Gustin Johnson wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >> Hi :) >> >> I'm ambivalent if I should waste my time or the time of any Linux coder. >> >> > Your choice. > > >> The latest mails I got offlist because of my unwanted suggestions on >> other mailing lists, e.g. JACK dev list, are not only discrediting me, >> but also MIDI. I wonder if developer of important basics, that means for >> the kernel, ALSA and JACK are interested in fixing Jitter. Another issue >> > > They will need to be able to reproduce it on their systems. I know the > APIC in your motherboard has issues, so you will have to at the top of > your game when reporting bugs. >
Which issues? I don't know the issues. I heard from you that the M2A-VM HDMI should be bad for Linux and I often heard that Intel boards should be fine, maybe that's why I know people with Intel boards having the same trouble I've got and maybe that's why I had troubles with my older board too. I guess even if I should go away from all Linux audio lists and stop trying to use Linux for audio coders like Chris and Rui would like to know known issues about ACPI on some boards, so that they don't waste their time by trying to fix something that's caused by a mobo. Please be fair and report Rui that issues, so that he don't waste time to help me, to fix something, that can't be fixed. By the way, I included hwinfo outputs to my reports, saying what hardware I'm using, you didn't read my reports correctly. >> is, that they still deceive their self that Linux should be 100% >> professional for recording, mixing and mastering. Until now no OS or >> > > See, there you go with flame bait. I would have thought that you would > have learned by now. > This is a flame bait? Sorry, lets go on on German, it must be because of my broken English. >> digital stand alone equipment is 100% professional, there are still a >> lot of studios using analogue equipment. Okay, I'm a blabber, but please >> take a look at Wiki, e.g. at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering: >> >> > A lot of stuff gets murdered in the final stages anyway, regardless of > the equipment: > http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t27691.html > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ&annotation_id=annotation_836874&feature=iv > http://www.geekrants.com/articles/mastering.html > > Just google for "mastering volume wars" to get more examples. > Please talk to some 'audiophile' person and have a flamware with 'him'. Neither for digital, nor for analogue 'a lot of stuff gets murdered'. This is something I wasn't talking about. >> "There are mastering engineers who feel that digital technology, as of >> 2007, has not progressed enough in quality to supersede analog >> technology entirely. Many top mastering studios, including Bernie >> Grundman Mastering (which has mastered 37 Grammy-nominated albums), and >> Gateway Mastering, still embrace analog signal processing (such as >> analog equalization) within the mastering process. Additionally, the >> latest advances in analog mastering technology include 120V signal rails >> for previously unavailable headroom of 150dB as well as frequency >> response ranging from 3 Hz to 300 kHz.[citation needed] In order to >> duplicate this frequency response in digital domain, a sampling rate of >> at least 600 kHz would be required, by the Nyquist�Shannon sampling >> theorem. However, it is pertinent that the extremes in this frequency >> range (3 Hz - 300 kHz), are effectively inaudible, existing outside the >> range of both the human ear and most professional microphones." >> >> This are the experiences I made when I was engineer for Brauner. I don't >> think it's relevant for home-recording and I guess most of us will do >> home-recording or semi-pro work, but facing the truth is important for >> progress. >> > > The "pros" screw up regularly as well (see above). A bad tradesman > blames his tools. The "truth" is, a gifted person could take flawed > tools and make something beautiful. I don't actually buy in to the > analogue vs digital debate. Between the gratuitous use of autotune and > the volume wars, most of the "pro" produced stuff is crap IMO. > I'm not a fan of mainstream, but this isn't true. I don't like all that 'exciter' and mainstream Dolby licence stuff, but even if we will talk about mainstream, listen to Bruce Sweden and Al Schmitt. Once I was in a studio at Sender Berlin with Al Schmitt, if you say that those people do crap, you don't have any knowledge about recording. >> Another issue that makes me feel pissed is, that it's not wanted to have >> many users, because Linux isn't proprietary, but not to have many users >> is the reason why hardware companies don't take enough care to fit to Linux. >> >> > It is actually way more complicated than this. Also complicating things > is that a large number of ends users does not actually gain much in the > Open Source community since something of value rarely comes from this > group. In the proprietary world they at least pay, but in the open > source world this does not occur with any regularity. As I see it, the > only people who actually matter are contributers (coders, documenters, > testers, financiers, etc.). This may piss you off, but I am a firm > believer in TANSTAAFL. I know I said this earlier today, but I think it > is worth repeating. > > >> I wonder if >> >> 1. there is an interest to include a working MIDI, even if MIDI is e.g. >> > > For my uses of MIDI to date over the past decade, it does indeed work. > Statements like this are inflammatory, but you know this. The problem > is that you and I currently have a different definition of "working > MIDI". You need to learn to engage others and get them to be excited > about your vision. > > >> "anachronistische Sondermuell" (anachronistical hazardous waste) like a >> Linux coder wrote offlist. >> >> > This means very little to me. What I can say is that it seems that you > did a very poor job in enrolling this "Linux coder" (whatever that > means) in your cause. Until you learn how to do this, expect failure as > this is how the world works, not just Open Source. > I know this extreme kind of trouble only for FLOSS on Linux, not for FLOSS in general and not for life in general. >> 2. there is an interest in facing the truth abaout digital recording and >> digital recording using Linux . >> >> > What is this truth? Arbitrarily limitations imposed by my software > (Cubase is 2.1, but Nuendo is 7.1, at least that was the situation when > I left that world behind). This argument cuts both ways. Truth is a > pretty dangerous word. It implies certainty which is a far more rare > thing than you might think. I think you