[Biofuel] Water Grabbing to Follow Food Speculation?
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/01/19-3 Published on Saturday, January 19, 2013 by the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy Water Grabbing to Follow Food Speculation? Where are the checks and balances? by Shiney Varghese Writing in National Geographic in December 2012 about small-scale irrigation techniques with simple buckets, affordable pumps, drip lines, and other equipment that are enabling farm families to weather dry seasons, raise yields, diversify their crops, and lift themselves out of poverty water expert Sandra Postel of the Global Water Policy Project cautioned against reckless land and water-related investments in Africa. [U]nless African governments and foreign interests lend support to these farmer-driven initiatives, rather than undermine them through land and water deals that benefit large-scale, commercial schemes, the best opportunity in decades for societal advancement in the region will be squandered. That same month, the online publication Market Oracle reported that [t]he new 'water barons'-the Wall Street banks and elitist multibillionaires-are buying up water all over the world at unprecedented pace.The report reveals two phenomena that have been gathering speed, and that could potentially lead to profit accumulation at the cost of communities and commons -the expansion of market instruments beyond the water supply and sanitation to other areas of water governance, and the increasingly prominent role of financial institutions. In several instances this has meant that the government itself has set up public corporations that run like a business, contracting out water supply and sanitation operations to those with expertise, or entering into public-private-partnerships, often with water multinationals. This happened recently in Nagpur and New Delhi, India. In most rural areas, ensuring a clean drinking water supply and sanitation continues to be a challenge. For-profit companies such as Sarvajal have begun setting up pre-paid water kiosks (or water ATMs) that would dispense units of water upon the insertion of a pre-paid card. It is no surprise that these are popular among people who otherwise have no access to clean drinking water. With climate change, however, the water crisis is no longer perceived as confined to developing countries or even primarily a concern related to water supply and sanitation. Fresh water commons are becoming degraded and depleted in both developed and developing countries. In the United States, diversion of water for expanded commodity crop production, biofuels and gas hydro-fracking is compounding the crisis in rural areas. In areas ranging from the Ogallala aquifer to the Great Lakes in North America, water has been referred to as liquid gold. Billionaires such as T. Boone Pickens have been buying up land overlying the Ogallala aquifer, acquiring water rights; companies such as Dow Chemicals, with a long history of water pollution, are investing in the business of water purification, making pollution itself a cash-cow. But chemical companies are not alone: GE and its competitor Siemens have extensive portfolios that include an array of water technologies to serve the needs of industrial customers, municipal water suppliers or governments. (In the last year and a half two Minnesota based companies have become large players in this business-Ecolab, by acquiring Nalco and Pentair by merging with Tyco's Flow Control unit-both now belonging to SP's 500.) The financial industry has also zeroed in on water. In the summer of 2011, Citigroup issued a report on water investments. The much quoted statement by Willem Buiter (chief economist at Citigroup) gives an inkling of Citigroup's conclusion: Water as an asset class will, in my view, become eventually the single most important physical-commodity based asset class, dwarfing oil, copper, agricultural commodities and precious metals. Once again, several others had already seen water as an important investment opportunity, including GE's Energy Financial Services, Goldman Sachs and several asset management firms that are involved investing in farmland in Asia, Africa, South America and Eastern Europe. Given these recent trends, initiatives that track the water use of companies or map information regarding water related risks could be double edged. Some examples include the 'water disclosure project' and the 'water-mapping project'. Both are initiated by non-profits/ think-tanks, the former by UK-based Carbon Disclosure Project and the latter by the US-based World Resources Institute. While distinct, they are linked by their shared constituency: global investors concerned about water-related risks. These initiatives could help companies identify and reduce their water footprint, or could lead to company investments that follow water and grab it. The Carbon Disclosure Project's water disclosure project seeks to help
[Biofuel] Water: The Newest Wave of Corporate Social Responsibility
http://www.prwatch.org/node/8526 Water: The Newest Wave of Corporate Social Responsibility Diane Farsetta on September 1, 2009 Even critics of World Water Week, held annually in Stockholm, Sweden, agree that it's an important forum where thousands of people working on water issues share information. This year's event, held from August 16 to 22, placed special emphasis on the relationship between water and climate change. The closing statement (pdf) was literally a message to COP15, the major United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change meeting in Copenhagen, Denmark, this December. Water is a key medium through which climate change impacts will be felt, it reads, adding that water-related adaptation should be seen as part of the solution. The statement also calls for funding to assist vulnerable, low income countries already affected by climate change, along with longer-term adaptation efforts. So why are there critics of World Water Week? In a word, Nestlé. In 2007, not only did the world's largest bottler of water sponsor World Water Week, but speakers were also given bottled water to drink. Civil society groups protested and the plastic bottles disappeared, but Nestle did not. The 2009 event was again sponsored by Nestle, along with Sweco, a sustainable engineering and design company offering solutions for water supply, wastewater treatment, solid waste management and site remediation; Black Veatch, an engineering, consulting and construction company that calls itself one of the world's foremost providers of solutions for energy and water needs; and the charitable arm of Femsa, the largest beverage company in Latin America. In other words, World Water Week has become an opportunity for companies selling water, beverages, and water and sanitation services to grab a seat at the table, as water practices and policies are discussed. It must also be a networking gold mine, where companies can pitch their services to government representatives from around the globe. Another example of the creeping corporate influence is an international public opinion survey released to coincide with this year's World Water Week. The survey, which received media attention, found that more than 90 percent of respondents consider water pollution and a shortage of fresh water to be serious problems. The summary of survey results interpreted respondents' identifying both governments and companies as responsible for ensuring clean drinking water as indicating that [public-private] partnerships are an important component to resolving the world's fresh water sustainability challenges. The survey was funded by the Molson Coors Brewing Company. Molson Coors wasn't the only beer company lifting a frosted mug to World Water Week. SAB Miller paired with the environmental group WWF on a report presented at the event. After studying the water use, or footprint, for Miller beers made in South Africa and the Czech Republic, the report concluded that the total water involved ... is overwhelmingly used on the farm rather than in the brewery. Conveniently for SAB Miller, WWF added that beer's water footprint is relatively small, with a recent Pacific Institute study finding that coffee, wine and apple juice all have water footprints more than three times that of beer. Somehow, promoting beer as a less water-intensive beverage choice doesn't quite seem to meet the World Water Week goal of advancing the water, environment, health, livelihood and poverty reduction agendas. Carrying water for corporate social responsibility World Water Week is only one way in which corporations seek to promote themselves as good citizens on water issues. Molson Coors is a good case study. The beer maker recently partnered with Circle of Blue, which describes itself as an international network of leading journalists, scientists and communications design experts. Molson Coors also belongs to the Beverage Industry Environmental Roundtable, a corporate attempt to define a common framework for [environmental] stewardship -- without any pesky regulatory agency or independent watchdog groups present. Molson Coors also signed onto the CEO Water Mandate, part of the United Nations' voluntary corporate social responsibility (CSR) program, the Global Compact. Civil society groups fault both the Global Compact and CEO Water Mandate for allowing corporations to reap PR benefits from associating with the UN, without making significant changes to business practices. In March 2008, an international coalition of grassroots groups working on water issues wrote (pdf) to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, Led by Coca Cola, which has a highly questionable track record when it comes to water takings and water pollution, the companies which have signed on to the CEO Water Mandate all have a vested interest in securing control over water sources and services in times of increasing water scarcity.
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Thanks for your responses. I'm going to meet the vendor, see an installation, and ask him a few questions. Will report back. Best James - Original Message - From: Jon Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Their science lesson throws a lot of suspicion on the whole process. For instance, they somehow make the claim that hydrogen atoms can exist independently (they bond together in pairs...) and that you are *BURNING* hydrogen and oxygen in your engine (my emphasis). Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Oh, and they claim that the water is supposed to cool your engine and prolong its life. Seems unlikely at best, if they're trying to vaporize carbon. Oh, and the melting points of aluminum and iron, the principal materials that engine blocks are made of, are on the scale of 1000 C. So, either they're making your engine slowly melt down and lying to you about it, or lying to you about the true effects of their apparatus. I'll go ahead and agree with just about all the concerns Darryl had... particularly the cost of water. Tap water will leave mineral deposits that will slowly but surely clog your system, so either you must buy distilled water or produce your own. I'll also offer a competitively priced (bidding starts at 2/3rds of whatever they're charging) consultation for improving your fuel mileage. Of course, I'll just be reading you what's in the econogics link and then sending along a fuel economy good luck charm to hang on your rear-view mirror... all best, Jon --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 12:51 PM James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice is to be highly skeptical about such devices, do your homework including a realistic cost-benefit analysis (and considering how long you expect to be using this vehicle), check references, and get a written guarantee regarding fuel savings to be obtained. Do all the other fuel saving things on my fuel savings page that seem appropriate first. Once that has been done, use your documented fuel usage data as the baseline for discussions with this firm and the guarantee on fuel savings to be had. I strongly recommend use of fuel usage logs and even better, fuel consumption computers. I had one in a car we used about 15 years
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Met the guy. The kit looks credible. He says he isn't qualified to answer questions on chemistry, but he requests that I forward your mails to him and he will pass them onto the parent (US) company for comments. I plan send the messages tomorrow, (no names) so if anyone would prefer me not to send their comments, please post to that effect. Thanks James - Original Message - From: James Machin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Thanks for your responses. I'm going to meet the vendor, see an installation, and ask him a few questions. Will report back. Best James - Original Message - From: Jon Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Their science lesson throws a lot of suspicion on the whole process. For instance, they somehow make the claim that hydrogen atoms can exist independently (they bond together in pairs...) and that you are *BURNING* hydrogen and oxygen in your engine (my emphasis). Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Oh, and they claim that the water is supposed to cool your engine and prolong its life. Seems unlikely at best, if they're trying to vaporize carbon. Oh, and the melting points of aluminum and iron, the principal materials that engine blocks are made of, are on the scale of 1000 C. So, either they're making your engine slowly melt down and lying to you about it, or lying to you about the true effects of their apparatus. I'll go ahead and agree with just about all the concerns Darryl had... particularly the cost of water. Tap water will leave mineral deposits that will slowly but surely clog your system, so either you must buy distilled water or produce your own. I'll also offer a competitively priced (bidding starts at 2/3rds of whatever they're charging) consultation for improving your fuel mileage. Of course, I'll just be reading you what's in the econogics link and then sending along a fuel economy good luck charm to hang on your rear-view mirror... all best, Jon --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 12:51 PM James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Hi Jon I can't find text on the site relating to your comment... Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Can you direct me please? James - Original Message - From: Jon Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Their science lesson throws a lot of suspicion on the whole process. For instance, they somehow make the claim that hydrogen atoms can exist independently (they bond together in pairs...) and that you are *BURNING* hydrogen and oxygen in your engine (my emphasis). Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Oh, and they claim that the water is supposed to cool your engine and prolong its life. Seems unlikely at best, if they're trying to vaporize carbon. Oh, and the melting points of aluminum and iron, the principal materials that engine blocks are made of, are on the scale of 1000 C. So, either they're making your engine slowly melt down and lying to you about it, or lying to you about the true effects of their apparatus. I'll go ahead and agree with just about all the concerns Darryl had... particularly the cost of water. Tap water will leave mineral deposits that will slowly but surely clog your system, so either you must buy distilled water or produce your own. I'll also offer a competitively priced (bidding starts at 2/3rds of whatever they're charging) consultation for improving your fuel mileage. Of course, I'll just be reading you what's in the econogics link and then sending along a fuel economy good luck charm to hang on your rear-view mirror... all best, Jon --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 12:51 PM James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice is to be highly skeptical about such devices, do your homework including a realistic cost-benefit analysis (and considering how long you expect to be using this vehicle), check references, and get a written guarantee regarding fuel savings to be obtained. Do all the other fuel saving things on my fuel savings page that seem appropriate first. Once that has been done, use your documented fuel usage data as the baseline for discussions with this firm and the guarantee on fuel savings to be had. I strongly recommend
[Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Hi folks There's a man offering to fit the water fuel conversion here. Does anyone have any experience of this kit? (Doesn't seem to be anything in the archives) Here's the product.. http://www.water-fuel-hybrid.com/ Best James ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
No actual experience, I'm afraid, but this does bear a certain resemblance to myriad other schemes and therefore puts me in mind of snake-oil. One of the photos shows a pair of billet-aluminium-looking canisters. I suspect that that is where the snakes are kept. I'm no chemist, but the chemistry lecture doesn't quite ring true even so, and the attribution of engine wear etc. to the presence of carbon in the fuel is just plain false. It seems to exploit the recently-amplified popular view of carbon as a sort of sticky black grime, on which much of the modern craze for molecule-counting (giving us your money will save x tonnes of virulent treacle) depends, together with vintage-era images of decoking a cylinder head with a hammer and chisel. I would therefore incline not to take this thing seriously. Best regards Dawie Coetzee From: James Machin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, 9 March, 2009 15:31:23 Subject: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid Hi folks There's a man offering to fit the water fuel conversion here. Does anyone have any experience of this kit? (Doesn't seem to be anything in the archives) Here's the product.. http://www.water-fuel-hybrid.com/ Best James ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090309/6d064b1e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice is to be highly skeptical about such devices, do your homework including a realistic cost-benefit analysis (and considering how long you expect to be using this vehicle), check references, and get a written guarantee regarding fuel savings to be obtained. Do all the other fuel saving things on my fuel savings page that seem appropriate first. Once that has been done, use your documented fuel usage data as the baseline for discussions with this firm and the guarantee on fuel savings to be had. I strongly recommend use of fuel usage logs and even better, fuel consumption computers. I had one in a car we used about 15 years ago, and it revealed some fascinating things about relative fuel consumption across different drivers in the same vehicle. With oil prices at US$40 a barrel or thereabouts, I can't imagine that this set-up would be cost-effective for a typical private car. Darryl McMahon Author, The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy James Machin wrote: Hi folks There's a man offering to fit the water fuel conversion here. Does anyone have any experience of this kit? (Doesn't seem to be anything in the archives) Here's the product.. http://www.water-fuel-hybrid.com/ Best James -- Darryl McMahon The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook) http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ Latest review of The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy in Greenlife Magazine http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/tenheGLspring2009.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid
Their science lesson throws a lot of suspicion on the whole process. For instance, they somehow make the claim that hydrogen atoms can exist independently (they bond together in pairs...) and that you are *BURNING* hydrogen and oxygen in your engine (my emphasis). Additionally the idea that carbon vaporizes at 3000 C is bunk; quick reference checks indicate that its boiling point is 500 degrees above that. Oh, and they claim that the water is supposed to cool your engine and prolong its life. Seems unlikely at best, if they're trying to vaporize carbon. Oh, and the melting points of aluminum and iron, the principal materials that engine blocks are made of, are on the scale of 1000 C. So, either they're making your engine slowly melt down and lying to you about it, or lying to you about the true effects of their apparatus. I'll go ahead and agree with just about all the concerns Darryl had... particularly the cost of water. Tap water will leave mineral deposits that will slowly but surely clog your system, so either you must buy distilled water or produce your own. I'll also offer a competitively priced (bidding starts at 2/3rds of whatever they're charging) consultation for improving your fuel mileage. Of course, I'll just be reading you what's in the econogics link and then sending along a fuel economy good luck charm to hang on your rear-view mirror... all best, Jon --- On Mon, 3/9/09, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water-fuel hybrid To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Monday, March 9, 2009, 12:51 PM James, there could be a germ of validity in this. I had a quick look at the site, and this is not one of the dozens of sites that talks about water as a sole fuel for an internal combustion engine. (That concept is bunk in my opinion.) The concept here is that you use surplus energy from the electrical system to electrolyse distilled water into hydrogen and oxygen and then eject the generated hydrogen into the combustion process. A bit of an in-situ fuel upgrader. I am aware of a company that was installing such units on large trucks and had testimonials from fleet operators with what appeared to be objective data to support their claims. (Today, their Web site does not appear to be working - www.chechfi.ca. Perhaps they have succumbed to low oil prices.) However, there are some caveats. It has to be done right to get beneficial results, and that's non-trivial. You have to use distilled water. In some places, that's more expensive than gasoline / petrol. The water has to be kept from freezing, or the system is non-functional. The gains are variable, and dependent on the engine and fuel being used. You need to travel a lot of kilometres / miles to recoup your investment, and that will vary based on the price of the fuel being displaced. The company I referenced above focused on long-haul trucks because that's the niche where the investment made sense - when gasoline was over Cdn$1/litre. This will not get you off the primary fuel - it only promises to reduce the amount of that fuel being used. IIRC, the CHECHFI were reporting gains of 10-15% in fuel economy. I am not a fan of anecdotal reports, especially only after a short time of operation in the modified mode and no evidence of detailed records of pre-conversion data. I am a believer in A-B-A testing - that is, detailed records before the modification, after the modification, and again after the modification has been removed / deactivated. (BTW, I have offered to do such testing on my own vehicles for several firms offering magic magnets that were supposed to improve fuel economy, but none have taken me up on it.) BTW, most drivers can achieve better gains than that simply by changing their driver behaviour a bit and doing some common sense things around their vehicle maintenance regime. Have a look at my Saving Fuel page for tips. http://www.econogics.com/en/savefuel.htm In short, my advice is to be highly skeptical about such devices, do your homework including a realistic cost-benefit analysis (and considering how long you expect to be using this vehicle), check references, and get a written guarantee regarding fuel savings to be obtained. Do all the other fuel saving things on my fuel savings page that seem appropriate first. Once that has been done, use your documented fuel usage data as the baseline for discussions with this firm and the guarantee on fuel savings to be had. I strongly recommend use of fuel usage logs and even better, fuel consumption computers. I had one in a car we used about 15 years ago, and it revealed some fascinating things about relative fuel consumption across different drivers in the same vehicle. With oil prices at US$40 a barrel or thereabouts, I can't imagine that this set-up would be cost-effective for a typical private car. Darryl
