Hi Keith, You're probably right. I just have the fear that someone will kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll be seized on by the forces of darkness. If training were available, or we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel Board) and do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a real service. I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other Goverments, and to lobby to counter the anit-BD and biofuels people. This group could also provide training courses and certify trainers. Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet drivers. I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.
In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have far more experience and standing than I do. I guess I'm a Nervous Nellie sometimes. I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and why. Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from there. As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with. I spent years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when. That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves? Yup. I don't brew inside anymore, though. I finally built a shed for that, with good ventilation. Your JTF pages are good. I wouldn't add much. I have a punch list I give to people but you pretty much cover everything. Thanks, Mike Keith Addison wrote: >>Better to be over-cautious than under-cautious. >> >> > >I know what you're saying Mike, but I don't agree. Maybe you wouldn't >either if you saw all the emails I've had from people shying away >from brewing biodiesel because of all those dreadful chemicals. Maybe >if the playing field was level, without the constant attempts to stir >it up by various parties mainly in the SVO-PPO) camp, but I think >even then I'd stick to due caution, neither under nor over. > > > >>I wish we could set up a training series and teach interested parties >>how to brew safely. I dread the thought than someone will >>make an avoidable error and taint the home-brewing scenario. >> >> > >We've all had that fear for years, and biofuels doesn't have any >shortage of enemies who'd make the most of it. Yet in all that time >nobody's been hurt that we know of, and I think we'd have known. Tom >Leue famously burnt his shed down, for entirely avoidable reasons, >and was slightly injured, and that's it. Extraordinary. Which doesn't >mean it won't happen tomorrow. > > > >>If I wrote a quick safety punchlist would the greybeards on the list >>look it over - if approved maybe Keith would post it on the website? >> >> > >Sure, but have a look at these first: > >Safety >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#safe > >Hazards >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#haz > >Best > >Keith > > > > >>I >>have some informal points in my biodiesel notebook that could probably >>be expanded. >> >>-Mike >> >>Keith Addison wrote: >> >> >> >>>We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some >>>other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much >>>safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due* >>>caution, which needs good information. Here it is: >>> >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth >>> >>>More about methanol >>> >>>Question: Just how dangerous is methanol? >>> >>>Fact: Methanol is a poisonous chemical that can blind you or kill >>>you, and as well as drinking it you can absorb it through the skin >>>and breathe in the fumes. >>> >>>Question: How much does it take to kill you? >>> >>>Short answer: Anything from five teaspoons to more than half a pint, >>>but nobody really knows. >>> >>>Fact: Human susceptibility to the acute effects of methanol >>>intoxication is extremely variable. The minimum dose of methanol >>>causing permanent visual defects is unknown. The lethal dose of >>>methanol for humans is not known for certain. The minimum lethal dose >>>of methanol in the absence of medical treatment is put at between 0.3 >>>and 1 g/kg. >>> >>>That means it's thought to take at least 20 grams of methanol to kill >>>an average-sized person, or 25 ml, five teaspoonsful. Or it might >>>need more than three times as much, 66 grams, 17 teaspoonsful, or >>>maybe more, and even then it'll only kill you if you can't reach a >>>doctor within a day or two, and maybe it still won't kill you. >>> >>>But it definitely can kill you. If you drink five teaspoonsful of >>>pure methanol you'll need medical treatment even if it doesn't kill >>>you. Yet people have survived doses of 10 times as much -- a quarter >>>of a litre, half a pint -- without any permanent harm. But others >>>haven't survived much lower doses. Getting rapid medical attention is >>>crucial, though the poisoning effects can be slow to develop. >>> >>>Authorities advise that swallowing up