Hello Bill
Keith,
I don't mean to sound trite, but what is the price or cost of freedom
(democracy)? 31, 33 or 51% of the worlds military budget isn't
pertinent.
Diesel Bill
You'll have to define "freedom (democracy)" before I can answer that.
But everybody knows what it means? Maybe so, but what exactly do you
mean by it? You haven't been here very long, but long enough to know
that the list will not accept mere labellings which might be little
more than convenient cloaks thrown over a host of sins.
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"?
There are a lot, really a lot, of people who now have that kind of
freedom because Washington has insisted on its kind of freedom,
whether of the neocon or the neo-liberal variety or several other
varieties, and it doesn't include the millions who didn't survive it.
Might it have something to do with this (from the list rules): "Like
any community, your rights end where those of others begin"?
Is it something that some people (big, strong ones perhaps) can hold
(or squander) at the expense of others in the world community? That's
what the vast majority of the world community thinks, and says so,
very loudly - though many American ears are deaf to it.
Results of previous PIPA/Knowledge Networks poll:
- 59% [of Americans polled] were unaware that the majority of world
public opinion is opposed to the US war with Iraq
What does "freedom (democracy)" have to do with this, for instance,
among a vast embarrassment of such riches?
"... It [the smoking gun memo leaked to the London Sunday Times,
about which the "liberal" (LOL!) US mainstream media have been so
quiet] means that our president and all of his administration are war
criminals. It's as simple as that. They lied to the American people,
have killed and injured and traumatized thousands of American men and
women doing their patriotic duty, killed at least 100,000 Iraqi
civilians, destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and poisoned its
environment, squandered billions and billions of our tax dollars,
made a mockery of American integrity in the world, changed the course
of history, tortured Iraqi prisoners, and bound us intractably to an
insane situation that they have no idea how to fix because they had
no plan, but greed and empire, in the first place."
-- From: "Administration's offenses impeachable" by Robert Shetterly
06/02/05 "Bangor Daily News"
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9035.htm
The secret Downing Street memo:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html
What does it have to do with this?
"List of International Obligations violated by George W. Bush"
[actually not only by George W. Bush]
http://www.motherearth.org/bushwanted/laws.php#rogue
What does it have to do with Henry David Thoreau's ideas of freedom
and democracy, some of which I just posted in this thread?
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200
5-June/000213.html
What does it have to do with this?
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200
5-June/000223.html
Once we can agree on what "freedom (democracy)" really means I'll be
happy to answer your question, if you're still willing to ask it.
Best wishes
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, June 3, 2005 3:29 pm
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol
Lang
> Hello Larry
>
> >Keith,
> > I knew, from previous veiwing on this list, that I would definetly
> >be in the minority.
>
> We are all in the minority, we are all in the majority too.
>
> >However, discussion and sharing opinions is the
> >best part of living in any democracy.
>
> Yes... it's the essence of what we're all doing here. But you
> could
> have left out the last three words. Here on the Internet, it
> doesn't
> much matter where you live or under what sort of regime.
>
> >How else would we ever get new
> >ideas, solutions.
>
> How else indeed.
>
> > I guess it is just the "Red State" in me,
>
> I'm sorry Larry, I don't know what that means.
>
> >but I am proud of the US
> >and its existing positions within the world community.
>
> But the world community rejects these positions by a truly
> massive,
> unprecedented, majority (as do very many Americans). Yet you talk
> of
> democracy. It is contradictory. Not much sharing to be done if
> you're
> the only one in step, and insist on it, at everyone else's expense.
>
> >I have
> >experienced life in other countries and found some to be very
> >enjoyable, others however were very repressive.
>
> Not to doubt or to disparage, but it depends how you did it. Were
> you
> there on your terms or theirs? There are people who say that,
> having
> lived in the local Hilton, corporate executives who say that but
> they've lived a life entirely buffered from the local conditions
> and
> experienced essentially nothing. And others who just muck in at
> street level with everyone else, live in an ordinary
> neighbourhood,
> get an ordinary job on local conditions. They've all experienced
> life
> in other countries - or have they?
>
> There are so many Americans now who find the US very repressive.
> They
> liken it to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, yet I don't think they love
> their country any less than you do. Some of them write to me,
> they're
> anguished about it. There are quite a few of them here. Discussing
> and sharing opinions means accepting this diversity, IMHO, even
> relishing it.
>
> > I do enjoy the discussion an look forward to more and others.
>
> Good, and most welcome. All views are welcome, the more diverse
> the
> better. I guess the only view that isn't welcome is a refusal to
> accept those of others when they differ. That is truly sterile,
> I'm
> sure you'll agree.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
> >Larry
> >
> >On 6/3/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Well, well...