Re: [Biofuel] Water in my Methanol
Roger, You could try adding a drying agent to the drum to absorb the water (depends on how much leaked in though). I remember in chem lab in school in order to dry our solvent system when we were doing synthesis adding Sodium Sulfate which absorbed the water, but didn't dissolve in the organic solvent to an appreciable extent. Then you could just filter it out into another drum, or draw the methanol from the top of the drum (the drying agent should sink to the bottom). If you can't find sodium sulfate you could get Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt) or Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) and use those, although there water absorbing abilities will be slightly different (you'll have to add more or less that is). If you do this, make sure you agitate the tank for a little while so that the water gets absorbed (other wise the drying agent will just sink to the bottom, and won't get everything that's already in the methanol, since MeOH and Water are miscible). Let me know if that helps or works. -- Raymond G. Burns III -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080503/11d7ec08/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in my Methanol
Make sure there is actually water in the methanol. For ethanol dehydrating, there are two ways to go. I don't know if this works with methanol. Take lime (CaO) and make sure it is dry and coarse (unslaked). Fill a 55 gallon drum two thirds with this stuff. Add the wet alcohol, and let it sit overnight, but keep at room temperature. The lime will selectively adsorb the water, leaving the alcohol behind. You will need to vaporize the remaining methanol and distill it because the lime will flake into very tiny particles, which you don't want in your fuel. However, you can probably get methanol to evaporate with just solar energy pretty easily, paint a drum black and collect the fumes. The other way is to use cracked corn, or any cellulosic material. With cellulosic adsorption, it only works if you all the vapors to travel through the corn, unlike lime which works in the liquid state. Kurt Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 13:32:55 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Water in my Methanol Any suggestions? It looks like water got in my new 55-gal drum of Methanol. I keep it outside for obvious reasons but it looks like water got in somehow. The only thought I had was to set up a distiller to heat up the mixture to 160°F and then cool the vapor into another vessel much like the methanol-recovery system. This would be on a small scale thought. Just thought I would ask. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_052008 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080503/c5387745/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water in my Methanol
Any suggestions? It looks like water got in my new 55-gal drum of Methanol. I keep it outside for obvious reasons but it looks like water got in somehow. The only thought I had was to set up a distiller to heat up the mixture to 160°F and then cool the vapor into another vessel much like the methanol-recovery system. This would be on a small scale thought. Just thought I would ask. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in my Methanol
On May 2, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Roger wrote: Any suggestions? It looks like water got in my new 55-gal drum of Methanol. I keep it outside for obvious reasons but it looks like water got in somehow. The only thought I had was to set up a distiller to heat up the mixture to 160°F and then cool the vapor into another vessel much like the methanol-recovery system. What leads you to believe your methanol is wet? Do you have access to a brewer's hydrometer? Methanol has almost exactly the same specific gravity as ethanol, so a beermaker's hydrometer could tell you exactly how much water was in there. If your methanol is pure (dry) to the extent of, say, 95%, it will probably work fine provided your oil is very dry and not too rancid (not too high in free fatty acids). If it's down around 90%, you might need to distill, but a simple pot still as you describe might not do it. You really need to find a hydrometer to assess the problem.or just try a small batch and see. The symptom of excessive water would be a lot of soap. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water instead of gas - CSC inventor devises hydrogen fuel generation system
Hello Walker EROEI for hydrogen (and ethanol) is negative. Why do you say that the EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) for ethanol is negative? Best Keith robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've long ago lost all my enthusiasm for hydrogen . . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ Walker http://ca.geocities.com/vladilyich/(Ben W. Gardner) Sedona, Az http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1411638484/qid=1152564866/sr=1-1/re f=sr_1_1/002-7079739-3838404?s=booksv=glancen=283155In The Beginning - ISBN: 1-4116-3848-4 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1411638514/qid=1152564866/sr=1-2/re f=sr_1_2/002-7079739-3838404?s=booksv=glancen=283155Just In Time - ISBN 1-4116-3851-4 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water instead of gas - CSC inventor devises hydrogen fuel generation system
That's interesting. I used to dabble with aquafuel generators years ago. My crude set up used alot of juice to operate and I just put the project on the back shelf. My interest never waned though and I have been encouraged lately by some others working on low energy plasma generators. Anyone thought of using ultrsonic transducers AND plasma?? Just an inkling that won't go away until I investigate it further. LOL, Anyway in regard to the inducted plasma system this guy has a patent on I'd like to get more info on how his system is supposed to work. He talks about carbon rods, so I assume he means plasma points and it sounds like he is generating aquafuel not browns or h2 because he is using carbon electrodes and burning them in his plasma = aquafuel,. I don't remember the breakdown but it is a combination of carbon monoxide, acetylene and hydrogen curious. I have an electrochemistry text , 2 volume set actually, and I remember reading the energy to electrolyze plasma was a small fraction of a water cell. Hat would prob be a solar concentrator. I remember reading some references to the same thing. Solar powered electrolysers...I like it! regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water instead of gas - CSC inventor devises hydrogen fuel generation system Sent: 15 Apr '07 20:01 I have an electrochemistry text , 2 volume set actually, and I remember reading the energy to electrolyze plasma was a small fraction of a water cell. Hat would prob be a solar concentrator. Have to dig it out sometime Kirk _ROBERT AND BENITA RABELLO [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: AltEnergyNetwork wrote: I know that we've seen these types of systems and announcements before but this guy seems to be taking a different approach regards tallex Not really. Using plasma electrolysis became an in vogue idea among hydrogen enthusiasts back in the 1980's. It doesn't solve the problem of Where does the power come from? and likely suffers from the same measurement issues that plague attempts to electrolyze water using resonant frequencies and alternating current. (e.g. the measurements most likely include steam created in the process.) I've long ago lost all my enthusiasm for hydrogen . . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next_Generation_Grid http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid Alternative_Energy_Politics http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics Tomorrow-energy http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water instead of gas - CSC inventor devises hydrogen fuel generation system
I know that we've seen these types of systems and announcements before but this guy seems to be taking a different approach regards tallex Water instead of gas CSC inventor devises hydrogen fuel generation system http://www.register-mail.com/stories/041507/BIZ_BCTHB3AM.GID.shtml Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next_Generation_Grid http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid Alternative_Energy_Politics http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics Tomorrow-energy http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water instead of gas - CSC inventor devises hydrogen fuel generation system
AltEnergyNetwork wrote: I know that we've seen these types of systems and announcements before but this guy seems to be taking a different approach regards tallex Not really. Using plasma electrolysis became an in vogue idea among hydrogen enthusiasts back in the 1980's. It doesn't solve the problem of Where does the power come from? and likely suffers from the same measurement issues that plague attempts to electrolyze water using resonant frequencies and alternating current. (e.g. the measurements most likely include steam created in the process.) I've long ago lost all my enthusiasm for hydrogen . . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water instead of gas - CSC inventor devises hydrogen fuel generation system
EROEI for hydrogen (and ethanol) is negative. robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've long ago lost all my enthusiasm for hydrogen . . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ Walker (Ben W. Gardner) Sedona, Az In The Beginning - ISBN: 1-4116-3848-4 Just In Time - ISBN 1-4116-3851-4 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water instead of gas - CSC inventor devises hydrogen fuel generation system
I have an electrochemistry text , 2 volume set actually, and I remember reading the energy to electrolyze plasma was a small fraction of a water cell. Hat would prob be a solar concentrator. Have to dig it out sometime Kirk robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AltEnergyNetwork wrote: I know that we've seen these types of systems and announcements before but this guy seems to be taking a different approach regards tallex Not really. Using plasma electrolysis became an in vogue idea among hydrogen enthusiasts back in the 1980's. It doesn't solve the problem of Where does the power come from? and likely suffers from the same measurement issues that plague attempts to electrolyze water using resonant frequencies and alternating current. (e.g. the measurements most likely include steam created in the process.) I've long ago lost all my enthusiasm for hydrogen . . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Ahhh...imagining that irresistible new car smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water _ (Was Re: 6 stroke motor)
I see it now, water being locked up in seawater, distilling seems like an option, Nature does it all the time... However, considering that the oceans have been a waste dump for the toxins that industry creates, I would hesitate about considering distilled seawater clean. Sure, the salts won't vaporize at water-distillation temperatures, however, I expect that a number of volatile hydrocarbons could end up with the distilled water. Reverse Osmosis comes to mind as a secondary filtration stage... doug swanson Jason Katie wrote: heres where a solar still would come in handy. the only drawback is you would have to scrape the mineral sediments out of the container every so often. if a survivalist can suck the water out of desert sand with a plastic bag, saltwater is childs play. - Original Message - *From:* Zeke Yewdall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:31 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] 6 stroke motor It's not so much peak water, as peak usueable water. If we want freshwater, the oceans are out (or at least expensive to turn into fresh water). That's the problem -- if areas become more arid and glaciers melt, even more of the earth's water will be locked up as saltwater. Z On 1/26/07, *doug swanson* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I hear the term peak water and know the idea behind it, but I can't wrap my mind around the idea that water will become scarcer as the globe warms, unless it escapes our atmosphere into space. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date: 1/24/2007 6:48 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/655 - Release Date: 1/28/2007 1:12 PM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
Kirk McLoren wrote: Fuel cells of 50% efficiency can be purchased now. Really? Where? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
Comparison of Fuel Cell Technologies Fuel Cell Type Common Electrolyte Operating Temperature System Output Efficiency Applications Advantages Disadvantages Polymer Electrolyte Membrane (PEM)* Solid organic polymer poly-perfluorosulfonic acid 50 - 100°C 122 - 212°F 1kW 250kW 50-60% electric Back-up power Portable power Small distributed generation Transportation Solid electrolyte reduces corrosion electrolyte management problems Low temperature Quick start-up Requires expensive catalysts High sensitivity to fuel impurities Low temperature waste heat Alkaline (AFC) Aqueous solution of potassium hydroxide soaked in a matrix 90 - 100°C 194 - 212°F 10kW 100kW 60-70% electric Military Space Cathode reaction faster in alkaline electrolyte so high performance Expensive removal of CO2 from fuel and air streams required Phosphoric Acid (PAFC) Liquid phosphoric acid soaked in a matrix 150 - 200°C 302 - 392°F 50kW 1MW (250kW module typical) 80 to 85% overall with combined heat and power (CHP (36-42% electric) Distributed generation High efficiency Increased tolerance to impurities in hydrogen Suitable for CHP Requires platinum catalysts Low current and power Large size/weight Molten Carbonate (MCFC) Liquid solution of lithium, sodium, and/or potassium carbonates, soaked in a matrix 600 - 700°C 1112 - 1292°F 1kW 1MW (250kW module typical) 85% overall with CHP (60% electric) Electric utility Large distributed generation High efficiency Fuel flexibility Can use a variety of catalysts Suitable for CHP High temperature speeds corrosion and breakdown of cell components Complex electrolyte management Slow start-up Solid Oxide (SOFC) Solid zirconium oxide to which a small amount of yttira is added 650 - 1000°C 1202 - 1832°F 5kW 3MW 85% overall with CHP (60% electric) Auxiliary power Electric utility Large distributed generation High efficiency Fuel flexibility Can use a variety of catalysts Solid electrolyte reduces electrolyte management problems Suitable for CHP High temperature enhances corrosion and breakdown of cell components Slow start-up http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/fuelcells/fc_types.html pdf link at bottom of page Kirk Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: Fuel cells of 50% efficiency can be purchased now. Really? Where? ___ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
Hello Doug, Andrew et al. Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to obtain the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual motion machine. You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient, which they are very far from being. Doug Woodard St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
ok doug, thanks I think that makes a little more sense, I hadnt taken that into account. Andrew On 12/28/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual motion machine. You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient, which they are very far from being. Doug Woodard St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
If that is the case, how do you explain a car that runs off of this? I have seen video, and from what I understand it runs off only the normal battery used to start the car and the hydrogen remove from sea water. I am not an expert on this at all, but it definately interests me. By the way, where do you get the efficiences for an electrolysis reactor? Andrew On 12/28/06, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is this. The electrolyser is 70% efficient best case. The engine is 30% efficient best case - in use probably 8% So we have .7 x .3 = .21 conversion of electricity to rear wheel power best case. And what losses are associated with the electricity? they make the 21 % even lower and what powered the electricity? Websites like this are a cruel joke at best. If photovoltaics were free and ran an electrolyzer during the day to charge a hydride tank that you could refill from when you got home then a hydrogen vehicle would be viable. Better yet a fuel cell to escape the low efficiency of thermal processes. Fuel cells of 50% efficiency can be purchased now. Then a fuel cell electric car. Or 2 battery banks rotated daily - that may get you above 80% on storage/transport of power. Likewise 90% on electric motors can be achieved. Burning hydrogen in internal combustion is wasteful. Kirk *Andrew Katerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]* wrote: Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
Hi Jan, Andrew and all If you go to solar, as doug pointed out, then you have lost that simple idea of just pumping water into the fuel tank and it turns to hydrogen/oxygen mix on demand. Now you would have to design and build a storage tank to store the hydrogen in when the sun was out. As I understand it storing hydrogen is not an easy task, there are many problems, keeping it in the tank is among them. As you probably know hydrogen atom is very small therefore most materials are infact pourous(spelled wrong I think) so the gas goes right through them. A few years ago I got really interested in this idea, like a fool I even went and bought a book, (I use the turm loosely) it was really an 8 page pamphlet and a waste of 20 bucks. I carefully built a reactor as per instructions (somewhat scaled down) about 1/3 the size of the one in the 'book'. It was quite impressive looking and I had visions of FREE fuel. Well you know what is said about a FREE RIDE. After about 10 minutes at 12 volts (I had two balloons hooked securely to the outputs on the reactor, one for hydrogen the other for oxygen) the hydrogen balloon was about the size of a baseball the oxygen a little bigger than a softball. I even built a 555 timer circuit to pulse 19Hz to the electrodes (read somewhere that this would help crack the water using less power) to no measurable avail. The only increase was detected with an increase in voltage. I don't know about you folks but I hate to try and squeeze into a car that only used enough hydrogen to fill a soccar ball ( about 2/3's bigger than a baseball) in ten minutes. Buy the way the hydrogen ballon was limp and empty in less than 1 hour. I checked it for leaks with air and there were non. Andrew, just 2 cents from someone that fell for the hype!! Please don't fall for the same thing. Wildbill Jan Warnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Doug, Andrew et al. Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to obtain the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual motion machine. You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient, which they are very far from being. Doug Woodard St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Wildbill Sutton.VT __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
If you are talking about the water car - it can't work without breaking the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics. Given the vague reference to gas/water hybrid, I'm not clear what they're talking about. Please take careful note of the caveats on the referenced Web site, e.g., So although we cannot guarantee it, we believe these plans will enable you to build a car that runs on water and it is suggested you try this out to begin with on a second vehicle you own, one that you don't need to live with everyday, until you perfect this technology. Electrolysis is about 70% efficient under optimum, laboratory conditions. In large scale, commercial operations, about 60%. In a mobile application, based on variable voltages (e.g., car alternator with voltage regulator affected by engine operating speed), I can't imagine it exceeding 50%, and I doubt it will do that well. That is also assuming distilled water, not tap or sea water. Electrolysis of salt will lead either to electroplating on the electrodes - reducing effectiveness, or production of other gases, e.g., chlorine gas from sodium-chloride - table salt, or both. Assuming 100% effectiveness of storing and feeding of the hydrogen to the combustion chamber (highly unlikely as hydrogen will easily leak out of seals that are suitable for liquid fuels), running the unmodified gasoline engine on hydrogen introduces some additional issues. The compression ratio is not optimized for hydrogen. Hydrogen embrittles metals typically used in automotive engines. The hydrogen should burn hotter than gasoline, which will affect the spark plugs and lubricating oil. However, we are still up against Carnot as a theoretical limit for efficiency, and we are not going to even get close in this scenario. Now, we have to take some of the power from the heat engine to power the parasitic alternator to generate electricity to produce more hydrogen via electrolysis. Assuming the belt is properly tensioned, it will be about 95% efficient turning the alternator. The alternator is likely about 60-70% efficient, assuming standard automotive technology (diode losses, windage losses, bearing losses, large air gap, etc). More losses via the voltage regulator. Now we have the electricity to start the electrolysis reaction, completing the energy cycle. We lost over 50% in electrolysis, at least 60% in the heat engine, and at least 40% in running the alternator. There may be additional sources of loss, not even allowing for leakage. So, best case (0.5 x 0.4 x 0.6 = 0.12) is 12% efficiency in the cycle, or 88% conversion losses. So unless you can explain where the at least factor of 9 over-unity step is introduced, my understanding of the system says this can't work. For more on why the hydrogen energy cycle is a loser and why the hydrogen economy won't work (and other things that do), I refer you to my book, The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy. Darryl McMahon Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Doug, Andrew et al. Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to obtain the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual motion machine. You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient, which they are very far from being. Doug Woodard St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew -- Darryl McMahon It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (now in print and eBook) http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
