his 1962 book Capitalism and Freedom, Friedman explained how virtually any 
> social or political issue could be analyzed in terms of supply and demand — 
> and concluded in each case that government should get out of the way and let 
> free markets produce the best of all possible worlds.
> 
> Both Hayek and Friedman saw themselves as participants in a battle of ideas 
> against encroaching socialism. In their hands, an analytical framework became 
> a universal worldview: Economics 101 became economism. Economism is the 
> belief that basic economics lessons can explain all social phenomena — that 
> people, companies, and markets behave according to the abstract, 
> two-dimensional illustrations of an Economics 101 textbook. Ideally, students 
> should learn that the competitive market model is just that — a model, which 
> by definition abstracts from the real world. According to the rhetoric of 
> economics, however, the lessons of Economics 101 can be 

Re: [Marxism] Trump, Assad and the US Left

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Members of the US political class (in Max Weber’s sense) who are horrified at 
Trump (largely because he isn’t PLU) and aghast at his comments "that the US 
should greatly expand its nuclear arsenal” seem not to have noticed that Obama 
announced a trillion [sic] dollar program for that last spring:

https://theintercept.com/2016/02/23/obamas-new-rationale-for-1-trillion-nuclear-program-augurs-a-new-arms-race-with-russia/

Nuclear weapons (“defense” spending) are a leading example of Obama’s 
“fake-left-drive-right” politics. After stirring speeches about reducing the 
arms race with Russia, he expands it. Trump’s suggestion is far short of 
Obama’s in scope and specificity. And the practical effect of Obama’s policies 
is clear: in November 2012 he canceled a conference in Helsinki that had 
intended to establish “nuclear-free zones” in the Middle East; of course he has 
rejected calls for Israel’s nuclear facilities to be placed under international 
inspection. 

American liberals who reject Brexit voters as racists, Trump voters as 
deplorables, and Le Pen voters as neo-Nazis will probably continue to be 
surprised at the political establishment's inability to make the croppies lie 
down. The plague of American interventionism - US presidents have killed more 
than 20 million people in 37 nations since WWII - is being rejected around the 
world. But the US remains during the Obama administration what M. L. King 
called it long ago: “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today.” 
Under the direction of Obama's National Security Council, US ’special forces,’ 
with 70,000 members, are active in more than 130 countries around the world: 
their activities include kidnapping ("rendition"), murder, and torture.  

If Trump brings ‘moderation’ to Obama’s appalling record - ignored by US media 
but not elsewhere - it will be a consummation devoutly to be wished.   

—CGE


> On Dec 23, 2016, at 2:21 PM, MM <marxmai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Dec 19, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism 
>> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu <mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:
>> 
>> I’d rather have Trump talking to Putin than HRC provoking him.
> 
> 
> How about the worst of both worlds:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/22/us/politics/trump-says-us-should-expand-its-nuclear-capability.html
>  
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nytimes.com_2016_12_22_us_politics_trump-2Dsays-2Dus-2Dshould-2Dexpand-2Dits-2Dnuclear-2Dcapability.html=DQMFaQ=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0=zY78Vd4FMRVux_r3ltfH4gaKUsAP2QanagMZW2uQjVE=eNioLng7HSJbMjUb8iKYYpCxYW_PmANU44c9xA0E45c=>
> 
> 

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Re: [Marxism] Trump, Assad and the US Left

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Far better than Clinton’s ‘no-fly zones’ in Syria.

I’d rather have Trump talking to Putin than HRC provoking him.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/19/the-bad-losers-and-what-they-fear-losing/
 



> On Dec 19, 2016, at 3:30 PM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Well and good. But how about Russian troops (and airplanes)? Let's not forget 
> that now Trump is moving into close alliance with Putin as far as Syria is 
> concerned.
> 
> John
> 
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Carl G. Estabrook  > wrote:
> The demand should be the removal of all US troops (and bases, weapons, 
> financial support) from MENA.
> 
> Given the extent of US responsibility for the general situation, we should 
> pay for steps taken by the UNSC to pacify the region.
> 
> —CGE
> 
> > On Dec 19, 2016, at 1:29 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Trump, Assad and the US Left
> >  > >
> > Posted on December 19, 2016
> >  > >
> >  by
> > oaklandsocialist  > >
> >
> > Much of the left in the US is basically taking the same position that
> > Donald Trump is taking regarding Syria. As the New York Times reports
> >  >  
> > >:
> > Trump’s position is “that the United States should focus on defeating the
> > Islamic State, and find common ground with the Syrians and their Russian
> > backers.” “My attitude was you’re fighting Syria, Syria is fighting ISIS,
> > and you have to get rid of ISIS,” Trump has said
> >  >  
> > >
> > .
> >
> > Is this so very different from those on the left who see the Islamic State
> > and al Qaeda (in the form of Nusra) as the only opponents of Assad? Is it
> > so different from those who justify any crime against humanity in the name
> > of combating the Islamic State fascists? What will they say if a Trump
> > presidency actually does join forces with Putin & Co. in Syria? Will they
> > support that?
> >
> > Basically, these lefts have abandoned any class position. They see one, and
> > only one enemy: US imperialism. The Russian capitalist state cannot be
> > imperialist, according to them. That includes when it imposes itself on the
> > people of Chechnya, using the same military tactics that the racist State
> > of Israel used against the people of Gaza.
> >
> >
> > *Same as the Stalinists of Old*These lefts are taking a position similar to
> > that taken by the Stalinists and their liberal supporters back in the 1930s
> > and ’40s. In the first place, any reports of the crimes of Stalin & Co. are
> > purely capitalist propaganda. Second, that those who traveled to the Soviet
> > Union as guests of the terrorist regime of Stalin and came back with
> > glowing 

Re: [Marxism] Trump, Assad and the US Left

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Not at all. But I’m appalled at the Obama administration’s efforts to support 
the jihadists in the face of Trump’s threat to abandon them.

I’m sure you’ve seen Andrew Cockburn, "A Special Relationship: The United 
States is teaming up with Al Qaeda, again,” Harper’s (January 2016).

Deus misereatur in ambobus.


> On Dec 19, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> 
> On 12/19/16 2:47 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism wrote:
>> The demand should be the removal of all US troops (and bases, weapons, 
>> financial support) from MENA.
> 
> Carl, are you still gung-ho for Assad? If so, god save your soul.
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Re: [Marxism] Trump, Assad and the US Left

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The demand should be the removal of all US troops (and bases, weapons, 
financial support) from MENA.

Given the extent of US responsibility for the general situation, we should pay 
for steps taken by the UNSC to pacify the region. 

—CGE

> On Dec 19, 2016, at 1:29 PM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> 
> Trump, Assad and the US Left
> 
> Posted on December 19, 2016
>  by
> oaklandsocialist 
> 
> Much of the left in the US is basically taking the same position that
> Donald Trump is taking regarding Syria. As the New York Times reports
> :
> Trump’s position is “that the United States should focus on defeating the
> Islamic State, and find common ground with the Syrians and their Russian
> backers.” “My attitude was you’re fighting Syria, Syria is fighting ISIS,
> and you have to get rid of ISIS,” Trump has said
> 
> .
> 
> Is this so very different from those on the left who see the Islamic State
> and al Qaeda (in the form of Nusra) as the only opponents of Assad? Is it
> so different from those who justify any crime against humanity in the name
> of combating the Islamic State fascists? What will they say if a Trump
> presidency actually does join forces with Putin & Co. in Syria? Will they
> support that?
> 
> Basically, these lefts have abandoned any class position. They see one, and
> only one enemy: US imperialism. The Russian capitalist state cannot be
> imperialist, according to them. That includes when it imposes itself on the
> people of Chechnya, using the same military tactics that the racist State
> of Israel used against the people of Gaza.
> 
> 
> *Same as the Stalinists of Old*These lefts are taking a position similar to
> that taken by the Stalinists and their liberal supporters back in the 1930s
> and ’40s. In the first place, any reports of the crimes of Stalin & Co. are
> purely capitalist propaganda. Second, that those who traveled to the Soviet
> Union as guests of the terrorist regime of Stalin and came back with
> glowing reports were “independent” reporters – as if the people of the
> Soviet Union then or Syria today would speak openly to these “reporters”
> for their torturer! But, most important, back in the era of Stalin his
> supporters argued, in effect, that the world working class must sacrifice
> its interests for the interests of the “socialist homeland”, which in
> reality meant the Stalinist bureaucracy.
> 
> 
> *“US Imperialism the One and Only Enemy”*Today, the defenders of
> Putin/Assad (and Rouhani and Hezbollah) make a similar argument: That the
> one and only battle that matters today is that against US imperialism (and
> its allies, including Israel). Therefore, anything is justified in opposing
> US imperialism, which is the only imperialist force in the world. They
> forget that every capitalist state is imperialist, or would be if it could.
> What is the Guatemalan state when it casts covetous eyes on Belize, with
> the desire to invade that country? What are both the Indian and Pakistani
> states with regard to Kashmir? How about the Brazilian state when it sent
> troops into Haiti to murder Haitian workers protesting in the streets? How
> about the Chinese state, when it expands into Pakistan, Africa and South
> America?
> 
> https://oaklandsocialist.com/2016/12/19/trump-assad-and-the-us-left/
> 
> -- 
> "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
> Asata Shakur
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com and //
> www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream
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Re: [Marxism] Brown student responds to NYT op-ed about anti-Semitism

