[WSG] A little OT
I'm back from my first vacation this year ( Ill be going again soon ) and I'm glad to see the list got along just find without me, so I'll sit down and read all 544 WSG messages (14 days worth ) But don't expect any replies because by now they are old news. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS ???
Brian
I don't know what platform your talking about but I tried the following
code in both IE and Moz on Mac and the code works in both as you would
expect. I changed width to 90% and added a height so I could see it
better. Works fine on Mac.
.main_page
{
width:90% !important;
height:90% !important;
background-color:#d6aef1;
border-right: 1px solid #609;
border-left: 1px solid #609;
border-bottom: 1px solid #609;
padding:4px;
}
Hope this helps
Leo
On Friday, April 16, 2004, at 10:39 AM, theGrafixGuy wrote:
CSS
I am having a bit of an issue with Mozilla and IE:
.main_page
{
width:100% !important;
background-color:#d6aef1;
border-right:1px solid #609;
border-left:1px solid #609;
border-bottom:1px solid #609;
padding:4px;
}
Does what I need it too in IE: However to do what I want it to do in
Mozilla, I need the following
.main_page
{
width:100% !important;
background-color:#d6aef1;
border: 1px solid #609;
padding:4px;
}
My question is how do I get IE to see what I want it to and Mozilla to
ignore the IE???
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Re: [WSG] Trimming the fat from CSS
Nick You know what they say... there's anal and then there's anal ;-). I've been programming most of my life and can never figure out these guys that do this. They'll shrink every K they can find white and comments too. But they usually are the same ones that make all the syntax errors and can't remember or find what they did a month ago. Do they ever realize that machines never look at that stuff, and they do their thing at pico speeds. How many pico seconds are there in 100 or so semicolons? Besides machine code speed, then there's required block (fat32 HFS+) and packet size error correction, etc etc etc etc.. blah blah blah Oh and Nick I never do this. As a human, I like code readable. It's worth the extra 5k. Leo On Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 02:06 AM, Nick Lo wrote: Does everyone else on the list do this? For the sake of 11k that is cached on the first page load it seems a little drastic. I do programming work as well as markup and the indentation/formatting of the code is very important in producing readable code. If it was only me looking at the CSS then fine, but in a team situation producing CSS formatted like this could make human reading a lot harder and thus slow production time. I can understand if you use TopStyle to do this automatically but I just thought a note of caution/consideration to others reading this that may feel it's a thing all good CSS developers must do. Personally I'd prefer to leave my CSS formatted as is and shave the k's off images used, etc. Then if I need to hand the stylesheets over to someone they are more usable. Nick Anyway as for your CSS, you have a lot of fat that can be trimmed from that as well (no need to repeat the font families if ya put them in the body style) You do not need the ; after the last attribute in each style (You can remove the returns and have your list go horizontal instead of vertical) Once all done remove all spaces between the commas and the semi-colons and remove the rest of the returns and have one LONG line all of these together will trim A LOT off the size of the stylesheet mine by itself in a editing state with comments is over 18k but the version I put on line is under 7k. It dont look as pretty when it is opened and is harder to read by a human, but it is a smaller file and reads faster by a machine. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Trimming the fat from CSS
Jason An even better question is : What kind of irony is it when someone who joins an open standards group considers practicing such anti-open-standards technique? ;-) Leo On Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 02:34 AM, Jason Turnbull wrote: Nick Lo wrote: Does everyone else on the list do this? For the sake of 11k that is cached on the first page load it seems a little drastic I would agree its not going to save much, having readable code is much more important, I wonder if people who do this also remove all spaces/tabs within the html code Jason * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Trimming the fat from CSS
On Thursday, April 15, 2004, at 03:20 AM, theGrafixGuy wrote: I HATE bloat You know Brian, for a person who hates bloat, you sure are full of it. ;-) lol Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash...
James Following this tread, reading the satay article, and looking up the XHTML 1.0 spec for the object tag, it seems to me, that I could put all this code inside an external CSS. My questions are [1] am I right? [2] would keeping the flash code out of the HTML using id's on the object element allow strict validation, since all major browsers do somewhat support object? [3] or just use Drew Mclellan's solution? Also I ask the same confirmation question as P. Leo On Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 07:43 AM, James Ellis wrote: Hi Looking at the code (from source URL below) object classid=clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-44455354 codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/ swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0 width=300 height=120 param name=movie value=http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/ triggerpages_mmcom/flash.swfparam name=quality value=high param name=bgcolor value=#FF !--[if !IE] -- object data=http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/triggerpages_mmcom/ flash.swf width=300 height=120 type=application/x-shockwave-flash param name=quality value=high param name=bgcolor value=#FF param name=pluginurl value=http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer; FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this). /object !-- [endif]-- /object It's evident there are two tags running - one for ActiveX browsers (i.e IE on Win32) devices and the other for every other browser. The idea behind removing the embed tag (a proprietary Netscape tag for NS4 and under) was to have only 1 tag set for every user agent. Drew Mclellan's Flash Satay on A List Apart does this to good effect.. In the code above we have the ActiveX clsid for IE, the other version has the W3C recommended way to do it - this seems to be the sticking point for certain versions of IE5.x that will display a textarea instead of your object. I did some work on this when I was looking at really pushing Flash for some work I was doing and wanted to adhere to the standards. I couldn't actually reproduce this bug - Russ told me once that he and Rose didn't reproduce it either in their testing (my testing was on IE5.5 on Win ME (the platform from hell). This implementation doesn't really solve the tag soup problem - it uses propietrary IE conditionals instead of proprietary Netscape tags does IE for other versions of Windows (devices for instance) ignore the conditionals and attempt to display two objects? Something that IE handles really well ;D As for the streaming of Flash, modularising the movie is the solution to this and probably should be implemented on every Flash app, instead of having one movie do everything. It seems to be a layover from the bad old days of loading 600kbthats a topic for another list , tho', but it's really easy to do and helps out with app updates, scalability no end. HTH James Chris Bentley wrote: The imitable Ian Hickson has some valid HTML to embed Macromedia Flash files using only the OBJECT tag... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2004Apr/0071.html Cheers, chris. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Horizontal floated list problems