The literature for industrial chemistry has process efficiency as part of the discussion. An important part if you are in business. As for video I can tell you and show you anything. You cant verify what is shown. Things that seem to be too good to be true usually are. If they had a rational efficient process we would all be interested. Kirk Andrew Katerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If that is the case, how do you explain a car that runs off of this? I have seen video, and from what I understand it runs off only the normal battery used to start the car and the hydrogen remove from sea water. I am not an expert on this at all, but it definately interests me. By the way, where do you get the efficiences for an electrolysis reactor? Andrew On 12/28/06, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is this. The electrolyser is 70% efficient best case. The engine is 30% efficient best case - in use probably 8% So we have .7 x .3 = .21 conversion of electricity to rear wheel power best case. And what losses are associated with the electricity? they make the 21 % even lower and what powered the electricity? Websites like this are a cruel joke at best. If photovoltaics were free and ran an electrolyzer during the day to charge a hydride tank that you could refill from when you got home then a hydrogen vehicle would be viable. Better yet a fuel cell to escape the low efficiency of thermal processes. Fuel cells of 50% efficiency can be purchased now. Then a fuel cell electric car. Or 2 battery banks rotated daily - that may get you above 80% on storage/transport of power. Likewise 90% on electric motors can be achieved. Burning hydrogen in internal combustion is wasteful. Kirk Andrew Katerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
Because you could go a minimum of 4 times further down the road if you put the electricity into a NiMH battery bank and drove the vehicle with an electric motor. Kirk Jan Warnqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Doug, Andrew et al. Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to obtain the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual motion machine. You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient, which they are very far from being. Doug Woodard St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
Hydrogen does indeed have an excellent heat value for its weight/mass, but not for its volume, and it is a gas down close to absolute zero. Hydrogen storage is a considerable problem. To my mind it remains to be seen whether hydrogen will ever be economic for the sole fuel of a vehicle. I think that hydrogen from renewable sources distributed in pipes may well be very useful as a replacement for natural gas. As well as wind turbines, see http://www.shec-labs.com which uses a solar thermal catalytic methods of making hydrogen from water. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada Hello Doug, Andrew et al. Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to obtain the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
The problem is this. The electrolyser is 70% efficient best case. The engine is 30% efficient best case - in use probably 8% So we have .7 x .3 = .21 conversion of electricity to rear wheel power best case. And what losses are associated with the electricity? they make the 21 % even lower and what powered the electricity? Websites like this are a cruel joke at best. If photovoltaics were free and ran an electrolyzer during the day to charge a hydride tank that you could refill from when you got home then a hydrogen vehicle would be viable. Better yet a fuel cell to escape the low efficiency of thermal processes. Fuel cells of 50% efficiency can be purchased now. Then a fuel cell electric car. Or 2 battery banks rotated daily - that may get you above 80% on storage/transport of power. Likewise 90% on electric motors can be achieved. Burning hydrogen in internal combustion is wasteful. Kirk Andrew Katerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual motion machine. You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient, which they are very far from being. Doug Woodard St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle. http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it? Thanks, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Global Issues Water and Development by Anup Shah This Page Last Updated Friday, November 24, 2006 Much of the world lives without access to clean water. Privatization of water resources, promoted as a means to bring business efficiency into water service management, has instead led to reduced access for the poor around the world as prices for these essential services have risen. This article looks into this issue in further detail below. Table Of Contents For This Page This web page has the following sub-sections: Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading To Lack Of Access To Safe Water For Much Of The World Coca Cola Vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury Vs. Necessity Privatization In Both Rich And Poor Countries Can Mean Many Cannot Access Safe Water Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology Privatization Vs. Democratic Accountability Of Management Of A Fundamental Resource Water: A Human Right Or A Commodity? Water And Environmental Issues Climate Change And Water Security Future Wars Over Water? International Agreements And Action More Information Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading To Lack Of Access To Safe Water For Much Of The World Consider the following: The 2006 United Nations Human Development Report, focusing on water, notes the following: Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation. Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day. More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day. Access to piped water into the household averages about 85% for the wealthiest 20% of the population, compared with 25% for the poorest 20%. 1.8 billion people who have access to a water source within 1 kilometre, but not in their house or yard, consume around 20 litres per day. In the United Kingdom the average person uses more than 50 litres of water a day flushing toilets (where average daily water usage is about 150 liters a day. The highest average water use in the world is in the US, at 600 liters day.) Some 1.8 million child deaths each year as a result of diarrhoea The loss of 443 million school days each year from water-related illness. Close to half of all people in developing countries suffering at any given time from a health problem caused by water and sanitation deficits. Millions of women spending several hours a day collecting water. To these human costs can be added the massive economic waste associated with the water and sanitation deficit. The costs associated with health spending, productivity losses and labour diversions are greatest in some of the poorest countries. Sub-Saharan Africa loses about 5% of GDP, or some $28.4 billion annually, a figure that exceeds total aid flows and debt relief to the region in 2003.(See pages 6, 7, 35.) 400 million children (1 in 5 from the developing world) have no access to safe water. 1.4 million children will die each year from lack of access to safe drinking water and adequate sanitation (State of the World's Children, 2005, UNICEF) A mere 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. (Maude Barlow, Water as Commodity-The Wrong Prescription, The Institute for Food and Development Policy, Backgrounder, Summer 2001, Vol. 7, No. 3) Already, corporations own or operate water systems across the globe that bring in about $200 billion a year. Yet they serve only about 7 percent of the world's population, leaving a potentially vast market untapped. (John Tagliabue, As Multinationals Run the Taps, Anger Rises Over Water for Profit, New York Times, August 26, 2002) Already some one third of the world's population is living in either water-scarce, or water-short areas. It is predicted that climate change and population growth will take this number to one half of humanity. Yet, as Maude Barlow has commented, it is not necessarily over-population causing water shortages: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. The United Nations appears to concur: We reject this [Malthusian perspective that global water problems are a problem of scarcity and population growth]. The availability of water is a concern for some countries. But the scarcity at the heart of the global water crisis is rooted in power, poverty and inequality, not in physical availability. - 2006 United Nations Human Development Report, 2006, p.2 Indian scientist and activist, Vandana Shiva noted in a documentary that the water crisis is a human-created crisis only in the last two or so decades. In other words, it is not so much of a water
[Biofuel] Water
I now live in a place where rivers run year 'round and rainfall can last for days on end. However, I grew up in Los Angeles, where a history of stealing water from areas with sparse populations (and resultingly, little political clout) contributed significantly to the growth of a city that really has no business being so big. The discussions about climate change often mention water shortages in passing, but I don't hear a lot about water conservation among many people. In that light, I found this story very interesting: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6590362 Last night, I heard this one on the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6174689.stm This doesn't bode well for Africa, but the problem is global. I found an article on this topic by George Monibot this morning: http://environment.guardian.co.uk/water/story/0,,1891587,00.html Scary stuff! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water
Robert, Thanks for this! It is about time we focused some attention on an issue of crushing importance. I would like to offer the following quote: "There is a lot of oil in the desert, but not much water, which one would you offer a thirsty person?" Fred From: robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] WaterDate: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:32:05 -0800 I now live in a place where rivers run year 'round and rainfall can last for days on end. However, I grew up in Los Angeles, where a history of stealing water from areas with sparse populations (and resultingly, little political clout) contributed significantly to the growth of a city that really has no business being so big. The discussions about climate change often mention water shortages in passing, but I don't hear a lot about water conservation among many people. In that light, I found this story very interesting: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6590362Last night, I heard this one on the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6174689.stmThis doesn't bode well for Africa, but the problem is global. I found an article on this topic by George Monibot this morning: http://environment.guardian.co.uk/water/story/0,,1891587,00.htmlScary stuff!robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" "The Long Journey" New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water
Hi Robert Scary stuff, yes. Here's a couple of previous roundups on water problems. Don't know if the links still work: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste 4 Aug 2002 With a new top: http://snipurl.com/rcgo Re: [biofuel] Cross post - next generation solar generation 5 Sep 2004 (But IIRC Darryl didn't like Maude Barlow.) All best Keith I now live in a place where rivers run year 'round and rainfall can last for days on end. However, I grew up in Los Angeles, where a history of stealing water from areas with sparse populations (and resultingly, little political clout) contributed significantly to the growth of a city that really has no business being so big. The discussions about climate change often mention water shortages in passing, but I don't hear a lot about water conservation among many people. In that light, I found this story very interesting: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6590362 Last night, I heard this one on the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6174689.stm This doesn't bode well for Africa, but the problem is global. I found an article on this topic by George Monibot this morning: http://environment.guardian.co.uk/water/story/0,,1891587,00.html Scary stuff! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.cahttp://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water content - was tirating a virgin oil
Jan; Further to my post from yesterday regarding the 0.5% water in oil as a limit; I am assuming that this percentage relies on fairly anhydrous methoxide, and therefore is the maximum water that the process can tolerate. Is this a safe assumption? And if so would it be safe then to assume that if the oil is very dry the same absolute amount of water could be present in another source? I am asking because I am working on methanol recovery now. I can dry my oil quite well with vacuum and heat but recovered methanol always has significant water. If I assume methanol is added at 20% of oil volume then the same absolute volume of water present in the methanol can be 5 times higher i.e. 2.5% instread of 0.5% of oil volume? Is this correct? If so then I need only dry my methanol to 97.5% to get good results with very dry oil. I would appreciate your thoughts on this. I have purchased a hydrometer in the 0.790 to 0.900 range so that I can test the water content of recovered methanol. The hydrometer is calibrated for 15 degrees C which is cooler than room temperature. Also there is the problem that if I add 50 ml methanol and 50 ml water I don't get 100 ml of liquid! Rather than try to compensate the readings what I have decided to do is start with pure methanol and add small amounts of water and record the readings at room temperature to produce my own table based on percentages by volume. I will post these results so that others can benefit from it. My first test which was a mixture of methanol recovered from fuel mixed with methanol recovered from glycerin cocktail measured 0.813 at RT. That's a lot of water. Sigh. Stay tuned for more. Joe Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Emre, Rafal et al. I have to say that I partially disagree with some of your statements. The limit of FFA for a flawless trans-esterification is drawn at 5mg KOH/g of oil. Any value above will demand pre-treatment of the oil. It is always important to check the water content, which should be below 0,5%. Try to get hold of a water-in-oil test kit for quick determination. If we are talking about the EN standard, it is always necessary to process the oil/catalyst/methanol mix for 90 minutes to obtain the right values for tri- di- and monoglycerides. And - this assumes that you have correct stochiometric conditions and no methanol losses during processing. As for the phophatides and the chlorophyll compounds, my experience is that these are not very important for the processing result, unless the values of these are extremely high (thousands of ppms). If so, the oil is usually very dark. Totally refined oil, on the other hand, may have preservatives added, and some of these will eat catalyst. So, good oil quality is a tricky thing. Best of luck to you ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: "EMRE ELMAS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] tirating a virgin oil Dear Rafal, First of all, as long as you use cheap oil you should always be prepared to deal with much more FFA and water than it should normally contain. I think your emulsion problem occurs as a result of highly contained water. If that is the problem you should first dry the oil then process the reaction. Also if you use crude oil you should be very careful about the chemicals, such as lesitine, in the oil. So always try to use degummed oil, if you have to process crude oil. Another thing is, as you probably know, approximately 95 - 97 % of the reaction is completed in the first 35 minutes, so you do not have to wait for 2 hours. Also the alcohol boils at 65 C and the closer you get to that point, the more alcohol you will lose at the time you need it the most for the reaction. This prevents you to complete the reaction 100 %. As I mentioned above if you just watch the content of water and the other impurities in the oil you will be fine. Hopefully the information works for you. I am looking forward to hear from you soon. Best wishes, Emre ELMAS Mobile: +90 533 517 72 45 From: Rafal Szczesniak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] tirating a virgin oil Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:31:26 +0200 Hi, Recently I've came through problems with testing a cheap virgin oil in my test processor which every time ended up with incomplete reactions (emulsion problems). I did make the process longer (2 hours) and at higher temperature (60-63 degC) - still nothing, though by product separation is very nice. Today, I tried to titrate the oil and - to my surprise - it took 0.925ml of KOH solution. This was my first experience with titration, so I can also tell that the phenolophtalein solution turned pale (but noticable) magenta for about 15 secs (as described at JtF) after 0.925ml. After adding
Re: [Biofuel] Water content - was tirating a virgin oil
Hello Joe. If you are trying to recycle the surplus methanol you should be aware of this: MeOH + KOH MeO + K+ + H2O Methanol and potassium hydroxide will form water. That is your first water source. The second is the water content of the fresh methanol which should be below 0,5%. The third water source is the oil, max water content 0,5%. And if you add 1kg of KOH you can expect it form 0,322 kgs of water as it dissolves in the methanol. So for a batch of 1000 kgs, these are the actual water contents: Oil: 5 kgs Methanol : 1kg KOH (20kg): 6,45 kgs 12,45 kgs of water = 1,25% So now you can understand why itcan benecessary to dry the oil. To decrease the water content further I suggest that you purchase ready-made anhydrous catalyst, such as Potassium or Sodium Methoxide. In this case the surplus methanol will have a low water content and will be recyclable. For the water in methanol tests I can only say that this gravimetric method of yours is difficult. So far there is no simple quick and reliable method to do this. Best of luck to you ! Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB + 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water content - was tirating a virgin oil Jan;Further to my post from yesterday regarding the 0.5% water in oil as a limit; I am assuming that this percentage relies on fairly anhydrous methoxide, and therefore is the maximum water that the process can tolerate. Is this a safe assumption? And if so would it be safe then to assume that if the oil is very dry the same absolute amount of water could be present in another source? I am asking because I am working on methanol recovery now. I can dry my oil quite well with vacuum and heat but recovered methanol always has significant water. If I assume methanol is added at 20% of oil volume then the same absolute volume of water present in the methanol can be 5 times higher i.e. 2.5% instread of 0.5% of oil volume? Is this correct? If so then I need only dry my methanol to 97.5% to get good results with very dry oil. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.I have purchased a hydrometer in the 0.790 to 0.900 range so that I can test the water content of recovered methanol. The hydrometer is calibrated for 15 degrees C which is cooler than room temperature. Also there is the problem that if I add 50 ml methanol and 50 ml water I don't get 100 ml of liquid! Rather than try to compensate the readings what I have decided to do is start with pure methanol and add small amounts of water and record the readings at room temperature to produce my own table based on percentages by volume. I will post these results so that others can benefit from it. My first test which was a mixture of methanol recovered from fuel mixed with methanol recovered from glycerin cocktail measured 0.813 at RT. That's a lot of water. Sigh.Stay tuned for more.JoeJan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Emre, Rafal et al. I have to say that I partially disagree with some of your statements. The limit of FFA for a flawless trans-esterification is drawn at 5mg KOH/g of oil. Any value above will demand pre-treatment of the oil. It is always important to check the water content, which should be below 0,5%. Try to get hold of a water-in-oil test kit for quick determination. If we are talking about the EN standard, it is always necessary to process the oil/catalyst/methanol mix for 90 minutes to obtain the right values for tri- di- and monoglycerides. And - this assumes that you have correct stochiometric conditions and no methanol losses during processing. As for the phophatides and the chlorophyll compounds, my experience is that these are not very important for the processing result, unless the values of these are extremely high (thousands of ppms). If so, the oil is usually very dark. Totally refined oil, on the other hand, may have preservatives added, and some of these will eat catalyst. So, good oil quality is a tricky thing. Best of luck to you ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: "EMRE ELMAS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] tirating a virgin oil Dear Rafal, First of all, as long as you use cheap oil you should always be prepared to deal with much more FFA and water than it should normally contain. I think your emulsion problem occurs as a result of highly contained water. If that is the problem you should first dry the oil then process the reaction. Also if you use crude oil you should be very careful about the chemicals, such as lesitine, in the oil. So always try to use degummed oil, if you have to process crude oil. Another thing is, as you pro
Re: [Biofuel] Water content - was tirating a virgin oil