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Having taught at Brown as a post-doc long ago, I find the response quite 
reasonable.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 2, 2016, at 12:15 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> Those bathroom stalls all seem to be filled with swastikas.
> 
>> On 10/2/16 1:11 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>> @Benjamin Gladstone, I take the same Brown University courses as you. I
>> currently sit across from you in a Middle East Studies seminar. So I'm
>> confused by today's New York Times op-ed, where you write of
>> experiencing anti-Semitism after listening to our professor "glorify"
>> Egyptian leader Nasser and Hezbollah. (When/where did that happen?!)
>> 
>> Brown is also 1/4th Jewish and anecdotally, in my 4 years, I've never
>> seen a 'swastika carved into the bathroom stalls" or heard another
>> student "accuse me of killing Jesus." (But in your op-ed, you've had a
>> different experience.)
>> 
>> Ben, your exaggerations and allegations of anti-Semitism at Brown harm
>> our professors' ability to teach. Your rhetoric invites outside
>> political groups to pressure, fire and censor non-tenured academics
>> critical of your Israel politics (a la the Canary Mission). Your op-ed
>> portends a threat to academic freedom at Brown.
>> 
> 
> Open Letter to Bard College President on "Anti-Semitism" on campus
> 
> (Posted to www.marxmail.org on Oct. 8, 2002)
> 
> Dear Leon Botstein,
> 
> I hope everything is going okay with you and your master plan for turning 
> Bard College into a first-rate American institution. No doubt the new 
> Performing Institute designed by megastar Frank Gehry will catapult Bard into 
> the stratosphere even though to me it looks like a melting gingerbread house 
> designed by somebody who ate one too many peyote buttons. But--hey--what do I 
> know. For me, some of the most emblematic buildings at Bard during my stint 
> (1961-1965) were the barracks that had been constructed after WWII for 
> returning veterans. They might have looked like dormitories for migrant farm 
> laborers, but they did contain some extraordinary students. Other 
> times--other places.
> 
> But the reason I write you now is to express my disappointment that you would 
> jump on the "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" bandwagon. Surely, you must 
> understand that this was the purpose of the full-page ad in the NY Times, 
> even though it was framed in terms of protecting Jewish students from another 
> Kristallnacht. Here at Columbia University, where I have worked for the past 
> 10 years, you can find a vibrant anti-Zionist movement that is spearheaded by 
> Jews in fact. Now maybe they are in some sort of dark conspiracy to punish 
> their co-religionists but mostly they seem intent on raising fellow students' 
> awareness of what Gush Shalom leader Uri Avnery calls "a cruel, brutal and 
> colonizing state."
> 
> When you turn to the Chronicles of Higher Education (Oct. 4) article on 
> "anti-Semitism" on campus, the evidence is pretty thin. Your fellow signatory 
> Arthur Levine, president of Teachers College of Columbia University, said 
> that he noticed a graffiti on a men's-room wall that said, "Let's kill the 
> Jews." He said he looked in several stalls and found other graffiti, both 
> anti-Jewish and anti-Islamic.
> 
> Now my offices are in Teachers College and I have had occasion to visit many 
> of their facilities on account of my chronic irritable bowel syndrome. But I 
> have never seen such graffiti myself. Is it possible that President Levine is 
> manufacturing evidence like the Gulf of Tonkin incident? I wouldn't rule this 
> out myself.
> 
> (I would hasten to add that the only threatening graffiti I spotted was 
> "Death to Short People", which is on the first floor of Thorndike, in the 
> rightmost stall in the bathroom near the photocopying room. I often go there 
> to do my business and read a little CLR James while I'm at it. Now I have 
> never felt threatened by this graffiti, even though I barely reach 5'6".)
> 
> On the other hand, there are lots of real attacks taking place against 
> professors and students who are protesting Israeli brutality. I am acquainted 
> with Mohammad Alam, an economics professor at Northeastern, whose "dossier" 
> has turned up in a website run by Daniel Pipes. Along with institutions 

Re: [Marxism] [UCE] Re: Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Probably more surprising that neoliberal economists are Leninists.

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 7:47 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> 
> On 9/2/16 8:38 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism wrote:
>> First of all, neoliberal economists are completely for open borders, in so 
>> far as that’s possible.
> 
> I didn't realize that Lenin was a neoliberal economist. Imagine that.



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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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[Trump’s attack on illegal immigration is an attack on neoliberalism - and the 
misery neoliberal policies have produced for much of the US population over the 
last 40 years - while enriching the 1%. The following is from 
>.]

...who’s for illegal immigration? As far as I know ... the only people who are 
openly for illegal immigration are neoliberal economists.

First of all, neoliberal economists are completely for open borders, in so far 
as that’s possible. Friedman said years ago that, “You can’t have a welfare 
state and open borders,” but of course the point of that was “open the borders, 
because that’ll kill the welfare state.” There’s a good paper you can get off 
the web by Gordon Hanson, commissioned by whoever runs Foreign Affairs, and the 
argument is that illegal immigration is better than legal immigration, because 
illegal immigration is extremely responsive to market conditions.

So it’s quite striking that you have all this protesting against illegal 
immigration, and especially at a time when it’s down. So why are people so 
upset about it? They are upset about it not because it has gotten worse, it 
hasn’t, but because they somehow recognize that one of the primary sort of 
marks of the triumph of neoliberalism in the US is a very high tolerance of 
illegal immigration, and that illegal immigration is the kind of ne plus ultra 
of the labor mobility that neoliberalism requires. I mean that’s why for years 
— even though it’s a kind of contradiction in terms — as a policy it’s worked 
well. The Bush administration did everything it could to talk against illegal 
immigration but leave it alone and I’m sure the Obama administration would do 
the same thing except its hand’s being forced by the Tea Party. 

...The Tea Party thinks that immigrants are taking away their money. It’s not 
immigrants who are taking away their money; it’s neoliberalism that’s taking 
away their money. And this is true even though the Tea Party is a 
disproportionately upper middle class movement. There is some debate about 
that, but what theTimes survey shows, at least in part, is that Tea Partiers in 
general are richer than most Americans, closer to the top 20 percent than they 
are to the middle. But if you look at the distribution of income in the last 10 
years what you’re struck by is that the top 20 percent looks like it’s done 
very well in relation to everyone else and the top 10 percent looks like it’s 
done very very well in relation to everyone else but it’s the top 1 percent who 
have really made out like bandits. And if you separate out the top 1 percent 
from the rest of the 19 that makes up the top 20, the 19 have more or less 
stayed still, they have not increased their proportion of the share of the US 
income very much over the past 10–15 years. Almost all the increase has gone to 
the top 1 percent. So you now have a threat even to the upper middle class, 
which for the first 15–20 years of neoliberalism benefited from it 
tremendously, but which is now not exactly losing ground in relation to the 
country as a whole, but is losing ground in relation to this new phenomenon, 
this extraordinary success of the top 1, or to some extent, the top 5 percent. 
And you begin to see those people actually feeling a certain sense of anxiety...

People always bridle when I say this, but I really doubt that the main issue 
here is white male status anxiety. Obviously I’m not in a position to say there 
aren’t people who are experiencing it. What I’m saying is that people in the 
Tea Party movement have a problem that is realer than “white male status 
anxiety,” that the economic shifts that are taking place, the more and more 
extreme inequality, the more and more going to the top, no doubt some people 
may be unhappy because of loss of status, but many millions more are going to 
be unhappy because of the loss of actual money. So my point isn’t really to 
deny the phenomenon of status anxiety, it’s just to point out the 
extraordinaire eagerness of American liberals to identify racism as the 
problem, so that anti-racism (rather than anti-capitalism) can be the 
solution...

—CGE

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> I am so amazed that people on this list aren't more troubled by Trump's
> racism. Did you hear his speech on immigration?
> 
> Nobody here comments.Nobody here cares. Where are the exposures of Trump's
> white nationalist connections.
> 
> I feel like the treachery of the 

Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Eminent sense.

> On Sep 1, 2016, at 7:38 PM, Dennis Brasky via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
>   ...let's 
> say [Trump] makes
> it close by November. If the Left follows the path of capitulation to
> hysteria and supports Clinton and she wins and gives us four more years of
> Bill and Barack's neoliberal economic policies and neoconservative foreign
> policies, then what? Another Trump runs against her in 2020 and what does
> the Left have to offer - four more years of arsenic instead of cyanide?
> Millions of people, angry with the way things are will have no Left to turn
> to since we were so busy stifling our views in favor of protection from the
> lesser evil that we neglected to set up our own independent presence with
> our own voice. Those millions - not just diehard racists and xenophobes -
> will have nowhere else to turn to but the far right. What will we have
> accomplished except to further put off the task of building a Left that has
> some resonance with our natural constituency?


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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Well said.