to 1.3 grams or 1.7 ml of >>>methanol or inhaling methanol vapour concentrations below 200 ppm >>>should be harmless for most people. No severe effects have been >>>reported in humans of methanol vapour exposures well above 200 ppm. >>> >>>Out of 1,601 methanol poisonings reported in the US in 1987 the death >>>rate was 0.375%, or 1 in 267 cases. It might have been only 1 in more >>>than a thousand cases because most cases weren't reported. Most cases >>>were caused by drinking badly made moonshine, which is a worldwide >>>problem. >>> >>>Fiction: "Methanol is ... a very active chemical against which the >>>human body has no means of defence. It is absorbed easily through the >>>skin and there is no means of elimination from the body, so levels of >>>methanol dissolved in the blood accumulate." >>> >>>That's from a British website trying to sell Straight Vegetable Oil >>>(SVO) solvent additives by frightening people with the alleged perils >>>of biodiesel. See The SVO vs biodiesel argument >>> >>>Fact: 30 litres of fruit juice will probably contain up to 20 grams >>>of methanol, near the official minimum lethal dose. Methanol is in >>>the food we eat, in fresh fruit and vegetables, beer and wine, diet >>>drinks, artificial sweeteners. >>> >>>Not only that, methanol occurs naturally in humans. It's a natural >>>component of blood, urine, saliva and the air you breathe out. It's >>>there anyway even if you've never been exposed to chemical methanol >>>or its fumes. >>> >>>Methanol is eliminated from the body as a normal matter of course via >>>the urine and exhaled air and by metabolism. Getting rid of it takes >>> >>> >>>from a few hours for low doses to a day or two for higher doses. Some >> >> >>>proportion of a dose of methanol just goes straight through, excreted >>>by the lungs and kidneys unchanged. The normal background-level >>>quantities of methanol in humans are eliminated and replenished all >>>the time as a matter of course. >>> >>>Fiction: It's largely biodiesel's methanol content that's being >>>blamed when the same British SVO website charges that biodiesel is >>>wasteful and environmentally irresponsible. >>> >>>Fact: Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both >>>aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide >>>variety of conditions. >>> >>>Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. >>> >>>Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, >>>which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. >>> >>>Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and >>>it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) >>> >>>Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. >>>Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be >>>expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels >>>of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental >>>effects. >>> >>>Fiction: A European SVO fuel website using similar anti-biodiesel >>>tactics claims: "Biodiesel is a chemically altered plant oil. However >>>the process to chemically change the structure of Pure Plant Oil is a >>>very costly operation and requires a lot of energy, as it removes the >>>glycerine substituting it by methanol as well as adding other >>>chemicals, making the end-product poisonous and equally hazardous as >>>fossil diesel fuel." >>> >>>Fact: There is no free methanol in washed biodiesel. All the national >>>standards require washing. According to US EPA studies methyl esters >>>biodiesel is less toxic than table salt and more biodegradable than >>>sugar. It has none of the toxic or environmental hazards of fossil >>>diesel fuel. >>> >>>To put it all in some perspective, methanol is the main or only >>>ingredient in barbecue fuel or fondue fuel, sold in supermarkets and >>>chain stores as "stove fuel" and used at the dinner table. It's also >>>the main ingredient in the fuel kids use in their model aero engines. >>> >>>Yes, methanol is a dangerous chemical, but quite how dangerous it may >>>be is a little hard to say, and it causes surprisingly little harm. >>>If you're careful and sensible and treat it with caution it won't >>>harm you either. Many thousands of biodiesel homebrewers worldwide >>>have been using it for years without serious mishap. >>> >>>In our view, the difference between methanol and the really dangerous >>>chemicals is that although methanol is poisonous, it's a natural >>>chemical, you'd find it in the Garden of Eden too. It's not something >>>nature's simply never heard of before and has no way of handling and >>>neither do you, unlike too many of the 100,000-odd "new" chemicals >>>now in use which aren't readily biodegradable and do accumulate, and >>>spread, and keep being implicated in cancer clusters and bizarre >>>sexual distortions of frogs and so on