I want to thank everyone for their valuable input. I have passed all this along the parties that originally asked me, to ask the question. And they can decide what to do with it.
Richard L. Mote CET Rimrock Design Services, LLC Middleburg, PA 17842 Mobile 570-541-2685 EMAIL <mailto:rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com> rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com WEB: www.rimrockdesignservicesllc.com From: Anthony Carrizosa <anth...@archerconstruction.com> Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2024 3:42 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe Calculations Very valuable input Steve and something we should all keep on our minds when designing fire systems. The OP stated that it is a four-story building designed to NFPA 13R standards. as such it is not classified as a high-rise building. If it were a high rise then it wouldn’t be designed to NFPA 13R but rather NFPA 13 standards and would be fully sprinklered thus allowing the maximum of 1000 GPM. So if not a high rise then manual wet standpipes are allowed so if he needs to include all required stairs then he must calculate them to a max of 1250 GPM and list the pressure and flow requirements for the fire department pumper. OP stated that the water supply isn’t sufficient which must mean that the pressure is not sufficient because if they didn’t have the required minimum fire flow ( most likely 1500 GPM minimum) then they would not be allowed to build this building. Or would have to provide stored water supply to achieve this minimum required flow. So the quick answer is design the flow rate for each required stair to a maximum of 1250 GPM for a manual wet standpipe and note the required pressure and volume on the sign attached for the FDC. It would be good to meet with the FM to discuss this in advance as NFPA 14 states. Anthony Carrizosa Project Manager | Fire Protection 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593 <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f&c=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,&typo=1> https://archerconstruction.com From: Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com <mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2024 10:23 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe Calculations It’s the committee’s intent that the 1,000 gpm threshold is applicable only to buildings sprinklered per NFPA 13. There have been numerous fires in 13R-protected buildings where the structure became involved, many of which were roof burn-offs. Fire service is acutely aware of this nationwide, and any member of the residential sprinkler committee will affirm that every cycle, there is at least one but usually multiple inputs that propose to add sprinklers in attics if not all combustible concealed spaces. So the language in 14 is based on fire incident reporting and other empirical data that inform us that it’s not prudent to limit hose stream capacity in 13R-protected buildings, so than an added measure (one additional attack stream) of hydraulic capability is backed into the standpipe system. The foregoing is my opinion only and does not represent NFPA or the NFPA 14 Technical Committee, nor intended to serve as an interpretation of the standard. Protection Design and Consulting Steve Leyton, President T | 619.255.8964 x 102 | <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.protectiondesign.com%2f&c=E,1,VZSZ56jk4A1jC5CHa5teWnpcljH1W1CUPmEthqeDeLPNDe47OnqIrhU23nO3FmpDGXqBuCpGHWeTr9VWJz9wDoxo7kX09dTCOxpRiiBxcGUDHy9UMA,,&typo=1> www.protectiondesign.com 2851 Camino Del Rio South | Suite 210 | San Diego, CA 92108 Fire Protection System Design | Consulting | Planning | Training From: Ken Wagoner <k...@parsleyconsulting.com <mailto:k...@parsleyconsulting.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2024 10:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Standpipe Calculations I disagree, Jose. I'm not terribly confused by the omission of a direct reference to 13R in that section. As the text reads "...for buildings that are not sprinklered throughout in accordance with NFPA 13." Wouldn't you agree that 13R is other than NFPA 13? sincerely, Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 500 West Mechanic Street Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235 Phone: (760) 745-6181 Visit the website <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1> On 4/4/2024 10:28 AM, Jose Anibal Castillo wrote: It appears there's a conflict in understanding, as section 10.6.1.1.6 outlines a requirement for a flow rate of 1,250 gallons per minute (gpm) for buildings lacking sprinkler coverage, in line with NFPA 13 standards. Yet, 10.6.1.1.6 omits any mention of NFPA 13R, leading to confusion about the necessity of meeting the 1,250 gpm requirement in scenarios where NFPA 13 standards might not be mandated by the building code but NFPA 13R. Furthermore, NFPA 14 does not discuss provisions for buildings with partial sprinkler protection according to NFPA 13R. On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 9:07 AM John Denhardt <jdenha...@firesprinkler.org <mailto:jdenha...@firesprinkler.org> > wrote: Correct - for standpipe calculations purposes, buildings protected with NFPA 13R systems do not meet the requirements to limit the flow to 1,250 GPM 10.6.1.1.6 in NFPA 14 - 2024 John August Denhardt, P.E. Vice-President Engineering and Technical Services American Fire Sprinkler Association 301-343-1457 On Apr 3, 2024, at 09:49, Fpdcdesign <fpdcdes...@gmail.com <mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com> > wrote: 13R buildings are not considered to be fully sprinklered. On Apr 3, 2024 at 9:45 AM, <Shawn Foor <mailto:shawn.f...@gmail.com> > wrote: Why would you do 1250 if it’s a fully sprinklered building? Shawn Foor, SET FOOR DESIGN, LLC 10208 E 98TH ST TULSA, OK 74133 P:918-237-1400 On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 08:43 <rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com <mailto:rimrock.design.servi...@gmail.com> > wrote: Asking this on behalf of Rowe Sprinkler Systems (Temporally Un-Retired) We have a 4-story modular apartment building sprinklered in accordance with NFPA 13R with allowed exceptions, with 4 standpipes. The standpipes are connected at the 1st floor level. One each at the ends of the L shaped building and two at the approximate mid-point on either side of a 2-hour separation wall with self-closing, rated doors in the corridor. The question is for purposes of calculating the standpipe can these be treated as two separate buildings? For example, 250 gpm at the far end of the 4th floor, 250 gpm at the far end of the 3rd floor and 250 gpm at the at the connecting point of the middle standpipe, for a total of 750 gpm. Or do we have to calculate the additional standpipes up to 1250 gpm. Available water is the issue. Richard L. 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