> On Sep 1, 2016, at 6:54 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> ...let me repeat what I have already said. My political orientation was based 
> on what I learned from Peter Camejo in the early 80s. I took an interest in 
> the Greens after attending a standing room only for Ralph Nader in 2000 and 
> it deepened after Peter became his running mate in 2004. Nader was not 
> running as a Green that year because "Demogreens" were afraid that he would 
> steal votes from John Kerry.
> 
> In other words, I am a strong supporter of the Green Party (even though I am 
> not a member). I always vote Green, including for Howie Hawkins who is on 
> Marxmail. Half the editorial board of the North Star website are involved 
> with the Greens either as candidates (Brandy Baker and Jim Brash) or as 
> frustrated members (Mark Lause).
> 
> I have political principles that I am strongly committed to. One of them is 
> total opposition to both the Democrats and Republicans. In the best of all 
> possible worlds, the Labor Party that some leftish AFL-CIO bureaucrats formed 
> back in the 1980s would have taken off but they lacked the nerve, just like 
> the Demogreens.
> 
> I don't think that the Greens will lead a revolution in the USA that is so 
> desperately needed but it is a way-station on that path. If something better 
> came along, I'd hook up with that in a heartbeat. But surely you must 
> understand by now that I would rather be waterboarded than vote for Hillary 
> Clinton.


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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Why Trump will probably be elected:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2016/09/01/retirement/sIRT23m4MHGkEwXaP8YB9H/story.html
 


—CGE


> On Sep 1, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> Louis,
> 
> Remember a couple of weeks ago when you said:
> 
> Finally, isn't it time to recognize that the Trump campaign is toast? The
>> numbers are devastating:
> 
> 
> Well, now most polls  show Clinton's lead cut in half. Reuters has them
> neck-in-neck. Any honest stock broker would be issuing a revised estimate
> by now. Will you?
> 
> As I said, I think talk like that is treacherous and I don't say that light
> because I have a great deal of respect for you, but I have to call them
> like I see them.
> 
> It is only being put forward that Trump will surely lose to calm the fears
> of voters who are convinced he is a much greater evil, so that they won't
> worry so much and won't feel the need to vote for Clinton who they rightly
> detest.
> 
> The question of whether he may win or not is something quite separate an
> evaluation of his politics, which I want to get into with your Goldwater
> quote but I see my lunch hr is drawing to a close so that will have tu wait.
> 
> So just on this question: I thought your estimate that the Trump campaign
> was toast when you said it. I've laid out all the things that could happen
> before 8 Nov. other places, there are many.
> 
> Are you now ready to revise your estimate of Trump's chances?
> 
> More, later
> 
> Clay

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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Is the presidential election about personalities or policies?

For more than a generation neoliberal policies - in both Republican and 
Democrat administrations - have produced increasing inequality (and at an 
accelerating rate). At the same time neoconservative policies - again in 
administrations of both parties - produced the crime of the century (so far), 
the invasion of Iraq, and also the first US president to be at war throughout 
two presidential terms. (Obama has attacked eight countries; Bush only attacked 
six.)

Trump is the first candidate of either major party in more than a generation to 
pay homage neither to neoliberalism nor to neoconservatism. He has rejected 
neoliberal policies (trade pacts, from NAFTA to TTIP) and neoconservative ones 
(Nato; provocation of Russia) as well. For that reason he is hated and feared 
by the political establishment (in both parties).

“The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he 
is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its 
relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is 
up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the 
multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its 
dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China's 
Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world's great power talking 
peace - however unlikely - would be the blackest farce were the issues not so 
dire.” [John Pilger]

Clinton champions neoconservatism and neoliberalism but can say so only 
indirectly because those policies - more war and more inequality - are not 
popular. Therefore she must try to distract the public from the policies that 
she would follow in office by directing attention to Trump's less than 
attractive personality. But there are indications that it's not working, as her 
lead in the polls shrinks, in spite of her overwhelming support from the media.

As William Blum (author of “Killing Hope: U.S. Military and C.I.A. 
Interventions Since World War II") says, “Yes, Trump’s personally obnoxious. 
I’d have a very hard time being his friend. Who cares?” 

—CGE

> On Sep 1, 2016, at 12:36 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> You don't have to buy Clinton's reasons for voting for her to vote for her.
> That's very simplistic thinking, not strategic. You can and should vote for
> her as the only practical way to deny Trump the WH.
> 
> I guarantee you non-white Americans will get that because that is exactly
> what they will be doing, and not because they believe the horsecrap. They
> do believe the hatred coming from only one campaign for the WH even if it
> doesn't get much mention here.
> 
> I have say that Jill Stein's LA rally was objectively pro-Trump - see
> another reply for details.
> 
> If the Green Party targets its campaign more to win votes away from Clinton
> than from Trump, as an engineer I have to recognize that represents a bias
> towards Trump.
> 
> I've covered how her tweet are objectively pro-Trump,
> http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/how-jillstein-tweets-for-trump.html
> 
> but i think the same can be said about her whole campaign - BTW Putin
> doesn't have any problem with that - why else 105 articles in RT -
> certainly not because he wants RT to do good work.
> 


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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Your argument is unassailable…

I’m "pro-Stein,” not "pro-Trump"; but I am "anti-war" and "anti-Clinton."

And I’m Marxist the way Chomsky is (although I think he’s wrong about Clinton): 

"I think that the libertarian socialist concepts - and by that I mean a range 
of thinking that extends from left-wing Marxism through anarchism - are 
fundamentally correct and that they are the proper and natural extension of 
classical liberalism into the era of advanced industrial society.” ['Government 
in the Future,' 1970]

—CGE


> On Aug 31, 2016, at 10:37 PM, Mark Lause <markala...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You don't buy the standard repackaged Democratic horsecrap and you are 
> "pro-Trump."
> 
> What utter stupidity passes for Marxism
> 
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 10:33 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism 
> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu <mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:

> I assume you mean Glen Ford’s piece on Black Agenda Report, which I suggest 
> people read for themselves:
> 
> <http://www.blackagendareport.com/trump_anti-empire 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.blackagendareport.com_trump-5Fanti-2Dempire=CwMFaQ=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0=xxOBNNgZYr_FZzj8fVpGqSgEe0zshO0se5zQXt2eEqk=dwvyqjDVT6bYTeX0YQo_7uOaGqP0mxLeQNJLIgh9zDU=>
>  <http://www.blackagendareport.com/trump_anti-empire 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.blackagendareport.com_trump-5Fanti-2Dempire=CwMFaQ=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0=xxOBNNgZYr_FZzj8fVpGqSgEe0zshO0se5zQXt2eEqk=dwvyqjDVT6bYTeX0YQo_7uOaGqP0mxLeQNJLIgh9zDU=>>>.
> 
> An appropriate companion piece is 
> <https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/20/trump-as-the-relative-peace-candidate/ 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__consortiumnews.com_2016_06_20_trump-2Das-2Dthe-2Drelative-2Dpeace-2Dcandidate_=CwMFaQ=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0=xxOBNNgZYr_FZzj8fVpGqSgEe0zshO0se5zQXt2eEqk=VQomarC4o_Hv4Tzo-A4kUiJlfaH5Zlu12C6M1X4o890=>
>  
> <https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/20/trump-as-the-relative-peace-candidate/ 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__consortiumnews.com_2016_06_20_trump-2Das-2Dthe-2Drelative-2Dpeace-2Dcandidate_=CwMFaQ=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0=xxOBNNgZYr_FZzj8fVpGqSgEe0zshO0se5zQXt2eEqk=VQomarC4o_Hv4Tzo-A4kUiJlfaH5Zlu12C6M1X4o890=>>>.
> 
> —CGE
> 
> 
> > On Aug 31, 2016, at 9:11 PM, A.R. G <amithrgu...@gmail.com 
> > <mailto:amithrgu...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> >
> > The piece you cited does not make a whole lot of sense. The first argument 
> > is his position on military bases. Outside of this being an incomparably 
> > small token of "isolationism" alongside threats to nuke people, send in 
> > ground troops, drones, and his use of torture, all he said was that he 
> > would reverse the arrangement such that those countries would be expected 
> > to pay the United States, rather than vice versa. He has taken a similar 
> > line with NATO. The second argument is that he does not accept the 
> > "rhetoric" of nation-building and so on; but even president-elect George W. 
> > Bush rejected such rationales during the 2000 election. This only means he 
> > is not as interested in sugar-coating such policies with the rhetoric of 
> > democracy and universalism. The last line was his "neutrality" rhetoric 
> > about Palestine. Even assuming we give that any credibility (one might note 
> > that even at the time, Trump combined his statements about "neutrality" 
> > with his affirmation that he was pro-Israel, meaning that he simply 
> > re-defined "neutral" to mean support for Israel), it has long since been 
> > surpassed by his adamant and aggressive support for Israel.
> >
> > It is an incredibly weak piece. The only part of it that even remotely 
> > speaks to what is "anti-empire" about Trump's policies is the isolationist 
> > rhetoric about US bases in Asia. Given the totality of the policies Trump 
> > has elaborated on, from nukes to torture to drones to ground troops, I'm 
> > not sure how anyone can see this as proof of any sort of "anti-imperialist" 
> > leanings.
> >
> > The Davis piece that I sent out goes into much greater depth about the 
> > policies that Trump has actually advocated for. He is as violent as they 
> > come.
> >
> > - Amith
> >
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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I assume you mean Glen Ford’s piece on Black Agenda Report, which I suggest 
people read for themselves: 

>.

