Matt,
That response works but I believe you also need to suggest options for
them to achieve the same thing like purchasing the USB ethernet adapter
for example.
I find customers like options or more than one choice.
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 11:52 AM Matt Hoppes
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Our answer:
I'm sorry but if you can't plug in to test we can send a tech out if
you're 100% certain there is an issue, but if it turns out to work fine
when plugged in there will be a $50 dispatch fee.
On 1/24/20 12:35 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
> Out of curiosity, what do you tell customers who say they don’t
own a
> computer? Not being hypothetical or argumentative, I am actually
> getting that maybe 50% of the time now.
>
> If they say their computer is a laptop without an Ethernet jack,
I tell
> them to buy a $5 Ethernet cable and a $20 USB-Ethernet dongle at
Best
> Buy for testing purposes. But I don’t have a good response to the
> people who have no computer at all, other than a truck roll to
test it
> ourselves, which of course is what we want to avoid unless
there’s an
> actual problem.
>
> *From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Darin Steffl
> *Sent:* Friday, January 24, 2020 11:22 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
>
> I think I replied what we tell customers. We don't support any
speedtest
> except what our guide says to do. I'll attach it here. This means no
> Google wifi tests or orbi, etc.
>
> We will still troubleshoot and check Calix for any performance
issues
> but if the complaint is simply a speedtest and we aren't getting
what we
> pay for, we send them our guide and only accept results following it.
>
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020, 11:03 AM Ken Hohhof <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>
> Maybe start a new Calix thread? My original post was about the
> speedtest built into Google routers and if anyone knew how it
worked
> and whether it has accuracy problems.
>
> I dislike the Google/Nest routers and discourage customers from
> using them, but saying I should deploy Calix everywhere doesn’t
> really address my question which comes from customers reporting
> alleged problems reported by their Google automatic speedtests.
> That’s a little harder to troubleshoot than a customer calling
> because they are having trouble streaming Disney+ right now, or
> getting bad speedtest.net <http://speedtest.net>
<http://speedtest.net> results right now.
> It’s more like my Google report says I haven’t been getting
what I
> pay you for over the past couple weeks.
>
> Especially confusing, this customer claimed the bad results
started
> right around the time we added his tower to our Preseem system.
> That’s strange since we’ve been gradually rolling out Preseem
for a
> year now and it has made things better not worse. Also Preseem
> gives us lots of additional graphs which show this customer’s
speed
> and latency on real traffic has been picture perfect. If I
look at
> Google FAQs and blog posts regarding their speedtest, there
seems to
> be two variants. The M-Lab one appears to be quite old, with
some
> questionable approaches like single TCP connection and avoiding
> nearby servers, as well as currently undergoing a major TCP/IP
> algorithm change based on a change in philosophy regarding what
> constitutes congestion, and packet loss vs bufferbloat. But it
> sounds like the speedtest built into the Google routers may
test to
> Google servers, specifically Youtube.
>
> If built in automated speedtests are a trend, I expect to
hear more
> of these complaints. Even if you provide a managed “residential
> gateway” type of solution, you can’t stop people from putting
their
> own networking devices behind it. All the major vendors are
trying
> to sell smart home ecosystems that integrate with or are
controlled
> by a router type device. If you’ve bought into the Google Nest
> ecosystem, you have your Nest Thermostat, Nest Hubs, Nest Minis,
> Google Home, all talking to your Nest WiFi mesh system. You tell
> your Nest Hub “Hey Google, check my Internet speed” and the
Nest Hub
> tells the Nest WiFi to run a speedtest and then the Hub says
“your
> Internet sucks” or whatever.
>
> *From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>> *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett
> *Sent:* Friday, January 24, 2020 10:28 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
>
> I'm not coming up with my own anything. I'm not having to code
> anything. It's standards. Standards that Calix took and
pay-walled.
>
> The software I'm using is the same software Calix forked.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Darin Steffl" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *Sent: *Friday, January 24, 2020 9:59:49 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
>
> I'd say I have the technical ability to do something other than
> Calix but you are correct, I do not have the desire to do
anything else.
