At these frequencies beamforming with a dish works very well.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 22, 2021, at 8:51 AM, Craig Baird via AF <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> Okay, good. That's exactly what I did. I assumed the beamforming capability 
> was limited to the non-dish models. I didn't think you could beamform when a 
> dish is involved, so this is good to know. Thanks!
> 
> Craig
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 8:42 AM Steve Jones <[email protected]> 
>> wrote:
>> That sounds like aligning the free space optics without the auto adjust shut 
>> off
>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:33 AM Mathew Howard <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I've found that it works best to just align them visually using the little 
>>> plastic sight that comes with them. It doesn't really work very will to use 
>>> signal level to align the Mikrotik 60ghz stuff, because of the beam 
>>> forming... the arrows work fairly well, but it does seem to be almost 
>>> impossible to get it right on using those. The beam forming does seem to 
>>> work pretty well on them though, so they don't need to be terribly 
>>> precise... it's not at all like trying to align something like the 
>>> Ignitenets.
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 9:20 AM Craig Baird <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I'm wondering if any of you have pointers for aligning these things. Do 
>>>> you just use the little arrow LEDs on the radio? I tried doing that but 
>>>> never could get them to all go out. When an arrow would light up, I'd move 
>>>> it that direction (very slowly), but I'd invariably overshoot, and the 
>>>> opposite arrow would come on, or in some cases, while adjusting 
>>>> horizontally, I'd suddenly get a vertical arrow lighting up that wasn't 
>>>> there before. I finally gave up and left it with a couple arrows on. It's 
>>>> running at full capacity, but if the signal isn't maxed out, I worry what 
>>>> will happen when there's a downpour. Any advice?
>>>> 
>>>> Craig
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 1:52 PM Mathew Howard <[email protected]> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I'll have to look at them again, but I think the mounts are basically the 
>>>>> same as the solid mounts for the old wireless wire dishes. I haven't had 
>>>>> any problems with the alignment adjuster screws seizing on any of those, 
>>>>> and I've used quite a few of them, but the u-bolts can certainly be a 
>>>>> problem... But that's easily fixed by just replacing the nuts with 
>>>>> something other than stainless. I've gotten into the habit of just 
>>>>> automatically replacing the nuts any time I see stainless hardware, or 
>>>>> greasing it, if I have to. 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 7:34 PM Steve Jones <[email protected]> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Did you use 320? Are they as bad as those at seizing?
>>>>>> If it's like that I dont care how good the gear is I wont buy another. I 
>>>>>> dont like staff having to use angle grinders in field.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 3:45 PM Craig Baird <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Guessing when you say the new Mikrotik variant, you're talking about 
>>>>>>> the nRay. I just picked up a pair of those for a link of about 250 ft. 
>>>>>>> One issue I had with them is that the mount is all stainless steel 
>>>>>>> hardware, and about 10 minutes after slightly tightening everything up, 
>>>>>>> I found all the nuts were seized and I could no longer loosen it 
>>>>>>> without breaking bolts. Even the alignment adjuster screws have this 
>>>>>>> issue. I noticed everything was stainless before I started installing 
>>>>>>> and should have just waited until I could get some non-stainless nuts 
>>>>>>> to replace the stainless ones. But being the impatient idiot that I am, 
>>>>>>> I decided I just wouldn't tighten them down too much, and then I'd pick 
>>>>>>> up new hardware the next time I came back. Now, I'm looking at having 
>>>>>>> to buy new mounts for both ends. Why do manufacturers use all stainless 
>>>>>>> hardware? When I owned my WISP, we had this issue way back in the 
>>>>>>> SmartBridge days (early 2000s). Seems like manufacturers should know 
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 5:43 PM Mathew Howard <[email protected]> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> The Mikrotiks are by far the easiest to align of any of the 60ghz 
>>>>>>>> stuff I've tried, and I think they're probably the most reliable too. 
