Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote:
So again no real argument why when a Frenchmen uploads thousands of
buildings a day he is doing something really different than someone of a
different nationality doing the same.
No difference. The difference is not French/Others but more Bulk Import
of raw
Richard, there is a misunderstanding there... I'm in favor of your
changeset tags idea as a replacement to the dedicated account. I see
it more efficient to track data source than unlisted dedicated
accounts, hundreds of them sometimes for the same data source.
2012/10/19 Richard Fairhurst
On 10/18/2012 11:13 PM, Cartinus wrote:
On 10/18/2012 09:44 PM, Christian Rogel wrote:
By the way, could you stand receiving any message in a language you
cannot understand. that seems to be looking for
infuriating the non-English speaking users?
On 10/18/2012 10:30 PM, Eric Marsden wrote:
From: Jean-Marc Liotier [mailto:j...@liotier.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against
French contributors (cadastre integration)
Of course, international collaboration requires a common ground and the
Internet has
De : Paul Norman penor...@mac.com
If the French community has contact info (email preferred) for someone who
speaks both English and French and is willing to take on dealing with
contacting users and getting them to use dedicated accounts I'd welcome it.
But you already have it ( Christian
Am 19.10.2012 00:47, schrieb andrzej zaborowski:
This is off topic in this thread, but I'd like to set the record
straight. Who do you refer to as we when you say you had to spend
any time sorting those changes? T
Just so that it is clear to our dear readers: there is no doubt
My opinion as an italian contributor
On 2012-10-18 at 14:34:37 -0700, Jérome Armau wrote:
In non-English-speaking countries, that also means that the average
contributor:
- does not have a very good command of English (beyond the tagging
standards)
- does not know about services such as
Am 18.10.2012 23:34, schrieb Jérome Armau:
Keep in mind that we're trying to make the openstreetmap project
accessible to a larger share of the population. In every single
country, that means appealing to a non-computer-geek crowd. For
example, the usage of -Djosm.home=dir is dark magic to
On 19/10/2012 10:14, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote:
you can't expect people from the project to speak French, German,
Italian, Spanish, Polish and every other language spoken whenever
people want to form a local OSM community (or just map).
That is why intermediaries are needed - and why the
Am 19.10.2012 10:14, schrieb Elena ``of Valhalla'':
what you should do as a local community
is to setup a translation team that translates important
messages / threads from this (and other important global mailing lists)
to and from the local one.
+1
Just as an example: not every person in
Dear Elena,
Dear all, Cari amici, Chers amis,
Liebe Freundinnen und Freunde, Sevgili Arkadaşlar, Dragi prieteni
oí galera, ...
First of all thank you Elena for your comments.
May I aks you *all* to cool down a little bit.
What I read here in the last days,
On 2012-10-19 at 10:36:40 +0200, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
On 19/10/2012 10:14, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote:
you can't expect people from the project to speak French, German,
Italian, Spanish, Polish and every other language spoken whenever
people want to form a local OSM community (or just
On 19/10/2012 11:36, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
I think we have the same aims, and the HOW TO should be resolved.
I do believe that deep down inside we have the same implicit goals. But
there seem to be a few misunderstanding about how to turn those implicit
common goals into explicit common
On 19/10/2012 11:42, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote:
On 2012-10-19 at 10:36:40 +0200, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
That is why intermediaries are needed - and why the English speakers must learn
to accept the need for international intermediation.
who are these English speakers?
They are you and me
Cher Jean-Marc and all
2012/10/19 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org
On 19/10/2012 11:36, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
I think we have the same aims, and the HOW TO should be resolved.
Tu crois qu'il est juste de répondre seulement à une phrase? Non, je ne
croix pas. Ca c'est tout simple!
I
De : Paul Norman penor...@mac.com
If the French community has contact info (email preferred) for someone who
speaks both English and French and is willing to take on dealing with
contacting users and getting them to use dedicated accounts I'd welcome it.
But you already have it (
No problem for me as long as the process in setting such hard rules is
transparent, community driven and reaches a consensus which is
obviously not the case at all stages here.