Joe, My experience with recovered methanol is that it alway contains some water. I dont have a hydrometer, but I see my methoxide turning milky white as it desolves. At first I worried about the water contant, but my batches showed no loss of quality with recoevered methanol. (Only 40% should be recovered the rest is fresh) My WVOvaries in quality a lot, because it is from different sources. I only dewater the oil when it is popping and bubbleing duringpreheating. when it has calm surface up to70 deg C. I just save the extratime and energy. Mostly I use the 2 stage base-base process, but I use 7 gr of NAOH because of the recovered methanol-water contant, and for an easy wash - quality fuel. My long term yield is 96% BD/WVO (last 30 batches) I always do a wash test and then stir wash the fuel 5 times with a drill and paint stirrer. This worked out very good for me and I always get perfect separations of the wash water. Glad to answer any questions, Andrew - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water content - was tirating a virgin oil Jan;Further to my post from yesterday regarding the 0.5% water in oil as a limit; I am assuming that this percentage relies on fairly anhydrous methoxide, and therefore is the maximum water that the process can tolerate. Is this a safe assumption? And if so would it be safe then to assume that if the oil is very dry the same absolute amount of water could be present in another source? I am asking because I am working on methanol recovery now. I can dry my oil quite well with vacuum and heat but recovered methanol always has significant water. If I assume methanol is added at 20% of oil volume then the same absolute volume of water present in the methanol can be 5 times higher i.e. 2.5% instread of 0.5% of oil volume? Is this correct? If so then I need only dry my methanol to 97.5% to get good results with very dry oil. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.I have purchased a hydrometer in the 0.790 to 0.900 range so that I can test the water content of recovered methanol. The hydrometer is calibrated for 15 degrees C which is cooler than room temperature. Also there is the problem that if I add 50 ml methanol and 50 ml water I don't get 100 ml of liquid! Rather than try to compensate the readings what I have decided to do is start with pure methanol and add small amounts of water and record the readings at room temperature to produce my own table based on percentages by volume. I will post these results so that others can benefit from it. My first test which was a mixture of methanol recovered from fuel mixed with methanol recovered from glycerin cocktail measured 0.813 at RT. That's a lot of water. Sigh.Stay tuned for more.JoeJan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Emre, Rafal et al. I have to say that I partially disagree with some of your statements. The limit of FFA for a flawless trans-esterification is drawn at 5mg KOH/g of oil. Any value above will demand pre-treatment of the oil. It is always important to check the water content, which should be below 0,5%. Try to get hold of a water-in-oil test kit for quick determination. If we are talking about the EN standard, it is always necessary to process the oil/catalyst/methanol mix for 90 minutes to obtain the right values for tri- di- and monoglycerides. And - this assumes that you have correct stochiometric conditions and no methanol losses during processing. As for the phophatides and the chlorophyll compounds, my experience is that these are not very important for the processing result, unless the values of these are extremely high (thousands of ppms). If so, the oil is usually very dark. Totally refined oil, on the other hand, may have preservatives added, and some of these will eat catalyst. So, good oil quality is a tricky thing. Best of luck to you ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: "EMRE ELMAS" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] tirating a virgin oil Dear Rafal, First of all, as long as you use cheap oil you should always be prepared to deal with much more FFA and water than it should normally contain. I think your emulsion problem occurs as a result of highly contained water. If that is the problem you should first dry the oil then process the reaction. Also if you use crude oil you should be very careful about the chemicals, such as lesitine, in the oil. So always try to use degummed oil, if you have to process crude oil. Another thing is, as you probably know, approximately 95 - 97 % of the reaction is completed in the first 35 minutes,
Re: [Biofuel] water-fuel system
Hello,I always thought it would be really cool to power an internal combustion engine with hydrogen derived from electrolysis powered by the engine itself, but doesn't it take more energy to split the hydrogen/oxygen that the hydrogen is able to produce when combusted? I guess that's why this particular device requires 20% gasoline fuel. Could that 20% be obtained from solar energy and just pumped into the electrolysis to produce enough hydrogen to run the engine? Also, what if the engine was run on a mix of hydrogen and oxygen? Would that be more powerful? Will KelleherOn 6/25/06, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.rexresearch.com/teves/teves.htm Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] water-fuel system
Will Kelleher wrote: Hello, I always thought it would be really cool to power an internal combustion engine with hydrogen derived from electrolysis powered by the engine itself, but doesn't it take more energy to split the hydrogen/oxygen that the hydrogen is able to produce when combusted? I guess that's why this particular device requires 20% gasoline fuel. Could that 20% be obtained from solar energy and just pumped into the electrolysis to produce enough hydrogen to run the engine? Also, what if the engine was run on a mix of hydrogen and oxygen? Would that be more powerful? Will Kelleher The system described is known as hy-boost. In essence, the fast-burning hydrogen acts like a catalyst that speeds the combustion of air / fuel and produces full expansion earlier in the power stroke. It also serves to burn the fuel completely, so there are fewer combustion by-products that need to be handled in the catalytic converter. This technique can be used to burn fuels that are less highly refined than modern gasoline. Further, because hydrogen has such wide flammability limits, the engine can run VERY lean without the danger of burned valves and pistons. It's an interesting technique, really, and one of the few practical uses for hydrogen in a transportation application that I can think of. I'd like to try it in my truck when I get my Megasquirt computer up and running. As far as the self-powering engine is concerned, you're right--it isn't going to happen. Most of the best commercial electrolyzers operate somewhere in the 50 - 70 % efficiency range, unless you include process heat (which they often do) to bolster efficiency figures. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] water-fuel system
http://www.rexresearch.com/teves/teves.htm Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
Interesting confleunce of failure of foreign aid and water as a human right. One of the important facts left out of the information on water and Bolivia is that the IMF put stings on a loan to Bolivia to improve water infrastructure which was sadly in need of repair. The IMF required that Bolivia privatize the ownership of their water distribution system before it would lend them any money. Bechtel Corp. got the contract and immediately increased the price of water by 60% and later doubling and tripling the price of water. Peasants who couldn't afford the price started collecting rainwater and were sued by Bechtel who claimed that even the rainwater had to be paid for. As a result the peasants protested and Bechtel was thrown out. The water problem led to the election of leftest Morales. Interesting how money from the IMF that had strings to supposedly promote ownership by large corporations had the opposite effect. Ken --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for Much of the World * Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity * Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot access safe water * Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology * Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a Fundamental Resource * Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? * Water and Environmental Issues * International Agreements and Action * More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
Hi Ken Interesting confleunce of failure of foreign aid and water as a human right. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. One of the important facts left out of the information on water and Bolivia is that the IMF put stings on a loan to Bolivia to improve water infrastructure which was sadly in need of repair. The IMF required that Bolivia privatize the ownership of their water distribution system before it would lend them any money. Bechtel Corp. got the contract and immediately increased the price of water by 60% and later doubling and tripling the price of water. Peasants who couldn't afford the price started collecting rainwater and were sued by Bechtel who claimed that even the rainwater had to be paid for. As a result the peasants protested and Bechtel was thrown out. The water problem led to the election of leftest Morales. Interesting how money from the IMF that had strings to supposedly promote ownership by large corporations had the opposite effect. Yes. Didn't Anup Shah cover that? I thought he does. It was in the link I added in the original post: For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste One article mentioned: Bolivia's War Over Water reports from the scene by Jim Shultz, executive director, The Democracy Center -- In April 2000 Bolivia grabbed the world's attention when the city of Cochabamba erupted in a public uprising over water prices. In 1999, following World Bank advice, Bolivia had granted a 40-year privatization lease to a subsidiary of the Bechtel Corporation, giving it control over the water on which more than half a million people survive. Immediately the company doubled and tripled water rates for some of South America's poorest families. The entire city went on a general strike. The military killed a seventeen-year-old boy and arrested the water rights leaders. But after four months of unrest the Bolivian government forced Bechtel out of Cochambamba. http://www.democracyctr.org/onlinenews/water.html New link: http://www.democracyctr.org/waterwar/ Bolivia's War Over Water There are 13 articles in the list archives on Bolivia and Bechtel, and quite a few more on Morales. This was the most recent on Bechtel: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg59686.html [Biofuel] Bolivia: Bechtel surrenders 25 Jan 2006 Best Keith Ken --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for Much of the World * Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity * Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot access safe water * Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology * Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a Fundamental Resource * Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? * Water and Environmental Issues * International Agreements and Action * More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
WATER FIGHT: BOLIVIA vs. BECHTEL Last week brought an end to one of the greatest water battles in history. The people of Bolivia have successfully reclaimed ownership of their water from the Bechtel Corporation. In 1999, Bechtel made an arrangement with the Bolivian government to take ownership of the water supply and charge citizens for its use. Within weeks of the takeover, Bechtel raised water rates by 50% and made it illegal to gather rainwater without a permit. The ensuing citizen revolt forced Bechtel out of the country. Bechtel then sued Bolivia for $50 million for profit losses. But last week, after four years of legal disputes and public pressure, the case was dropped. This is the first time that a major corporation like Bechtel has had to back down from a major trade case as the result of global citizen pressure, said Jim Shultz, executive director of The Democracy Center in Cochabamba, Bolivia. Bechtel's surrender coincides with the election of indigenous populist farm leader, Evo Morales, who has long been a sharp critic of Bechtel and other transnational corporations operating in Bolivia. [link] http://www.organicconsumers.org/Politics/bechtel012006.cfm Keith Addison wrote: Hi Ken Interesting confleunce of failure of foreign aid and water as a human right. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. One of the important facts left out of the information on water and Bolivia is that the IMF put stings on a loan to Bolivia to improve water infrastructure which was sadly in need of repair. The IMF required that Bolivia privatize the ownership of their water distribution system before it would lend them any money. Bechtel Corp. got the contract and immediately increased the price of water by 60% and later doubling and tripling the price of water. Peasants who couldn't afford the price started collecting rainwater and were sued by Bechtel who claimed that even the rainwater had to be paid for. As a result the peasants protested and Bechtel was thrown out. The water problem led to the election of leftest Morales. Interesting how money from the IMF that had strings to supposedly promote ownership by large corporations had the opposite effect. Yes. Didn't Anup Shah cover that? I thought he does. It was in the link I added in the original post: For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste One article mentioned: Bolivia's War Over Water reports from the scene by Jim Shultz, executive director, The Democracy Center -- In April 2000 Bolivia grabbed the world's attention when the city of Cochabamba erupted in a public uprising over water prices. In 1999, following World Bank advice, Bolivia had granted a 40-year privatization lease to a subsidiary of the Bechtel Corporation, giving it control over the water on which more than half a million people survive. Immediately the company doubled and tripled water rates for some of South America's poorest families. The entire city went on a general strike. The military killed a seventeen-year-old boy and arrested the water rights leaders. But after four months of unrest the Bolivian government forced Bechtel out of Cochambamba. http://www.democracyctr.org/onlinenews/water.html New link: http://www.democracyctr.org/waterwar/ Bolivia's War Over Water There are 13 articles in the list archives on Bolivia and Bechtel, and quite a few more on Morales. This was the most recent on Bechtel: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg59686.html [Biofuel] Bolivia: Bechtel surrenders 25 Jan 2006 Best Keith Ken --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
Soon enough, with some more CO2 emissions etc, there will be water enough for all, and then some... in the right form, but we may not like having our beachfront homes under water... - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right? There's plenty of water. It's just not in the right place and in the right form... Darryl McMahon wrote: Additional reading (just pulled from my bookshelf). Best overview of the subject to date IMO. _Whose Water Is It? The Unquenchable Thirst of a Water-Hungry World_ Bernadette McDonald and Douglas Jehl, Editors ISBN# 0-7922-6238-7 Maude Barlow's piece in this book says: 'Both the World Bank and the United Nations state that water is a human need not a human right.' Also excellent IMO (winner of Canadian Governor General's Award). _Water_ Marq de Villiers ISBN#0-7737-6174-8 Solid coverage of the Walkerton Ontario scandal - public ownership gone bad. _Well of Lies - The Walkerton Water Tragedy_ Colin N. Perkel ISBN# 0-7710-7019-5 Quirky, but presents some very interesting history that makes good context for other reading. _Water Wars - Drought, Flood, Folly, and the Politics of Thirst_ Diane Raines Ward ISBN# 1-57322-995-4 Strident, primary focus on privatization of water supplies. _Blue Gold_ Maude Barlow and Tony Clarke ISBN# 0-7710-1086-9 Darryl Keith Addison wrote: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for Much of the World * Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity * Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot access safe water * Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology * Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a Fundamental Resource * Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? * Water and Environmental Issues * International Agreements and Action * More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
Next they'll be charging us for air... Keith Addison wrote: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for Much of the World * Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity * Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot access safe water * Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology * Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a Fundamental Resource * Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? * Water and Environmental Issues * International Agreements and Action * More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
Next they'll be charging us for air... You'll probably have to pay royalties on what you breathe it with, don't they own the patent on noses too? Oh, sorry, that's next week... Multi-national corporations are busy privatizing public water utilities across the U.S. They now control 15% of our water. With concerns over price gouging and poor service, communities in Illinois and elsewhere are starting to fight back. From: Chicago Tribune, May 28, 2006 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_unprivatizing_water.060530.htm>PRESSURE TURNED UP IN THE WAR ON WATER Towns push to make service public again http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_unprivatizing_water.060530.htm >From a previous message: >For instance, in 2000 Bill Gates went through 4.7 million gallons of water - nearly 60 times the consumption of a typical US homeowner. His water bill was $24,828. Cheap, eh? So that puts US average annual household consumption at 78,000 gallons. 35 tons. Nearly three tons a month. How much of that goes down the toilet? Still, it's a drop in a bucket compared with Gates's overuse, and it's not hopeless, it can be fixed - as with energy, as we keep agreeing, energy use reductions and much greater efficiencies will make a big difference. But will that extend to the top 1%, and to the very top levels of that top 1%? Because that's exactly where you'll find these obscenely massive footprints that are trampling everything else to death. There's room for us here, plenty of it, and for nature, and enough food for us all, enough everything for us all, and not just for the moment but for forever. But there's no room for the super-greedy. Whether individuals or corporations, they're black holes. These averaging data like footprinting fudge that, but it can't be over-emphasized. Best Keith Keith Addison wrote: >12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, >and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. > >Same as energy, same as food, same as money. > >Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. > >For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: >http://snipurl.com/qcpd >Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste > >Best > >Keith > > >--- > >New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. >http://www.globalissues.org > >* Trade-Related Issues >* Sustainable Development >* Water > >Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized >global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity >and over-population but from management of this precious resource. >Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient >management and provision of service. However, the result has been >that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people >around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of >safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more >detail. > >http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ > >Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to >Safe Water for Much of the World >* Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity >* Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot >access safe water >* Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology >* Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a >Fundamental Resource >* Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? >* Water and Environmental Issues >* International Agreements and Action >* More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
isnt the basis of life (food,water,oxygen) considered a right? i mean there is a right to survive, isnt there? - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right? Next they'll be charging us for air... Keith Addison wrote: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for Much of the World * Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity * Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot access safe water * Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology * Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a Fundamental Resource * Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? * Water and Environmental Issues * International Agreements and Action * More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/355 - Release Date: 6/2/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/355 - Release Date: 6/2/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
Additional reading (just pulled from my bookshelf). Best overview of the subject to date IMO. _Whose Water Is It? The Unquenchable Thirst of a Water-Hungry World_ Bernadette McDonald and Douglas Jehl, Editors ISBN# 0-7922-6238-7 Maude Barlow's piece in this book says: 'Both the World Bank and the United Nations state that water is a human need not a human right.' Also excellent IMO (winner of Canadian Governor General's Award). _Water_ Marq de Villiers ISBN#0-7737-6174-8 Solid coverage of the Walkerton Ontario scandal - public ownership gone bad. _Well of Lies - The Walkerton Water Tragedy_ Colin N. Perkel ISBN# 0-7710-7019-5 Quirky, but presents some very interesting history that makes good context for other reading. _Water Wars - Drought, Flood, Folly, and the Politics of Thirst_ Diane Raines Ward ISBN# 1-57322-995-4 Strident, primary focus on privatization of water supplies. _Blue Gold_ Maude Barlow and Tony Clarke ISBN# 0-7710-1086-9 Darryl Keith Addison wrote: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for Much of the World * Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity * Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot access safe water * Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology * Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a Fundamental Resource * Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? * Water and Environmental Issues * International Agreements and Action * More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