>
> I'm busy adding revenue into the company by upgrading the
network,
> increasing plan prices, adding TV & Phone, targeting business
> customers, etc. All of this is way more important to grow the
> business than trying to come up with our own Management router
> platform. It would only hurt us to not use something like
Calix that
> works out of the box. I suggest you try to think less like a
> techie/geek and more like a business person who likes profit.
This
> would change your mindset I think into using easy management
> platforms that cost a little money. We pay $0.51 per
month/sub for
> Calix Cloud which is extremely affordable to me. For that small
> amount, I don't need any servers, VM's, or coding knowledge.
>
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 9:26 AM Mike Hammett
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>
> That would be incorrect. I have Calix DSLAMs and have worked
> with Calix for a few years. Their paid support leaves
much to be
> desired. Obvious SNMP bug is obvious and they don't care.
>
> I'm not going to say the Calix product is a bad product, but
> there's a severe amount of fanboyism around it that I
believe is
> unwarranted. I don't believe people actually looked into
> alternatives.
>
> I have to setup and manage a server? So? It's just
another VM on
> the existing platform.
>
> Saving money isn't my only drive. Having a more flexible
system
> has its advantages.
>
> It seems as though you don't have the technical desire to do
> something not Calix... and that's fine, but it's not the
only
> (or even best) way to skin the cat.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Darin Steffl" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *Sent: *Friday, January 24, 2020 8:54:12 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
>
> Mike,
>
> It's apparent to me that you have not demoed or had physical
> Calix products in your hand before. What you just proposed
> requires much more hands-on setup and support than Calix
which
> is all handled by them with a technical team to back it
up. Your
> solution requires you to deploy one or more servers, set them
> up, make sure they don't go down, then pray that you or the
> vendor can help fix an issue when it shows up. I
guarantee that
> all costs much more money than what we pay Calix in terms of
> actual license costs and labor savings.
>
> Plus I'm positive Calix hardware performs better than any
other
> router you find like Comtrend and the mesh solution won't
be as
> pretty or seamless either. Probably not one-touch like
Calix is.
>
> You think you're going to save money with your own
solution but
> all you'll do is spend more time and money than I do and
have a
> worse platform. There's a reason why so many telcos
deploy Calix
> and it's because it's cheaper in the long run from labor
> efficiencies and better customer experience.
>
> I keep preaching to WISP's that doing everything yourself is
> hurting your business. Outsource what doesn't make you money.
> Managing servers and playing with Linux, etc does NOT
make you
> money. Adding new customer revenue does that for you so
deploy
> solutions that require as little of your time as possible
so you
> can focus on selling and increasing revenue. Calix allows
us to
> do that as well as Preseem & Azotel. If we tried to do what
> you're doing, we would be stuck in the mud messing around and
> not making as much money.
>
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 8:45 AM Mike Hammett
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>
> The road we're going down is likely Comtrend routers
with a
> Finepoint ACS.
>
> The Calix system is just a fork of an earlier
Finepoint product.
>
> TR-069 and TR-143 manage most of the fancy features
people
> that love Calix love to boast about.
>
> The advantage of something like this is that there is no
> vendor lock-in. One dashboard to support any device
in the
> field, though the capabilities of that management would
> depend on what the device manufacturer has decided to
implement.
>
> There are standards such as IEEE 1905 and the WiFi
> Alliance's Easy Mesh that intelligently handle
cross-vendor
> meshing, so nothing special about the Calix meshing
either.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Tushar Patel" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *Sent: *Friday, January 24, 2020 8:32:59 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
>
> And the Alternatives are?
>
> Tushar
>
> *From:*AF [mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett
> *Sent:* Friday, January 24, 2020 8:31 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
>
> There's no way Calix will get a dime from me.
Everything is
> so expensive compared to alternatives.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From: *"Jason McKemie"
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
> *Sent: *Thursday, January 23, 2020 12:29:01 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Google/Nest WiFi speedtest
>
> What does Calix get you for on the management? I've been
> looking into some options for managed routers, and I like
> the 844E, but Calix is pretty proud of their management
> platform and it just doesn't make a lot of sense for the
> number of managed routers we would be deploying right
now.
