Back to Kant - things exist as is- (as existent - phenomena) versus  in its
self ( as circumscribed by concept - the luminal) neither is meant to be
mistaken with how they come to be represented  (subjectively objectified) -
seemingly this endless discussion of the treacherous nature of language tends
to be rooted in a failure to remember language does not exist as a thing but
merely in itself as a means to represent (make present again) -  that means it
functions as a means to recall material and immaterial subject/objects

Sent from my iPhone
Please excuse grammar and spelling errors
Expect everything - fear nothing - or did I get that backwards
Saul ostrow
646 528 8537

On Jul 30, 2012, at 7:56 AM, William Conger <[email protected]> wrote:

> Your view seems to accept 'nature' as it is.  The artists of the so-called
Beaux
> Arts Style (capital S signifies that Style is a perceptual method) did not
> accept Nature as it is but sought to idealize it, to perfect it, according
to an
> imposed formal harmony.  Where that harmony comes from is the issue because
it
> may be -- for Beaux-Arts artists -- potentially present in Nature, it was
not
> explicitly present.  I came from the mind and it was divinely inspired, in
> accordance with God. An effort to make art in accordance with God's will or
plan
> or grace was moral and it was exemplified by significant form (idealized
form).
>
> The chief problem with your view "art moralizes nature; nature moralizes
art' is
> the absence of a definition of nature. Does this nature have a
consciousness? Is
> it God?  Is it reality?  And what is art if it can be separate from nature?
>
> Let's take the case of Constable.  Here was an artist who wanted to paint
nature
> as it is.  But of course he couldn't do that.  He had to re-arrange, select,
> exaggerate, abstract, invent, and yet in the end he made paintings that are
> 'natural, seemingly unidealized presentations of nature.  The same could be
said
> of Courbet. One could argue that both artists followed a 'significant form'
> theory and yet their art does not have the graceful artificiality of the
> Beaux-Arts Style. That art (Victoriana stuff and our friend Bouguereau) made
the
> most of linear harmony at the expense of natural complexity and the rough
> presence of nature (as in Constable or Courbet).  This both the nature of
> Constable and Courbet and the Style (as in Bouguereau) seem to satisfy your
> synthetic -- tautology? -- definition and the two kinds of art contradict
each
> other and both leave the notion of 'significant form' begging a stable
> definition, too.
>
> Cheerskep stands ready to swing his sword at any IS but any definition
requires
> an IS as a bridge from one thig to another.
> wc
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Michael Brady <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sun, July 29, 2012 8:16:29 PM
> Subject: Re: is list dead?
>
> On Jul 29, 2012, at 8:57 PM, William Conger <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Read my essay.  I argue that the word moral and its implications was
dropped
>> after the early modernists talked about formalist theory, art for art's
> sake,
>> the significant form, etc. but their ideas were precisely the same as
those
>> embedded in the Beaux-Arts Style.  In that way, the supposed break between
>> Beaux-Arts and modernism was as much manufactured as it was true, maybe
more
>> manufactured.  The art of the two types looks different but was it truly
>> different in fundamental theory?  Words like moral became taboo in serious
> art
>> talk.  But to say the same thing with other words, like 'significant form'
> was
>> accepted, and still is.
>
>
> I believe that all forms of art are exercises in imposing a moral order on
the
> exempla and models that Nature shows us. We humans declare this or that
> configuration in artistic works to be harmonious or unharmonious, pleasing
or
> displeasing, etc., **based on*** their supposed effects on our human
feelings
> and perceptions. We impute to the instances in Nature the ability to
engender
> those feelings of pleasure or displeasure in us. We say, for example, that
> certain lines or colors, sounds or movements in Nature are tranquil or
exited,
> and thereby instigate tranquil or excite states in us. We go further and
say
> that certain relationships and proportions are similarly conducive to good
or
> bad feelings (pleasing or displeasing proportions of a figure, of color
> combination, of chords or sounds and tempos in music, etc.).
>
> These become "canonical" terms, terms of judgment, and are applied in such
a
> way to define and even guide others in the proper or approved modes of
> appreciating. Consider in painting the different schemes of color harmony:
> direct complementary opposites, split complements, near neighbors, etc. The
> result is that eventually, every combination of colors is declared to be a
> form of "color harmony"--harmonies, btw, that the artist and vieweer are
> subject to but Nature is not! Nature does what it damn well pleases.
>
> At the very end of Annouilh's Beckett, one character says of Beckett, "With
> him it's not morality, it's aesthetics." Those two practices are not very
far
> apart.
>
>
> As I have said before, "Art moralizes nature; Nature demoralizes art."
>
> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
> Michael Brady
> www.michaelbradydesign.com/Blog/  |  [email protected]
> www.twitter.com/typehuile | www.linkedin.com/in/typehuile |
> www.facebook.com/typehuile
>
> "Thinking Like a Designer" at https://www.createspace.com/3462255 or
> http://snipurl.com/z43se

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