> > >
> > > I'm aware this will probably chuck the cat in with the pigeons but
> > > I'm undeterred. It's not directed at anyone in particular.
> > >
> > > This discussion could only happen in America, while the rest
> of us
> > > (that is, most of us) look on bemused. An American list member who
> > > demands respect for his views on the basis of his military service
> > > will not get that respect from the majority of list members,
> and he
> > > ought to be aware of that. From some he might get the very
> opposite> > of respect. For me, it's simply not significant. It
> doesn't even mean
> > > he necessarily knows better, on the contrary, it could as
> easily mean
> > > he's incapable of seeing it straight.
> > >
> > > Where else in the world is military service placed on such a
> pedestal> > of pride? Where else is the military held in such high
> esteem? I
> > > don't wish to be insulting, but the only possibilities that
> come to
> > > mind are perhaps China, or North Korea, and maybe South Korea
> to an
> > > extent, because of North Korea - but at least they have a real
> enemy> > (and the last thing they want is to fight it out). Food
> for thought,
> > > no?
> > >
> > > One then has to ask, where else in the world does the military get
> > > such a grotesquely huge slice of the budget? (China? North Korea?)
> > > Especially of such a huge budget. And why? The Cold War ended 15
> > > years ago. Grotesque?
> > >
> > > >... U.S. military spending, in billions of dollars per day: 1.08
> > > >
> > > >Ratio of U.S. military spending to the combined military
> budgets of
> > > >Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria: 26 to 1
> > > >
> > > >Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in
> 1985: 31
> > > >
> > > >Percentage of U.S. share of total global military spending in
> 2000: 36
> > >
> > > Yes, grotesque. Is this something to be admired?
> > >
> > > Look at these figures:
> > >
> > > Debt relief for the 20 worst affected countries would cost
> between US
> > > $5.5 billion to $7.7 billion, less than the cost of ONE stealth
> > > bomber.
> > >
> > > Basic education for all would cost $6 billion a year;
> > > - $8 billion is spent annually for cosmetics in the United
> States alone.
> > >
> > > Installation of water and sanitation for all would cost $9 billion
> > > plus some annual costs;
> > > - $11 billion is spent annually on ice cream in Europe.
> > >
> > > Reproductive health services for all women would cost $12
> billion a year;
> > > - $12 billion a year is spent on perfumes in Europe and the
> United States.
> > >
> > > Basic health care and nutrition would cost $13 billion;
> > > - $17 billion a year is spent on pet food in Europe and the
> United States.
> > >
> > > $35 billion is spent on business entertainment in Japan;
> > > $50 billion on cigarettes in Europe;
> > > $105 billion on alcoholic drinks in Europe;
> > > $400 billion on narcotic drugs around the world; and
> > > $780 billion on the world's militaries.
> > >
> > > -- From: Globalization Facts and Figures
> > > http://learningpartnership.org/facts/global.phtml
> > >
> > > It's not something to be admired. Yet Americans are so proud
> of it.
> > >
> > > A majority of Americans thinks the US spends 24% of its budget on
> > > foreign aid instead of the actual figure, less than 1% - and
> most of
> > > that is "tied" to direct US benefit. And then there's this:
> > >
> > > http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8888.htm
> > > $1 trillion missing : Military waste under fire
> > > 05/18/05 "San Francisco Chronicle"
> > > (Among other things, they LOST 56 airplanes, 32 tanks, and 36
> Javelin> > missile command launch-units.)
> > >
> > > Grotesque and bizarre.
> > >
> > > I'm not "bashing" the US, I'm not even trying to stop the
> discussion> > - please, go ahead, thrash it out, no problem. But
> please be aware of
> > > how peculiarly American it is. Pondering that a bit might add some
> > > perspective which might otherwise be lacking.
> > >
> > > A couple of other things to ponder. Vietnam vets, or some of them
> > > anyway, seem to have a rather different view of military
> service. I'm
> > > reminded of a previous discussion here involving Vietnam vets when
> > > one of them boasted about the Purple Heart he'd won. Have a
> look in
> > > the archives if you like.
> > >
> > > Why are benefits for soldiers' families being cut, and those for
> > > disabled soldiers too, IIRC, even as their numbers are
> soaring? Does
> > > the government they serve accord them the same respect their
> fellow> > Americans do? Are they perhaps just dispensable cannon-
> fodder, to be
> > > cashed in for a few votes or for the sake of a suspect
> ideology or
> > > perhaps for Haliburton's bottom line? Is all this respect perhaps
> > > making such things a lot easier than they should be? Is it
> misplaced?> > Is the military and military service a false sacred
> cow? How many US
> > > lawmakers have sons or daughters serving with the military in
> Iraq?> > One, wasn't it?
> > >
> > > Best wishes
> > >
> > > Keith
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