and on and on. >>> >>>There are no reports of carcinogenic, genotoxic, reproductive or >>>developmental effects in humans due to methanol exposure. Its >>>environmental effects if any are minimal and short-lived. >>> >>>Biodieselers can and do use methanol safely and the biodiesel fuel we >>>make from it is safe and clean. >>> >>>-- With information from: United Nations Environment Programme / >>>International Labour Organisation / World Health Organization: >>>International Programme On Chemical Safety, Environmental Health >>>Criteria 196 - Methanol, from IPCS INCHEM, "Chemical Safety >>>Information from Intergovernmental Organizations", in cooperation >>>with the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety (CCOHS) >>>http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc196.htm >>> >>>See also: >>> >>>Safety (MSDS) data for methyl alcohol >>>http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methyl_alcohol.html >>> >>>Methanol MSDS >>>http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSMethanol.html >>> >>>Methanol as a plant nutrient >>> >>>"Methanol is a fixed-carbon nutrient source for plants." -- From >>>"Agriculture and Methanol", Chapter 7, Methanol Production and Use, >>>ed. Wu-Hsun Cheng and Harold H. Kung, ISBN 0-8247-9223-8, 1994 (10th >>>printing) >>> >>>"Methanol treatments of C3 plants [most food crops] have been found >>>to result in growth improvement... As a plant source of carbon, >>>methanol is a liquid concentrate: 1 cc of methanol provides the >>>equivalent fixed-carbon substrate of over 2,000,000 cc of ambient >>>air... Methanol treatments are a means of placing carbon directly >>>into the foliage... The application of 10-100% methanol to some crops >>>increased photosynthetic productivity... The uptake of methanol by >>>plants in light leaves no significant residual methanol above >>>baseline as detectable by chromotography within 15-30 minutes of >>>penetration. Treatment with methanol is therefore an inexpensive, >>>safe, and effective means of providing plants with a source of fixed >>>carbon and carbon dioxide... An economical means of inhibition of >>>photorespiration has been sought for decades, and methanol may well >>>provide the solution... The control of photorespiration across the >>>food crops of the world could double yields." -- Greg Harbican and >>>Peter G., Biofuel mailing list, 8 Sep 2004. For discussion see: >>>http://snipurl.com/j94f >>>Methanol and Plants >>>http://snipurl.com/j94e >>>Use for wash water - methanol >>> >>>Note however that the authors of Methanol Production and Use caution >>>that the application of methanol to crops still requires further >>>study before we all "rush out to spray methanol". >>> >>>Most of the excess methanol used in the biodiesel process ends up in >>>the glycerine by-product layer, and the rest stays in the biodiesel. >>>If you don't reclaim it for re-use (you should!) the portion that's >>>in the biodiesel gets washed out when you wash the fuel, mostly with >>>the first wash. The first wash-water probably won't contain more than >>>5-6% methanol (as well as some sodium or potassium lye and some >>>soap). You could try spraying it on half a small patch of weeds and >>>don't spray the other half to see what happens. Choose a bright sunny >>>day. >>> >>>ends... >>> >>>Best >>> >>>Keith >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Methanol is readily absorbed through the skin. I have used it >>>>around the house as a solvent for years and yes the odd little drip >>>>on your skin won't hurt but for anything more than that you should >>>>use protection. Inhaling the vapors should be avoided. As for >>>>methoxide you should be taking great care to avoid exposure period. >>>> >>>>Joe >>>> >>>>Ken Provost wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Nov 29, 2005, at 1:04 PM, Kenji James Fuse wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>What do others use for hand protection from methanol and methoxide? Do >>>>>>neoprene gloves provide adequate enough protection from methanol and >>>>>>methoxide? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>I realize this is sacrilege, but I don't use ANY >>>>>PROTECTION!!!!!........ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I find the methanol evaporates very quickly from my hands, leaving >>>>>no ill effects (yet :-)) except a certain "chappiness" that can be >>>>>remedied with various OTC preparations (hand lotion). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Methoxide solution spilled on the hands has a tendency to produce >>>>>a slight burning sensation after a couple of minutes that can be >>>>>neutral- >>>>>ized instantly with running water. >>>>> >>>>>Really. >>>>> >>>>>-K >>>>> >>>>> > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
