John, sorry, I guess I was too slow - as far as I understand you have now re-read the 13-08 proposal, which has made my last Email redundant.
https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Wikidata_talk:Wiktionary/Development/Proposals/2015-05&diff=216035102&oldid=216029531 I hope that the model is clear now. Thanks for your engagement! Denny On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 12:20 PM Denny Vrandečić <vrande...@gmail.com> wrote: > Daniel's answer fits exactly with the proposal (which is unsurprising, > because he reviewed and certainly influenced it). > > To make it clear again: the proposal on > > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary/Development/Proposals/2015-05 > is a proposal for the tasks that need to be performed. Your questions are > mostly about the data model, which was discussed earlier in the following > proposal: > > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Wiktionary/Development/Proposals/2013-08 > > Since I am not sure which questions remain open, I will try to address > them here again, on the risk of repeating what has been said before. > Unfortunately you seem to not use the terminology as defined in the second > proposal linked above, which makes the discussion unnecessarily harder than > it could be. If you prefer another terminology, I would be happy if you > link to a one pager describing it, so that we can effectively communicate. > > > How do we go from a spelled form of a lexeme at Wiktionary and to an > > identifier > on Wikidata? > > If with "spelled form of a lexeme at Wiktionary" you mean a Form as per > the proposal, then the answer is: Forms have statements, and statements may > point to Items, Forms, Senses, Lexemes, etc.. The exact properties to be > used in these statements are up to the community. > > If with "spelled form of a lexeme at Wiktionary" you mean Lexeme as per > the proposal, than the answer is: Lexems have statements, and statements > may point to Items, Forms, Senses, Lexemes, etc. The exact properties to > be used in these statements are up to the community. > > This is already stated in the second link above. > > > And how do we go from one Sense to another synonym Sense? > > A Sense has a set of statements, and statements may point to other Senses. > The exact properties used are up to the community. So a statement with the > property 'synonym' stated on a Sense could point to another Sense. > > > Do we use statements? > > Yes. > > > But then only the L-identifiers can be used, so we will link them at > the Lexeme level.. > > No. As the second link above says, Senses and Forms also have Statements. > It is not only Lexemes that have Statements. > > > > Wiktionary is organized around homonyms while Wikipedia is organized around > synonyms, especially across languages, and I think this difference > creates some of the problems. > > Yes, that is why Tasks 1, 2, 9 and 10 in the proposal for the task > breakdown, the first link above, deal with exactly this question. > > Since Gerard stated that his question was subsumed by the above list, I > hope that his question is also answered? > > I am afraid that I could not write a new proposal which is significantly > clearer than the current, but I can keep answering questions. But all the > questions you have asked seem to be explicitly answered in the two links > given above. Since I know you are smart, I am wondering what is not working > in the communication right now. Did you miss the first link? Because > without that it is indeed hard to fully understand the second link (but the > first link is already given in the second link). > > So, please, keep asking questions. And everyone else too. I would like to > continue improving the proposals based on your questions and suggestions. > > > > On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 3:46 PM John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Your description is pretty far from whats in the proposal right now. >> The proposal is not clear at all, so I would say update it and >> resubmit if for a new discussion. >> >> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Daniel Kinzler >> <daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de> wrote: >> > Am 15.05.2015 um 01:11 schrieb John Erling Blad: >> >> How do we go from a spelled form of a lexeme at Wiktionary and to an >> >> identifier on Wikidata? >> > >> > What do you mean by "go to"? And what do you mean by "identifier on >> Wikidata" - >> > Items, Lexemes, Senses, or Forms? >> > >> > Generally, Wiktionary currently combines words with the same rendering >> from >> > different languages on a single page. So a single Wiktionary page would >> > correspond to several Lexeme entries on Wikidata, since Lexemes on >> wikidata >> > would be split per language. >> > >> > I suppose a Lexeme-Entry could be linked back to the corresponding >> pages on the >> > various Wiktionaries, but I don't really see the value of that, and >> sitelinks >> > are currently not planned for Lexeme entries. It probably makes more >> sense for >> > the Wiktionary pages to explicitly reference the Wikidata-Lexeme that >> > corresponds to each language-section on the page. >> > >> >> And how do we go from one Sense to another >> >> synonym Sense? Do we use statements? But then only the L-identifiers >> >> can be used, so we will link them at the Lexeme level.. >> > >> > Why can only L-Identifiers be used? Senses (and Forms) are entities and >> have >> > identifiers. They wouldn't have a wiki-page of their own, but that's >> not a >> > problem. The intention is that it's possible for one Sense to have a >> statement >> > referring directly to another Sense (of the same or a different Lexeme). >> > >> >> Wiktionary is organized around homonyms while Wikipedia is organized >> >> around synonyms, especially across languages, and I think this >> >> difference creates some of the problems. >> > >> > The Lexeme-Part of Wikidata (L-ids) would be separate from the >> Concept-part of >> > Wikidata (Q-ids). The Lexeme part is organized around homonyms (more >> precisely, >> > homographs in a single language). Each Lexeme can have several "Senses" >> modeled >> > as "sub-entities", meaning that each Sense has its own set of >> Statements. Each >> > Sense can be linked to Senses of other Lexemes (explicit synonyms or >> > translations) and to Q-id concepts (implicit synonyms or translations) >> using >> > Statements. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Daniel Kinzler >> > Senior Software Developer >> > >> > Wikimedia Deutschland >> > Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikidata-l mailing list >> > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >
_______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
