Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
--On Wednesday, September 09, 2009 08:38:41 PM +0200 M Henri Day mhenri...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/9 Bernd Eilers bernd.eil...@sun.com Hi there! Cor Nouws wrote: Lars Nooden wrote (7-9-2009 10:01) If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... To make it easier for you, to see a bit of the latest prototype (0.16), a Dutch journalist was so friendly to publish this: http://webwereld.nl/gallery/63487/openoffice-kiest-ribbon-combinatie--f oto-s-.html (Mind, #2 is not 0.16 - this slide shows the choices in the prototype-app) Nice publication indeed. Just a quick heads up to those who have so far seen only remarks or screenshots on mailinglists, blogs and websites. The prototype application can still be started via java webstart from within a browser using the following URL http://tools.services.openoffice.org/impressprototype/impressprototype.j nlp Prerequisite is that you have java 1.5 installed on your system. Probably much better to have a look yourself than depending on someone else opinion. Regards, Cor Regards, Bernd Eilers Bernd, on the surface this prototype Impress looks fine to me ; that is to say, I would have no problem with such a GUI. I have yet to look at it so I'm expressing no opinion on that issue. But my experience with Impress in general is that it's difficult to get it to work right when, e g, opening pps files sent me as email attachments by others. For example, when I attempt to run a lovely pps presentation in homage to Vincent Van Gogh with the artist's paintings and music by Don Mclean in Impress (versions from OOo 3.0 to OOo-dev 3.2.0 m57 (Build:9422) , the audio doesn't work I found the same to be true with a different pps presentation. and I have to mouse-click or hit the space bar every time I wish to advance thé presentation. I started out this way but found that I could set it to change slides every n seconds and even to restart after m seconds. Since I, an impress novice, was able to find how to resolve this I don't think it is a show stopper -- merely an annoyance. -- Jim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
--On Wednesday, September 09, 2009 03:00:01 PM +0200 Per Joh perj...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/9 Lars Nooden larsnoo...@openoffice.org Cor Nouws wrote: ... So anything that might look as being related (even in distance) cannot be else then bad also, isn't it?! Hmm. It's called learning. Try it. FWIW Now it’s time for me to “log-of” this list, ´cause it’s to much One Man Show here right now, Mr. Nooden barks at every tree in the forest, all the parks around him… And no one else but him is right… pretty tired to read all those remarkable – *in my opinion, but hey. I’ve been wrong other times* – stupid comments from Lars. I've given serious consideration to dumping all messages that Mr. Nooden posts or that are a response to ones that he posts. For a few hours recently I even automated the process of responding to his posts by sending him a message that his message had been deleted with extreme prejudice but decided that this was too rude a step to take. We could burn up the internet with an automated flame war by doing that. Not good! :-[ As has been stated, this list is not intended for this type of discussion and personal, abusive, attacks are not appropriate in any case. -- Jim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Cor Nouws wrote: ... So anything that might look as being related (even in distance) cannot be else then bad also, isn't it?! Hmm. It's called learning. Try it. Lemme guess, you were surprised each and every time Lucy didn't let Charlie Brown kick the football, right? Regards -Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
2009/9/9 Lars Nooden larsnoo...@openoffice.org Cor Nouws wrote: ... So anything that might look as being related (even in distance) cannot be else then bad also, isn't it?! Hmm. It's called learning. Try it. FWIW Now it’s time for me to “log-of” this list, ´cause it’s to much One Man Show here right now, Mr. Nooden barks at every tree in the forest, all the parks around him… And no one else but him is right… pretty tired to read all those remarkable – *in my opinion, but hey. I’ve been wrong other times* – stupid comments from Lars. I thought this list was for helping users who needed help with OO.o, but apparently I was wrong. It seems that this list is a tool for be rude to other peoples… AND yes, Lars. I know your answer… It´s bullshit from me, it´s a quacking duck talking in this mail, but in my ears – and I´m pretty sure – in some others ears in this list.. your talk is also BS. I will pop in some other time, but for now... cheers and good luck with all bullshit and ducks and all the other insults coming from a particular way. // Per - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Per Joh wrote: Now it’s time for me to “log-of” this list Be sure to unsubscribe. Welcome back at a future date when you are ready to improve OOo or understand what 'learning curve' means: http://openoffice.blogs.com/openoffice/2006/02/microsoft_offic.html Regards, -Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Per Joh wrote: 2009/9/9 Lars Nooden larsnoo...