Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-27 Thread Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
- Daniel Carosone d...@geek.com.au skrev: On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 10:02:42AM -0700, Chris Du wrote: SAS: full duplex SATA: half duplex SAS: dual port SATA: single port (some enterprise SATA has dual port) SAS: 2 active channel - 2 concurrent write, or 2 read, or 1 write and

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-27 Thread David Dyer-Bennet
On Mon, April 26, 2010 17:21, Edward Ned Harvey wrote: Also, if you've got all those disks in an array, and they're MTBF is ... let's say 25,000 hours ... then 3 yrs later when they begin to fail, they have a tendency to all fail around the same time, which increases the probability of

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-27 Thread Bob Friesenhahn
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Hey, you know what might be helpful? Being able to add redundancy to a raid vdev. Being able to go from RAIDZ2 to RAIDZ3 by adding another drive of suitable size. Also being able to go the other way. This lets you do the trick of temporarily

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-27 Thread David Dyer-Bennet
On Tue, April 27, 2010 10:38, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Hey, you know what might be helpful? Being able to add redundancy to a raid vdev. Being able to go from RAIDZ2 to RAIDZ3 by adding another drive of suitable size. Also being able to go the

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-27 Thread Bob Friesenhahn
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I don't think I understand your scenario here. The docs online at http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-5461/gazgd?a=view describe uses of zpool replace that DO run the array degraded for a while, and don't seem to mention any other. Could you be

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-27 Thread David Dyer-Bennet
On Tue, April 27, 2010 11:17, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I don't think I understand your scenario here. The docs online at http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-5461/gazgd?a=view describe uses of zpool replace that DO run the array degraded for a

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-27 Thread Bob Friesenhahn
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I don't have a RAIDZ group, but trying this while there's significant load on the group, it should be easy to see if there's traffic on the old drive after the resilver starts. If there is, that would seem to be evidence that it's continuing to use

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-27 Thread Daniel Carosone
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 10:36:37AM +0200, Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk wrote: - Daniel Carosone d...@geek.com.au skrev: SAS: Full SCSI TCQ SATA: Lame ATA NCQ What's so lame about NCQ? Primarily, the meager number of outstanding requests; write cache is needed to pretend the writes are done

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-27 Thread Brandon High
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Daniel Carosone d...@geek.com.au wrote: What's so lame about NCQ? Primarily, the meager number of outstanding requests; write cache is needed to pretend the writes are done straight away and free up the slots for reads. NCQ handles 32 outstanding operations.

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
- Dave Pooser dave@alfordmedia.com skrev: I'm building another 24-bay rackmount storage server, and I'm considering what drives to put in the bays. My chassis is a Supermicro SC846A, so the backplane supports SAS or SATA; my controllers are LSI3081E, again supporting SAS or SATA.

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Edward Ned Harvey
From: zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:zfs-discuss- boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Dave Pooser (lots of small writes/reads), how much benefit will I see from the SAS interface? In some cases, SAS outperforms SATA. I don't know what circumstances those are. I think the

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Edward Ned Harvey
From: zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:zfs-discuss- boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk About SAS vs SATA, I'd guess you won't be able to see any change at all. The bottleneck is the drives, not the interface to them. That doesn't agree with my

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Richard Elling
On Apr 25, 2010, at 10:02 PM, Dave Pooser wrote: I'm building another 24-bay rackmount storage server, and I'm considering what drives to put in the bays. My chassis is a Supermicro SC846A, so the backplane supports SAS or SATA; my controllers are LSI3081E, again supporting SAS or SATA.

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Chris Du
SAS: full duplex SATA: half duplex SAS: dual port SATA: single port (some enterprise SATA has dual port) SAS: 2 active channel - 2 concurrent write, or 2 read, or 1 write and 1 read SATA: 1 active channel - 1 read or 1 write SAS: Full error detection and recovery on both read and write SATA:

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Brandon High
On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Dave Pooser dave@alfordmedia.com wrote: Assuming I'm going to be using three 8-drive RAIDz2 configurations, and further assuming this server will be used for backing up home directories (lots of small writes/reads), how much benefit will I see from the SAS

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
- Brandon High bh...@freaks.com skrev: SAS drives are generally intended to be used in a multi-drive / RAID environment, and are delivered with TLER / CCTL / ERC enabled to prevent them from falling out of arrays when they hit a read error. SAS drives will generally have a longer

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Dave Pooser
On 4/26/10 10:10 AM, Richard Elling richard.ell...@gmail.com wrote: SAS shines with multiple connections to one or more hosts. Hence, SAS is quite popular when implementing HA clusters. So that would be how one builds something like the active/active controller failover in standalone RAID

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Bob Friesenhahn
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk wrote: SAS drives will generally have a longer warranty than desktop drives. With 2TB drives priced at €150 or lower, I somehow think paying for drive lifetime is far more expensive than getting a few more drives and add redundancy This really

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
This really depends on if you are willing to pay in advance, or pay after the failure. Even with redundancy, the cost of a failure may be high due to loss of array performance and system administration time. Array performance may go into the toilet during resilvers, depending on the

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Gary Mills
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 01:32:33PM -0500, Dave Pooser wrote: On 4/26/10 10:10 AM, Richard Elling richard.ell...@gmail.com wrote: SAS shines with multiple connections to one or more hosts. Hence, SAS is quite popular when implementing HA clusters. So that would be how one builds

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Edward Ned Harvey
From: zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:zfs-discuss- boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk With 2TB drives priced at €150 or lower, I somehow think paying for drive lifetime is far more expensive than getting a few more drives and add redundancy If you have a

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread James C. McPherson
On 26/04/10 03:02 PM, Dave Pooser wrote: I'm building another 24-bay rackmount storage server, and I'm considering what drives to put in the bays. My chassis is a Supermicro SC846A, so the backplane supports SAS or SATA; my controllers are LSI3081E, again supporting SAS or SATA. Looking at

Re: [zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-26 Thread Daniel Carosone
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 10:02:42AM -0700, Chris Du wrote: SAS: full duplex SATA: half duplex SAS: dual port SATA: single port (some enterprise SATA has dual port) SAS: 2 active channel - 2 concurrent write, or 2 read, or 1 write and 1 read SATA: 1 active channel - 1 read or 1 write

[zfs-discuss] SAS vs SATA: Same size, same speed, why SAS?

2010-04-25 Thread Dave Pooser
I'm building another 24-bay rackmount storage server, and I'm considering what drives to put in the bays. My chassis is a Supermicro SC846A, so the backplane supports SAS or SATA; my controllers are LSI3081E, again supporting SAS or SATA. Looking at drives, Seagate offers an enterprise