>
> I'm wondering if anyone out there has any experience with
> Ubiquiti's Dream Machine (unfortunate name, since
Sony has
> been using it for a couple of decades). At least
Ubiquiti
> has a management platform that I don't need to
sacrifice my
> firstborn for.
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 11:47 AM Darin Steffl
> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>>
> wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> Start heavily pushing managed routers. We're all
Calix
> with 804mesh and we include the first router free
in all
> our plans.
>
> Makes a huge difference.
>
> Google wifi is bad because there's no way to manually
> set the 5ghz channel away from our radio. We have one
> customer we told this and that their service will
stink
> until they switch to our router or get a
different mesh
> system like orbi where you can still set the channel
> manually.
>
> We also do not support any speedtest except
> speedtest.net <http://speedtest.net> <http://speedtest.net> and
selecting one
> server we like. Also they have to be hardwired to the
> POE or we won't respond to their tests. This
eliminates
> much of the back and forth wifi speedtests.
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, 11:34 AM Matt Hoppes
> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>
> I've had a slew of wifi related calls this week.
> Plug in, no issue.
> WiFi -- interference - customer needs to get
a dual
> band router, or it's
> so bad it's just not fixable.
>
> I really just want to tell folks "WiFi is not
> supported on our service,
> use at your own risk"... but of course, I
can't do that.
>
> On 1/23/20 11:54 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
> > Anybody know if the speedtest built into
the Google and Nest WiFi mesh
> > routers use the same M-Lab speedtest as the
one a Google search sends
> > you to? Their FAQ seems to indicate it is
different and tests to
> > Youtube servers.
> >
> > Apparently they have a feature where
customers can set it up to
> > periodically test their speed, and now I
have customers calling in to
> > report that their router says they aren’t
getting the speed they’re
> > paying for. We burn a bunch of time
checking all the stats, including
> > Preseem which shows no problems at all and
actual traffic consistently
> > to the speed plan they’re on. When asked
what they were trying to do
> > that was slow or when they ran the
speedtest, they can’t cite any
> > problems and the speedtests were done days
ago and they are just
> > reviewing the Google report.
> >
> > One guy said the Google report indicated
his dish moved in a windstorm
> > so we needed to come out and fix it. We
have all sorts of graphs on his
> > signal, SNR, etc. and his dish had not
moved. We had however moved this
> > tower onto Preseem for bandwidth management
around that time. Everyone
> > else is seeing better performance as a
result, video streaming, gaming
> > and web browsing now play nice together.
I’m wondering if somehow the
> > Google speedtest doesn’t like the Preseem
algorithms (FQ-CODEL + AQM),
> > or if their speedtest is just flakey.
> >
> > I don’t have a Google or Nest WiFi to test
with. We have a whole list
> > of other reasons why we hate them.
Generally we tell customers not to
> > buy them unless they are on a 3.65 GHz AP,
but customers like to say
> > screw you and then still expect you to be
responsible for their bad
> > decisions. (Like the customers who select
the cheap plan despite being
> > told it is too slow to watch streaming
video, and then call to complain
> > about streaming video.)
> >
> > Other reasons we hate them:
> >
> > - no dedicated backhaul channel, compared
to (for example) Netgear Orbi
> >
> > - only 1 or 2 Ethernet ports
> >
> > - requires Google account and app
> >
> > - requires cloud
> >
> > - uses Google DNS by default
> >
> > - tell me they’re not doing data mining
> >
> > - puck and point terminology is goofy,
reminiscent of Apple and their
> > airports and time capsules
> >
> >
>
> --
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> --
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> Darin Steffl
>
> Minnesota WiFi
>
> www.mnwifi.com <http://www.mnwifi.com> <http://www.mnwifi.com/>
>
> 507-634-WiFi
>
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> --
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> Darin Steffl
>
> Minnesota WiFi
>
> www.mnwifi.com <http://www.mnwifi.com> <http://www.mnwifi.com/>
>
> 507-634-WiFi
>
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