There's plenty of water. It's just not in the right place and in the right form... Darryl McMahon wrote: Additional reading (just pulled from my bookshelf). Best overview of the subject to date IMO. _Whose Water Is It? The Unquenchable Thirst of a Water-Hungry World_ Bernadette McDonald and Douglas Jehl, Editors ISBN# 0-7922-6238-7 Maude Barlow's piece in this book says: 'Both the World Bank and the United Nations state that water is a human need not a human right.' Also excellent IMO (winner of Canadian Governor General's Award). _Water_ Marq de Villiers ISBN#0-7737-6174-8 Solid coverage of the Walkerton Ontario scandal - public ownership gone bad. _Well of Lies - The Walkerton Water Tragedy_ Colin N. Perkel ISBN# 0-7710-7019-5 Quirky, but presents some very interesting history that makes good context for other reading. _Water Wars - Drought, Flood, Folly, and the Politics of Thirst_ Diane Raines Ward ISBN# 1-57322-995-4 Strident, primary focus on privatization of water supplies. _Blue Gold_ Maude Barlow and Tony Clarke ISBN# 0-7710-1086-9 Darryl Keith Addison wrote: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for Much of the World * Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity * Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot access safe water * Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology * Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a Fundamental Resource * Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? * Water and Environmental Issues * International Agreements and Action * More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
I read some one commentated on the order of; that there is enough water, nut not in the right places. I'm not so sure if there's enough water or not, I do agree location is key, along with who controls that location. What is right and what are rights is ambiguous. In the end it's the opinion of the most powerful majority that decides what's right, I don't see that changing anytime soon. :( Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA Jason Katie wrote: isnt the basis of life (food,water,oxygen) considered a right? i mean there is a right to survive, isnt there? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
That would be the last gasp regards Doug On Monday 05 June 2006 11:08, Mike Weaver wrote: Next they'll be charging us for air... Keith Addison wrote: 12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for Much of the World * Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity * Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot access safe water * Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology * Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a Fundamental Resource * Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? * Water and Environmental Issues * International Agreements and Action * More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water: a commodity or a fundamental human right?
12 percent of the world's population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World. Same as energy, same as food, same as money. Actually there is only one problem, IMHO, and this is it. For a glimpse at water issues worldwide in 2002 see: http://snipurl.com/qcpd Re: [biofuel] Sewage Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste Best Keith --- New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * Water Much of the world lives without access to clean water. A recognized global water crisis appears to come not so much from water scarcity and over-population but from management of this precious resource. Privatization has long been encouraged as the means to efficient management and provision of service. However, the result has been that often prices have increased, out of reach from poor people around the world. This commoditization of water goes to the heart of safe water access issues. This article looks into this issue in more detail. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/water/ Introduction-A Water Management Crisis Leading to Lack of Access to Safe Water for Much of the World * Coca Cola vs. Indian Farmers: Luxury vs. Necessity * Privatization in both rich and poor countries can mean many cannot access safe water * Water Access Policy: Following Neoliberal Ideology * Privatization vs. Democratic Accountability of Management of a Fundamental Resource * Water: A Human Right or a Commodity? * Water and Environmental Issues * International Agreements and Action * More Information ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Hello Michael Other than water in the WVO and Methanol there are at least two other sources: 1. Atmospheric water vapor tries to establish equilibrium with everything (including all feedstock and reagents used in the BD process). 2. The catalyst widely used in homebrew, dissolved lye in methyl alcohol, has an equilibrium reaction to/from Sodium Methylate and water. NaOH + CH3OH = NaOCH3 + H2O Most people making quality biodiesel use KOH, not NaOH. Sodium Methylate is the catalyst used in an acid/base industrial process for which my employer is constructing the plant. The customer's engineer is specifically using this, rather than lye in alcohol, due to that water molecule seen above and the general lower yield associated. Quite a lot of previous discussion about Sodium Methylate. http://snipurl.com/q3yy Search results for 'methylate' I don't think it has any particular advantage, it's more expensive and less available, and the amount of water involved is insignificant. I say that on the strength of the fact that methoxide mixed with methanol and NaOH or especially KOH produces high quality biodiesel from WVO, for one example of very many see: http://snipurl.com/pie8 [Biofuel] Biodiesel test results 11 Apr 2006 It's not true that there is a general lower yield associated with methoxide, our yield is 100%. Water is not such an enemy as your engineer assumes. The process will tolerate a certain amount of water without any loss, especially if everything else is done well. We've been discussing that here sporadically for a while. Obviously it makes sense to use dry chemicals and to remove water from WVO, we don't tell newbies water doesn't matter because it does matter, but the engineer's taking it a bit too literally. I think it's going to cost your customer some money. http://www.dupont.com/sodium/naome.html describes it. http://www.inorganics.basf.com/p02/CAPortal/en_GB/portal/Biodiesel_la yout_b/content/Produktgruppen/Biodiesel/Biodiesel/Katalysatoren (this is BASF) has more info on industrial biodiesel catalysts. May I recommend SnipURL: http://snipurl.com/index.php SnipURL - Snippetty snip snip with your long URLs! Then your urls won't break in two in transmission. Best Keith Michael -Original Message- From: Jonathan Schearer I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from? Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return and recycling of distillate product from the condenser back down the fractionating column which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying the methanol. This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packed fractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed with small glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanol production, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works for ethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope. Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop. Michael Gian Mike McGinness bob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Other than water in the WVO and Methanol there are at least two other sources: Atmospheric water vapor tries to establish equilibrium with everything (including all feedstock and reagents used in the BD process). The catalyst widely used in homebrew, dissolved lye in methyl alcohol, has an equilibrium reaction to/from Sodium Methylate and water. NaOH + CH3OH = NaOCH3 + H2O Sodium Methylate is the catalyst used in an acid/base industrial process for which my employer is constructing the plant. The customers engineer is specifically using this, rather than lye in alcohol, due to that water molecule seen above and the general lower yield associated. http://www.dupont.com/sodium/naome.html describes it. http://www.inorganics.basf.com/p02/CAPortal/en_GB/portal/Biodiesel_layout_b/content/Produktgruppen/Biodiesel/Biodiesel/Katalysatoren (this is BASF) has more info on industrial biodiesel catalysts. Michael -Original Message- From: Jonathan Schearer I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from? Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return and recycling of distillate product from the condenser back down the fractionating column which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying the methanol. This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packed fractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed with small glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanol production, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works for ethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope. Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop. Michael Gian Mike McGinness bob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from?Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return andrecycling of distillate product from the condenser back down thefractionatingcolumn which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying themethanol.This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packedfractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed withsmall glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanolproduction, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works forethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope.Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop.Michael GianMike McGinnessbob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite "molecular sieves" in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
You probably don't get all of the water out of the oil because when it mixes with the oil the boiling point is raised. It would probably take 230-240F with a vacuum to pull the water 100% out. Without the vacuum the water vapor will still condense slightely on the walls of your heating pot. During the reaction you also create water. The combination of these is still very small. It might be 1% water to recovered methanol for every batch, but the water is not being used in processingso the second batch will have 2% and it will add up. Logan Vilas From: Jonathan Schearer To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from?Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return andrecycling of distillate product from the condenser back down thefractionatingcolumn which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying themethanol.This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packedfractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed withsmall glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanolproduction, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works forethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope.Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop.Michael GianMike McGinnessbob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
The reaction produces some water Jonathan Schearer wrote: I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from? Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return and recycling of distillate product from the condenser back down the fractionating column which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying the methanol. This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packed fractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed with small glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanol production, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works for ethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope. Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop. Michael Gian Mike McGinness bob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite "molecular sieves" in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Logan Vilaswrote: "During the reaction you also create water." I think thatwater wouldform during the reaction that produces Potassium (or Sodium) Methoxide: CH3OH + KOH --- CH3OK + H2O or CH3OH+ NaOH ---CH3ONa + H2O Water might also be produced as FFAs are converted to soaps as the K+/Na+ replaces an H on the FFA and OH releases from KOH (or NaOH) --- H2O. I would expect water to be formed when the phosphoric acid neutralizes the KOH (or NaOH) during the splitting of the glycerine co-product prior to methanol recovery. (Acid + Base --- mineral salt + water). The oil I used for the batches that I recovered the methanol from was very good/dry. I preheated to remove what water was there, but as Logan pointed out, some water is inevitable. Remember that I was recovering methanol from crude glycerine split from the co-product formed from about 1200 L of processed oil; 13 - 14 91L batches. I should have known that water would come over when temp rose to 180F and above. I was simply too greedy. Tom - Original Message - From: logan vilas To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? You probably don't get all of the water out of the oil because when it mixes with the oil the boiling point is raised. It would probably take 230-240F with a vacuum to pull the water 100% out. Without the vacuum the water vapor will still condense slightely on the walls of your heating pot. During the reaction you also create water. The combination of these is still very small. It might be 1% water to recovered methanol for every batch, but the water is not being used in processingso the second batch will have 2% and it will add up. Logan Vilas From: Jonathan Schearer To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from?Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return andrecycling of distillate product from the condenser back down thefractionatingcolumn which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying themethanol.This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packedfractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed withsmall glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanolproduction, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works forethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope.Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop.Michael GianMike McGinnessbob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerin
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
If using the Acid process you will generate some water. Also remember the oil is dry but there are trace amounts of water in the best grease but I dont think this causes a problem. JIM Jonathan Schearer wrote: I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from? */Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return and recycling of distillate product from the condenser back down the fractionating column which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying the methanol. This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packed fractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed with small glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanol production, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works for ethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope. Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop. Michael Gian Mike McGinness bob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite molecular sieves in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing
Re: [Biofuel] Water from Acid process
Hello Sty Dear Sir, I have a question tobe solved by the experts in this forum. Everybody is still learning. In biodiesel production with acid-base process, is it a limitation of FFA content without water separation (produced by esterification stage) before entering the base-process (trans-esterification). Some people say so, others say not so. I say not so, but it depends how you do it. The acid-base process is very flexible and there are lots of ways of adjusting it. High-quality biodiesel can be produced both ways. If I use feed-stock with 5 - 10% FFA content without water separation, what would be happen in the tran-esterification. Will it reduce the conversion or product quality? Same answer as above. There's the same kind of situation with whether you need to titrate the fuel after acid esterification to determine how much base is required for transesterification. Some say yes, others say no. Other people say it requires more than a simple titration. But high-quality biodiesel can be produced both ways. Start off with what's simplest, which is the original method Aleks Kac describes: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html Foolproof biodiesel process: Journey to Forever This works well just as it is for most people most of the time. If it doesn't work well for you, then do controlled tests with small test batches, changing the variables one at a time, with wash tests and the other quality checks to test the results, you can include water separation or not, and perhaps titration or not. Here are some other ways of doing it: http://snipurl.com/pxp3 Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs Read the whole message. There's a lot more about this in the list archives. Already we have at least four ways, Aleks's original, Todd's method, Bob's method, I use a different way, and if you check out Michael Allen's work with high FFA oils in the archives (crude palm oil) that's a fifth way. There are several more ways people have told me about. All different, all have high-quality results. Some people talk a lot of nonsense about the acid-base method. Some of them get very dogmatic about it and angrily insist that it has to be titrated or whatever, their way is the only way and so on. But if you scratch them a little you find they don't actually use the acid-base method themselves for one reason or another. In other words they're talking through their hats. Don't believe everything you hear. Keep going and I'm sure you'll find a good way of using the acid-base method that suits you and produces good results. Then, if you like, you can share it with the rest of us. Hope this helps. Best Keith Best regards Sty Indonesia ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water from Acid process
Dear Sir, I have a question tobe solved by the experts in this forum. In biodiesel production with acid-base process, is it a limitation of FFA content without water separation (produced by esterification stage) before entering the base-process (trans-esterification). If I use feed-stock with 5 10% FFA content without water separation, what would be happen in the tran-esterification. Will it reduce the conversion or product quality? Best regards Sty Indonesia ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return and recycling of distillate product from the condenser back down the fractionating column which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying the methanol. This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packed fractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed with small glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanol production, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works for ethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope. Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop. Michael Gian Mike McGinness bob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite molecular sieves in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Todd, You wrote: You can build a well insulated, e-glass, almost-walk-in, oven for $200. The key word here is You, as in me. I started, a year or so ago on this project as a mechanical moron, and have elevated myself through hard work, perseverance, and the patience and encouragement of some wonderful people, including members of this list to the level of merely incompetent. Can I find plans for such an oven somewhere? Help would be appreciated, but a simple figure it out yourself might be taken as a compliment. Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? You can build a well insulated, e-glass, almost-walk-in, oven for $200. I wouldn't buy one. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Thanks Todd. It must have been 25 years ago that a friend was going to prepare lunch in a solar oven. The idea appealed to me at the time, but on a warm sunny day we watched and waited, and ended up having to fire up the grill. Solar ovens have apparently come a long way since then or you wouldn't be recommending them for regenerating zeolytes. I just Googled Solar Oven. Something about solar cooking still appeals to me, but I remain skeptical. In one part of a web page it says they quickly heat up to 360 -400F. In another part of the same site it says Superior Cooking is due to the slow even rise in temp. It's that slow rise in temp that concerns me. Are you referring to the same solar ovens (under $200 US) that can be used to cook food (and do they really work?) or is there some other, high tech version? Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. The temp needed can be achieved in a solar oven. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Thanks for the reply. You wrote: 1. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. I don't know what this will tell me. What would I be looking for in terms of vapor temp? 3. I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. I would appreciate them. I am in the early stages of planning ethanol ferment/distillation. If the permit is approved, I hope to start in the coming months. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, April 28, 2006 10:27 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady
[Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite "molecular sieves" in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite "molecular sieves" in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? Yes, and you probably did. This is why they use distillation columns in industry. Zeolytes should work. Just make sure that whatever one you choose is capable of absorbing water. Not all zeolytes are designed for the same capability. While porosity may be the wrong word to define how they're constructed, zeolytes are engineered to absorb specific sized molecules. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite molecular sieves in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.4/319 - Release Date: 4/19/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Joe, Thanks for the reply. You wrote: 1. "There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum." I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. "Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time." I don't knowwhat this will tell me.What wouldI be looking for in terms of vapor temp? 3. "I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them." I would appreciate them. I am in the early stages of planning ethanol ferment/distillation. If the permit is approved, I hope to start in the coming months. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :)I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them.JoeThomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite "molecular sieves" in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite molecular sieves in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Hello guys, I had similar issues with recovered methanol. when it is wet you will have milyky white methoxide when you add the NaOH. My solution is that I use recovered methanol only 30% the rest is always fresh. and stop the destillation just below 100 deg C. this way I've been having good results with the wash test. regards, Andrew - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :)I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them.JoeThomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite "molecular sieves" in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Hi Tom;
Sieves are porous ceramic which microscopically look like a sponge.