@openoffice.org Cor Nouws wrote: ... So anything that might look as being related (even in distance) cannot be else then bad also, isn't it?! Hmm. It's called learning. Try it. FWIW Now it’s time for me to “log-of” this list, ´cause it’s to much One Man Show here right now, Mr. Nooden barks at every tree in the forest, all the parks around him… And no one else but him is right… pretty tired to read all those remarkable – *in my opinion, but hey. I’ve been wrong other times* – stupid comments from Lars. I thought this list was for helping users who needed help with OO.o, but apparently I was wrong. It seems that this list is a tool for be rude to other peoples… AND yes, Lars. I know your answer… It´s bullshit from me, it´s a quacking duck talking in this mail, but in my ears – and I´m pretty sure – in some others ears in this list.. your talk is also BS. I will pop in some other time, but for now... cheers and good luck with all bullshit and ducks and all the other insults coming from a particular way. // Per - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org +1 -- Gene Y. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Hi there! Cor Nouws wrote: Lars Nooden wrote (7-9-2009 10:01) If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... To make it easier for you, to see a bit of the latest prototype (0.16), a Dutch journalist was so friendly to publish this: http://webwereld.nl/gallery/63487/openoffice-kiest-ribbon-combinatie--foto-s-.html (Mind, #2 is not 0.16 - this slide shows the choices in the prototype-app) Nice publication indeed. Just a quick heads up to those who have so far seen only remarks or screenshots on mailinglists, blogs and websites. The prototype application can still be started via java webstart from within a browser using the following URL http://tools.services.openoffice.org/impressprototype/impressprototype.jnlp Prerequisite is that you have java 1.5 installed on your system. Probably much better to have a look yourself than depending on someone else opinion. Regards, Cor Regards, Bernd Eilers - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
2009/9/9 Bernd Eilers bernd.eil...@sun.com Hi there! Cor Nouws wrote: Lars Nooden wrote (7-9-2009 10:01) If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... To make it easier for you, to see a bit of the latest prototype (0.16), a Dutch journalist was so friendly to publish this: http://webwereld.nl/gallery/63487/openoffice-kiest-ribbon-combinatie--foto-s-.html (Mind, #2 is not 0.16 - this slide shows the choices in the prototype-app) Nice publication indeed. Just a quick heads up to those who have so far seen only remarks or screenshots on mailinglists, blogs and websites. The prototype application can still be started via java webstart from within a browser using the following URL http://tools.services.openoffice.org/impressprototype/impressprototype.jnlp Prerequisite is that you have java 1.5 installed on your system. Probably much better to have a look yourself than depending on someone else opinion. Regards, Cor Regards, Bernd Eilers Bernd, on the surface this prototype Impress looks fine to me ; that is to say, I would have no problem with such a GUI. But my experience with Impress in general is that it's difficult to get it to work right when, e g, opening pps files sent me as email attachments by others. For example, when I attempt to run a lovely pps presentation in homage to Vincent Van Gogh with the artist's paintings and music by Don Mclean in Impress (versions from OOo 3.0 to OOo-dev 3.2.0 m57 (Build:9422) , the audio doesn't work and I have to mouse-click or hit the space bar every time I wish to advance thé presentation. Consequently, if I want to enjoy this presentation the way it is meant to be enjoyed, I have to boot into a Windows OS and run it from Powerpoint. If I remember correctly, NoOp has posted on how one can modify the Impress settings to get the sound to work properly, but most users, I suspect, will - if they can afford it - instead choose MS Office and run presentations like this one «out of the box». Improvements in the GUI are not to be sneezed at, but improving functionality must, I think, be the developers' first priority, even if it's not always as much fun Henri