An appropriate companion piece is 
>.

—CGE


> On Aug 31, 2016, at 9:11 PM, A.R. G  wrote:
> 
> Carl,
> 
> The piece you cited does not make a whole lot of sense. The first argument is 
> his position on military bases. Outside of this being an incomparably small 
> token of "isolationism" alongside threats to nuke people, send in ground 
> troops, drones, and his use of torture, all he said was that he would reverse 
> the arrangement such that those countries would be expected to pay the United 
> States, rather than vice versa. He has taken a similar line with NATO. The 
> second argument is that he does not accept the "rhetoric" of nation-building 
> and so on; but even president-elect George W. Bush rejected such rationales 
> during the 2000 election. This only means he is not as interested in 
> sugar-coating such policies with the rhetoric of democracy and universalism. 
> The last line was his "neutrality" rhetoric about Palestine. Even assuming we 
> give that any credibility (one might note that even at the time, Trump 
> combined his statements about "neutrality" with his affirmation that he was 
> pro-Israel, meaning that he simply re-defined "neutral" to mean support for 
> Israel), it has long since been surpassed by his adamant and aggressive 
> support for Israel. 
> 
> It is an incredibly weak piece. The only part of it that even remotely speaks 
> to what is "anti-empire" about Trump's policies is the isolationist rhetoric 
> about US bases in Asia. Given the totality of the policies Trump has 
> elaborated on, from nukes to torture to drones to ground troops, I'm not sure 
> how anyone can see this as proof of any sort of "anti-imperialist" leanings. 
> 
> The Davis piece that I sent out goes into much greater depth about the 
> policies that Trump has actually advocated for. He is as violent as they 
> come. 
> 
> - Amith
> 

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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Here’s someone who recognizes that Clinton is wrapping herself in duplicitous 
identity politics, in order to avoid the issues of class politics raised by the 
Trump campaign (and he isn’t white):

<http://www.blackagendareport.com/hillary_crusade_against_bigotry_trump 
<http://www.blackagendareport.com/hillary_crusade_against_bigotry_trump>>.


> On Aug 31, 2016, at 8:37 PM, Clay Claiborne <clayc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Like I said, we can expect to hear more pro-Trump voices on the white Left. 
> Even on Marxist lists. How sad.
> 
> I'm listening to another one of his racist titrates now as I write this now. 
> But , hey, if I was white maybe it wouldn't bother me either.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism 
> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu <mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:
> 
> Clinton is both a neoliberal (more inequality) and a neocon (more war); Trump 
> isn’t:
> 
> <https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/20/trump-as-the-relative-peace-candidate/ 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__consortiumnews.com_2016_06_20_trump-2Das-2Dthe-2Drelative-2Dpeace-2Dcandidate_=CwMFaQ=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0=HvGf98UKWQ6JHsRLvIm64kT7PdqlFb2kbmJgx1FkceQ=--kU581_Tm6_fzYjuhbSXX6OUhZnEvteZ58BgLCwiC4=>
>  
> <https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/20/trump-as-the-relative-peace-candidate/ 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__consortiumnews.com_2016_06_20_trump-2Das-2Dthe-2Drelative-2Dpeace-2Dcandidate_=CwMFaQ=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0=HvGf98UKWQ6JHsRLvIm64kT7PdqlFb2kbmJgx1FkceQ=--kU581_Tm6_fzYjuhbSXX6OUhZnEvteZ58BgLCwiC4=>>>.
> 
> 

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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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On Debs' advice, I’ll vote for the Green party candidate, Jill Stein, whose 
positions on foreign and domestic policy - to say nothing of climate 
catastrophe - are better than those of the major party candidates, but I won't 
be dissuaded by the argument that voting for a third party helps Trump: his 
positions on war and the economy are substantially better than Clinton’s.

http://www.blackagendareport.com/hillary_crusade_against_bigotry_trump 


—CGE

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 8:49 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> Please listen to what Trump is demagoguing about as I speak. I hope you
> will understand why minorities will be voting against him, and not castings
> a "feel good" vote for Jill.
> 

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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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http://www.blackagendareport.com/trump_anti-empire 



> On Aug 31, 2016, at 8:43 PM, A.R. G via Marxism  
> wrote:
> 
> You're right, Donald Trump isn't a neoliberal or a neocon like Hillary --
> he holds beliefs that are *even worse* than those two ideologies, and in
> any case, that hardly means he's not a warmonger (let alone a white
> nationalist).
> 
> https://newrepublic.com/article/135775/liberals-keep-calling-donald-trump-dove
> 

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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Clinton is both a neoliberal (more inequality) and a neocon (more war); Trump 
isn’t:

<https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/20/trump-as-the-relative-peace-candidate/ 
<https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/20/trump-as-the-relative-peace-candidate/>>.
 


> On Aug 31, 2016, at 7:58 PM, A.R. G <amithrgu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> How are we less likely to get war from Trump? Trump has discussed actually 
> using nuclear weapons. He wants to bring back torture -- and he doesn't even 
> have any qualms about calling it torture, unlike his Republican colleagues 
> who purposely used euphemisms like "enhanced interrogation techniques" to 
> avoid incriminating themselves. He floated sending tens of thousands of 
> troops to fight in Syria, albeit on the side of the regime. He has threatened 
> to tear up the diplomatic agreement between the US and Iran, and he wants to 
> all abut reward the entirety of the West Bank to the Israeli occupiers. He's 
> also pledged more drones. 
> 
> The CIA and the Pentagon oppose him for obvious reasons: he is a lunatic. 
> There is a difference between not being pro-war and being so pro-war that the 
> other pro-war institutions are afraid you will do it without any strategy. 
> 
> - Amith
> 
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism 
> <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu <mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:
>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
> 
> With Clinton as president, we're certain to get more war, in the tradition of 
> the last 25 years. With Trump as president, we might not. How can that be a 
> difficult choice?
> 
> “The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded 
> he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its 
> relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something 
> is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the 
> multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its 
> dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with 
> China's Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world's great power 
> talking peace - however unlikely - would be the blackest farce were the 
> issues not so dire.” [John Pilger]
> 
> —CGE
> 
> 
> > On Aug 31, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism 
> > <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu <mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote:
> >
> > Trump is farther right than the usual Republican.  Clinton is way further
> > right than the usual Democrat.  But why waste time dickering over the
> > calipers.
> >
> > If Jill Stein wasn't there, I would still vote against both of them.  Maybe
> > I'd even vote for for the Skippy McTrotly on the Vegetarian Bolshevik
> > Alliance.
> >
> > But not voting at all is better than using your ballot to sanction the next
> > temporary monarch of the U.S.
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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With Clinton as president, we're certain to get more war, in the tradition of 
the last 25 years. With Trump as president, we might not. How can that be a 
difficult choice?

“The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have demanded he 
is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather from its 
relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected. Something is 
up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the 
multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains its 
dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with China's 
Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world's great power talking 
peace - however unlikely - would be the blackest farce were the issues not so 
dire.” [John Pilger]

—CGE


> On Aug 31, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> Trump is farther right than the usual Republican.  Clinton is way further
> right than the usual Democrat.  But why waste time dickering over the
> calipers.
> 
> If Jill Stein wasn't there, I would still vote against both of them.  Maybe
> I'd even vote for for the Skippy McTrotly on the Vegetarian Bolshevik
> Alliance.
> 
> But not voting at all is better than using your ballot to sanction the next
> temporary monarch of the U.S.
> 


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Re: [Marxism] Immigration

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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"...the vote to leave [was a] defeat of an attempt to rule 500 million people 
with what amounted to a capitalist dictatorship, that was anti union and anti 
working class, as a victory for democracy and equality in Europe, and a rare 
blow, struck by ordinary people, without any very strong leadership, against 
the very powerful global forces of international supranational capitalism, 
against all the odds..." [Gregory Motton]


> On Jun 30, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> This is not about workers stealing jobs. It is about people trying to escape 
> violence and starvation in war-torn countries. The EU makes it possible for 
> refugees to live in safety. Just look at the charts here:
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34131911
> 
> Most came from Syria with 475,000 people applying for political asylum, with 
> Afghanistan the runner-up.
> 
> Nigel Farage did not campaign around jobs being taken away by immigrants. He 
> campaigned about dark-skinned people swarming across Britain. Just look at 
> the poster here:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-breaking-point-poster-queue-of-migrants
> 
> As Doug Henwood pointed out on PEN-L, "It is not a fact that immigration 
> drives down wages. The most depressed areas in England are the ones with the 
> fewest immigrants, not the most (and those are the ones that were the most 
> pro-Brexit)."

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Re: [Marxism] On Bernie Sanders’s “political revolution” | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Witty and helpful. Thanks.