Chris From what I can see your top nav is taking the width of its container. You need to define a width for the buttons,either individually or all the same size, and float them like you do in the sub nav. Then IE will play and so will Opera. Safari is s forgiving and displays your page as you expect. Leo On Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 01:09 PM, Christopher Dearing wrote: Hey, gang! I a having a bit of a problem with a horizontal menu. It seems that IE 5.2 and Opera 6.0 on the Mac need some sort of width restriction. If anyone could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it. http://www.woodschurch.org/index.php CSS: http://www.woodschurch.org/styles/default.css TIA, Chris www.razoredweb.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Horizontal floated list problems
Chris This is a very simple design to layout and you shouldn't be having any problems on those Mac browsers. I have used the same basic nav and it works in them. I'd check my code carefully for a missing semicolon or syntax error. These links below show how use list for nav and quell the IE bug blues. http://css.maxdesign.com.au/index.htm http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html http://www.macedition.com/cb/ie5macbugs/index.html Leo On Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 05:04 PM, Christopher Dearing wrote: Leo, The topnav and subnav are basically the same idea. I added a width of about 7em to the li which fixed the problems in IE/Mac and Opera 6/Mac, but then in FireFox the words of the about button overflowed. Another problem I have found with the page is that the #063 background on the #header div gets ignored on AOL7 and IE5.5 on Win2k. I have included the relevant screenshots below. http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=57737 Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Leo J. O'Campo Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Horizontal floated list problems Chris From what I can see your top nav is taking the width of its container. You need to define a width for the buttons,either individually or all the same size, and float them like you do in the sub nav. Then IE will play and so will Opera. Safari is s forgiving and displays your page as you expect. Leo On Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 01:09 PM, Christopher Dearing wrote: Hey, gang! I a having a bit of a problem with a horizontal menu. It seems that IE 5.2 and Opera 6.0 on the Mac need some sort of width restriction. If anyone could shed some light on this, I would appreciate it. http://www.woodschurch.org/index.php CSS: http://www.woodschurch.org/styles/default.css TIA, Chris www.razoredweb.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS problem
Veine I do this all the time in Mac. It looks as though your page is working now with it in Mac IE5.2. It's all about floating and sizing it properly. All Mac IE bugs are usually easy to fix. For the future IMO you should design the layout using colored boxes and dummy text until you know its right, bug fixes and all, and then add your content. This way the content won't be getting in your way. Leo Can someone take a look at this page: http://vikberg.net/IAMU Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Guidelines reminder - attachments/caps
Lighten up David... you'll give yourself sunspots ;-). Leo On Friday, April 9, 2004, at 06:41 PM, David wrote: ...Sorry everyone if this is offpoint just had to get that off my chest! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS problem
Veine
Your left col div is containing your center div you should close the
the left div before you open the center div ...
e.g
div class=leftcolleftcol-content/div
div class=centercenter-content/div
and not
div class=leftcolleftcol-content
div class=centercenter-content/div
/div
as you have it now
Leo
On Thursday, April 8, 2004, at 06:26 AM, Veine K Vikberg wrote:
Will;
Thanks for the suggestion, I did it and it seems to add a little to
separate in IE6 WinXP Home at least, however, in NS (Moz RC1) it does
not,... I am running out of ideas here.
As for the suggestion, note taken and should probably not be h4's but
I was thinking search engine work ahead of time so to speak, as it
seems to be indexing way more h4's then lists, I will probably change
this.
Any other suggestion to see if I can get it to separate?
At 01:23 PM 4/8/2004 -0400, you wrote:
To answer your question directly, add a right margin to your h4 tags
in your
style sheet:
H4 {margin-right: 10px;}
To answer your question with a suggestion, don't use h4's for your nav
links. Rather, use an unordered list to gain better control over
their
display and establish better semantics in your markup:
ul
lilink 1/li
lilink2/li
/ul
For a great example, read A List Apart's Taming Lists at
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/taminglists/
Will Chatham
oOo
www.willchatham.com
---
Can someone take a look at this page:
http://vikberg.net/IAMU
Veine K Vikberg
http://www.vikberg.net
Professional Web Guru
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Re: [WSG] Relative Fonts
Relative font sizes ruin good design. Vector based graphics and text are the future of good screen design. The whole point is to be relative in your units so the layout design can look the same across different resolutions. If a user needs to increase or decrease the text size then the layout should increase or decrease proportionally. Now that is truly good design. Flash does this now and it can be using standards based CSS too. It's just a lot harder. Think about it. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Re: IE with Gecko Was: Relative Fonts
Maybe we as a standard based community should knock on $MS's door and shout I'm mad as hell and I'm not going take it anymore. Leo On Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 12:44 AM, Sven Jacobs wrote: I was thinking to put such news (IE 6.1 will use Gecko) on my private site as an aprils fool =) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Re: IE with Gecko Was: Relative Fonts
Pffft. A bunch of web standards geeks like us (no matter how large, it's still just a tiny fraction of the entire web community) will have no impact whatsoever on MS's plans in regards to IE. Justin... If everyone thought that way there would never be progress. Luckily Apple inc didn't with their 5% market share and change the whole computer market with technologies such as firewire, USB (by totally adopting it), and many others. The new browser in the next generation MS OS will be fully integrated. I can't imagine MS spending any time on improving IE when they (and us) know it's headed for the scrap heap. Well I hope for their sake they get the standards right because if they don't, they'll loose market share. People do their like choices. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] bar graph with html 4.01 strict + css
Adam The first problem I'm trying to tackle so far is that the second part to the graph doesn't reflect the width it's supposed to. Use a containment box so that your graph will be a percentage of the 100% width of the containment box. The second problem is that it probably won't scale too well when one tries to increase text sizes. Using percentages on a fixed container should not involve size as long as you leave enough space for text growth in your layout design. The third and final problem is that several themes I'm planning on using it with may want to have different width so it needs to be fairly fluidic. I tried using percentages with this but I got no where. The solution is the same as the second problem Hope this helps Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Failure to load under IE and Opera