That's why I ask questions about governance... but nobody seems to be
interested and prefer to keep on focusing the
FWIW, I'm interested to see the disagreeing parties to get together and work
out a solution, I'm a friend of subsidiarity, but we clearly have a couple of
OSM-global issues to solve:
- proper tracking of imports given current technical limitations
- ideal solutions and the path there
-
On 19/10/2012 13:07, Alex Barth wrote:
FWIW, I'm interested to see the disagreeing parties to get together and work
out a solution, I'm a friend of subsidiarity, but we clearly have a couple of
OSM-global issues to solve:
- proper tracking of imports given current technical limitations
-
On 10/19/2012 08:40 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
I was looking for examples of cultural imperialism - here is a very nice
one, thanks !
You cut off the P.S. No, English is not my native language. and missed
the .nl in my e-mail address.
--
---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus
On 19/10/2012 14:35, Cartinus wrote:
On 10/19/2012 08:40 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
I was looking for examples of cultural imperialism - here is a very nice one,
thanks !
You cut off the P.S. No, English is not my native language. and missed
the .nl in my e-mail address
Willing vassals are
On Oct 19, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
Preamble:
all (Netherlands, English, Italien, French, German, DWG ...) here on the list
would ensure the quality of data in OSM.
Facts:
1. Our french friends have done and will do imports into the database from
cadastre.
2. Some
On Oct 19, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
and last but not least ... please cool down ... dont talk to me about
cultural differences - try to solve the issue.
Oh, and by the way, I really don't think the root cause of the situation has
anything to do with cultural differences,
Hi Oliver ...
thank you for a factual and explanatory answer.
At least I hope you can stop the flamewar.
2012/10/19 Olivier Croquette m...@ocroquette.de
On Oct 19, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
Preamble:
all (Netherlands, English, Italien, French, German, DWG ...) here on
On 19/10/2012 15:30, Manfred A. Reiter wrote:
At least I hope you can stop the flamewar.
Talking about that, members of the talk-fr mailing list are discussing
pragmatic solutions that might bring everyone together at last:
- On the political plane, there is talk about how a qualified
On 19 October 2012 09:17, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
..
The UMP imports show nicely how broken at least object level source
tagging is, a large number of objects have/were infected by source tags
from UMP imports without actually being derived from such data requiring
heuristics to
Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
Talking about that, members of the talk-fr mailing list are
discussing pragmatic solutions that might bring everyone together
Good luck. I tried that last month:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2012-September/064482.html
and immediately got shouted down
(Désolé d'envoyer ce mail en anglais sur la liste talk-fr, mais c'est
plutôt dirigé vers talk en général)
I have been following talk-fr myself and my opinion on the 'efforts' of
pnorman is that he is trying very hard to chase away well meaning
contributors in France. The French cadastre is just
2012/10/18 Jo winfi...@gmail.com:
The French are integrating the data of the cadastre, their surveys, their
local knowledge and Bing aerial images to improve Openstreetmap.org as a
whole. They are not doing a bulk import that needs to be sorted out later
on.
The local community's opinion
[I know it might be painfull to continue this discussion on talk, but it's
even worse on talk-fr as lots of people don't read english and will be anoyed
by this discussion, so I'm switching to an english talking mailing list]
Frederik,
See, the same applies to DWG as well. It is utterly
regards
Julien
De : Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
À : winfi...@gmail.com
Cc : osm talk@openstreetmap.org; d...@osmfoundation.org
Envoyé le : Jeudi 18 octobre 2012 13h10
Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French
Hi,
On 10/18/12 08:43, Jo wrote:
The French are integrating the data of the cadastre, their surveys,
their local knowledge and Bing aerial images to improve
Openstreetmap.org as a whole. They are not doing a bulk import that
needs to be sorted out later on.
Anyone who uploads 1 houses in
Hi martin,
please also see the other side's motivation: there is good reason not
to put meta data into the main database but on a changeset level,
You have to prove such a claim and then compare it to the bad reasons not to
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/source#values
(There are
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
(creating a separate account) Why is this such a big deal for people?
Frederik, It's true that only a small part of the French community
imports buildings. And DWG only detects a part of them, only those
using big
Am 18.10.2012 13:45, schrieb sly (sylvain letuffe):
Hi martin,
please also see the other side's motivation: there is good reason not
to put meta data into the main database but on a changeset level,
You have to prove such a claim and then compare it to the bad reasons not to
Hi Peter,
To set these in josm use the corresponding tab in the upload dialog of
JOSM.