> On Mar 10, 2016, at 12:44 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> 
> Being a senior citizen is a mixed blessing. On the debit side, I have to put 
> up with ailments that tend to develop once you are past 50 (as I am well 
> past) such as cataracts, hypertension, and the male-only benign prostatic 
> hyperplasia. On the credit side, having been on the front lines of most of 
> the political battles of the past 50 years, I have gained a lot of experience 
> that allows me to be a bit more skeptical of the Sanders campaign that many 
> younger people on the left embrace like a shiny new toy.
> 
> Of course, there are some grizzled veterans who are also fixated on the new 
> toy, an explanation for which has a lot to do with their particular 
> background that views voting for Democrats as a tactical question. To give 
> credit where credit is due, I would say that Ethan Young’s article on the 
> Rosa Luxemburg Stiftung website titled “A Political Revolution” is the most 
> skillful I have seen to justify voting Democrat—much more informed than, for 
> example, the Socialist Alternative people whose article explaining their 
> participation in the Sanders campaign appears juvenile by comparison.
> 
> I should mention that the Rosa Luxemburg Stiftung is basically the NY branch 
> office of Die Linke, the German left party that generally fights the good 
> fight even though it has erred badly on Syria. In my view, the USA is badly 
> in need of such a party as the Socialist Alternative comrades argue in their 
> article but mistakenly believe—as does Young—that the Sanders campaign can 
> mutate into such a party. It is more likely that I will mutate into Rosa 
> Luxemburg.
> 
> full: 
> https://louisproyect.org/2016/03/10/on-bernie-sanderss-political-revolution/
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Re: [Marxism] William H. Schaap, Radical Lawyer, Author and Publisher, Dies at 75

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Requiescat in pace.

> On Mar 2, 2016, at 6:42 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
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> 
> (Phil Schaap, the gabby but informed jazz show host on WKCR, is Bill Schaap's 
> cousin. My guess is that their fathers were CP'ers.)
> 
> NY Times, Mar. 2 2016
> William H. Schaap, Radical Lawyer, Author and Publisher, Dies at 75
> By SAM ROBERT
> 
> William H. Schaap, a radical lawyer, author and publisher who fought against 
> investigative abuses by government agencies at home and abroad, died on Feb. 
> 25 in Manhattan. He was 75.
> 
> The cause was pulmonary disease, his niece Rosie Schaap said.
> 
> Mr. Schaap began his activism in law school, counseling students arrested in 
> Chicago for protesting segregated housing.
> 
> As a lawyer, he defended Columbia University students arrested in 1968 for 
> occupying campus buildings to protest the war in Vietnam. In the late 1960s, 
> he left a Wall Street law firm where he was an associate and moved to Japan 
> and Germany with his wife, Ellen Ray, to counsel resisters to the war in 
> Vietnam.
> 
> In 1976, they formed what became CovertAction, a publication that reported on 
> illegal Central Intelligence Agency activities. It also identified C.I.A. 
> agents by name, from unclassified sources, a practice outlawed by Congress in 
> 1982. Mr. Schaap also represented C.I.A. whistle-blowers, like Philip Agee.
> 
> In 1980, in a letter to The New York Times, Mr. Schaap, Ms. Ray and Louis 
> Wolf, the editors of what was then called The Covert Action Information 
> Bulletin, wrote, “We do not object to intelligence gathering; we object to 
> the covert interference in the affairs of other nations, the refusal to let 
> the people of those nations decide for themselves upon their leaders, their 
> systems of government and the forms of institutions they desire.”
> 
> Mr. Schaap and Ms. Ray often singled out The Times for criticism through 
> their Institute for Media Analysis and later a monthly news-media watchdog 
> magazine, Lies of Our Times. They criticized, among other articles, what they 
> called favorable coverage of the Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet and of F. 
> W. de Klerk, the president of South Africa during apartheid, in The Times and 
> other mainstream publications.
> 
> They also founded Sheridan Square Press, which published the New Orleans 
> prosecutor Jim Garrison’s “On the Trail of the Assassins: My Investigation 
> and Prosecution of the Murder of President Kennedy,” which was a source for 
> Oliver Stone in making the 1991 film “JFK.”
> 
> After Hurricane Katrina in 2005, Mr. Schaap lived part time in New Orleans, 
> representing displaced homeowners.
> 
> William Herman Schaap was born in Brooklyn on March 1, 1940, to Maurice 
> Schaap, a salesman, and the former Leah Lerner, a French teacher. He received 
> a bachelor’s degree from Cornell University in 1961 and graduated from the 
> University of Chicago Law School.
> 
> Mr. Schaap’s older brother was the sports broadcaster Dick Schaap, who died 
> in 2001, and who once wrote: “I write, mostly to entertain, to make people 
> smile, perhaps even laugh. My brother writes, mostly, to incite, to make 
> people angry, perhaps even to act.”
> 
> Ms. Ray died in 2015. Mr. Schaap is survived by a sister, Nancy Silvio.
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Re: [Marxism] Greens get relating to Sanders right (when so many Marxists look away)

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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That seems right to me. I’ll vote for Bernie in the primary & Stein in the 
general election  (assuming Trump-Clinton).


> On Mar 2, 2016, at 4:24 PM, A.R. G via Marxism  
> wrote:
> 
> So I'm curious, what's wrong with voting for Bernie in the primaries, and
> then, if he loses as half of the Marxist critics are suggesting, voting for
> a Green during the general election? It seems like the only way the issue
> will come up is if Bernie wins the primary. If that happens I still think
> it makes sense to vote for Bernie while separately organizing real
> opposition outside of the electoral system altogether in order to downplay
> the effects of the grassroots opposition deflating in the rare event that
> he takes the White House.
> 
> - Amith
> 
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Ratbag Media via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Physician Jill Stein, who is seeking the Green Party’s nomination for
>> president in 2016, has called Bernie Sanders’ 2016 Democratic presidential
>> campaign “*wonderful*” and stated that the Green Party “*will not attack
>> that campaign.*”
>> 
>> Jill Sten: “*But unfortunately he is in a party that has a track record for
>> basically sabotaging its rebels. It has done a good job of doing that in
>> the past from Dennis Kucinich to Jesse Jackson to Howard Dean, whether they
>> use a PR campaign like the ‘Dean’s scream’ to bring down the Dean
>> candidacy. Also Jesse Jackson was sabotaged by a PR by the DNC. The
>> Democratic Party has its ways of reigning people in if they try to rebel.
>> The bottom line is that we are in political system in the U.S., which is
>> funded by predatory banks and fossil fueled giants and war profiteers. So,
>> we really need to reject that system, we say to reject the lesser evil so
>> we can stand up and really fight for the greater good.*”
>> 
>> In a Monday interview on New England Public Radio, Stein said
>> <
>> http://nepr.net/news/2016/02/29/america-is-in-revolt-according-to-green-party-candidate-jill-stein/
>>> ,
>> “*What’s been happening in the Democratic Party is you’ll have a good
>> candidate who will run, but then the candidate gets reabsorbed and the
>> campaign becomes reabsorbed back into the Democratic Party. So it’s kind of
>> a fake left while the party becomes more corporatist, more militarist, and
>> continues to march to the right.*”
>> 
>> She called the grassroots movement that Sanders has tapped into a “
>> *rebellion*” that “*can’t simply be passed on to Hillary Clinton.*”


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[Marxism] Trump-Sanders as rejection of Bush-Obama austerity

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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"...Many Americans seem to have concluded that the political system is so 
corrupt and dysfunctional that only a total outsider can be trusted to take 
charge. The point was driven home to me while talking to a potential Trump 
voter on the fringes of the Plymouth rally. This man, a prosperous-looking 
lawyer, told me that if he did not vote for Mr Trump he would opt for Mr 
Sanders.

"The Trump and Sanders pitches to the voters have certain strong similarities. 
Both lambast all mainstream politicians as in hock to corrupt special interests 
and lobbyists. Mr Trump, a billionaire, makes a virtue of the fact that his 
campaign is self-financed — making him immune, he says, to the pressures 
brought to bear on all the other Republicans by their donors. Mr Sanders has 
raised most of his campaign money from small donations and has put Hillary 
Clinton on the back foot by pointing to the hundreds of thousands of dollars 
she has accepted in speaking fees from the likes of Goldman Sachs.

"Mr Sanders’ argument that “the business model of Wall Street is fraud” is 
finding an audience. Indeed, if anybody has said a good word about Wall Street 
in this election, I must have missed it. The most that Mrs Clinton will do is 
to suggest tentatively that “greed” in high finance, while bad, is not the only 
pressing problem facing the US...

"...America’s political class is only beginning to grasp the depth of the 
anti-establishment mood that is gripping the US. Almost eight years after the 
financial crisis, this mood seems to be growing in strength, not weakening.

"...all the talk is of students reeling under unpayable debts; and of parents 
having to work at two or three low-paid jobs to make ends meet. The idea that 
the economy is “rigged” in favour of insiders is now embraced, in some form, by 
most of the candidates in both the Republican and Democratic parties…"


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9a42636c-cc22-11e5-a8ef-ea66e967dd44.html#axzz3zgFeKC56
 


—CGE
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: A Pentagon-Kremlin conspiracy to back Assad? Who is Seymour Hersh kidding? | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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I think what Hersh reports is a turf war between the the CIA and the Pentagon, 
with the former holding (as US Machiavellians have, back to the Carter 
administration in Afghanistan) that jihadists can be used for US policy goals 
of Mideast control, and the Pentagon skeptical about that.