Randall Remove the xml prologue [?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8?] It's not required and IE chokes on it. Leo On Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 03:47 AM, Randall Potter wrote: I'm having an issue where the site that I'm working on validates as xhtml-strict and looks fine under Gecko and KHTML based browsers but, fails to load in IE, Opera, and dillo. I would much appreciate it if someone could help me out here and tell me what I'm missing. http://www.aegisconsulting.org/proof Thank you in advance, Randall Potter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Impressive CSS Example
On Saturday, April 3, 2004, at 07:09 AM, Darian Cabot wrote: (This dude has way too much time) ditto... but a very nice piece of CSS art. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
My reply didn't show the full quote... so here it is for those who will accuse me of taking it out of context. Art is best left to people that have a knack for it. But again, anyone can learn to program. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Nick I stand corrected... As I am a Mac user, where things are made to standards, I often forget that MSIE doesn't no how to render standards. ;-) ...just kidding. But we as a developer web standards community should proactively boycott MSIE. Leo On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 09:07 PM, Nick Cowie wrote: Seriously there is a lot you can do, but it will not work in IE without javascript. And seeing most people use IE, you might as well use javascript. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
P Your right... I blew that one in the details. Leo On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 09:14 PM, P.H.Lauke wrote: but that doesn't solve the original problem as far as I understood it. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
Mike I think it would be more useful if it had a color picker along with the hex number input. Using hex number input alone doesn't work for those who don't know the hex numbers they need or would like to browser color schemes. I have been using hex values for color long before the web existed and I still don't remember which values belong to what colors. I use a donationware program called iColors on the Mac and it is a great little single purpose color app but I'm not sure if it's available on the PC. It allows you to select any pixel on the screen in any app and will show you the color and hex value. Leo On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 01:24 AM, Michael Kear wrote: For my own benefit, I have been developing a colour schemer tool, and Ive put it on my web site for others to use, comment about, help me improve. There are lots of colour development tools around, I know, but I got into doing my own because all the tools I have known about use javascript and the scheme cant be saved. For example theres a great one at http://www.pixy.cz/apps/barvy/index-en.html but if you click anywhere on the page, or try to cut and paste the colour numbers, it changes the scheme and you cant get back again easily. The only way to record the scheme you work on so hard, is to get a pen and paper and write down all the colour numbers. So I started developing my own, so I can produce a chart for each site Im working on with the colours Ive decided on for the site listed out. Ive put it on my web site and Id really appreciate if you could go have a look, and let me know if theres any way I can make it more useful, any features I should add. (One feature Im going to add is to have it email the resulting plan to you when you click a button, so you have a chart to use as a reference). http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ is the address. (note the Australian COLOUR not the American COLOR) Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Patrick First PLEASE do not display my email address to the open list. Thank you. *cough* accessibility *cough* Unless there is a reason I am not thinking of, I'd think people who want accessibility would keep javascript enabled. Also don't forget that in some instances the specific setup/capabilities of machines is not up to the individual users (e.g. large corporates with draconian IT departments) Javascript has been around for a long long time, so I doubt there are many draconian IT departments not using it. And if they aren't... well my comment stands. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Safari 1 2 side-by-side? (a little OT)
Justin I'm not surprised that Safari (Jag) runs in Safari (Pan) because generally Safari is forward compatible software. What did surprise most of us loyal Mac users was that Safari 1.2 (Pan) wouldn't run in Jaguar. I use OS9/Jag/Pan each on their own disk drive in the same machine. Leo On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 09:02 PM, Justin French wrote: Just upgraded to OS X 10.3 from 10.2 last night, and whilst some of the new features in Safari are nice, I still need the old version 1.0 and/or 1.1 for testing purposes, since there were quite a lot of issues. I copied across the 1.0 app from my back-up, renamed it Safari 1, and placed it in my applications folder. It opened fine, called itself 1.0x in the about menu, but the rendering engine appears to be Safari 1.2's, because numerous bugs I knew in 1.0 aren't there now (like ALA suckerfish dropdowns). Has anyone seen an article on this or managed to have Safari 1.0/1.1/1.2 running side-by-side on one system? PS: for anyone holding off on upgrading to Panther, I can highly recommend it -- I have a feeling Exposé alone will be worth the AU$229.00 in productivity gains very shortly. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Justin To say that anyone concerned with accessibility should have JavaScript enabled **utterly misses the point**. Accessibility is about providing access to the content for the widest possible number of users, regardless of how they're accessing it. Hmm.. well Justin your missing my point. I did not use those words. My point was if a page was designed for JavaScript to be used, then disabling it, is to your own disadvantage. A perfect example is the steady increase of browsers and tools for mobile phones and PDAs... most of them come without javascript (or at least a very limited subset), Your perfect PDA example is why we use alternative stylesheets to offer content to alternative media. Web standards advocate that content be separate for presentation and I'd proactively add navigation to that. By providing content in a way that can only be accessed with a javascript enabled web browser, you're making you content inaccessible to all users. A point I have never personally disagreed with. In fact I never use Javascript for anything when CSS or server side PHP can do the same thing. You may not care, but *that* is accessibility. I don't know where this came from... Justin I am physically disabled and as a person with disabilities, I ALWAYS care about accessibility and not just on web pages. Your mouseover-javascript-piece-of-magic-widget probably requires the fluid use of a mouse (which ignores the fact that not every one has perfect motor skills), probably has tiny fonts that break the layout when enlarged for visually impaired users, etc. This is just outright insulting to me because I don't use JavaScript for menus, so it's not mine your talking about, and personally I think the size of the type on this email or at most accessibility oriented web sites, is way too small. ;-) Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Show/hide layers without javascript (was: [WSG] How to do some things)