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Cor Nouws wrote: Lars Nooden wrote (7-9-2009 10:01) If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... To make it easier for you, to see a bit of the latest prototype (0.16), a Dutch journalist was so friendly to publish this: http://webwereld.nl/gallery/63487/openoffice-kiest-ribbon-combinatie--foto-s-.html Not so friendly. It's the ribbon all over again. UI work is needed, we know that without the survey. However, specifics are needed and this Microsoft-style solution-in-search-of-a-problem is bullshit. (Poo on your virgin ears) The survey points to no specifics: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:OOoUserSurvey2009_Final.ods In fact, there seems to be general satisfaction with the product and its components. How about a survey asking what is missing or what could be improved. the ribbon by any other name is still a failed attempt at contextual menus. Even assuming deIcaza shares some of the magic M$ pixie dust and we all become so stoned, stupid or soporiphic that everything seems fine with contextual menus, where will the processing cycles come from? OOo, IMHO, is not slow but it sure is not fast. User experience could be very much improved by removing or reducing the latency. There have been *lots* of suggestions over the years, especially in regards to performance. Adding slow stuff will not make OOo faster. Regards -Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
M Henri Day wrote: I should have nothing against an updating to the OOo GUI, but I can't help thinking that it's what's under the hood that is most important. Still, we - the developers - do have to keep in mind that new users to OOo are often going to have a background in MS Office 2007 and later, rather than in versions 1997 -2003 Oh bullshit again. Just because a small cluster of deIcaza types wants OOo to stop UI work, turn around and spend effort copying MSO simply because it's MSO, doesn't mean we should. Copying is stupid. Copying failure is more stupid. M$ has virtually made a trademark of suckitude. Don't go the route of trademark infringement. Quick quiz: Q: What is the goal of OOo? a) a deIcaza-style M$ love-in, dutifully copying every aspect of MSO b) providing a good productivity suite Updating the UI is very good idea. Updating without specific goals is a waste of resources. Updating it to copy a failure is not very nice to those who wish to use OOo. If the ideal is more general, improvement of the User Experience, then it may not be UI work that is needed so much as streamlining and modularization. Faster program == more ( enjoyable productive ). Regards -Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
2009/9/8 Lars Nooden larsnoo...@openoffice.org M Henri Day wrote: I should have nothing against an updating to the OOo GUI, but I can't help thinking that it's what's under the hood that is most important. Still, we - the developers - do have to keep in mind that new users to OOo are often going to have a background in MS Office 2007 and later, rather than in versions 1997 -2003 Oh bullshit again. Just because a small cluster of deIcaza types wants OOo to stop UI work, turn around and spend effort copying MSO simply because it's MSO, doesn't mean we should. Copying is stupid. Copying failure is more stupid. M$ has virtually made a trademark of suckitude. Don't go the route of trademark infringement. Quick quiz: Q: What is the goal of OOo? a) a deIcaza-style M$ love-in, dutifully copying every aspect of MSO b) providing a good productivity suite Updating the UI is very good idea. Updating without specific goals is a waste of resources. Updating it to copy a failure is not very nice to those who wish to use OOo. If the ideal is more general, improvement of the User Experience, then it may not be UI work that is needed so much as streamlining and modularization. Faster program == more ( enjoyable productive ). Regards -Lars Lars, before characterising your fellow users' posting as «bullshit», you might want to consider reading them more carefully. Nowhere in my post above do I suggest that the MS «ribbon» or other elements of their GUI should be copied - as I point out, it's what's under the hood - which to me, at least, includes such matters as the streamlining and modularisation you mention - that matters. When I read your statement to the effect that «Faster program == more ( enjoyable productive )», the impression I get is that we, in fact, are in substantial agreement. At the same time, given MS's present dominance of the field, we are going to have to take into account that many who will be considering whether or not to install OOo will have an MS Office background, a fact which should have consequences for the design of the former. You seem to have interpreted this as a suggestion that OOo «copy» MSO, but that was not at all my point, which was rather that we have to offer a *better*, more user-friendly alternative then the legacy maker, in which such aspects as speed and simplicity of use certainly play an important role. Again, from what you write, you seem to agree with this. These are, of course, the goals of any update - but to make them operational we must, as you point out, make them specific. Let us then discuss these specifics, instead of dismissing - and indeed, misrepresenting - others' opinions as «[u]pdating [OOo] to copy a failure». I, for one, would like to be able to change the language I'm inputting directly from the toolbar, instead of having to go via a menu. Perhaps if we confine ourselves to discussing such concrete matters, we'll not need to refer to each other in a manner which tends to wake opposition rather than cooperation Henri PS : Thanks for the remark about «delcaza types» - uninitiated as I am, I'm not sure I follow, but I choose to take it as a compliment !...