The former position is illustrated in Andrew Cockburn's current article, "A 
Special Relationship: The United States is teaming up with Al Qaeda, again” 
http://harpers.org/archive/2016/01/a-special-relationship/ 
   

—CGE


> On Dec 25, 2015, at 2:31 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> Seymour Hersh, the doddering old fool who should have retired from journalism 
> at least as long ago as Woody Allen should have stopped making movies, has 
> written a preposterous article in the LRB that relies pretty much on the word 
> of an unnamed ex-official in the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The unnamed source 
> (what else would you expect) claims that the Pentagon has been effectively 
> operating as an arm of the Kremlin to back Bashar al-Assad in his war on the 
> Syrian rebels. If the Justice Department were to take these allegations 
> seriously, they’d arrest former Pentagon head for treason and not just put 
> him in jail but underneath the jail.
> 
> full: 
> http://louisproyect.org/2015/12/25/a-pentagon-kremlin-conspiracy-to-back-assad-who-is-seymour-hersh-kidding/

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Isis’s destruction of Palmyra: ‘The heart has been ripped out of the city' | World news | The Guardian

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/saving-palmyra-from-the-is-monster-is-escalating-western-wars-the-answer
 

...Iconoclasm can be reactionary or progressive. It is invariably reactionary 
when the targets belong to a cultural past. This is the case with IS, which 
seeks to erase history, deny other cultures, and foster ignorance, bigotry, and 
sectarianism.

But IS is not alone in this. Israeli archaeology is wilfully blind to the 
Islamic past of Palestine, bulldozing later layers to erase the evidence of the 
last 1400 years, prioritising the excavation of material designed to legitimise 
the present-day Zionist occupation. At Silwan, for example, just outside the 
Old City of Jerusalem, Israeli archaeologists destroyed a medieval cemetery of 
the Abbasid Caliphate. Their aim is to create a ‘City of David’ archaeological 
area which will feature a ‘museum of Jewish history’ and a ‘Jewish national 
park’.   

The American Army has also played a role in destroying the past. For two years 
it was camped on the site of ancient Babylon. Trenches were dug through the 
surface, sandbags filled with archaeological material, a 2,600-year-old 
pavement crushed by military vehicles, and glazed bricks gouged from the famous 
Ishtar Gate. A British Museum report on the damage was unequivocal: ‘This is 
tantamount to establishing a military camp around the Great Pyramid in Egypt or 
around Stonehenge in Britain.’

As for the sale of plundered antiquities, IS is exploiting the inflation of the 
international art market by a generation of trickle-up neoliberal economics 
which has seen accumulations of wealth at the top soar to unprecedented levels. 
It is much easier, it seems, to call for military attacks on Syria and Iraq 
than to suggest shutting down the auction houses in New York, banning the sale 
of antiquities in London, and confiscating the grotesque fortunes of the global 
oligarchs who are accumulating in private collections what ought to belong in 
the public domain.

IS is a mortal threat to the people of the Middle East. It has grown in the 
shattered social spaces left by the violence and poverty of the neoliberal era. 
It is a monster created by Western imperialism. It is a form of mass psychotic 
rage unleashed by a world gone mad. The very last thing the region needs is 
further escalation in the cycles of bombing, killing, and displacement that 
have made IS possible.

###


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Downfall of Phyllis Wise shows high cost of doing Israel lobby's bidding | The Electronic Intifada

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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What high cost? Academic administrators are a dime a dozen. (It pays well.)

Meanwhile, a principle has been reinforced. Voltaire said that the British navy 
occasionally executed an officer pour encourager les autres...

 On Aug 14, 2015, at 7:53 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
 marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
 
 https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/downfall-phyllis-wise-shows-high-cost-doing-israel-lobbys-bidding

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: University of Illinois board to vote on $400, 000 for Chancellor Wise - Chicago Tribune

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Maybe it’ll be a goad for Wise to tell what actually happened. 

It seems that the awful C. Kennedy was the source (or the conduit) for the 
instructions to fire Salaita.


 On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:53 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
 marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
 
 Thieves falling out. Chris Kennedy, the board member who pushed hardest for 
 firing Salaita (he is Bobby Kennedy's son), tells the Chicago Tribune that 
 Phyllis Wise, the chancellor who resigned in disgrace, should not get a 
 $400,000 retention bonus. (I got a $40,000 retention bonus from Columbia 
 University when I was terminated and deserved every penny.)
 
 http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-university-of-illinois-phyllis-wise-bonus-20150810-story.html


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Re: [Marxism] Pope’s Focus on Poor Revives Scorned Theology

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Of course it takes Marx and the Marxist tradition seriously, as it should. 

See the locus classicus, Gustavo Gutierrez, “A Theology of Liberation” (ET 
1971), which begins with Marx (p. 9f.) and Althusser et al. (pp. 81ff.).

There was more resistance to Aquinas' taking Aristotle and the Aristotelian 
tradition seriously.

This article once again scants the fact the Romero's murder was carried out by 
US death squads.

—CGE

 On May 24, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
 marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
 
 NY Times, May 24 2015
 Pope’s Focus on Poor Revives Scorned Theology
 By JIM YARDLEY and SIMON ROMERO
 
 VATICAN CITY — Six months after becoming the first Latin American pontiff, 
 Pope Francis invited an octogenarian priest from Peru for a private chat at 
 his Vatican residence. Not listed on the pope’s schedule, the September 2013 
 meeting with the priest, Gustavo Gutiérrez, soon became public — and was just 
 as quickly interpreted as a defining shift in the Roman Catholic Church.
 
 Father Gutiérrez is a founder of liberation theology, the Latin American 
 movement embracing the poor and calling for social change, which 
 conservatives once scorned as overtly Marxist and the Vatican treated with 
 hostility. Now, Father Gutiérrez is a respected Vatican visitor, and his 
 writings have been praised in the official Vatican newspaper. Francis has 
 brought other Latin American priests back into favor and often uses language 
 about the poor that has echoes of liberation theology.
 
 Honor Comes Late to Óscar Romero, a Martyr for the PoorMAY 22, 2015
 video Killed in El Salvador: An American StoryNOV. 9, 2014
 And then came Saturday, when throngs packed San Salvador for the 
 beatification ceremony of the murdered Salvadoran archbishop Óscar Romero, 
 leaving him one step from sainthood.
 
 The first pope from the developing world, Francis has placed the poor at the 
 center of his papacy. In doing so, he is directly engaging with a theological 
 movement that once sharply divided Catholics and was distrusted by his 
 predecessors, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Even Francis, as a 
 young Jesuit leader in Argentina, had qualms.
 
 Now, Francis speaks of creating “a poor church for the poor” and is seeking 
 to position Catholicism closer to the masses — a spiritual mission that comes 
 as he is also trying to revive the church in Latin America, where it has 
 steadily lost ground to evangelical congregations.
 
 For years, Vatican critics of liberation theology and conservative Latin 
 American bishops helped stall the canonization process for Archbishop Romero, 
 even though many Catholics in the region regard him as a towering moral 
 figure: an outspoken critic of social injustice and political repression who 
 was assassinated during Mass in 1980. Francis broke the stalemate.
 
 “It is very important,” Father Gutiérrez said. “Somebody who is assassinated 
 for this commitment to his people will illuminate many things in Latin 
 America.”
 
 The beatification is the prelude to what is likely to be a defining period of 
 Francis’ papacy, with trips to South America, Cuba and the United States; the 
 release of a much-awaited encyclical on environmental degradation and the 
 poor; and a meeting in Rome to determine whether and how the church will 
 change its approach to issues like homosexuality, contraception and divorce.
 
 By advancing the campaign for Archbishop Romero’s sainthood, Francis is 
 sending a signal that the allegiance of his church is to the poor, who once 
 saw some bishops as more aligned with discredited governments, many analysts 
 say. Indeed, Archbishop Romero was regarded as a popular saint in El Salvador 
 even as the Vatican blocked his canonization process.
 
 “It is not liberation theology that is being rehabilitated,” said Michael E. 
 Lee, an associate professor of theology at Fordham University who has written 
 extensively about liberation theology. “It is the church that is being 
 rehabilitated.”
 
 Liberation theory includes a critique of the structural causes of poverty and 
 a call for the church and the poor to organize for social change. Mr. Lee 
 said it was a broad school of thought: Movements differed in different 
 countries, with some more political in nature and others less so. The broader 
 movement emerged after a major meeting of Latin American bishops in Medellín, 
 Colombia, in 1968 and was rooted in the belief that the plight of the poor 
 should be central to interpreting the Bible and to the Christian mission.
 
 But with the Cold War in full force, some critics denounced liberation 
 theology as Marxist, and 

Re: [Marxism] What is 'Grace?

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Yeats seem to be thinking of individual action vs. action for a group: “...the 
leaf, the blossom or the bole?”