may have more success if you > stay away from polarizing statements like this. > > Again, all you did is make some reference to some vague problem, What information do you need that it isn't vague any more Gustin? Is my problem with jitter vague for you Rui? Don't get me wrong, I don't want a statement if Gustin is right or not, I only want to know if I need to describe something better than I did until now. I thought everybody understand the trouble with jitter. But I'm wrong?! > and all > that will happen is that you piss someone off. You may actually be > experiencing a real problem, but statements like this do absolutely > nothing except start flame wars, and get your reports ignored. If your > goal is to get something fixed, *you* failed, not anyone else because > failure is the only possible outcome when you say things like this. You > know this because this is something like the 5th or 6th time we have had > this exact conversation. You are wasting time, and I *know* that you > can do better. > > >> 3. there is an interest in making Linux popular enough to make companies >> taking care about Linux, to get drivers. >> >> > All that can be done is being done here. Greg Kroah-Hartman even has an > open invitation to hardware manufacturers offering to write drivers for > them, even under an NDA. So, basically, he will find someone to write > the driver, at no cost, willing to sign an NDA. No one else, not Apple, > not Microsoft, not Windriver, not QNX, will do this. At the end of the > day the manufacturers get to make that choice, and we get to choose what > to buy. The ball is in their court. > > >> *?* >> >> Some people like e.g. Rui are interested in solving MIDI jitter, but I >> got more emails offline, that I'm not wanted and that MIDI per se is >> unwanted, they say e.g. jitter makes MIDI becoming more natural. >> >> > In some cases this is actually true. I add random jitter to my hydrogen > tracks. I think the key here is that we want to choose and control this > as opposed to having it always present, unless of course the underlying > hardware is the fault. > The issue about the hardware is much more interesting for me, than all the rest we are discussing here. What are the issues for my hardware I or we should take care for? Indeed, I get load for nothing when using Linux and less load when using Windows, but it is the same for my old board. I don't say it's the bad of Linux, it's something that is that way for my board and I also know some other people having similar troubles, but it can't be isolated to a manufacturer for the CPUs, mobos etc., even the chipsets are completely different. >> Is there a chance for Linux audio and MIDI? >> >> > I am confidant that if there is a problem, it will get fixed. Again, > you say things in exactly the wrong way if your goal is to actually help > make things better. > > It is possible that no one is actually interested in fixing MIDI > problems. For this I can say at least Rui is. > I do not believe this to be the case, but the developers of > all these projects do get to choose what they work on. If they make > choices different from what you would like, you have several choices > available to you, such as going elsewhere, offering a bounty for certain > goals/tasks/bugs, sweet talking a developer into changing their minds. > I am sure that someone as creative as you can think of even more. > Do you think coders are interested in exporting dbus to other OSs, if they do cross programming? Do we need dbus for JACK? Do we need Pulsaudio for audio productions? I guess there will be more people who wish to have less MIDI jitter than Pulseaudio for rt-audio on Linux. Maybe my style is bad, but the question if coders will work to fit rt-audio to desktop environments that are used to watch YouTube videos and that supports funny sounds for each action a window does, or if they will work on issues like MIDI jitter is important to me. >> By the way, I also get a lot of emails offlist from users who still use >> Linux for day-to-day work, but not for audio work any more, they changed >> to Apple or Microsoft. >> >> > Their choice. Anecdotal evidence is not useful. If something is not > working for them, and they are not willing to put any effort in to > helping resolve the issue, then why should they expect someone else to > fix their problems for them? I guess some had a style that's different to mine, but however, nobody helped them, resp. it's not only that they asked for help, they also helped by giving bug reports, so I like to say, no coder ever said 'thank you for helping me' to them. I'm not inventing imaginary people, just take a look at the archives, maybe you notice people who never were involved in a flamewars, who always were correct and then disappeared. My mileage vary, I'm often dissed, but I also get thanks for bug reports. > Again remember that you want someone else > to make something work for you, for free, on their own time. No, I can simply change the OS. Yes, I would like to get help, but FLOSS only works when people don't need to pay to send a coder bug reports. Even for proprietary software you don't need to pay someone to give bug reports. And you can't say that someone like Paul Davis gets to less money. !!! It's not me who started talking about this. !!! I'm fine if any coder gets as much money he wants to have. I only will say that I don't want to pay them, nobody pays me for my free work. And as I said some time ago, some people might use Lnux without giving back to the Linux community, but instead e.g. they are helping suffering asylum seekers for free. What has that all to do with my utterances? > The key is > to get them to *want* to help you. You have consistently failed in this > regard, and yes this failure is yours. This is part of that > responsibility thing I keep telling you about. > > >> Why is there the need to talk about that offlist and keep up appearances >> on the lists? >> >> > I am willing to speak on the record. I cannot say why others would > choose not to. You would have to ask them. I do not believe that > appearances are being kept as you put it. More accurately I would say > that I see no evidence to suggest this. If people are keeping their > thoughts to themselves, what do they expect? Nothing is going to > change unless people participate. Gustin, I hope we can keep this as a change of views ;). Cheers, Ralf -- Secret of Tux: http://images.wallaceandgromit.com/user_uploads/forum_thumbnails/5/75/355.jpg "Gromit bit me" says HMV dog: http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/03_03/GomitHMVPA_468x319.jpg _______________________________________________ 64studio-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