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Hi Lars, Lars Nooden wrote (8-9-2009 11:53) Not so friendly. It's the ribbon all over again. This really looks as if you have to wash your eyes. And/or try to learn that you cannot have truth on your side always. In your many (often useful) contributions, you show that you know for sure that everything that comes from Microsoft is bad. So anything that might look as being related (even in distance) cannot be else then bad also, isn't it?! Sigh :-( Cor -- Cor Nouws - nl.OpenOffice.org marketing contact - Community Contributor Representative in the Community Council Gevoel niet vrij te zijn? Zie www.nieuwsteversie.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
M Henri Day wrote: 2009/9/6 Mathias Bauer nospamfor...@gmx.de Lars Nooden wrote: Stop fucking around. EOD for me. All your contributions to this discussion where full of allegations, insinuations and now insults. Not my style. Ciao, Mathias -- Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS Please don't reply to nospamfor...@gmx.de. I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it. I find it sad when our most knowledgeable contributors lose their cool over an issue vital to the development of OOo. Let us try to deal with each other with the same respect and consideration we should like others to show us I'm not sure whom you are talking about. But let me put it this way: I'm reading a lot of mailing lists in our project (I didn't count them, but it must be around 16 or so). On most of them I'm just lurking, and of course I'm not reading each and every mail (that wouldn't leave me much time for working on the program ;-)). Casually I find some posts where I think I could give some help or information, so I jumped in here. I invested several hours to explain what I have seen as the problem that a part of Renaissance wants to address with what the prototype demonstrated. (Yes, Renaissance it not only about that, though it's an important part of it.) I not even tried to push people in any direction wrt. the prototype, I just explained, gave some background and asked people for qualified feedback (and the UX people working on Renaissance offer a lot of different ways to give it). I even tried to keep my personal taste out of the discussion (except when explicitly asked for it). I will continue to discuss with people that are interested in an objective discussion, but I don't see a reason to reply to insults (politician's talk, fucking around), though I had asked for objectivity not only once. And this comprises facts as well as style of discussion. Insults usually are a sign of helplessness, so you might ask why I care about that a lot, they at least prove that the insulters failed to prove that I'm wrong. The reason is simple: I lack the time for playing such games. I wasn't out for a flame war, I just wanted to give information. But it's not only about me. The UX people working on Renaissance have put their entire heart into the project and cared a lot for community involvement. There have been many public chats, blogs and mails about Renaissance and the UX people worked very hard to keep that going and collect and incorporate the feedback. They deserve a better treament than insinuations that they just would be out for aping the r*. I understand that some people are not pleased by what they saw in the prototype, but there is no reason to get so personal about that. I'm sure the UX team will listen to every qualified and reasonable feedback they receive. Regards, Mathias -- Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS Please don't reply to nospamfor...@gmx.de. I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Mathias Bauer wrote: ... They deserve a better treament than insinuations that they just would be out for aping the r*. Unless that is what they are doing. :P If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... -Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Lars Nooden wrote: Mathias Bauer wrote: ... They deserve a better treament than insinuations that they just would be out for aping the r*. Unless that is what they are doing. :P If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... -Lars But what if it sings like a nightingale? We haven't heard it yet, the prototype was clearly not the finished voice or anywhere close, just a way to get feedback. The main issues seem to be use of screen real estate (which should be kept to a minimum) and the ability to turn it off and use the old menu structure easily, and Mathias has clearly been pushing those issues himself. I think most of us start off with a serious mistrust for anything that attempts to predict what we want (a la Clippy and its kin), because it's *so* much easier to do wrong than right. But even Ribbon has its avid fans (I'm not one of them!), and anything that reduces the learning curve for newbies, and for experienced users trying a new or infrequently used capability, can be a serious advantage for OOo in the market. So I'm willing to wait and see. Should be a lot of fun trying to write the help and other documentation, though! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Barbara Duprey wrote: Lars Nooden wrote: Mathias Bauer wrote: ... They deserve a better treament than insinuations that they just would be out for aping the r*. Unless that is what they are doing. :P If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... -Lars But what if it sings like a nightingale? We haven't heard it yet, the prototype was clearly not the finished voice or anywhere close, just a way to get feedback. The main issues seem to be use of screen real estate (which should be kept to a minimum) and the ability to turn it off and use the old menu structure easily, and Mathias has clearly been pushing those issues himself. I think most of us start off with a serious mistrust for anything that attempts to predict what we want (a la Clippy and its kin), because it's *so* much easier to do wrong than right. But even Ribbon has its avid fans (I'm not one of them!), and anything that reduces the learning curve for newbies, and for experienced users trying a new or infrequently used capability, can be a serious advantage for OOo in the market. So I'm willing to wait and see. Should be a lot of fun trying to write the help and other documentation, though! Well I must say there is one aspect where I like the analogy with the duck. Because there is that fairytale of the ugly duck which than later turned out to have grown up and was than realizing that it wasn´t an ugly duck but a beautiful swan. Thus I would like to encourage everyone to look forward into the future and see what we all could do to enhance the UserInterface of OOo and to also have a deeper look into the prototype than only applying prejudice of ugly duckniness. There are more aspects tested in the prototype than you might have seen with a first and quick only look onto it. For example there is the aspect of a different SlideSorterView which includes a live-editing-feature shown where also dragdrop of objects between the slides is possible in this mode and than there is the aspect of a different visualisation and user interaction for what is called Masterpages in Impress. Kind regards, Bernd Eilers - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Lars Nooden wrote (7-9-2009 10:01) If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... To make it easier for you, to see a bit of the latest prototype (0.16), a Dutch journalist was so friendly to publish this: http://webwereld.nl/gallery/63487/openoffice-kiest-ribbon-combinatie--foto-s-.html (Mind, #2 is not 0.16 - this slide shows the choices in the prototype-app) Regards, Cor -- Cor Nouws - nl.OpenOffice.org marketing contact - Community Contributor Representative in the Community Council Gevoel niet vrij te zijn? Zie www.nieuwsteversie.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
2009/9/7 Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl Lars Nooden wrote (7-9-2009 10:01) If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ... To make it easier for you, to see a bit of the latest prototype (0.16), a Dutch journalist was so friendly to publish this: http://webwereld.nl/gallery/63487/openoffice-kiest-ribbon-combinatie--foto-s-.html (Mind, #2 is not 0.16 - this slide shows the choices in the prototype-app) Regards, Cor -- Cor Nouws I should have nothing against an updating to the OOo GUI, but I can't help thinking that it's what's under the hood that is most important. Still, we - the developers - do have to keep in mind that new users to OOo are often going to have a background in MS Office 2007 and later, rather than in versions 1997 -2003 Henri
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Mathias Bauer wrote (6-9-2009 22:58) Thanks, finally someone understood what I meant. [...] Well, I guess it's not that bad. There must be some, ehh, much more who understand ;-) Cor -- Cor Nouws - nl.OpenOffice.org marketing contact - Community Contributor Representative in the Community Council Gevoel niet vrij te zijn? Zie www.nieuwsteversie.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
2009/9/6 Mathias Bauer nospamfor...@gmx.de Lars Nooden wrote: Stop fucking around. EOD for me. All your contributions to this discussion where full of allegations, insinuations and now insults. Not my style. Ciao, Mathias -- Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS Please don't reply to nospamfor...@gmx.de. I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it. I find it sad when our most knowledgeable contributors lose their cool over an issue vital to the development of OOo. Let us try to deal with each other with the same respect and consideration we should like others to show us Henri
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Cor Nouws wrote: Hi Lars, Lars Nooden wrote (4-9-2009 14:52) It is even more so to pretend that calling the ribbon by another name will make everything ok. If you mean this text by Matthias: Mathias Bauer wrote (3-9-2009 10:34) Dotan Cohen wrote: What exactly are the arguments against the Microsoft Ribbon? If we know what the currently-perceived negative connotations of the Ribbon design are, then the OOo Ribbon could be engineered to avoid those pitfalls. I think that this is more or less what I am trying to tell also. But to avoid the Pavlovian response that the word ribbon seems to create, I would like to use a different wording: How can we create a context sensitive user interface that does not have what people dislike in the ribbon? ... then you really misunderstand him. It is about not using ribbon, in order to be able to look at and talk about facts, before people get blinded by a word alone, which would make it very hard to come to any logic conclusion (regardless in which direction that might be). Thanks, finally someone understood what I meant. Your words explain it even better than mine. If people dislike what they see coming (or think what will coming) with our prototype, I would like to hear what exactly they dislike - and I'm sure the UX team will like to hear that even more! For exactly this reason a lot of possible ways to collect feedback exist. But again: just saying it sucks or it's bad because it looks like the r* is not sufficient to make a point. Regards, Mathias -- Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS Please don't reply to nospamfor...