Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? Can better oil filtering help with this problem? Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars.
----- Original Message ----- From: "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] > Thanks for the follow up, Keith. > I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some > relevant facts here: > www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_esthers _e.pdf > <#www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec> > Keith Addison wrote: > > > Hello Stephan, Jan and all > > > > I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was > > quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: > > > >> Hi Keith, > >> > >> this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. > >> > >> Mit freundlichen GrŸ§en / Best regards > >> > >> Alexander Noack > >> ELSBETT Technologie GmbH > >> Weissenburger Stra§e 15 > >> D-91177 Thalmaessing > >> Internet: www.elsbett.com > >> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 > >> Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 > > > > > > This was the quote in question: > > > >> "Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean > >> based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel > >> engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. > >> There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when > >> in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a > >> polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the > >> life of your lubricating system. > >> > >> "What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for > >> the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil > >> intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed > >> also known as canola." > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > Keith > > > > > > > >> Hello Jan > >> > >>> Hello Stephan. > >>> The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting > >>> soy bean > >>> oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and > >>> several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating > >>> that the > >>> oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and > >>> therefore > >>> unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. > >> > >> > >> In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: "Drying > >> results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the > >> unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and > >> being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then > >> occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid." > >> -- From "Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel" by Phillip > >> Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, > >> and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association > >> Inc. > >> http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm > >> > >> See: > >> Iodine Values > >> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine > >> > >> But that's not quite what Elsbett's Alexander Noack is quoted as > >> saying at the East Coast Region-United States Elsbett Workshop: > >> > >> "Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean > >> based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel > >> engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. > >> There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when > >> in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a > >> polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the > >> life of your lubricating system. > >> > >> "What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for > >> the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil > >> intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed > >> also known as canola." > >> > >> So it would seem that Elsbett's reservations are not so much with > >> polymerisation per se because of the high iodine number as with > >> fuel-lubricating oil interactions. > >> > >> Can you shed any light on this? > >> > >>> There are some companies producing me from oil with a high iodine > >>> number, > >>> and there is no practical difference between those products and the > >>> BD:s > >>> with a iodine number around or under 120 for the consumer. > >> > >> > >> Can you quote any research that supports the conclusion that there is > >> no practical difference? I've heard of drying problems with sunflower > >> oil biodiesel, and even with rapeseed oil biodiesel (I don't have the > >> reports, I was told they're in German) and I would not want to use > >> linseed oil or tung oil. > >> > >>> And may I add that > >>> the American B100 standard allows soy bean oil as raw material. > >> > >> > >> Of course they do - how much do you think the soy councils and Big > >> Soy had to do with that? They were involved at every level. Whatever > >> the science may say, do you think it would have been possible for > >> them to develop standards that excluded soy? > >> > >> Similarly, it's often said that the EU standard's stipulating a > >> maximum iodine # of 120 (115 in France and Germany, while the US > >> standard doesn't stipulate anything) is politically based, intended > >> to exclude soy and protect European rapeseed oil production, but is > >> that really all there is to it? > >> > >> If you really wanted to exclude drying problems you'd probably have > >> to exclude rapeseed oil as well and stop at castor oil (85), but no > >> doubt that would be as politically impossible in Europe as excluding > >> soy would be in the US. In both, though less so in Europe perhaps, > >> biodiesel and biofuels are still seen more as agricultural > >> commodities issues than as energy issues. > >> > >> There is a whole side to this that is not to be trusted. In the US, > >> it might not be a clever thing to do career-wise for a researcher to > >> start investigating polymerising problems with soy biodiesel. Quality > >> checks of commercial biodiesel seem to be far from watertight, with > >> one lab attesting ASTM quality and another - after the fuel started > >> causing problems - finding it was not ASTM quality. One commercial > >> produceare repeatedly produced off-spec fuel that caused problems > >> with users' cars, but the NBB didn't seem to be aware of it and > >> proudly presented that producer's plant for delegates to the NBB's > >> annual convention to tour. People at the convention who raised the > >> sub-spec fuel issue were told not to rock the boat. > >> > >> Like Stephan, I too would like some reliable information on this > >> issue. I'm not convinced that it's not a problem. > >> > >> We have discussed this here before, Alexander's statement, > >> polymerisation, and oxidation - see: > >> > >> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34679/ > >> > >> and > >> > >> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34769/1 > >> > >> (Elsbett, by the way, is not anti-biodiesel.) > >> > >> Best wishes > >> > >> Keith > >> > >> > >>> Best regards > >>> Jan Warnqvist > >>> AGERATEC AB > >>> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>> + 46 554 201 89 > >>> +46 70 499 38 45 > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:19 AM > >>> Subject: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD > >>> making?] > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >Hi Everyone! > >>> > >I am a recent addition to the biodiesel world, due to a malfunction > >>> > >in my brain (age related no doubt) that caused me to go and buy a > >>> > >190D.(I Love it just as I knew I would) . After I decided that > >>> > >buying the conversion kit from Elsbett wasn't necessarily the best > >>> > >option (due to local WVO quality concerns)....by the way, if you > >>> come to > >>> > >Hawaii, where I live, and decide to eat in a restaurant, make sure > >>> > >you have healthinsurance, the glop they are using here to fry stuff > >>> > >in ...... > >>> > > > >>> > >Seriously, though, the WVO I am getting here is is a mix of mostly > >>> > >Soybean oil used 100 times over and other unidentified saturated and > >>> unsaturated things. > >>> > >So I deciided to make BD. > >>> > >Now, Everything is running, I've done small batches, large batches, > >>> > >learned a lot, I am using it....and now I just read that an > >>> > >Elsbett engineer said to stay away from Soybean oil, regardless if > >>> > >used straight or as feedstock for BD. > >>> > > > >>> > >Now, in my (brief) dealings with the Elsbett company I had the > >>> > >distinctive feeling that they have a little bit of an anti- BD > >>> leaning > >>> (maybe I got that because German is my native language) > >>> > > > >>> > But in studying the resources further, and considering the high IV > >>> > >of soybean oil more questions as to its suitability seem to > >>> emerge.... > >>> > > > >>> > >Here are some questions: As far as suitability as a long term > >>> > >source for B100, how serious are the concerns in using BD made from > >>> > >this sort of an oil? > >>> > > > >>> > What criteria in evaluating the finished product (beyond Mike > >>> Perry's > >>> criteria of pH and aspect) > >>> > >should serve as a go no go test? > >>> > > > >>> > does a two step process improve the situation with the high number of > >>> double bonds > >>> > (which leads to the high IV value, as I understand) > >>> > > >>> > >Thanks for your consideration, Aloha > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