Patrick It can be done in CSS by toggling the display visibility with the a:hover and positioning. Leo On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 04:41 PM, P.H.Lauke wrote: What you describe can only be achieved with javascript, if you want to avoid server calls and do it all in a single document...the page needs to keep track of which link has been pressed, for instance...something that CSS is not meant for... Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster University of Salford www.salford.ac.uk winmail.dat * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Trimming the fat
Brian Trimming excess fat off of the code does add up over time - both in storage and in transfer/bandwidth I totally agree with everything your saying. I too remove the comments and redundant code before uploading a site. I save a commented version, as a backup copy, so I or someone else can see what was done, a year from now. granted, I'll admit... That response was finite and only applied to that one situation of removing a font family for a single generic font in a single stylesheet. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Navigation menu working in all but IE
Brian It works fine in IE5.2.2 Mac Leo Working on a navigation menu and it works great in everything BUT IE. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding styles message to certain browsers
Jamie the main topic here is about - To hide OR not to hide stylesheets I know what the topic is... While I agree with hiding stylesheet for the few older browsers still out there, because their owners refuse to use the better alternatives available, it is different for IE5 Mac users, because we don't have available choices. The last MSIE update was IE5.2.2 and there may not be others according to reputable Mac sources. On the Mac, many users have to use IE5 for banking, stocks, etc (esp. the many OS 9er's that can't use Safari at all) because of the mentality that PCs are the dominant platform and there isn't any rush for site developers to fix their code for the likes of Safari or other Mac capable browser. Now granted... I understand this Mac problem is getting better everyday, but the mentality of not fixing code (which IMHO is the same as shutting out styles for IEMac5 users... who would not want styles when their hardware is capable of it) only reinforces the prejudice AND it is prejudice when simple fixes ARE available to the site designer. Never once did I mention anything about shutting down the whole Mac computer platform Don't take it personal. It's just a discussion. ;-) If you were a Mac user only and you read that piece, my expressed sentiments would jump out at you from between the lines. Leo
Re: [WSG] Hiding styles message to certain browsers
David Thank you, my thoughts exactly! That is the point of this discussion tread. MSIE has interpreted the standards to suit their priorities and just because they hold the larger market share (on the PC), their getting away with it. We as developers, should not take it laying down or avoid the problem like it doesn't exist. The WSG group is here to help us find workarounds for browsers that poorly or wrongly implement the standards (e.g. IE), but it's mission is to fix the problem by proactively advocating web standards. Leo On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 10:50 AM, David McDonald wrote: From my perspective, the whole point of coding to standards means that it doesn't matter what browser the user is viewing your site in - they should be able to read your content regardless. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding styles message to certain browsers
What I need is some guidance in the situation I am facing now. Should I hide the stylesheet until I fix the site for Mac IE or should I just let it be? Best person to answer would be a Mac user I reckon :) Jamie The immediate solution for making everyone happy is checking the user agent for IE5 Mac (i.e. assuming your Mac problem is only in IE) with a script. Once IE5 Mac is isolated, you serve it a simpler stylesheet that doesn't exhibit the bugs, but still shows the basic design. This way you will have time to work out the bugs without shutting anyone out from your message. You can reinstate full style when your design works acceptable on the platform. If you stay away from pixel precise widths in your positioning, and understand how your design will flow (inline or block) according to the CSS containment hierarchy along with its inheritance, IE's bugs can be isolated much easier, and IE will behave better with floats and lists. My advise is to create the layout structure in colored boxes using no borders, margins, padding, or style until you markup the positioning. If you send me the URLs for the site and CSS, I would be happy to help you find and markup a bug free stylesheet for the Mac. Leo
Re: [WSG] Auto Width
Sam You to do two thing first dump the xml prologue and second encase the a elements as an inline list. Although a setting of does auto means no width the links are be rendered as block elements due to spacing and crs in your html. Leo On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 11:56 PM, Sam Walker wrote: setting of width:auto should make the box only large enough to contain it's elements * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Drop Caps
Make a class that will position and size according to line height and then use a span element. That's one way, but I'm sure there is a more standard way this is done. Anyone? Leo On Wednesday, March 24, 2004, at 04:22 PM, theGrafixGuy wrote: Anyone have ideas on how to do a drop cap in CSS? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Browser Stats - What a shock!
Brian I can tell you what accounts for the low market share stats. It's confounding variables. If you look for apples in a peach tree you'd get low market share. Now survey major corporations and NN's market share will rise up the bell curve. No offense to Darian, but his website isn't representative of browser market share. Leo On Wednesday, March 24, 2004, at 07:32 PM, theGrafixGuy wrote: I just downloaded the latest NS 7.01 and it is nothing more than Mozilla with NS's skin on it, even my installed Mozilla plug-ins are present in NS. But that doesn't explain the complete loss of market share! Brian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 3:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser Stats - What a shock! Wow what the hell happened to NS??!! Going by those figures I should be focassing my attention to Mozilla compatability. Thanks for the stats. Darian I actually decided to look in detail at my logs over the past month after people brought up the Browser compatibility issues: This is what I have for my site www.thegrafixguy.com and I get an average of 1 unique visitors a month. MSIE all versions 74.9% Netscape 1.8% (Man they Seriously lost the Browser War) Mozilla 11.7% Safari 4.4% Opera 0.4% FireBird 0.2% Konqueror 0.1% Multizilla (1 visit) Lynx (1 Visit) Two things here surprised me here - the death of Netscape in regards to popularity - last year, atleast Netscape was in the double digits, and also a few hits with MSIE 7.01 which I have not been able to find myself Though I must say for the heck of it, I downloaded Lynx and Installed it and took a look at my own site - It was suprising to see what was not there despite the lack of images and on the same hand surprising as to what is there. I can see that I have some work to do in that regard! Anyway, cheers, hope someone find the figures above interesting as I did. Brian * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Browser Stats - What a shock!