@gmx.de. I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Lars Nooden wrote: Stop fucking around. EOD for me. All your contributions to this discussion where full of allegations, insinuations and now insults. Not my style. Ciao, Mathias -- Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS Please don't reply to nospamfor...@gmx.de. I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
James E. Lang wrote: Vulgarities are neither welcome nor useful on this list (IMNSHO). Get over it. Stronger ones are unfortunately not available and the ones available do severely understate the stupidity and harm of the proposal / troll to imitate the ribbon. It's quite vulgar propose to do a 180 with the UI and imitate the failure known as the ribbon. It is even more so to pretend that calling the ribbon by another name will make everything ok. -Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Hi Lars, Lars Nooden wrote (4-9-2009 14:52) It is even more so to pretend that calling the ribbon by another name will make everything ok. If you mean this text by Matthias: Mathias Bauer wrote (3-9-2009 10:34) Dotan Cohen wrote: What exactly are the arguments against the Microsoft Ribbon? If we know what the currently-perceived negative connotations of the Ribbon design are, then the OOo Ribbon could be engineered to avoid those pitfalls. I think that this is more or less what I am trying to tell also. But to avoid the Pavlovian response that the word ribbon seems to create, I would like to use a different wording: How can we create a context sensitive user interface that does not have what people dislike in the ribbon? ... then you really misunderstand him. It is about not using ribbon, in order to be able to look at and talk about facts, before people get blinded by a word alone, which would make it very hard to come to any logic conclusion (regardless in which direction that might be). Regards, Cor -- Cor Nouws - nl.OpenOffice.org marketing contact - Community Contributor Representative in the Community Council Gevoel niet vrij te zijn? Zie www.nieuwsteversie.nl - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
On Thu, Sep 03, 2009 at 07:43:10PM -0700, James E. Lang wrote: Vulgarities are neither welcome nor useful on this list (IMNSHO). Don't let the door hit you in your overly delicate sensibilities on your way out. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Lars Nooden wrote: Mathias Bauer wrote: I can even imagine a much simpler approach: just keep the old UI as an option and use usage tracking to find out how many users switch to it. Studies for the courts found in 1996 that even back then 60% kept the default settings. By now it's close to 100%. I've tried paying people to customize Xfce and KDE UIs. It's just not in popular culture anymore do to more than whine about defaults. Well, we are not talking about whether people use settings, we are talking about *the* setting. If a default setting creates so much pain as people think, users will want to know how to change it and they will find out how to change it. Of course it's necessary to take the facts mentioned by you into account (and it's backed up by results from the Microsoft research that IIRC less than 10% of their user base use customization at all). So if e.g. 20-30% of the user base (don't nail me down on exact numbers now) would change the default of something it would be a clear sign that something is wrong (IMHO). Or viewed from the other side: that means that saying 70% of our users use the default, so it must be right is self-deception as long as you don't have a clear sign that those 70% have chosen the default by intent. 1) Rather than find out how many change it, find those who *do* change it and find out how *they* change it and then study why. Yes, but if you have to focus your work it's first necessary to get some numbers about how many people do that at all. 5) Have a taser charged and ready for anyone proposing to copy the failure known as the ribbon. Ditto for vague, nebulous, or diplomatic speech that could be interpreted as such. Sorry, but that is nonsense. Could be interpreted as such is an excuse to suppress every contribution that you don't like by alleging it falls into that category. Or explained in a Pythonesque way: If you want to throw stones on someone, allege he has said Jehova! You have modernized that concept by using a taser instead of throwing stones, but in fact it's the same. 6) Interview experienced trainers. I can propose at least two. 7) Bring in real HCI specialists to do a) time-motion studies, including eye-tracking. Use as subjects educated people *who've never used a computer before* to gather data. Growing markets have lots. Then bring in novices and power users. Compare and analyse. etc. The interesting part is