 On Monday, March 23, 2015 11:51 AM, Gary MacLennan 
 gary.maclenn...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Yes, the videos were available.  Extraordinary especially the snake dance 
 one. I was interested in the presence of the male gaze as well of course in 
 the dnance.  the latter brought to mind these lines from Yeats
 
 Labour is blossoming or dancing where
 The body is not bruised to pleasure soul.
 Nor beauty born out of its own despair,
 Nor blear-eyed wisdom out of midnight oil.
 O chestnut-tree, great-rooted blossomer,
 Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole?
 O body swayed to music, O brightening glance,
 How can we know the dancer from the dance?
 
 The lines have always been obscure to me, until I once watched a dance 
 workshop performed by the Bangarra Aboriginal Dance troupe.  The dancers were 
 working with Indigenous adolescent boys and girls and where they succeeded  
 most you could not tell the dancer from the dance. Perfect art seems 
 effortless or as you might say born out of grace.
 comradely
 Gary


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Re: [Marxism] There Is No Such Thing As Time | Popular Science

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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...Materialism is in trouble, and we're all materialists now. Everything is 
matter. There is no science that says beauty is truth or truth beauty, but the 
gondolas are heaving with name-tagged materialists having their minds blown by 
Venice. What is to be done with the sublime if you're proud to be a 
materialist? To save the appearance of value, no theory is too unlikely, no 
idea too far-out to float so long as it sounds like science - elementary 
particles with teeny-weeny consciousness; or a cosmos with attitude; or the 
life of the mind as the software of a biological computer. These are desperate 
measures, Spike! What does materialism remind you of? It's a faith. 

--Hilary in Tom Stoppard's The Hard Problem, currently on stage in London


On Mar 11, 2015, at 8:56 AM, Jeff via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu 
wrote:
 
 I appreciate that Louis posts to this list interesting articles on
 cosmology and the frontiers of physics (and other sciences) even though
 they have nothing to do with marxism. Unfortunately this isn't one of
 them: it has everything to do with Marxism, namely being diametrically
 opposed to materialism, a basic tenet of Marxism, as it makes the absurd
 (or meaningless) suggestion that time is an illusion.
 
 You don't have to read the article too closely to see that it describes a
 book in the popular press, from which the author surely receives
 royalties, but it so happens that the issues mentioned are absent (with
 good reason) from serious physics literature. This much is certain: time
 is as much or as little an illusion as is space. That must be true
 because time and space applying to different inertial reference frames
 become folded into each other, as is well known (and accepted) according
 the special theory of relativity. The four-dimensional space-time
 continuum means very simply that there are four independent variables
 specifying any event (or interaction), and this is the coordinate system
 used in any physical description: an event's location (3 dimensions) and
 time of occurance (1 dimension). What special relativity theory shows is
 that the time dimension is not common to observers who are in different
 inertial frames, that is, who are moving with respect to each other, and
 this understanding defies intuition and opens the door to pseudoscientific
 speculation and obfuscation.
 
 That modern view of the space-time continuum is so well established that
 no serious physicist would be caught dead musing whether time is an
 illusion unless they would question whether space is an illusion in the
 same breath. And indeed there are many many physicists who believe
 (perhaps because they were brought up with religion, for instance) that
 ALL reality is an illusion. So they could be called idealists, but the
 work those physicists do does not suffer as a result because they are
 still bound to the scientific method, and have to correctly describe the
 relationships between all of the illusory quantities that concern
 physics. It is only when non-intuitive scientific questions are addressed
 by non-scientists (or pseudo-scientists) on the basis of one or another
 philosophy that questions like time being an illusion (but not space)
 come to the fore, and this can make good reading for people interested in
 science who are not sufficiently informed to realize that these issues
 (unlike issues raised in other physics articles Louis has posted) are not
 meaningful or helpful in advancing physics.
 
 When the philosophy claimed to provide such an understanding is
 Marxism, I can only feel embarrassment. Shane Mage became noted on this
 list for arriving at physics conclusions solely on the basis of Marxist
 philosophy. Such conclusions are at best meaningless statements, but
 otherwise are propositions which can be, and usually have been,
 contradicted by experimental or observational evidence. If something like
 that were to be my first contact with Marxism, then I would have
 rejected it as idealism and never given it a fair hearing. So everyone
 please, don't make a mockery of Marxism by applying it ignorantly or in
 the service of pseudo-science.
 
 - Jeff
 


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Re: [Marxism] Erwin Marquit, R.I.P.

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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One of Jeffrey St Clair's charms - he publishes things with which he 
disagrees...

On Feb 22, 2015, at 12:30 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

 ...I like writing for CounterPunch. Jeff will publish anything I write.


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[Marxism] Diana Johnstone on the Paris massacre

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/07/what-to-say-when-you-have-nothing-to-say/

...I never liked the provocative covers of Charlie Hebdo, where the cartoons 
insulting the Prophet – or for that matter Jesus – tended to be displayed. A 
matter of taste. I don’t consider scatological, obscene drawings to be 
effective arguments, whether against religion or authority in general. 

[But] freedom of the press is also freedom to be vulgar and stupid from time to 
time. Charlie Hebdo was not in reality a model of freedom of speech. It has 
ended up, like so much of the “human rights left”, defending U.S.-led wars 
against “dictators”. In 2002, Philippe Val, who was editor in chief at the 
time, denounced Noam Chomsky for anti-Americanism and excessive criticism of 
Israel and of mainstream media.

...Charlie Hebdo was an extreme example of what is wrong with the “politically 
correct” line of the current French left. The irony is that the murderous 
attack by the apparently Islamist killers has suddenly sanctified this fading 
expression of extended adolescent revolt, which was losing its popular appeal, 
into the eternal banner of a Free Press and Liberty of Expression. Whatever the 
murderers intended, this is what they have achieved. Along with taking innocent 
lives, they have surely deepened the sense of brutal chaos in this world, 
aggravated distrust between ethnic groups in France and in Europe, and no doubt 
accomplished other evil results as well. In this age of suspicion, conspiracy 
theories are certain to proliferate.

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Re: [Marxism] Chuck Hagel's resignation

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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I think he lost a faction fight. His fate was already sealed when the 
administration dropped into last Friday night's news-hole (where embarrassing 
stories go to die) their expansion of the killing in Afghanistan, by air and 
ground, in spite of all Obama's lies about winding it down. 

There's a split in the Obama administration (i.e., the White House staff, NSC, 
State, Defense, Pentagon and some elements of Congress). The split mirrors the 
contest in the Mideast between the Sunni alliance (Saudi Arabia, Israel, 
Turkey, ISIS - supported by the US) and the Shia alliance (Iran, Syria, 
Hesbollah, Iraq, - supported by the SCO). 

Hagel's ( Kerry's?) faction want a deal with Iran so that Iran once again 
becomes America's cop on the beat in the Gulf. Their opponents want a 
redoubled effort of the US military to control the energy-rich region, to use 
it as a weapon to roll back Russian ( Chinese) economic influence in Eurasia. 
(Note what's happened to oil prices in the recent quarter; the Russian economy 
is dependent on them.)

The latter strategy is seen as serving the (economic) interests of the 1% more 
than the former. Therefore Hagel had to go, as he was tending to stand in the 
way (as shown by his hesitations re the ongoing attack on Assad). 

The liberals who supported Hagel for SecDef, on the grounds that he would be 
less belligerent than the rest of the Obama administration, may have been right.

Obama just can’t seem to acquire any cred as the stone-cold killer he is: 
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/11/21/the-first-un-war/.


On Nov 24, 2014, at 9:23 PM, A.R. G via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu 
wrote:

 What do others make of it? Why did Chuck Hagel resign and what does it mean
 for US policy in Syria?
 
 Every article I can find is vague and the ones that are not seem to think
 it's some kind of victory for war hawks.
 
 Anyone have any insight?
 
 Thanks,
 
 - Amith

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Re: [Marxism] Highway 61 Again--A Book Review

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Flower power.

On Nov 21, 2014, at 7:22 PM, Shane Mage via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
 
 On Nov 21, 2014, at 3:07 PM, Ron Jacobs via Marxism wrote:
 
 petal to the metal???


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[Marxism] Fwd: Kobane

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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  Original Message 
 Subject:  Re: [socialistdiscussion] Kobane
 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2014 14:35:19 -0700
 From: John Reimann 1999wild...@gmail.com [socialistdiscussion] 
 socialistdiscuss...@yahoogroups.com
 Reply-To: socialistdiscuss...@yahoogroups.com
 To:   socialistdiscuss...@yahoogroups.com
 
 
 I see that the fighters that the Erdogan regime is allowing to cross the 
 border now are the Peshmerga forces, which are the more conservative (and 
 I've also heard more corrupt) wing of the Kurdish forces. I can very well 
 imagine that a deal has been struck with them that they will enter Kobane not 
 only to counter IS, but also to counter the PKK forces there. I think it 
 can't be ruled out that this would also include countering the role of the 
 women's battalions who are fighting the IS.
 
