I have the same view about Vista that I did when Visual Studio 2005 came out.... it doesn't feel right. I'm now reminded of the virtual stand-still the text editor in VS2005 can exhibit. I'm having a similar pseudo-freeze with Vista and the file system/program installations. Things get hung for no apparent reason, with no post-facto explanation. Makes bug submission impossible if repro is insisted upon because the problems , frequent that they are, don't have a observable pattern.
-----Original Message----- From: Discussion of advanced .NET topics. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Ritchie Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:49 AM To: ADVANCED-DOTNET@DISCUSS.DEVELOP.COM Subject: Re: [ADVANCED-DOTNET] has there been a service pack for .net 2.0? Excellent points Frans. I'm not disputing the quality of Visual Studio (I'm always trying to point things out whenever I talk to folks at MS). Whenever I start working in an new-to-me area of Visual Studio 2005 I'm always bogged down with issues (bugs, quirks, unintuitive UI, etc, etc.). And I TRY to log all the issues on Connect but sometimes there's just too many for me to deal with at once. Believe me, I'm just as frustrated as you. If you have sensitive ears you don't want to be around me when I find a new defect in Visual Studio. Microsoft isn't going to respond here either, unfortunately. But, as a software developer, since I'm busy working on many different things, I know I'm not likely to listen to someone about an defect unless 1) reproducible steps are included, and 2) they've coherently documented it (all assuming I don't have face-to-face contact with the person). So, I know I can't expect anything to change with Visual Studio unless I give all the information I would expect from someone... And yes, it drives me up the wall when I do spend the time doing that only to get a reply "it's a breaking change to fix that...". One of the other problems is with the way MS releases product. It seems they have a great group of folks working on ver. 1 of a product then squeeze it out just above some bar (lower than where my bar is, apparently) then all those folks bugger off to other projects and no original devs. seems to work on maintaining the product. I feel the main engineers on a product should be forced to continue on the team until at least SP1 is released for a product. Yes, maintenance work sucks; but that part of the job! It doesn't help much when MS shifts their focus to other things. LINQ/DLING, C# 3.0, Orcas, etc. all great technologies; but get the fundamentals working first! I find it extremely telling the types of C# changes that are coming out of the LINQ effort. I get involved with the chats. Often the people developing the product, or are responsible for those who do, attend these chats. Bringing up issues in the chats usually gets someone's attention. Failing that, I know Anson Horton is spearheading some of the performance fixes to Visual Studio. I've been meaning to send him a list of my gripes (performance- related) but I haven't had the time. Charlie Calvert seems to have a responsive ear as well. I've thought there should be some sort of independent Visual Studio user's advocacy organization, possibly with close ties to the user's groups. But, I haven't followed up on it... Error Window: What sort of HTML error, if I close the Error window and type in some invalid html I get the squiggled underline but the Error window doesn't force itself visible... Designers: I hear you. It's like they didn't spend any time thinking about "normal" usage scenarios--and concentrated on "Demo" or "academic" usage scenarios. Clearly they don't do enough regression testing. SP1 Beta, prefast was completely broken! I'm also convinced OMP support is broken in SP1 too. Also, if you have the time, can you post back the connect IDs or URLs that you've mentioned? If enough people vote for them they will reopen it... It's long and frustrating to get things done; but, I'm convinced the Visual Studio team is simply overwhelmed with issues. On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:14:55 +0100, Frans Bouma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >DISCLAIMER: I don't care if there are bugs in a piece of software as there are always bugs in software. What I care about is the >lack of fixes for a bug. > >> There's many designer issues logged on >> http://connect.microsoft.com/visualstudio/feedback. Some are feature >> requests (like support for forms/controls using generics or abstract base >> classes) but hardly any seem to be of any importance to anyone other than >> the person that logged it. If the issues that have been raised in this >> thread are important to anyone reading it they should make their voice >> heard on the feedback site by voting for these issues. Searching for the >> words "forms designer" shows a very large list of issues (some >> suggestions, some bugs) but the only issues that have more than a couple >> of votes seem only to be feature requests (again, abstracts and generics >> in the forms designer). From Microsoft's point of view the community is >> saying most of the issues described in this thread aren't important. > > Well, if Microsoft doesn't respond, why should I log more issues on connect? I waited for more than a YEAR to get even a >small REPLY on a very basic designer flaw in vs.net and they even responded with 'By design' (hint: this is an IDE crash. Throw an >exception