The pore size depends on manufacture and will allow molecules smaller
than the pore size to go into the labrynth of passageways withing the
bulk of the material. Larger molecules are excluded. Refer to
manufacturers data for details but IIRC the numeric part number refers
to the pore size in angstrom units.
http://catalog.adcoa.net/item/activated-alumina/type-3a/ms3a001?plpver=10origin=keywordby=prodassetid=specfilter=0
I do remember making a mental note that 3A was the one I wanted and
don't get the powder, get the beads which work better for this
application. The reasons are complicated and I won't get into them
here but it is explained or actually hypothesised why in the paper.
When it comes to regenerating, the porous maze works against us.
Molecules of water which wander into the maze have nothing but thermal
kinetic energy to determine thier fate and they get lost in the maze.
Some find thier way out but until the material is saturated more go in
due to diffusion laws and statistical rules until an equilibrium is
reached where as many go in as out. Raising temperature gives the
molecules more energy to bounce around and find an exit and a hot dry
low pressure environment reverses the balance point to where molecules
try to get out but it takes time, and energy helps. I have a hunch that
a microwave oven may do wonders but I havent tried it and as the sieves
approach dry the magnetron will have almost nothing as a load which may
overheat and destroy it so try it with a junker oven if you can.
Eventually a new equilibrium is reached where the zeolite has little
water content and you can reuse it. BTW you would be stunned to learn
just how much surface area these nanoporous media have. For example a
chunk of charcoal made from the husk of a coconut which is just one
cubic centimeter in volume has a surface area about the same as a
football field!! Yes that's not a typo.
About the thermometer, it allows you to see the vapour temperature
which tells you something about the composition of the vapour. Water
and methanol do not form an azeotrope and as distillation proceeds the
temperature will gradually rise (I think when there is an azeotrope
like water -ethanol it lingers at the lower boiling point and then
rises non linearly unless I've got it backwards - I am an electrical
type not a chemist) anyways what I do is throttle my vacuum pump to a
fixed pumping speed and watch both the pressure and temperature. When
the vapour temperature begins to rise and the vacuum starts to improve
I take it that there is less methanol and more water coming out. I
stop at that point. I want to get a hydrometer to check the SG of the
liquid that comes out in the trap which will be a first rough test to
see the water content. It will be a trial and error method to find
where the best compromise is between distilling longer and using more
sieves and I need to take energy input into both aspects of this to
determine the sensible endpoint. Ahhh so much to do..it could be a
full time job..
Let me see about digging out the paper. You may be able to find it. I
cant remember the guy's name but I think he was Malaysian and he used
tritiated water as a radioactive tracer in various solvents to measure
the efficacy of the sieves in drying. Effective if not alarming
Joe
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Joe,
Thanks for the reply.
You wrote:
1. "There is a significant energy input into regenerating the
seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more
like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with
vacuum."
I came across molecular sieves
while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe
(mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun.
"Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour
temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time."
I don't knowwhat this will tell
me.What wouldI be looking for in terms of vapor temp?
3. "I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail
you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them."
I would appreciate them. I am in the early stages of planning ethanol
ferment/distillation. If the permit is approved, I hope to start in the
coming months.
Thanks again,
Tom
- Original Message -
From:
Joe Street
To:
biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent:
Friday, April 28, 2006 10:27 AM
Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of
water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will
work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second
stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the
seives as well. You have to bake them at well ov
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. The temp needed can be achieved in a solar oven. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Thanks for the reply. You wrote: 1. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. I don't know what this will tell me. What would I be looking for in terms of vapor temp? 3. I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. I would appreciate them. I am in the early stages of planning ethanol ferment/distillation. If the permit is approved, I hope to start in the coming months. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, April 28, 2006 10:27 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite molecular sieves in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Joe, Thanks for the time you put into your response. Re: Zeolites. I should probably buy some and experiment.I have a note to but 3A molecular sieve. I'll check to make sure that's the right one. As I understand it, with pressure constant, a liquid at boiling point does not increase in temp. as energy is added. The energy (latent heat of vaporization) goes into producing the phase change. My impression was that the temp increase stalled at 150F even though I had the heater on. It rose very slowly to 160F, but at this point I turned the heater off and let the methanol flow. I gave it a bit of heat every now and then, but the temp stayedbetween 155 - 170F. This went on for hours and by then I had collected more than 4.5 gal (17.7L) of methanol. It got late, I got tired and decided to just crank it up ... leave the heater on. Above 160F the temp seemed to rise more quickly. Maybe much of the methanol had been removed --- less energy being used to evap methanol, more to heating remaining mix I'm not through with this yet. In fact I have plenty more glycerine/methanol to try. You wrote: "Let me see about digging out the paper. You may be able to find it. I cant remember the guy's name but I think he was Malaysian and he used tritiated water as a radioactive tracer in various solvents to measure the efficacy of the sieves in drying. Effective if not alarming" Is this the idea? Knowing the conc. of radioactive water in the ethanol/water mix, the amount of radioactive water remaining in the ethanol after treating w. the zeolite would allow calc. of the amount of water removed. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? Hi Tom;Sieves are porous ceramic which microscopically look like a sponge. The pore size depends on manufacture and will allow molecules smaller than the pore size to go into the labrynth of passageways withing the bulk of the material. Larger molecules are excluded. Refer to manufacturers data for details but IIRC the numeric part number refers to the pore size in angstrom units. http://catalog.adcoa.net/item/activated-alumina/type-3a/ms3a001?plpver=10origin=keywordby=prodassetid=specfilter=0I do remember making a mental note that 3A was the one I wanted and don't get the powder, get the beads which work better for this application. The reasons are complicated and I won't get into them here but it is explained or actually hypothesised why in the paper. When it comes to regenerating, the porous maze works against us. Molecules of water which wander into the maze have nothing but thermal kinetic energy to determine thier fate and they get lost in the maze. Some find thier way out but until the material is saturated more go in due to diffusion laws and statistical rules until an equilibrium is reached where as many go in as out. Raising temperature gives the molecules more energy to bounce around and find an exit and a hot dry low pressure environment reverses the balance point to where molecules try to get out but it takes time, and energy helps. I have a hunch that a microwave oven may do wonders but I havent tried it and as the sieves approach dry the magnetron will have almost nothing as a load which may overheat and destroy it so try it with a junker oven if you can. Eventually a new equilibrium is reached where the zeolite has little water content and you can reuse it. BTW you would be stunned to learn just how much surface area these nanoporous media have. For example a chunk of charcoal made from the husk of a coconut which is just one cubic centimeter in volume has a surface area about the same as a football field!! Yes that's not a typo. About the thermometer, it allows you to see the vapour temperature which tells you something about the composition of the vapour. Water and methanol do not form an azeotrope and as distillation proceeds the temperature will gradually rise (I think when there is an azeotrope like water -ethanol it lingers at the lower boiling point and then rises non linearly unless I've got it backwards - I am an electrical type not a chemist) anyways what I do is throttle my vacuum pump to a fixed pumping speed and watch both the pressure and temperature. When the vapour temperature begins to rise and the vacuum starts to improve I take it that there is less methanol and more water coming out. I stop at that point. I want to get a hydrometer to check the SG of the liquid that comes out in the trap which will be a first rough test to see the water content. It will be a trial and error method to find where the best compromise is between distilling longer and using more sieves and I need to take energy input into both aspects of this to
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Thanks Todd. It must have been 25 years ago that a friend was going to prepare lunch in a solar oven. The idea appealed to me at the time, but on a warm sunny day we watched and waited, and ended up having to fire up the grill. Solar ovens have apparently come a long way since then or you wouldn't be recommending them for regenerating zeolytes. I just Googled Solar Oven. Something about solar cooking still appeals to me, but I remain skeptical. In one part of a web page it says they quickly heat up to 360 -400F. In another part of the same site it says Superior Cooking is due to the slow even rise in temp. It's that slow rise in temp that concerns me. Are you referring to the same solar ovens (under $200 US) that can be used to cook food (and do they really work?) or is there some other, high tech version? Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. The temp needed can be achieved in a solar oven. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Thanks for the reply. You wrote: 1. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. I don't know what this will tell me. What would I be looking for in terms of vapor temp? 3. I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. I would appreciate them. I am in the early stages of planning ethanol ferment/distillation. If the permit is approved, I hope to start in the coming months. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, April 28, 2006 10:27 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Thanks for the time you put into your response. Re: Zeolites. I should probably buy some and experiment.I have a note to but 3A molecular sieve. I'll check to make sure that's the right one. As I understand it, with pressure constant, a liquid at boiling point does not increase in temp. as energy is added. The energy (latent heat of vaporization) goes into producing the phase change. My impression was that the temp increase stalled at 150F even though I had the heater on. Well then that's where the majority of methanol is coming off. Remember that water vapour is also coming off at that temperature or even room temp for that matter. I found that with vacuum if I opened the throttle I could make the reactor temperature drop even to the point that the heater coming on would not keep up with the energy loss due to the heat of vaporization. It rose very slowly to 160F, but at this point I turned the heater off and let the methanol flow. I gave it a bit of heat every now and then, but the temp stayedbetween 155 - 170F. This went on for hours and by then I had collected more than 4.5 gal (17.7L) of methanol. It got late, I got tired and decided to just crank it up ... leave the heater on. Above 160F the temp seemed to rise more quickly. Maybe much of the methanol had been removed --- less energy being used to evap methanol, more to heating remaining mix Yes as you recognized at some point here is an obvious increase in temp or decrease in vapour pressure which ever way you look at it. This is a logical endpoint or close to. The question is really how much water can you live with. Much of the literature says absolutely none but this is a relative thing. As you know there is always water and it's just a question of how much. One day I should purposely do a set of tests with sequentially more water and find out. If I had all the time and oil and chemicals in the world I'm not through with this yet. In fact I have plenty more glycerine/methanol to try. snip Is this the idea? Knowing the conc. of radioactive water in the ethanol/water mix, the amount of radioactive water remaining in the ethanol after treating w. the zeolite would allow calc. of the amount of water removed. Exactly. The amount of radioactivity in the solvent after drying is a direct indication of the amount of heavy water. Hard to measure such small amounts otherwise! We are talking about PPB or ones'ys and twos'ys of PPM. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Several years ago a guy up the street was out on a sunny day with a plastic fesnel lens that was about a meter long and 2/3 meter wide and he and his son were focusing the sun on about a 10cm sized spot on some asphault he had added to the end of his driveway. The asphault was smoking. I grabbed a twig and put it on the concrete curb stone and asked him to put the sun on it. He moved the spot to it and it burst into flame in a second! I have heard of people getting surplus C-band satellite dishes (the big ones) and glueing little peices of broken mirrors to the dish and putting a heat exchanger up at the dishes feedpoint. It needs to be aimed at the sun but it would be very powerful and dead cheap! Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Thanks Todd. It must have been 25 years ago that a friend was going to prepare lunch in a "solar oven". The idea appealed to me at the time, but on a warm sunny day we watched and waited, and ended up having to fire up the grill. Solar ovens have apparently come a long way since then or you wouldn't be recommending them for regenerating zeolytes. I just Googled "Solar Oven". Something about solar cooking still appeals to me, but I remain skeptical. In one part of a web page it says they "quickly heat up to 360 -400F". In another part of the same site it says Superior Cooking is due to the "slow even rise in temp." It's that slow rise in temp that concerns me. Are you referring to the same solar ovens (under $200 US) that can be used to cook food (and do they really work?) or is there some other, high tech version? Tom - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. The temp needed can be achieved in a solar oven. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Thanks for the reply. You wrote: 1. "There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum." I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. "Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time." I don't know what this will tell me. What would I be looking for in terms of vapor temp? 3. "I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them." I would appreciate them. I am in the early stages of planning ethanol ferment/distillation. If the permit is approved, I hope to start in the coming months. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, April 28, 2006 10:27 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Joe, Funny you mention the satellite dish. I am gathering materials to build a small satellite dish solar concentrator. I am going to glue mylar to the surface of the dish and have a black pipe at the focal point to heat the working liquid. My guess is I'll have to figure out how to regulate flow and track the sun very well. What's the best source for a sun tracker? On 4/28/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Several years ago a guy up the street was out on a sunny day with a plastic fesnel lens that was about a meter long and 2/3 meter wide and he and his son were focusing the sun on about a 10cm sized spot on some asphault he had added to the end of his driveway. The asphault was smoking. I grabbed a twig and put it on the concrete curb stone and asked him to put the sun on it. He moved the spot to it and it burst into flame in a second! I have heard of people getting surplus C-band satellite dishes (the big ones) and glueing little peices of broken mirrors to the dish and putting a heat exchanger up at the dishes feedpoint. It needs to be aimed at the sun but it would be very powerful and dead cheap! Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Thanks Todd. It must have been 25 years ago that a friend was going to prepare lunch in a solar oven. The idea appealed to me at the time, but on a warm sunny day we watched and waited, and ended up having to fire up the grill. Solar ovens have apparently come a long way since then or you wouldn't be recommending them for regenerating zeolytes. I just Googled Solar Oven. Something about solar cooking still appeals to me, but I remain skeptical. In one part of a web page it says they quickly heat up to 360 -400F. In another part of the same site it says Superior Cooking is due to the slow even rise in temp. It's that slow rise in temp that concerns me. Are you referring to the same solar ovens (under $200 US) that can be used to cook food (and do they really work?) or is there some other, high tech version? Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. The temp needed can be achieved in a solar oven. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Thanks for the reply. You wrote: 1. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. I don't know what this will tell me. What would I be looking for in terms of vapor temp? 3. I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. I would appreciate them. I am in the early stages of planning ethanol ferment/distillation. If the permit is approved, I hope to start in the coming months. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, April 28, 2006 10:27 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