Hi Kym I made the mistake thinking the numbers came from just Darian's site or was i Brian's. But I see now, that you got the numbers from a much larger sample pool. I stand corrected, My point was that sample size and where it came from makes all the difference in the world of statistics. Leo On Wednesday, March 24, 2004, at 11:33 PM, Kym Kovan wrote: Hi Leo, You said: I can tell you what accounts for the low market share stats. It's confounding variables. If you look for apples in a peach tree you'd get low market share. Now survey major corporations and NN's market share will rise up the bell curve. No offense to Darian, but his website isn't representative of browser market share. I just did a test on 3 sites here, one very local, one national and one global. (very rounded numbers) local nat global/USA biased IE6 83% 67% 73% IE5+10% 15% 10% Moz 7% 11% 9% NS 0% 7% 8% Very different sites and differing numbers, but the IE6 numbers are a tad overwhelming :-/ The sites are just hosted by us, we did not have anything to do with their design but are involved in code maintenance. They are:- local, typical user - anyone local, good mixture of types: http://www.communityguide.com.au/ National, typical user - a car buff: http://www.bianteauctions.com/ Global, typical user - middle class family man in the USA: http://www.finametrica.com/ All these sites are _very_ busy so they give good averages. -- Yours, Kym * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Browser Stats - What a shock!
Darian Sorry guys... I blew that one. mea cupa Leo On Wednesday, March 24, 2004, at 11:34 PM, Darian Cabot wrote: Those weren't my website stats (_) My aim is to support all major browsers be it ie, nn, moz, or anything. I just stated that if moz is more popular than nn then I'm better off prioritizing that first :) Regards, Darian Cabot -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Software Engineer - Website Design http://www.cabotconsultants.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Brian I can tell you what accounts for the low market share stats. It's confounding variables. If you look for apples in a peach tree you'd get low market share. Now survey major corporations and NN's market share will rise up the bell curve. No offense to Darian, but his website isn't representative of browser market share. Leo On Wednesday, March 24, 2004, at 07:32 PM, theGrafixGuy wrote: I just downloaded the latest NS 7.01 and it is nothing more than Mozilla with NS's skin on it, even my installed Mozilla plug-ins are present in NS. But that doesn't explain the complete loss of market share! Brian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 3:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser Stats - What a shock! Wow what the hell happened to NS??!! Going by those figures I should be focassing my attention to Mozilla compatability. Thanks for the stats. Darian I actually decided to look in detail at my logs over the past month after people brought up the Browser compatibility issues: This is what I have for my site www.thegrafixguy.com and I get an average of 1 unique visitors a month. MSIE all versions 74.9% Netscape 1.8% (Man they Seriously lost the Browser War) Mozilla 11.7% Safari 4.4% Opera 0.4% FireBird 0.2% Konqueror 0.1% Multizilla (1 visit) Lynx (1 Visit) Two things here surprised me here - the death of Netscape in regards to popularity - last year, atleast Netscape was in the double digits, and also a few hits with MSIE 7.01 which I have not been able to find myself Though I must say for the heck of it, I downloaded Lynx and Installed it and took a look at my own site - It was suprising to see what was not there despite the lack of images and on the same hand surprising as to what is there. I can see that I have some work to do in that regard! Anyway, cheers, hope someone find the figures above interesting as I did. Brian * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Font size, and how large is large enough?
Russ So, is there are middle ground between absolute font sizing and no resizing at all? I reckon the answer (and happy to be persuaded otherwise), is relative font sizing. And I'd take Russ' advise one step further by adding that relative positioning and sizing for the layout also would be better for accessibility in font size and designing layout structure. If the design's layout expands or contracts relative to the user's font bowser settings, it's the best of both worlds. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hiding styles message to certain browsers
I am thinking of hiding my stylesheets from Mac IE and Netscape Jamie Agrr... You'd be leaving most of us creative people out in the cold! Leo
Re: [WSG] IE5 Mac Doosey
Peter yes it doesn't show in IE5 Mac and this bowser is very touchy with heights in percents. I think you need to define the height in #mainnav and remove the height and width 100% from the descendant a> element but I'd also scrap display block and let your li>s flow inline. The links are probably there in block but the hidden overflow rule is hiding them. Safari is showing them but it is a much more forgiving browser. Leo On Tuesday, March 23, 2004, at 07:40 PM, Universal Head wrote: I didn't make this site, but I'm picking up the pieces. The navigation uses CSS rollovers which seem to work fine in most browsers, but completely stuff up in IE5 Mac. As in no navigation appears at all. I'm not well versed in css-rollovers (or the quirks of IE5 Mac), so before I plunge into this jungle with a blunt machete, can anyone point out the five-lane highway next to it - so to speak? Site: http://www.polariswireless.com CSS: http://www.polariswireless.com/css/style.css Many thanks Peter Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
Re: [WSG] APC Article on Web Standards
Hugh ditto on between the line... Biased people who use such comments against reasons for standards they do not understand or care about, are myopic at best. They couldn't see a fly, if it landed on their nose. ;-) Leo On Tuesday, March 23, 2004, at 08:05 PM, Hugh Todd wrote: Cameron Adams wrote: Has anyone read the opinion article in APC Magazine regarding Web Standards? (I haven't) Now I have. Page 26 (for Aussies and Kiwis on the list). Guy by the name of David Emberton in the Opinion section. He's touted as a professional web developer, and has written a couple of books about Flash. Basic line... Web standards were created by intellectuals, they don't work, the browser wars are over, MS doesn't care, the disabled are used as a moral lever to get us to adopt web standards but the real world/market doesn't care. He is prepared to admit that XHTML and CSS have been 'at least moderately successful', but points out that SMIL, MathML, SVG and other W3C projects are pretty much dead in the water. Reading between the lines... 'I tried it, couldn't get it to work, and I want my life back'. -Hugh * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] CSS Shorthand for color
Simon Read the reply more carefully and you'll see I was targeting a desktop audience and speaking about desktop monitors. Leo On Monday, March 22, 2004, at 07:29 AM, Simon Jessey wrote: Actually, I would argue that it isn't as simple as that. Lately, I have noticed in my access logs that more and more PDA/cellphone users are hitting my website. Many of these devices are only capable of rendering the so-called browser-safe colors. Indeed, some only have 16 colors. It seems that a sensible philosophy is to consider your target audience. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards-compliant browsers - in order!