Sorry for beeing unclear, yes I know that, I was refering to the other way
round.
A way to automatically add changeset tags in JOSM, without I forgot, too
long, too hard, too... based on a previous
Hi,
On 10/18/12 13:56, Pieren wrote:
Even if you don't ask, I will reply:
- no argument has been able to convince people that this rule is
necessary here (I will not repeat all the arguments already mentionned
in the past weeks).
That is actually not new in DWG work. It does sometimes happen
Am 18.10.2012 14:08, schrieb sly (sylvain letuffe):
Hi Peter,
To set these in josm use the corresponding tab in the upload dialog of
JOSM.
Sorry for beeing unclear, yes I know that, I was refering to the other way
round.
A way to automatically add changeset tags in JOSM, without I forgot, too
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
Just because you are not convinced that a certain rule is good, doesn't mean
it doesn't apply to you.
C'mon Frederik. We are not talking about a single contributor. Perhaps
from outside, you have this impression but it
2012/10/18 THEVENON Julien julien_theve...@yahoo.fr:
There is generally a problem with entering data for which you are not
the full rights holder and which is not in the PD. The data you
import/merge has strings attached (requires attribution which may not
be removed) which might lead to
De : Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
My French is a bit rusty but I think that this is the crucial part:
non soumise aux droits patrimoniaux d’auteur
Now compare to this paragraph:
Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of
an osm-planet and publish this extract under ODbL it is illegal?
If so, this is a very problematic thing. It should be allowed, to do
anything that ODbL-license (and also cc-by-sa license did this before)
allows me to do
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Henning Scholland o...@aighes.de wrote:
Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of an
osm-planet and publish this extract under ODbL it is illegal?
There is no difference between ODbl and CC-by-SA on this point. But
please, forward
2012/10/18 Pieren pier...@gmail.com:
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Henning Scholland o...@aighes.de wrote:
Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of an
osm-planet and publish this extract under ODbL it is illegal?
There is no difference between ODbl and
Hi,
On 10/18/12 14:41, Pieren wrote:
It's more than 5 minutes if you have to create first a new email
account (I know now all the tricks to duplicate our first email
account but then explain why a different email address is still
required) then spend time to continuously switch from one account
Pierre Enclos wrote:
Henning Scholland wrote:
Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of
an osm-planet and publish this extract [...] it is illegal?
There is no difference between ODbl and CC-by-SA on this point.
Which may be true but is largely irrelevant. :)
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
[...]
But 1 houses? Show me the brain that has enough local knowledge to
individually verify them, or show me the mapper who compares them
against aerial imagery. You may call it integrating, but uploading
1 houses is 99,9% cadastre, 0,1%
Henning Scholland o...@aighes.de wrote:
Just a question: If I filter all buildings with cadastre-source out of
an osm-planet and publish this extract under ODbL it is illegal?
It's now a composite work because users has add tag (adresses, name,
amenity, shop...) to raw original data (and
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
Both of these are technical issues that could be solved, and I'm
prepared to help solve them - at least on the JOSM side, it would be
easy to make it so that JOSM can store multiple identities and when you
hit upload you can select which identity to
So far, the only explanation about the usesulness of the dedicated
account is linked to tracking imported data or I missed something on
the wiki.
If this is the goal, why small changesets of imported data may not
require a dedicated account ?
This data doesn't need to be tracked ?
I'm also
On Oct 18, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote:
So far, the only explanation about the usesulness of the dedicated
account is linked to tracking imported data or I missed something on
the wiki.
Same here, I'd like to understand this better. Conceptually it seems
As I said previously, the DGW cannot be only charged about its rude behaviour.
The fault is up to the Foundation. Let 's say ay that the Board of Directors,
newly elected, has to kept
the Community in peace.
It has to clarify its links with the DWG and precise in which cases a so-called
On 18-10-2012 20:52, Christian Quest wrote:
So far, the only explanation about the usesulness of the dedicated
account is linked to tracking imported data or I missed something on
the wiki.
If this is the goal, why small changesets of imported data may not
require a dedicated account ?
This
fr == Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org writes:
fr If I do that, would that change the attitude towards the separate
fr account question, or would it be a a waste of time?