that Microsoft did exactly all that (except no. 5 of course ;-)). And the result is not what you like and it's also not what I like. So there are some more things to consider. I will talk about that in another mail. I'm very open to improving the UI, but only in the context of greater efficiency. Change for the sake of change is not good either. Agreed. I hope you don't want to say that Renaissance is about the latter. I don't want to but, of necessity, have to. Work out a scientific approach, and the assessment can change. In the mean time, #5 above is probably the most valuable in the near term. Proof by allegation. IMHO it is pretty clear that our current UI needs a change, Of course. However, survival of the fittest random changes doesn't really work in a population of one program. Yes, but I can't see where this concept is applied. Collecting feedback for an applied change isn't making random changes and see which survives. It's just the realization that absolute truth can be achieved rarely (if at all) and that it's never a bad idea to plan for the chance that you have made a mistake. Regards, Mathias -- Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS Please don't reply to nospamfor...@gmx.de. I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Mathias Bauer wrote: Lars Nooden wrote: Mathias Bauer wrote: I can even imagine a much simpler approach: just keep the old UI as an option and use usage tracking to find out how many users switch to it. Studies for the courts found in 1996 that even back then 60% kept the default settings. By now it's close to 100%. I've tried paying people to customize Xfce and KDE UIs. It's just not in popular culture anymore do to more than whine about defaults. Well, we are not talking about whether people use settings, we are talking about *the* setting. Yes we are. And nearly 100% won't change the default. ... If a default setting creates so much pain as people think, users will want to know how to change it and they will find out how to change it. No. Only some will. Most will simply look for a different product. I've tried this with several groups of 18-25 year olds. People 40 and up are generally wanting to modify the settings but indoctrinated into a fear of 'breaking' the computer or the belief that modification is somehow against rules or even illegal. Really. So getting useful UI feedback is a trick. Of course it's necessary to take the facts mentioned by you into account (and it's backed up by results from the Microsoft research Stop fucking around. If you like them so much go fucking work there and leave this list in peace. The one good thing the brand does is it flags those who praise it as not knowing their own ass from a hole in the ground. Yes, but if you have to focus your work it's first necessary to get some numbers about how many people do that at all. Agreed. However, see my original point about the relevance of how many customize. 5) Have a taser charged and ready for anyone proposing to copy the failure known as the ribbon. Ditto for vague, nebulous, or diplomatic speech that could be interpreted as such. Sorry, but that is nonsense. Could be interpreted as such is an excuse to suppress every contribution that you don't like by alleging it falls into that category. Copying a failure like the ribbon is still copying a failure like the ribbon no matter what new names it has. The interesting part is that Microsoft did exactly all that (except no. 5 of course ;-)). And the result is not what you like and it's also not what I like. Which goes back to the point that the company fails epically even on mundane tasks. I would posit that there is no competent research there and, again, if you like them so much go fucking work there and leave this list in peace. Seeing the origin of said research should be enough to flag it as having been done by those who effectively can't find their own ass with both hands. Going to Microsoft for research on anything is about as clever as going to Phillip-Morris or RJR-Reynolds for lung cancer research. IMHO it is pretty clear that our current UI needs a change, Of course. However, survival of the fittest random changes doesn't really work in a population of one program. Yes, but I can't see where this concept is applied. Collecting feedback for an applied change isn't making random changes and see which survives. It's just the realization that absolute truth can be achieved rarely (if at all) and that it's never a bad idea to plan for the chance that you have made a mistake. Which sounds like an approach using random changes and trying to collect the least unfit of each iteration. -Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Mathias Bauer wrote: I think that this is more or less what I am trying to tell also. But to avoid the Pavlovian response that the word ribbon seems to create, I would like to use a different wording: Again, see my point from the previous message: Lars Nooden wrote: Copying a failure like the ribbon is still copying a failure like the ribbon no matter what new names it has. -Lars - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] UI work (Re: [users] Petition against OOo Renaissance)
Vulgarities are neither welcome nor useful on this list (IMNSHO). -- Jim --On Thursday, September 03, 2009 12:10:27 PM +0300 Lars Nooden larsnoo...@openoffice.org wrote: - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