Although I truly respect trust Russ' methods, I have to agree with Justin on this one because IE on the mac is so notoriously uncompliant and quirky it makes the stylesheet too hard to manage. Justin's comment usage is a better way, although I was unaware of it and will need to study up on it. Thanks Justin for sharing. And thanks Russ for all your wonderful advise too. Leo On Sunday, March 21, 2004, at 05:45 PM, Justin French wrote: My experience tells me that ignoring IE during the build, then looking at it SPECIFICALLY with it's own set of style sheets later saves me heaps of time and grief. On Monday, March 22, 2004, at 08:00 AM, russ weakley wrote: Hi Martin, 1. Coding methodology --- I would recommend coding to standards, but checking across as many browsers as possible throughout the process of building layouts. The keys are (a) use as many browsers as possible, (b) check often and (c ) deal with layout issues as they arise: A. Use as many browsers as possible If you use one main browser for building, and only check at the end, you may find part or an entire layout is broken in another browser. The more browsers you test on, the less likely you are to come across problems later in the process. Having said that, recent versions of Mozilla, Opera, Safari and Firebird are all very standards compliant, so checking against these browsers is generally a very simple process. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
Peter From an interface building POV it's a matter of audience function. If your site has reference-based informational content and caters to a large percentage of users who need this information and time is important to them, then one-click popup menus are necessary. However, as a artistic designer, I don't like them and prefer an alternative such as hierarchical rollover menus. And they can be done using CSS only methods. Leo On Sunday, March 21, 2004, at 05:29 PM, Universal Head wrote: Personally think that in most cases they are unnecessary. I think a well designed site should present information in a hierarchical fashion, allowing the user to access more detailed info as they progress into the site (while still keeping all parts of the site quickly accessible in two or three clicks). I think the opposite approach, of making every section and subsection available from the homepage via drop-down menus, has the opposite effect to what is intended by confusing the user with masses of choices upfront. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] drop down menus
On Sunday, March 21, 2004, at 08:08 PM, theGrafixGuy wrote: and even y'all are Aussie's This list might be based in AU but it is international. Like myself (New York) there are over 50 members in the USA represented on this list. Leo
Re: [WSG] mysterious space
Peter I'd try neutralizing the default for the span tags that you're using in the html in place of list items. Set a rule for those specific spans to margin 0 because IE screws the rendering in default. And to be safe 0 the padding as well. Leo On Sunday, March 21, 2004, at 10:24 PM, Universal Head wrote: Damn - doesn't seem to work for me despite trying out several permutations! Any other ideas? Peter Can anyone enlighten me on this ... my thumbnail pics have about 5 pixels space at the bottom in IE6 that I can't work out how to remove. In the CSS I have specified height and width, and padding is 0, so who knows where its coming from. I ran into a similar problem last week... here's the solution that worked for me - set the image display to block http://www.alistapart.com/articles/betterliving/ see XHTML BROWSERS near the bottom of the page Josh Parrish http://keylime.nu Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
Re: [WSG] iCapture + Drop down menu
Maureen The site 's sidebar menus work find in Safari 1.0 However the horizontal rollover menu at the top right of the page has a flickering problem probably due to a CSS sizing error. Leo On Sunday, March 21, 2004, at 09:29 PM, Maureen Beattie wrote: a problem on the Macs/Safari? I would appreciate it if someone on a Mac * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] iCapture + Drop down menu
You could incase it in a div and float the div then the image doesn't need a width Leo On Monday, March 22, 2004, at 01:46 AM, Hugh Todd wrote: Maureen, I don't know what the usual procedure is, but the float property does require a width to be specified, so I think you probably have two choices. 1) Put the border around the img itself (which leaves your caption outside it, changing your design). You could then enclose the left floating img and the caption in an invisible right floating box of fixed width, and make the caption float left, too, with a fixed width. The img could then float over the border of the enclosing div, and while the caption will not necessarily run the full length of the img, it will at least stay associated with the picture. (I'd not centre the caption, so that you don't have a problem with the caption centring at random points.) 2) Make all your pictures the same size :( Anyone else got a better solution? Are there any problems with what I've suggested? (For eg, is it possible that the img might run off the rh side of the page if it's a lot wider than its enclosing, fixed width, right floating div?) -Hugh I wondered about that. The class photoright is used throughout the site with different size images, therefore to specify a width is difficult. When I placed the image I added the height and width with img style and thought that would cover it. What is the usual procedure in this case? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Opera market share
Matthias... lol I lvoe it! On Saturday, March 20, 2004, at 07:01 AM, Matthias wrote: Besides, as IE keeps me away from the more sophisticated things, Opera is no problem at all. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] A rave about h1's
Tonico A website is not book. It is different, it is not something you hold in your hands, This very true and sometimes people with print experience still need to grasp it (sorry guys... you know who you are). However the reverse is also true. Programmers think in terms of modules (sections) and algorithms, but these become esoteric to the rest of us. I think that standards based development is the best chance we have to bridge these two worlds. The semantic standards are closer to how we think and read books, newspapers, and websites. In other word, gather information. This information standard needs to be maintained across all media so as not to leave anyone behind. Just my thoughts Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Some links for reading...