 Nevertheless, this seems to me to be a very complex situation. The PKK, from 
 what I understand, is not calling for introduction of Western troops into 
 this struggle. In fact, I've read some statements for fighters on the ground 
 there who directly oppose this. I think socialists would have to agree with 
 this opposition. It seems to me that, on the one hand, it's likely that these 
 arms will go to the Peshmerga - the more conservative wing - and possibly at 
 some point even be used against the PKK, and you couldn't rule out also being 
 used against the women's battalions. (I say couldn't rule out because we 
 really don't know much about the situation on the ground.) However, of course 
 the Kobane Kurdish fighters need those arms. 
 
 Then there's also the other issue: We see how in Syria itself the political 
 movement from below was turned into a military movement controlled from 
 above, to the detriment of the workers and peasants of the entire country. 
 How does that relate to the struggle in Kobane? 
 
 I think it's impossible for us, with little or no concrete information about 
 the actual situation and the actual forces at work in Kobane and in Kurdistan 
 in general, to have real, precise answers. but it does seem to me that 
 socialists should have some general - very general- thoughts on the issue. 
 This includes the issue of Western powers sending arms to Kobane...

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[Marxism] The Emergency is Not the Islamic State but War

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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...I believe we should try very hard to hear the grievances of people in Iraq 
and the region, including those who have joined the Islamic State, regarding 
U.S. policies and wars that have radically affected their lives and well-being 
over the past three decades. It could be that many of the Iraqis who are 
fighting with Islamic State forces lived through Saddam Hussein’s oppression 
when he received enthusiastic support from the U.S. during the Iran-Iraq war in 
the 1980s. Many may be survivors of the U.S. Desert Storm bombing in 1991, 
which destroyed every electrical facility across Iraq. When the U.S. insisted 
on imposing crushing and murderous economic sanctions on Iraq for the next 13 
years, these sanctions directly contributed to the deaths of a half million 
children under age five. The children who died should have been teenagers or in 
their early 20s now; are some of the Islamic State fighters the brothers or 
cousins of the children who were punished to death by economic sanctions? 
Presumably many of these fighters lived through the U.S.-led 2003 Shock and Awe 
invasion and bombing of Iraq and the chaos the U.S. chose to create afterwards 
by using a war-shattered country as some sort of free market experiment; 
they’ve endured the repressive corruption of the regime the U.S. helped install 
in Saddam’s place.
The United Nations should take over the response to the Islamic State, and 
people should continue to pressure the U.S. and its allies to leave the 
response not merely to the U.N. but to its most democratic constituent body, 
the General Assembly.

But facing the bloody mess that has developed in Iraq and Syria, I think 
Archbishop Romero’s exhortation to the Salvadoran soldiers pertains directly to 
U.S. people. Suppose these words were slightly rewritten: I want to make a 
special appeal to the people of the United States. Each of you is one of us. 
The peoples you kill are your own brothers and sisters. When you hear a person 
telling you to kill, remember God’s words, ‘thou shalt not kill.’ No soldier is 
obliged to obey a law contrary to the law of God. In the name of God, in the 
name of our tormented people, I beseech you, I implore you …I command you to 
stop the repression.

The war on the Islamic State will distract us from what the U.S. has done and 
is doing to create further despair, in Iraq, and to enlist new recruits for the 
Islamic State. The Islamic State is the echo of the last war the U.S. waged in 
Iraq, the so-called “Shock and Awe” bombing and invasion. The emergency is not 
the Islamic State but war.

We in the U.S. must give up our notions of exceptionalism; recognize the 
economic and societal misery our country caused in Iraq; recognize that we are 
a perpetually war-waging, often aggressing nation; seek to make reparations; 
and find dramatic, clear ways to insist that Romero’s words be heard: Stop the 
killing.

[From 
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/20/the-emergency-is-not-the-islamic-state-but-war/]
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Re: [Marxism] anti-imperialism and solidarity in Australia

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Surely that's not an alternative: solidarity with the Kurds against IS (and 
against Turkey, backed by the US) as a matter of self-defense is compatible 
with a demand for US withdrawal from the region, and the submission of the 
matter to the UNSC, in accord with the UN Charter.

--CGE

On Oct 14, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Joseph Catron via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

 On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism 
 marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
 
 There's a vibrant debate going on over at Facebook among Australian
 comrades about what approach to take toward Kobani. It mirrors debates
 elsewhere over Syria as a whole, with the two positions being solidarity
 with the Kurds against IS, versus a strictly anti-intervention stance.



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[Marxism] An attack on academic freedom by the Israel lobby

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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The Salaita case at the U. of Illinois Urbana-Champaign:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgAvNE-wfYo

Excellent work at Urbana Public TV makes this session available.

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Re: [Marxism] One of Cuba's greatest achievements

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Maybe the NFL should be in charge of American police departments.


 NY Times, Sept. 8 2014
 Ray Rice Cut by Ravens and Suspended by N.F.L.
 By KEN BELSON
 
 The Baltimore Ravens terminated running back Ray Rice’s contract Monday after 
 a graphic video emerged of him punching his former fiancée, who is now his 
 wife, in a hotel elevator in Atlantic City in February. The video raised 
 fresh questions about N.F.L. Commissioner Roger Goodell’s handling of the 
 situation; in July, the N.F.L. suspended Rice for two games.
 
 The team, which had not previously disciplined Rice in any public way, 
 announced Rice’s release on its Twitter account Monday afternoon. Shortly 
 afterward, Goodell announced that Rice had been suspended from the N.F.L. 
 indefinitely.
 
 TMZ published the video Monday on its website. It showed Rice and Janay 
 Palmer, in an elevator, where Rice punched her. He then dragged her 
 unconscious body from the elevator.
 
 (clip)
 



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Re: [Marxism] Mark Twain on revolution

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Orwell, an equivocal figure himself, on the equivocal Twain:

http://orwell.ru/library/reviews/twain/english/e_twain

--CGE

On Aug 19, 2014, at 11:12 AM, Eli Stephens via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
 
 Some great quotes from one of America's greatest writers:
 
 http://www.liberationnews.org/mark-twain-on-revolution/
 
 Eli Stephens
 Left I on the News
 http://lefti.blogspot.com



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Re: [Marxism] [lbo-talk] Pope reinstates suspended pro-Sandinista priest

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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A step in the Long March through the Institutions for liberation theology,

On Aug 4, 2014, at 7:30 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote:

 Pope Francis has reinstated a Nicaraguan priest suspended by the Vatican
 in the 1980s for participating in Nicaragua's leftist Sandinista
 government.
 
 http://www.bigstory.ap.org/article/pope-reinstates-suspended-pro-sandinista-priest
 
 -- 
 Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen
 lytlað.
 ___
 http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk



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[Marxism] The US war in the Mideast

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes in the 
Financial Times (6/15) that ...Isis, even more than the Assad regime in Syria, 
is the principal threat to western interests.

What are those western interests that Isis threatens? If Iraq's principal 
product were asparagus, western interests in obtaining healthy green vegetables 
would presumably not be at risk. But Iraq has the the world's second largest 
oil reserves in the world: like asparagus, the US can get oil elsewhere - but 
its attempt to control world energy flows has led it to kill a million people 
in the Mideast in the last decade - and to continue to do so. 

Shortly after the invasion of Iraq, Zbigniew Brzezinski, one of the more 
astute of the senior planners and analysts, pointed out in the journal National 
Interest that America's control over the Middle East 'gives it indirect but 
politically critical leverage on the European and Asian economies that are also 
dependent on energy exports from the region.' If the United States can maintain 
its control over Iraq, with the world's second largest known oil reserves, and 
right at the heart of the world's major energy supplies, that will enhance 
significantly its strategic power and influence over its major rivals in the 
tripolar world that has been taking shape for the past 30 years: US-dominated 
North America, Europe, and Northeast Asia, linked to South and Southeast Asia 
economies. [Noam Chomsky]

The day Haass' article appeared, British PM Cameron repeated the US/UK cover 
story for ongoing imperial occupations in the Mideast (now made all the more 
urgent by the China/Russia oil deal): 

'...Cameorn told MPs today that Britain cannot afford to see the creation of an 
extreme Islamist regime in the middle of Iraq. [The PM has apparently never 
heard of the chief US client - after Israel - in the Mideast: Saudi Arabia. 
--CGE] The prime minister said that the militants of the Islamic State of Iraq 
and the Levant (Isis) threatening the government in Baghdad were also plotting 
terror attacks on the UK.

'I disagree with those people who those people who think this is nothing to do 
with us and if they want to have have some sort of extreme Islamist regime in 
the middle of Iraq, that won't affect us. It will, he said.

'The people in that regime - as well as trying to take territory - are also 
planning to attack us here at home in the United Kingdom. So the right answer 
is to be long-term, hard-headed, patient and intelligent with the interventions 
that we make.

'The most important intervention of all is to make sure that these governments 
are fully representative of the people who live in their countries, they close 
down the ungoverned space, and that they remove the support for the 
extremists.'

There's a move afoot in Parliament to impeach (an archaic remedy) Tony Blair 
for similar lies. The Bush-Blair-Obama evocation of terrorism (= the 
resistance of people in the Mideast to US-led invasion and occupation) as an 
excuse for more murder is wearing thin. 

--CGE

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/54d08a7e-f31c-11e3-a3f8-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3500Lir7X
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/18/tony-blair-impeach-iraq-war_n_5506525.html

###



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