http://www.ida.net/users/tetonsl/solar/page_iii.htm as i always say, your own rig works best for you. - Original Message - From: Paul S Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? Joe, Funny you mention the satellite dish. I am gathering materials to build a small satellite dish solar concentrator. I am going to glue mylar to the surface of the dish and have a black pipe at the focal point to heat the working liquid. My guess is I'll have to figure out how to regulate flow and track the sun very well. What's the best source for a sun tracker? On 4/28/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Several years ago a guy up the street was out on a sunny day with a plastic fesnel lens that was about a meter long and 2/3 meter wide and he and his son were focusing the sun on about a 10cm sized spot on some asphault he had added to the end of his driveway. The asphault was smoking. I grabbed a twig and put it on the concrete curb stone and asked him to put the sun on it. He moved the spot to it and it burst into flame in a second! I have heard of people getting surplus C-band satellite dishes (the big ones) and glueing little peices of broken mirrors to the dish and putting a heat exchanger up at the dishes feedpoint. It needs to be aimed at the sun but it would be very powerful and dead cheap! Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Thanks Todd. It must have been 25 years ago that a friend was going to prepare lunch in a solar oven. The idea appealed to me at the time, but on a warm sunny day we watched and waited, and ended up having to fire up the grill. Solar ovens have apparently come a long way since then or you wouldn't be recommending them for regenerating zeolytes. I just Googled Solar Oven. Something about solar cooking still appeals to me, but I remain skeptical. In one part of a web page it says they quickly heat up to 360 -400F. In another part of the same site it says Superior Cooking is due to the slow even rise in temp. It's that slow rise in temp that concerns me. Are you referring to the same solar ovens (under $200 US) that can be used to cook food (and do they really work?) or is there some other, high tech version? Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. The temp needed can be achieved in a solar oven. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Thanks for the reply. You wrote: 1. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. I don't know what this will tell me. What would I be looking for in terms of vapor temp? 3. I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. I would appreciate them. I am in the early stages of planning ethanol ferment/distillation. If the permit is approved, I hope to start in the coming months. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, April 28, 2006 10:27 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
You can build a well insulated, e-glass, almost-walk-in, oven for $200. I wouldn't buy one. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Thanks Todd. It must have been 25 years ago that a friend was going to prepare lunch in a solar oven. The idea appealed to me at the time, but on a warm sunny day we watched and waited, and ended up having to fire up the grill. Solar ovens have apparently come a long way since then or you wouldn't be recommending them for regenerating zeolytes. I just Googled Solar Oven. Something about solar cooking still appeals to me, but I remain skeptical. In one part of a web page it says they quickly heat up to 360 -400F. In another part of the same site it says Superior Cooking is due to the slow even rise in temp. It's that slow rise in temp that concerns me. Are you referring to the same solar ovens (under $200 US) that can be used to cook food (and do they really work?) or is there some other, high tech version? Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. The temp needed can be achieved in a solar oven. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, Thanks for the reply. You wrote: 1. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. I came across molecular sieves while reading about ethanol purification, and was lead to believe (mistakenly?)that they can be regenerated by drying in the sun. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. I don't know what this will tell me. What would I be looking for in terms of vapor temp? 3. I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. I would appreciate them. I am in the early stages of planning ethanol ferment/distillation. If the permit is approved, I hope to start in the coming months. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - *From:* Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, April 28, 2006 10:27 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return and recycling of distillate product from the condenser back down the fractionating column which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying the methanol. Mike McGinness bob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite molecular sieves in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Thomas, Part of the answer to your question is that the gas temperature (and the gas pressure) can go up beyond the boiling liquid temperature if you are heating a surface that is in contact with both the gas and the liquid and if the heated surface is hotter than the liquid. It has to do with heat flow rates, gas and liquid density and heat capacities. Therefore the gas can get hotter that the boiling liquid and the internal gas pressure can rise as well given enough heat input and the right physical configuration. Also the boiling point of a mixture, water and methanol, changes since you boil off more methanol and less water initially. There is a gradual increase in boiling temperature as the water content (% water) increases in the boiling mix, and there is a gradual increase in the water content in the condensate as the boiling temperature increases. Best, Mike McGinness Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe,Thanks for the time you put into your response.Re: Zeolites. I should probably buy some and experiment. I have a note to but 3A molecular sieve. I'll check to make sure that's the right one.As I understand it, with pressure constant, a liquid at boiling point does not increase in temp. as energy is added.The energy (latent heat of vaporization) goes into producing the phase change. My impression was that the temp increase stalled at 150F even though I had the heater on.It rose very slowly to 160F, but at this point I turned the heater off and let the methanol flow. I gave it a bit of heat every now and then, but the temp stayed between 155 - 170F. This went on for hours and by then I had collected more than 4.5 gal (17.7L) of methanol. It got late, I got tired and decided to just crank it up ... leave the heater on. Above 160F the temp seemed to rise more quickly. Maybe much of the methanol had been removed --- less energy being used to evap methanol, more to heating remaining mix I'm not through with this yet. In fact I have plenty more glycerine/methanol to try.You wrote:Let me see about digging out the paper. You may be able to find it. I cant remember the guy's name but I think he was Malaysian and he used tritiated water as a radioactive tracer in various solvents to measure the efficacy of the sieves in drying. Effective if not alarming Is this the idea?Knowing the conc. of radioactive water in the ethanol/water mix, the amount of radioactive water remaining in the ethanol after treating w. the zeolite would allow calc. of the amount of water removed. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? Hi Tom; Sieves are porous ceramic which microscopically look like a sponge. The pore size depends on manufacture and will allow molecules smaller than the pore size to go into the labrynth of passageways withing the bulk of the material. Larger molecules are excluded. Refer to manufacturers data for details but IIRC the numeric part number refers to the pore size in angstrom units. http://catalog.adcoa.ne /item/activated-alumina/type-3a/ms3a001?plpver=10origin=keywordby=prodassetid=specfilter=0 I do remember making a mental note that 3A was the one I wanted and don't get the powder, get the beads which work better for this application. The reasons are complicated and I won't get into them here but it is explained or actually hypothesised why in the paper. When it comes to regenerating, the porous maze works against us. Molecules of water which wander into the maze have nothing but thermal kinetic energy to determine thier fate and they get lost in the maze. Some find thier way out but until the material is saturated more go in due to diffusion laws and statistical rules until an equilibrium is reached where as many go in as out. Raising temperature gives the molecules more energy to bounce around and find an exit and a hot dry low pressure environment reverses the balance point to where molecules try to get out but it takes time, and energy helps. I have a hunch that a microwave oven may do wonders but I havent tried it and as the sieves approach dry the magnetron will have almost nothing as a load which may overheat and destroy it so try it with a junker oven if you can. Eventually a new equilibrium is reached where the zeolite has little water content and you can reuse it. BTW you would be stunned to learn just how much surface area these nanoporous media have. For example a chunk of charcoal made from the husk of a coconut which is just one cubic centimeter in volume has a surface area about the same as a football field
Re: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
When 160 proof ethanol and gasoline are mixed, what happens? does the gasoline mix with the ethanol and the water separate out from the ethanol and fall to the bottom? No. Your motor will stop. You will get a suspension of water and petrol (or gasoline, as you call it). I found that out with the motor of my boat last year and had to swim half an hour to get ashore. Greetings, Pieter Netherlands. thanks -Mark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
Some comments by Sir Harry Ricardo about his early work with fuels just after World War I may be of interest. This is from his book Memories and Machines (London: Constable, 1968): (Those intersted in the workings of piston engines should read The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine by Ricardo and Hempson (5th edition, Blackie, 1957) or earlier editions by Ricardo alone) Our investigation into the behaviour of fuels of the alcohol group brought into prominence the important part played by the latent heat of evaporation of the liquid fuel. The calorific value of say, ethyl alcohol is much less than that of petrol, but its latent heat of evaporation is about three times greater. According to Tizard and Pye's calculations the total heat energy of a standard cubic inch of an air/alcohol mixture was very slightly less than that for a straight alcohol fuel. Other things being equal, the power output returnable from an alcohol fuel should be correspondingly less; in fact we found it to be between 5 and 10% greater, the discrepancy being due to the lower temperature and therefore greater density of the mixture entering the cylinder. In short we were making use of the high latent heat of evaporation of alcohol to supercharge the cylinder by refrigeration to a degree that more than compensated for the lower internal energy per standard cubic inch of mixture. This observation suggested to us that it might be amusing to concoct a special fuel mixture for racing-cars and motorcycles. I discussed this possibility with Waley Cohen who had no objection, in fact, he, too, thought it would be rather fun. Ethyl alcohol, unlike its sister methyl, did not suffer from pre-ignition or detonation, even at the highest compression we could reach with our E35 [research] engine, but because of its poor volatility, cold starting with neat ethyl alcohol was virtually impossible. We had therefore to add a small proportion of a much more volatile fuel for the sake not only of startability but also of distribution in a multi-cylinder engine. The choice lay between methyl alcohol and acetone, and for a variety of reasons we chose the latter. Because of the low calorific value of ethyl alcohol we tried adding a substantial proportion of benzole as a thermal makeweight, while to compensate for the much lower latent heat of the latter, we added between 5 and 10 per cent of water. The presence of a small proportion of acetone served to act as a mutual solvent and formed a stable mixture between these otherwise incompatible components; thus we arrived at a fuel which in our E35 engine showed no trace of detonation or pre-ignition at its higest ratio of 8 to 1 or, expressd in modern terms, at an octane number of at least 100, as compared with about fifty in that of commercial petrol, and about sixty in that of the best aviation spirit... As applied to an existing engine without any modification other than fitting larger jets to the carburettor, this racing fuel gave, at high engine speeds, an increase in power output of between 5 and 10%, but when an engine was suitably modified to provide for a compression ratio of the order of 8 to 1, as much as a 30% increase could be obtained. Its use also had the advantage that its high latent heat of evaporation, most of which took place after its entry into the cylinder, both lowered the cycle temperature and, at the same time, provided much needed cooling to the piston and exhaust valve. For use on the road, however, this fuel mixure was not satisfactory, for its poor volatility involved bad distribution at low engine speed with consequent rough running and sluggish acceleration. To combat this it was necessary to employ a very rich mixture which, together with the low calorific value of the fuel, meant that the mileage per gallon was only about half that obtainable with petrol. As the price per gallon was about four times that of petrol, the real use of the fuel was limited to track racing at Brooklands and to hill climbing competitions... ...The introduction of this fuel broguht confusion to the committee responsible for handicapping, and after one season's racing its use, like that of pressure supercharging, was banned, but large quantities of the fuel continued to be sold to enthusiastic amateurs for ordinary road use despite its high cost and other drawbacks... Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
I have read much information that indicates ethanol has to be a higher proof (180+?) if it is to be mixed with gasoline. The reasoning given is that gasoline does not mix with water. I have been in the auto parts business for years and we sell gasoline additives that claim to remove moisture from the gasoline. I just checked one of these additives and it has a principle ingredient of Isopropyl Alcohol. I always assumed that ethanol would mix with water and gasoline to form one compound that would burn. But, after reading some of the ethanol material, i realize that i must be mistaken. When 160 proof ethanol and gasoline are mixed, what happens? does the gasoline mix with the ethanol and the water separate out from the ethanol and fall to the bottom? Why would isopropyl alcohol behave differently than ethanol? Why has our country converged on E85 as the alternative fuel of choice for gasoline vehicles? Is there any positive benefit from the gasoline added the ethanol, other than denaturing it? thanks -Mark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
You were right in the first assumption water and alcohol mix to make a flammable blend not as good B T U value as gasoline but much much better that water. Then the water/alcohol mix will blend with the gas thus dewatering the fuel in the tank. It is possible to use isopropyl ethanol or methanol to accomplish the same results. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:55 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline I have read much information that indicates ethanol has to be a higher proof (180+?) if it is to be mixed with gasoline. The reasoning given is that gasoline does not mix with water. I have been in the auto parts business for years and we sell gasoline additives that claim to remove moisture from the gasoline. I just checked one of these additives and it has a principle ingredient of Isopropyl Alcohol. I always assumed that ethanol would mix with water and gasoline to form one compound that would burn. But, after reading some of the ethanol material, i realize that i must be mistaken. When 160 proof ethanol and gasoline are mixed, what happens? does the gasoline mix with the ethanol and the water separate out from the ethanol and fall to the bottom? Why would isopropyl alcohol behave differently than ethanol? Why has our country converged on E85 as the alternative fuel of choice for gasoline vehicles? Is there any positive benefit from the gasoline added the ethanol, other than denaturing it? thanks -Mark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] water, ethanol and gasoline
- On Jan 25, 2006, at 9:54 AM, Mark Kennedy wrote: When 160 proof ethanol and gasoline are mixed, what happens? does the gasoline mix with the ethanol and the water separate out from the ethanol and fall to the bottom? It's complicated. do a Google search on ternary phase diagram ethanol water gasoline. With enough ethanol in the mix (70% by weight), any combination of gasoline and water will combine with the ethanol into a single phase. As the ethanol drops below the 70% level, an aqueous phase separates from the gasoline if the water fraction exceeds a small value. The exact amount of ethanol needed to keep a small amount of water dissolved in the gasoline depends sensitively on the amount of water. Once phase separation occurs, the proportion of ethanol that stays in the gasoline versus separating out with the water depends on the amounts of the three constituents. The phase diagram will make this clear. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water Removal
There is a type of absorbent that will only absorb water and water based products I used to have some at work along with a sister chemical for only oil. But I work with some dumb people that didnt read they used the water absorbent on oil spills and vise versa complaining that the product sucks. Now I have none of it left I will try to find out the name of the manufacture. But as I remember it quite expensive. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 8:10 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Water Removal Are there any methods other than heating the BD to remove water? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water Removal
Are there any methods other than heating the BD to remove water? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water yield from Sodium methoxode mixing.