Frederik, you are focussing on the technical ramifications of this
rather narrow separate account issue, but in
Christian,
I think you are mixing up things here.
There is a general requirement for a dedicated import account, and you
write yourself that you think that it is good to use a dedicated import
in some cases.
While this requirement is in theory a general requirement, DWG has never
On 10/18/2012 3:57 PM, Frank Steggink wrote:
Does nobody know about the -Djosm.home=dir parameter you can pass to
JOSM when starting up? It can be put easily in a shortcut.
The difficulty is that any JOSM customization (styles, plugins,
preferences) becomes spread among multiple accounts
On 10/18/2012 09:44 PM, Christian Rogel wrote:
By the way, could you stand receiving any message in a language you
cannot understand. that seems to be looking for
infuriating the non-English speaking users?
On 10/18/2012 10:30 PM, Eric Marsden wrote:
- the way in which DWG is undertaking
2012/10/18 Eric Marsden eric.mars...@free.fr:
fr == Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org writes:
fr If I do that, would that change the attitude towards the separate
fr account question, or would it be a a waste of time?
Frederik, you are focussing on the technical ramifications of this
Keep in mind that we're trying to make the openstreetmap project accessible
to a larger share of the population. In every single country, that means
appealing to a non-computer-geek crowd. For example, the usage of -Djosm.
home=dir is dark magic to most people. Even though it's acceptable to
most
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Jérome Armau jerar...@gmail.com wrote:
Keep in mind that we're trying to make the openstreetmap project accessible
to a larger share of the population. In every single country, that means
appealing to a non-computer-geek crowd. For example, the usage of
On 10/18/2012 11:34 PM, Jérome Armau wrote:
Keep in mind that we're trying to make the openstreetmap project accessible
to a larger share of the population. In every single country, that means
appealing to a non-computer-geek crowd. For example, the usage of -Djosm.
home=dir is dark magic to
2012/10/18 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org
Hi,
On 10/18/12 14:41, Pieren wrote:
It's more than 5 minutes if you have to create first a new email
account (I know now all the tricks to duplicate our first email
account but then explain why a different email address is still
required)
Cartinus wrote
I think it is more reasonable to assume that any contributor to a
multinational open project like openstreetmap knows how to use
lt;http://translate.google.comgt; or any other such service.
The continued use of the argument the message was not in French is
just silly. You
I think your approach based solely on the dataset size has limits. A
typical French village with a few hundred inhabitants will include
somewhere around 15,000 nodes and 500 building-tagged ways (that's a
village I know with 200 inhabitants). Now, integrating such amounts of data
doesn't mean that
On 18 October 2012 23:05, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
In a recent message, to talk-it
(http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2012-September/030778.html),
Paul writes
We recognize that the line between an import and assisted mapping is not
currently clearly defined;
On 18.10.2012 15:02, THEVENON Julien wrote:
it means that we cannot distribute raw data coming from Cadastre alone.
We are allowed to distribute them only if they are part of composite
dataset/work ( = mixed with data coming from other sources ) and only
if we add to them the information that
On 18.10.2012 14:19, Frederik Ramm wrote:
In the end, we have no choice but to block them; if, even though we
tried, someone doesn't want to play by the rules then he can't play at
all.
Just because you are not convinced that a certain rule is good,
doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you.
I
Am 19.10.2012 00:02, schrieb Apollinaire:
Now, I let you play with your favorite tool : translate.google.com
Bonjour,
[...]
Gaëtan
auch wenn die Gramatik nach FR = DE dort sehr schlecht ist: it is
readable to just fly over it understanding sufficient content and
quicker to read it it in
And that's exactly why we're all here, discussing the issue. So that we can
come up with answers regarding:
1) What the exact role of the DWG is
2) How the DWG should go about interacting with the various communities and
individual contributors across the globe
3) Whether and how
Sorry:
is going it's complete way in basic issues:
is going it's complete seperate way in basic issues:
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
On 10/19/2012 12:02 AM, Apollinaire wrote:
Je suis cette affaire d'un peu loin depuis le début, mais avec assez
d'intérêt pour aller jeter un coup d’œil sur le talk « General Discussion »
de temps en temps. Lorsque j'ai vu certains ramener leurs fraises pour dire
« la règle c'est la règle »
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