Russ Wow what a great set of links... Thanks for supplying me with tonight reading. Douglas Bowman can really cook... I hope some of his stuff will rub off on me. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Opera market share
Hugh Russ is right. Standards based design done visually or not will save you time and headaches. Besides, Opera 7.5 is still beta so why should you even care about it yet. The current Opera doesn't rendered well on the Mac and I suspect the new Opera won't be any better. IMHO you should stick with FireFox, Mozilla, and Safari for visual designing on the Mac. Leo On Saturday, March 20, 2004, at 12:50 AM, Hugh Todd wrote: whether it was worth putting in the work to fix any Opera idiosyncracies * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] FIR deprecated [WAS: A rave about h1's]
Russ I'm guilty as charged... I have posted more than one tread in a message. The reason it happens is I enjoy this list so much I read ALL treads and I'm sure many list members do too. People complain about too much traffic, but when you condense it, they complain about not having enough treads. It's a dammed if you do... dammed if you don't... situation. Leo On Thursday, March 18, 2004, at 10:04 AM, russ weakley wrote: This is a good point, but keep in mind you should start a new post, not just reply to an old post and change the subject. This is due to threading. All emails have identifiers hidden in the headers that keep track of conversations. If you change the subject, this thread identifier still ties it to the previous conversation. For example: In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Does it sound like I know what I'm talking about? I know nothing about this stuff, I'm rang Peter (listdad) for an explanation. :) Russ Just a request - could we change subject lines when the subject changes? Actually, I can't remember how the h1 thread became the FIR thread... But anyway, I'm sure I'm not alone in liking the ability to scan my list inboxes for subject headings that I'm following. cheers, Gyrus [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://norlonto.net/gyrus/dev/ PGP key available * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Just got an eMac - now I'm more confused than ever!
John Dump the table and add margin: auto; to your ID container in the stylesheet or head and your page layout will center perfectly in most recent browsers on the mac. You can also use the shorthand version to keep the layout static vertical using margin: 10px auto; On Thursday, March 18, 2004, at 12:41 PM, John Penlington wrote: on Mac. I had to put the whole page into a table (and I felt badly about it) just to get it to center on Safari. I cannot get it to center, even with the table, on IE 5.2 on Mac.
Re: [WSG] Accessibility in HFE programs?
Susan Usability and accessibility are integral parts of many reputable upper level media programs, not just per se human factors. Dedicated human factors programs branch from psychology as ergonomics or computer science as interface building. Here at the University at Buffalo most dedicated degree programs, focusing on web design and experimental media development, are offered interdisciplinary through the art and media studies departments in conjunction with the colleges of arts sciences. A good example of how human factors has intertwined with usability, accessibility, and media studies can be found at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)'s Media Lab. It is a central interdisciplinary hub for related technologies on and off campus. Leo On Wednesday, March 17, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Susan R. Grossman wrote: I've been reading a while but haven't written - but have a question that I hope is a correct topic for this group. Does anyone on the list have a Human Factors Degree? If so - do you know if accessibility is being woven yet into the courses? I teach Usability and Information Architecture at a state college continuing education program. (certification programs) I have been including a full night on accessibility separately from the 2 nights of usability (which covers Human Factor Engineering concepts too) and feel that my lack of knowledge on how the courses are structured currently and where accessibility is fitting in is hurting the information I give my students. One of the things I tell my students is that I believe in the next 5 years Usability Experts and Human Factor Engineers are going to be an upcoming hot job with so many dif aspects. I do not know what they're really teaching in the HFE programs though and haven't been able to get any concrete info from the few programs I've tried writing to - they seem to be more interested in responding to me about whether I'm interested in their Masters Programs. Any help/links on how accessibility is impacting courses/degress like Human Facotr Engineering would be appreciated. Thanks - Susan Grossman http://www.finishingfirst.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] A rave about h1's
On Wednesday, March 17, 2004, at 03:35 PM, russ weakley wrote: While using multiple h1's are valid, you should also think about the underlying page structure - and think about how other devices will interpret this structure. Russ Your point is well taken and needs to be implemented more. There is a big difference between using an h1 for styling as opposed to semantic structure. My question is what to do about blogs? Their current design seems guilty in this respect. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] dreamweaver
Jeremy how many are successfully using the WYSIWYG on a consistent basis and doing standards compliant work? I've used DW for 5+ years and always used the design view first and then I'd have to clean up DW's verbose code by hand, but back then it was as standard as standards were. i would say that most design blogs are innocent in this respect. Your right of course, my blog comment was stereotyping at best. Leo
Re: [WSG] dreamweaver
On Tuesday, March 16, 2004, at 11:27 PM, Peter Ottery wrote: can dreamweaver have its preferences etc manipulated enough to be to produce markup and css exactly the way you want? Pete Actually dreamweaver is an html scripted application internally. You can change or extend any part of the program to suit your needs. With this built-in scripting framework you could make dreamweaver talk baby-eze or code any standard you want to invent. Leo
Re: [WSG] New CSS site
Michael I agree with your budgetary concerns. To fill this void, many universities are now merging their art departments with their media studies departments to offer advanced programs for graphic artists and web developers so that they can wear both hats [graphic designer-developer programmer]. I was the very first at the University at Buffalo (New York) to be conferred with their post-masters certificate of advanced studies (CAS) in New Media Design. This graduate program is all about conveying information visually on the Internet, media devices, and other venues. It covered the art and function with programming for 21st century. The new media artist is the designer of the next generation and they will be expected to wear several hats. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Load problem in IE