>>>>>>>> I have a set of the new variant sitting here, and they look to be an 
>>>>>>>> improvement, but I haven't tried them yet. They would be my first 
>>>>>>>> choice for super short links.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I had high hopes for the Cambium 60ghz, but unfortunately it looks 
>>>>>>>> like they only support up to channel 4 (64.8ghz), which means they 
>>>>>>>> won't have significantly different range than the Mikrotiks, but if 
>>>>>>>> you need more than 1 gig, they're likely the best thing out there at 
>>>>>>>> the moment. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 6:07 PM Steve Jones <[email protected]> 
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> We ordered the newer variant of the wireless wire today, we will see 
>>>>>>>>> how it goes. We are waiting to see how the cambium product does and 
>>>>>>>>> plan on using the extensively for short short stuff, we have an odd 
>>>>>>>>> number of banks with remote drivethroughs very nearby.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I'm jaded on ignitnet. One of those incidental ones we dealt with had 
>>>>>>>>> killed one of our POPs off and on, the operator had the apparent 
>>>>>>>>> default 5ghz backup enabled and it was misaligned so it would 
>>>>>>>>> sporadically trash 5ghz, noisy useless bastards that they are
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 4:31 PM Mathew Howard <[email protected]> 
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The 5ghz backup would have been pretty useless on longer links. The 
>>>>>>>>>> problem is that it has tiny antennas (8dbi, if I remember right)... 
>>>>>>>>>> so it really only worked for really short links anyway, and even 
>>>>>>>>>> then, it seemed kind of buggy.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 3:55 PM Sterling Jacobson 
>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> It’s wise of them to have dropped 5GHz because it never really 
>>>>>>>>>>> worked all that well.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The radios/antennas didn’t seem to be made for it and it ends up 
>>>>>>>>>>> causing more issues than it solves IMO.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> From: AF <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Carl Peterson
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 2:50 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Wireless Wire Dish @ 1km
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Seems strange to me that they dropped the 5GHz backup radio from 
>>>>>>>>>>> the GBE Plus and the AF60LR.  All the other 60GHz radios have a 
>>>>>>>>>>> 5GHz backup of some sort.  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> We have installed a number of the little 60GHz GBE radios and they 
>>>>>>>>>>> seem solid for short links with easy aim.  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 3:31 PM Mathew Howard 
>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I think they claim their "Wave AI" feature is supposed to somehow 
>>>>>>>>>>> magically make long links work better... but yeah, being able to 
>>>>>>>>>>> use 66-70ghz behaves more like 70/80ghz than the lower 60ghz band, 
>>>>>>>>>>> so you can do much longer distances... you still have the same 
>>>>>>>>>>> problem with rain fade, but even on something like a 1 mile link 
>>>>>>>>>>> that will work at 64-65ghz, it works a lot better, since you have 
>>>>>>>>>>> more signal to work with.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 3:11 PM Carl Peterson 
>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Is that the only extra magic in the LR?  They claim 12KM vs 2KM.  I 
>>>>>>>>>>> would never try 12 but I'm tempted to go for up to 3.  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 3:02 PM Mathew Howard 
>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> At 1km it won't drop much, but it will still drop occasionally. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Ubiquiti AF60LR will do a bit better than the other options, 
>>>>>>>>>>> because it can use the higher channels. 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 2:16 PM Dev <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 700 meter Ignitenet MetroLinq PTP60-35 running around -48dbm during 
>>>>>>>>>>> clear day says it will do >2.5Gbps with this RSSI, these things do 
>>>>>>>>>>> a ton of bandwidth. It hangs in there surprisingly well during rain 
>>>>>>>>>>> unless it’s really DUMPING rain. I think during normal or heavy 
>>>>>>>>>>> rain it’s still in the mid to high 50’s. Doesn’t seem to use the 
>>>>>>>>>>> 5GHz backup much, but traffic drops off fast when you do. I have 
>>>>>>>>>>> another link doing 1.3km, much worse in heavy rain, but very 
>>>>>>>>>>> impressive throughput when it’s not raining, surprisingly. 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> > On Feb 19, 2021, at 11:51 AM, Steve Jones 
>>>>>>>>>>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> > 
>>>>>>>>>>> > We havent dealt with 60ghz other than as an outside contractor so 
>>>>>>>>>>> > ive never looked at performance directly. At 1 km what kind of 
>>>>>>>>>>> > fade are we talking in a normal rain shower, and in a downpour?
>>>>>>>>>>> > We have had pretty good luck with af24 over the years but need 
>>>>>>>>>>> > more capacity, the fade in 60ghz concerns me, and I never 
>>>>>>>>>>> > understood the 60 ghz ones with 5ghz backup. its like a cruise 
>>>>>>>>>>> > ship having a backup canoe
>>>>>>>>>>> > -- 
>>>>>>>>>>> > AF mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> > [email protected]
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>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Carl Peterson
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> PORT NETWORKS
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, MD 21202
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 637-3707 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Carl Peterson
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> PORT NETWORKS
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, MD 21202
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 637-3707 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
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