in a method called from a smarttag in designer view: Poof. So 'by design' ?) or 'postponed'. No offence but that's really >not motivating me to log a lot of issues. > > Another reasons why there aren't a lot of issues logged are that the site isn't widely known, requires a passport to login, >and often people simply accept it as a way of life how vs.net works. > > I have a form in my application I can't design anymore in vs.net 2005, because the forms designer throws an exception in the >goo IT GENERATED ITSELF (it forgets to insert an instantiation for a usercontrol). > > In the webform designer I have major problems with my own datasourcecontrols when I ask VS.NET for a set of types available >in the solution. (Lhotka experienced the same stuff, with is csla datasourcecontrols) Often VS.NET gives up and reports NO TYPES >because the control's assembly is in another appdomain than the solution (done by vs.net, I have no control over this)(tempfiles >mismatch, I have no idea what causes this, but it's a major pain). To fix it, you have to close the forms, close vs.net, restart >vs.net, load the solution, BUILD, open the form in html view, open the form in visual view. > > web projects, the new variant: typing HTML and making an error will open the errors window, even if it's closed. This is >major annoying and I can't get rid of it. > > Writing your own controls for web: add them to the toolbox. Test them, ok some things have to be updated: you go back to the >control project, change code, compile... and the vs.net toolbox ones aren't updated! You've to wade through a lot of steps, which >consume unnecessary time, to get the next build up so you can even drag it on the webform. > > Ever did some winforms with your own user controls? Was it fun? I bet you ran into a lot of problems as everybody else with >that setup. > > Perhaps I do things no-one else does, but I seriously doubt it. It's just a set of annoying things which pile up to a big >annoyance. > > In november 2005 (!) I reported to Microsoft that if you had a file with > 1000 lines open in C#, typing was slow. A month >ago they released a hotfix for it. Do you know where to get it? perhaps. Do the major part of the C# developers know where to get >the hotfix or even know that after a year (!) they finally fixed it? I doubt it. They simply accept that the editor can be slow >sometimes or they're slow typers so they don't notice. ;) > >> The issue of performance toggling between code/design views is a big issue >> that the Visual Studio team is working on--it's one of the only bugs that >> has garnered a lot of votes (49 at last count). If you find or know of an >> issue on Connect you feel is important (or was raised in this thread), >> post the URL here (or the WinForms list if it's a WinForms designer issue) >> with a description so everyone else can vote on it--if it's important to >> them. It's clear that Microsoft is working on the bugs that the community >> has said are important on Connect. After that, they're working on the >> bugs they feel have a priority. > > I understand that people who write business apps run into different issues than people who write lowlevel frameworks on top >of .net. I'm in that last group and then the world is a little different than for the people who write business apps. Perhaps it's >also that I don't accept a lot of issues from VS.NET anymore, simply because they've spend the last 4, 5 years developing it, so you >could expect some things to be part of the past now. > > However, as things work inside MS, it's hard to get company wide understanding about this: new versions fix old versions >issues, BUGS are fixed by support teams, product teams work on new stuff, that's basicly the cycle, and we on the outside can jump >up and down and rant all day but that won't change. > > So we can only HOPE that PSS fixes the bugs soon and a new version fixes design flaws. > >> Discussing bugs in Visual Studio on these lists may get you advice on a >> workaround and allow you to blow off steam; but it won't get the bug fixed. > > What does help then? The only remedy I found how to get a bug fixed is by reporting it 2 days before a product launch: the >ide crash bug I ran into right before the vs.net 2005 launch was fixed very quickly. However everything after that wasn't and it >costs a lot of energy to get MS' attention to even address something. Considering how things are scheduled, it's understandable, >from their POV. Considering how much some issues can plague customers, it's also understandable people are getting fed up with it. > > It's just that there's still a large group of people who simply accepts the issues and waits for a slow form loader to >complete and repeats work already performed because there's no alternative apparently (they think). If more and more people would >vent their concern with the VERY SLOW cycle how Microsoft releases fixes, they might do something about it. > > FB > >=================================== >This list is hosted by DevelopMentorR http://www.develop.com > >View archives and manage your subscription(s) at http://discuss.develop.com =================================== This list is hosted by DevelopMentorR http://www.develop.com View archives and manage your subscription(s) at http://discuss.develop.com =================================== This list is hosted by DevelopMentor® http://www.develop.com View archives and manage your subscription(s) at http://discuss.develop.com