Ryan The site works well on the Mac and all links worked. It's nicely done; informational and functional. If I had a comment to the design, is would be that some of the pages have a lot of white space from lack of content. Since there are so many headings, why not propose to consolidate the links with little content on one informational page and thus making it easier for the users to find content. Just my thoughts. Leo On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 11:10 AM, Ryan Christie wrote: This is also a new site, and I would appreciate any issues or comments about the accessibility or layout, etc. All pages are validated XHTML Trans and the CSS checks too :) The names of the sections/links may sound quite odd, but the client has requested those specific names (aka, can't change them). site: http://www.theward.net/psyc css: http://www.theward.net/psyc/css/general.css Ryan Christie [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.theward.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Overcoming Rejections
Jamie On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 02:32 PM, Jaime Wong wrote: It's easier to teach my cat to fetch than to change the boss's mind-set. The key is to make the boss feel as though he suggested it. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] text and graphic on one line
Jamie from someone in this list (sorry I forgot who but he's kind enough to let me know) told me that site works in Safari for Mac I sent you that message. The link to the sitemap was broken in IE Mac but not in Safari. This probably means that IE is choking on the link's syntax. It's probably not a cross-platform issue. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] text and graphic on one line
Jamie Actually the layout seems to degrade nicely on the elements, and most were presented just fine on the mac. MSIE doesn't play fair no matter what computer you use. The broken link was the only one I found to the sitemap and it was on a page one or two clicks deep. I don't remember which ;-) Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] New CSS site
Peter Excellent work I love the styling. Leslie's comment on an extra click is worth doing and Scott's comment on navigational contrast is a factor. I personally did think the lack of contrast on the horizontal navbar buttons was hard to read. I viewed it in Safari 1.1 1.2 Mac MSIE 5.2.2 Mac and everything works except in MSIE Mac the sitemap brings up a 404 but it did work in Safari. Must be a syntax thing. The pseudo-borders (hit spots) for active links in Safari also need to be defined because they are showing inconsistently on different navbar buttons. It bites into the hard work you put into doing it right. Overall I think you've done a great job on this site. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Russ wrote in... Re: [WSG] Cascading background colors The important question is - do you know why it worked the second time around? The answer is that the second rule has more specificity... The above is a perfect example of the purpose of this mailing list. Russ' reply to Peter's how to directly follows up on the reasoning behind the CSS web standard. This is a win win situation for all of us, not just Peter. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] turning back to the dark side...
Brendan And let the float be with you... Leo On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 12:19 AM, Brendan Smith wrote: And by the way ... I'm your father. Am I to take it then that CSS is essentially a bunch of Jedi mind tricks? Brendan From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 09/03/04 4:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] turning back to the dark side... Good one Ross! Nice site ... though maybe a bit more leading in the body copy would make it easy to read (sorry for being picky). And by the way ... I'm your father. Peter ;) On 09/03/2004, at 4:00 PM, Paul Ross wrote: As a footnote to this thread I want to add that I did in fact stick to the light and the way and the website was launched as XHTML/CSS. Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com winmail.dat * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Lists weird br / requirement
Frank Try setting a height attribute so the background won't shrink for lack of content Leo On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 10:55 AM, Frank wrote: Hey all, I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm working on. I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each record in a DIV, with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list. The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate row-colours. For some reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working. It just won't work. I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet is being laid out, or if I'm just not doing something properly. I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to display properly in the DIV, I have to add br clear=all / just before closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom border of the DIV. Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having: a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating rows should be visible, but they're not) b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG Here's a link to the stylesheet: a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you! Frank Manno Design Interactive Group www.di-group.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Mike et. al., I'm very new to the WSG list. I have been feeling my way around to see what is appropriate for this list. I'm not in AU. I'm in New York so I won't be attending meetings anytime soon. I joined this list because I truly believe that web design should follow strict but accessible standards based design. As such we need to discuss the evolving nature of web standards. But in the real world web standards are not an isolated topic. The debate cannot be conducted at the academic level without the experiences of what works and what doesn't. I believe and sense that the dedicated people here realize that for web standards to work in the field they must be experienced and explored in the field. Therefore, IMHO, I would like to see this list retain the how to and how not to implement a particular area of the standard. However, human interface design is designed and developed by humans so I expect some humorous off topic post to break the ice. I think we all know why we're here. Well that's what I think Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?
Seona You could assignment the stylesheet from a cookie with php variables. Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Problem with footer
Kim Check your stylesheet for syntax errors ... You have misspelled the word height in your container statements. Leo On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 09:37 AM, Kim Kruse wrote: Hi, Okay... I'm trying to build a xhtml strict / css site. (my first ever with layers only) The page is located here: http://www.lazur.dk/jette/index2.htm My problem is the footer. I'm not even sure this is possible but I would very much like the footer always to be below the highest div and have a margin of 20 px to the highest div (in this case the indhold div). The footer aligns with the bottom of the browser window but it also cuts of some of the content. So my question is... is this possible with css? (I rather not use javascript) I would really appreciate if someone has the time to explain this to me. (I've been looking at way too many tutorials and my brain is close to a total meltdown) Kind regards Kim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