Upon looking at the reaction of NaOH and methanol I realized that one equivalent of water is a yield of the reaction. Will this interfere with the tranesterification reaction? I thought that I read water wil cause saponification. Thanks, Bobby Clark If you looked at the messages I reffed in my previous response (below) you'd see it just decreases yield slightly. It's part of the reaction. It's important to keep any extra water out of the reaction, so you use pure catalyst and pure alcohol and dewater the oil if necessary. Besty wishes Keith Hello Bobby Does anyone have a printable MSDS for Sodium methoxide solution in methanol? I am having my first go at biodiesel this weekend and want to be as safe as possible. Thanks, Bobby I don't think you'll find one. You'll find MSDS for methoxide powder and for sodium methylate, which are both sodium methoxide but not the same as you'll be making. See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg33399.html Re: [biofuel] Methoxide Powder http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-August/thread.html#2803 The Biofuel August 2005 Archive by thread Biofuel] Sodium Methoxide MSDS (Sodium methylate) Anyway I don't see how an MSDS would be much help to you. This might be more helpful, from a previous message debunking someone talking nonsense about methanol: Methanol is also a very active chemical against which the human body has no means of defence. It is absorbed easily through the skin and there is no means of elimination from the body, so levels of methanol dissolved in the blood accumulate. Total crap. Try this: Methanol occurs naturally in humans, animals and plants. It is a natural constituent in blood, urine, saliva and expired air. A mean urinary methanol level of 0.73 mg/litre (range 0.3-2.61 mg/litre) in unexposed individuals and a range of 0.06 to 0.32 µg/litre in expired air have been reported... The two most important sources of background body burdens for methanol and formate are diet and metabolic processes. Methanol is available in the diet principally from fresh fruits and vegetables, fruit juices (average 140 mg/litre, range 12 to 640 mg/litre), fermented beverages (up to 1.5 g/litre) and diet foods (principally soft drinks). The artificial sweetener aspartame is widely used and, on hydrolysis, 10% (by weight) of the molecule is converted to free methanol, which is available for absorption... Elimination of methanol from the blood via the urine and exhaled air and by metabolism appears to be slow in all species, especially when compared to ethanol. Clearance proceeds with reported half-times of 24 h or more with doses greater than 1 g/kg and half-times of 2.5-3 h for doses less than 0.1 g/kg... The minimum lethal dose of methanol in the absence of medical treatment is between 0.3 and 1 g/kg. Also: Many national occupational health exposure limits suggest that workers are protected from any adverse effects if exposures do not exceed a time-weighted average of 260 mg/m3 (200 ppm) methanol for any 8-h day and for a 40-h working week. From: United Nations Environment Programme / International Labour Organisation / World Health Organization: International Programme On Chemical Safety, Environmental Health Criteria 196 - Methanol http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc196.htm Other authorities concur. You can see why I find it difficult to get the the end of it. We've hardly begun, but would you buy a used car from this man? Caustic soda is also not a very nice chemical and can cause irritation and serious burns. Indeed it can, but it's nonetheless a common household item sold in supermarkets and hardware stores, as is methanol, which is quite often to be found on dining tables being used as a fuel for fondues and Korean barbecues and so on. And being used as fuel in boys' model aeroplane engines. Not to underplay the hazards of methanol, but there are people who overplay it for their own reasons. See: Safety http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#safe Best wishes, good luck, let us know how you get on Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water yield from Sodium methoxode mixing.
Upon looking at the reaction of NaOH and methanol I realized that one equivalent of water is a yield of the reaction. Will this interfere with the tranesterification reaction? I thought that I read water wil cause saponification. Thanks, Bobby Clark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water in the oil
Could someone clear up my understanding of water in the oil reaction to heat. Somewhere I read that the oil will boil if water is present. Some of the oil I have only makes a poping pinging sound as it is heated,is this the same thing? although diminished it carries on over a 100c even as high as 120c This is a low acid oil 1.8 mls. Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in the oil
yes... u should be able to heat oil up as hot as u can well untill it bursts into flames it should not make any noise... poping, hissing, sizzling sounds. and bubbles are all signs of water in the oil... the water will take some time to all evaporate out... and thats a good thing.. u dont realy want hot oil flying around any more than u have to... Ray Ian Theresa Sims wrote: Could someone clear up my understanding of water in the oil reaction to heat. Somewhere I read that the oil will boil if water is present. Some of the oil I have only makes a poping pinging sound as it is heated, is this the same thing? although diminished it carries on over a 100c even as high as 120c This is a low acid oil 1.8 mls. Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
What's usually wrong with them? AntiFossil wrote: Marty, and all, I have to respectfully disagree with Bob C. on this one. The days of freebies are still very much alive! It might just be an issue of where you seek your freebies : ) Since approx. March of this year, I have been able to get 18 used water heaters. My only cost has been the time, and expense it takes to go and pick them up from 3 different plumbing/hardware shops in my local area. Had I wanted them, I would estimate that I could have had at least twice that many, although I would probably be divorced and living out of them right now had I accepted them all. There's really no secret to getting as many as you need. For most folks, I would think that one or two tanks would fine, but that would depend on your intentions. Find a local plumbing shop, or Hardware store (not a huge retail chain) that sells and installs what they sell and ask them what they do with the old water heaters that they remove during their installs. In my part of the world, two of the contractors bring the old water heaters back to their shops and dump them out back. Then, when this particular area get's full enough they call the scrap man and he comes and hauls them all away to the scrap metal yard for, as Bob C. noted, a fee. If you are willing to go and pick up a few of them for no fee, that's usually great news to these pro's! Good luck hunting water heaters! On 8/30/05, *Marty Phee* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info. My friend and I are going to do this. I'd like to start with a proven design and go from there and he has grand plans of how to do everything. I really don't have room to do it and he does so I need to give him leeway in the design. Bob Clark wrote: Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will a water heater ware out/rust out? Say if you start from a new heater. How long can you expect it to last? Marty, and all I am currently using six water heaters that have been in service for a little over five years. (One has actually been operating as a waste oil burner since 1996) and to date I have seen no sign of rust through and/or burn out. I have several more used water heaters that I am in the midst of converting for one project or another. ALL of the ones I am using were used to start with. One had a small leak in the seam when I originally obtained it, but I am lucky enough to have a complete steel fabrication shop here so repairing that wasn't too difficult. I have two electric tanks that I left the heating elements in to use as pre-heaters. Others are my first 'still' experiments and are fired with a modified propane burner, now running on methane gas. Those two would be the ones that I suspect will burn out first (the bottom area) so I keep a closer eye on them, but so far no sign of trouble. In our area the local trash companies collect used appliances (including water heaters) from off the side of the road once each quarter (every three months) so I always keep an eye out the weekend before the collection date and pickup all the water heaters I see. BUT, I have never used a new one for anything so can only guess about that, but my thought would be this: each of the heater tanks I am using now had been used for water heating for years before I got ahold of them. I KNOW they have lasted from five years to nine years (and still counting) so I would think it would be safe to say a new water heater tank should easily give you ten years of service, if you buy a quality one to start with. But a suggestion; if this will be your first 'project' using a water heater tank, why not see if you can find one at a local salvage yard or dump. The days of 'freebies from those kind of places are over (at least everyplace I know of) but the 'scrapper' is only going to get five dollars tops for the old heater, so they'd surely sell you one for ten bucks??? That would be a much smaller investment then a new water heater. However, if you have some experience with your project already and want to make sure you start with a good tank, maybe new would be the way to go? I guess only you can make that choice, but based on my own personal uses, a used tank will give you a good deal of service and provides a very inexpensive way to 'experiment'. BTW, I have built several other cookers and stills since those first ones and in some projects I have use one inch steel plate (for fireboxes and support walls of a digester) and a couple of heavy gauge stainless steel tanks, but the old water heaters are still used regularly and are going fine. To be fair, the two
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Greetings, One can get just about anything for free, if you ask nicely. I have 3000 square feet of tile that was mine for hauling it home. Most of my walls and shelving units are made from scrounged wood, mine for the hauling. In Huntsville Texas, there is a man that started a company building homes with the stuff regular contractors throw out. Last I heard, he was up to about 10 houses a year. It is truly wonderful what happens when you think outside the box. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:16 PM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Marty, and all, I have to respectfully disagree with Bob C. on this one. The days of freebies are still very much alive! It might just be an issue of where you seek your freebies : ) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Hi all, I guess I should have worded my message a little better!!! The days of freebies in our area, AND WHEN IT COMES TO ANYTHING STEEL, are over. I'm sure some people are still lucky enough to live in areas that you might be able to get a free used hot water heater from a junkyard or dump, but around here, anything with a steel content is quickly grabbed up by the many, many scrapyards and independent scrappers. As for the dumps, you practically need a letter from the govenor to remove anything, and then there is a price attached. So, I guess it's all about where you live anymore. As soon as I throw all freebies together, I know I'm wrong because I get a lot of freebies here too, just not steel. There are many other things for the taking (and even a few they'll pay you to haul off) and if you're looking for antique furniture, well most people around here discard it with their other trash on collection days. I guess the point I was trying to make is that someone who wanted to build their first project with a water heater tank should not have to pay any more then ten dollars AT THE VERY MOST because they only have a scrap value of slightly less then five dollars. And I'm sure there are a lot of states, (Arkansas for example where many of my in-laws live) where you can still scrounge things at dumps for free (and also unsupervised). So yes, it is an issue combined of what freebies you are seeking and where you live. To state it correctly, in the area of Pittsburg, PA going northwest to Cleveland, OH, there is such an emphasis on gathering and selling any steel scrap that you are quite unlikely to get any freebie water heaters or other steel containers from a junkyard or dump. On the other hand, there are dozens of places to get plastic barrels and drums -- FOR FREE. So sorry if I misspoke and/or upset anyone, but I think you just overlooked the point I was making for a specific item. And (please note the HUMOR here), if anything can be had for free, would someone PLEASE like to donate me a 400HP diesel engine, complete with radiator, etc. :-) That would save me a lot of money on my project in progress :-) Thanks, Bob C. -Original Message- From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Aug 31, 2005 9:08 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water heater Greetings, One can get just about anything for free, if you ask nicely. I have 3000 square feet of tile that was mine for hauling it home. Most of my walls and shelving units are made from scrounged wood, mine for the hauling. In Huntsville Texas, there is a man that started a company building homes with the stuff regular contractors throw out. Last I heard, he was up to about 10 houses a year. It is truly wonderful what happens when you think outside the box. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:16 PM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Marty, and all, I have to respectfully disagree with Bob C. on this one. The days of freebies are still very much alive! It might just be an issue of where you seek your freebies : ) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
This sounds too cool. Are you saying you are using old NG Electric water heaters for... what? Stills? Oil fired boilers? Bio-Diesel batch heaters? I love this group! I need pictures, plans schematics. Pretty please! Oh I can't wait. I think I will go down to the dump and grab one or two and see if I can convert one for a radiant floor hot water heater. My son was just telling me the other day that his lady's dad had 55 gallons of used motor oil he wanted to sell or do something with, I cheerfully chirped in, Why not burn it in a boiler. I had no idea what I was saying, of course. But it sounded smart, I liked that. Now here I see that I can do it too. I assume you burn the waste from the Bio-Diesel refining. This sounds better every day I am here. Thank you all Brian Rodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Hi Mike (ANTIFOSSIL) and all, I hadn't read your entire message when I posted my last comments, only the part which was included in the next message. The fact is, that when I lived in Oregon I could have collected enough free used water heaters to start my own scrapyard. Now, living in the middle of what once was the US's largest steel producing region, there is a lot more emphasis on scrap metal collection. I not only tried hardware stores, I happen to be on a team with the owner of a plumbing supply. I started asking him six years ago about his used water heaters and he guards them like they were gold! All the ones that come back from replacements are put in a fencedyard and 'inventoried' just like the new one's and they all are put on a Bill of Lading when they go to the scrap yard. In fact, I could go to the scrap yard and buy one for less then he was willing to sell for!! Just for the sake of accuracy, I called a local scrapmetal dealer TODAY to see what the going price is. For water heaters and other 'similar' items (I guess cook stoves, etc.) they are paying $130 per ton, unprocessed. If you disassemble the heaters and separate the valves, sheet metal, etc. they pay only $110 per ton for the sheeting, but anywhere from $160 to $195 per ton for the various metals the plumbing and valves are made from. I guess that's why only individual homeowners put out used water heaters for free -- and then you have to beat the scappers to them!! Once again, never meant to cause anyone any headaches, but just telling it the way it is where I live. So, I guess it truly does make a difference where you live?? Take Care, Bob C. -Original Message- From: AntiFossil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Aug 30, 2005 11:16 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water heater Marty, and all,I have to respectfully disagree with Bob C. on this one. The days of freebies are still very much alive! It might just be an issue of where you seek your freebies : )Since approx. March of this year, I have been able to get 18 used water heaters. My only cost has been the time, and expense it takes to go and pick them up from 3 different plumbing/hardware shops in my local area. Had I wanted them, I would estimate that I could have had at least twice that many, although I would probably be divorced and living out of them right now had I accepted them all. There's really no secret to getting as many as you need. For most folks, I would think that one or two tanks would fine, but that would depend on your intentions. Find a local plumbing shop, or Hardware store (not a huge retail chain) that sells and installs what they sell and ask them what they do with the old water heaters that they remove during their installs. In my part of the world, two of the contractors bring the old water heaters back to their shops and dump them out back. Then, when this particular area get's "full enough" they call the scrap man and he comes and hauls them all away to the scrap metal yard for, as Bob C. noted, a fee. If you are willing to go and pick up a few of them for no fee, that's usually great news to these pro's! Good luck hunting water heaters! On 8/30/05, Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info.My friend and I are going to do this.I'd like tostart with a proven design and go from there and he has grand plans ofhow to do everything.I really don't have room to do it and he does so I need to give him leeway in the design.Bob Clark wrote: Marty Phee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Will a water heater ware out/rust out?Say if you start from a new heater.How long can you expect it to last?Marty, and allI am currently using six water heaters that have been "in service" for a little over five years. (One has actually been operating as a waste oil burner since 1996) and to date I have seen no sign of rust through and/or burn out. I have several more used water heaters that I am in the midst of converting for one project or another. ALL of the ones I am using were used to start with. One had a small leak in the seam when I originally obtained it, but I am lucky enough to have a complete steel fabrication shop here so repairing that wasn't too difficult. I have two electric tanks that I left the heating elements in to use as pre-heaters. Others are my first 'still' experiments and are fired with a modified propane burner, now running on methane gas. Those two would be the ones that I suspect will burn out first (the bottom area) so I keep a closer eye on them, but so far no sign of trouble.In our area the local trash companies collect used appliances (including water heaters) from off the side of the road once each quarter (every three months) so I always keep an eye out the weekend before the collection date and pickup all the water heaters I see. BUT, I have never used a new one for anything so can only guess about that, but my thought would be this: each of the heater tanks I am using now had b
Re: [Biofuel] Water heater
Hello Brian Quite a lot of people use water heaters to make these waste oil heaters that Bob just mentioned: Hope that helps a little, and I'm sure there are others on this list with a lot more experience using water heaters then I. I got my original ideas and plans from a Mother Earth News magazine from 1980, so there are a lot of people that have been doing this much longer then I have. My 'experience' only started in 1996. GOOD LUCK and happy fueling. That's here, and has been for five years: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html Mother Earth: Waste Oil Heater Very popular page. It's a whole 9-page section, there's more there than just the old waste oil heater: MOTHER's Waste Oil Heater Instructions in a nutshell -- with photographs Feedback Journey to Forever's Waste Oil Heater Modifications: Bruce Woodford's forced-air waste oil heater Journey to Forever's forced-air biofuel heater Marty's forced-air waste oil heater A lot of people also use water heaters as biodiesel reactors, and here's the original one, by list member Dale (who never gets credited with all the copies, seems to me): The touchless processor http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree Take care of the other designs bandied about, they don't all do what they're supposed to do. And consider whether you'd prefer a sealed processor (water heaters) or a closed one with a lid you can take off so you can get at the inside if you have to. Lots of those here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html Test-batch mini-processor Simple 5-gallon processor Journey to Forever 90-litre processor The 'Deepthort 100B' Batch Reactor Ian's vacuum biodiesel processor Chuck Ranum's biodiesel processor Micro-Production System for Biodiesel 833 Gallon Per Day Batch Plant K.I.S.S. processor Pelly Model A processor Foolproof method processors The touchless processor Continuous reactors How to make a cone-bottomed processor Best wishes Keith This sounds too cool. Are you saying you are using old NG Electric water heaters for... what? Stills? Oil fired boilers? Bio-Diesel batch heaters? I love this group! I need pictures, plans schematics. Pretty please! Oh I can't wait. I think I will go down to the dump and grab one or two and see if I can convert one for a radiant floor hot water heater. My son was just telling me the other day that his lady's dad had 55 gallons of used motor oil he wanted to sell or do something with, I cheerfully chirped in, Why not burn it in a boiler. I had no idea what I was saying, of course. But it sounded smart, I liked that. Now here I see that I can do it too. I assume you burn the waste from the Bio-Diesel refining. This sounds better every day I am here. Thank you all Brian Rodgers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
