Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like polio and other ones.. I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all. Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't give a shit what you believe...
On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) < [email protected]> wrote: > I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring this up further, > but, it's probably time for me to stick my $0.02 in... > > One primary role of government is to make rules or laws in places where > people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict with each other. > > Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from infection is > if other people behaved like they might be a carrier. That is, limit > social interaction, stay away from other people if possible, wear masks, > practice good hygiene. Some people didn't want to do this. Other people > didn't want to be infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively. > Both sides had rights - the right to do what one wants vs the right not to > be infected by others who are a carrier. Add to that the right of being > able to have an ICU bed available if you did end up infected. At this > point, the government needed to step in and make a decision about who's > rights were going to be protected, and because of the nature of COVID, most > places ended up choosing the rights of people not to be infected. > > Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a way to protect > myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or having long-term effects > from COVID is more like dying from the flu (if not less). As a result, > now that anyone who wants a shot can get one, I really could care less > whether someone else wears a mask or gets vaccinated. Your choice. And > the government rules should reflect that, which most of them do at this > point. > > There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas we're going to > have a resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the unvaccinated. If > unvaccinated people start to fill the hospital ICU wards, then either we > need to go back to mask mandates and similar in those areas, OR we need to > be willing to kick unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they fill, and > let them die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if you chose a path > that results in a higher risk of dying, then you should also take the risk > of there not being an ICU bed available to you if you need it. > > There is also the concern about variants being generated by the virus > continuing to run rampant among parts of the population. I'm going to > ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy as then you have to > start asking difficult questions about what the actual risk of this is > versus the downside of forcing a population to either be vaccinated or > continue quarantine+mask wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong > enough evidence, either way, to make a decision here. > > The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need people > to make their decision about being vaccinated based on actual facts. Not > based on talking points or conspiracy theories from the left or the right. > The vaccine isn't magnetic. The vaccine, although still not fully FDA > approved has proven to have a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than > COVID itself. No, the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly > effective. No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips. Even if you > survive COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having > long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%). No, the vaccines > don't alter your DNA. And on and on. > > Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around the > vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right. I totally respect > people who look at the real facts and decide not to get the vaccine. I > can understand how two people who look at the facts can choose either way, > although I do believe that with the real facts, most people would end up > with the vaccine. But the whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating > is detrimental to people actually being able to make an informed decision > as opposed to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making > decisions based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that > don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation where many > people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors and suppositions. > > And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive lock on > conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that the left has their > fair share as well. Which side has made up more crap seems to revolve > around the issue, with some issues largely just being both sides making up > crap to make the issue appear larger than it is. > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical reason >> is. In this country, we have always allowed an individual to discuss and >> evaluate medical treatments with their doctor and their family and then >> make their own decision. The individual’s determination of necessity for a >> medical treatment may vary from person to person. Their perception of >> risk of treatment versus reward of not getting sick is not the same for >> every instance. Most people are pretty smart and will make decision in >> the best interest of their situation. Are we now saying that the >> individual can no longer make this determination? That people are not >> smart enough to make the decision in their best interest? That someone >> on an email list knows better than each individual whether or not that >> individual should be taking any medical treatment including a >> vaccination? I hope we are not moving into an era in the country where >> people decide for others whether or not they should take any medical >> treatment, especially when we are talking about an experimental vaccine. >> If we are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for mandatory >> medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope. I believe in the >> good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they have >> enough facts. I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have >> enough data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated. >> >> >> >> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they >> believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not >> vaccinated. The only people at risk are those who have decided not to be >> vaccinated and they have accepted that risk. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of * Robert >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >> >> >> >> David, >> Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a >> valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I don't imagine it's >> anywhere near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are not >> below the current age limit. I would WAG that it's probably a lot less >> than the 20% number not taking it that would get us to effective herd >> immunity. >> >> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for. >> >> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: >> >> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying >> you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing. People have been >> prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t >> want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’ >> of another person. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron <[email protected]> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles >> vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications. Each decision >> should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being >> treated. To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than >> they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call them >> selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical >> interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding >> not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a >> medical treatment against their will. You may feel that we should force >> them to take the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would feel >> the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of >> the earth. Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for >> the greater good. I am not attempting to determine where that line is, >> only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to >> take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that >> decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see >> things differently than some other folks. So be it. >> >> >> >> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to >> act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race. Seems >> like a disconnect there. >> >> >> >> If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to >> others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others. >> We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. I doubt >> that very many of us on this list can say that. We would never allow the >> sale of fatty foods. We would force each and everyone to get to a body >> mass within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is risky. We don’t >> need to do stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of >> dying. We are all much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke >> related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just the >> facts. Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those >> likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make >> big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death. >> >> >> >> I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things. >> While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the >> best choice for their situation. I also respect the right of someone who >> is not in the best physical condition to eat a steak. I realize that a >> drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals >> to go to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough >> not to drink and drive when they have had too much. >> >> >> >> Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we >> never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we understand that certain >> personal freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that >> might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding >> this situation. >> >> >> >> Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep >> perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape >> if they are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe the vaccine >> will work because if it does, there is nothing to worry about. >> >> >> >> I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is >> with us permanently. We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but >> we’ll never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, >> but because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu >> virus. Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we >> absolutely should as it will save lives. But as Carl pointed out below, >> vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 😊 >> >> >> >> I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic >> several years ago. Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the >> other high risk things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about AIDS >> anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and people still die from it. >> No one talks about it any more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. >> That is my bet. >> >> >> >> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My only original >> point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. >> We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right >> to chose. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> <[email protected]> *On >> Behalf Of *Carl Peterson >> *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]> >> <[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >> >> >> >> No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy perspective, you >> need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. >> We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate. Even >> if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something >> since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is >> walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time. >> >> >> >> Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if >> someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country >> there isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever isn't doing much >> these days. The issue here really is about what is best for society vs >> what an individual thinks is best for themselves. An individual's personal >> risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if >> they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for >> externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince >> them to get vaccinated. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a >> NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, >> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances. >> >> >> >> >> >> *<image001.png>* >> >> *Dennis Burgess* >> >> >> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” >> >> *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services >> >> *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net >> >> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com >> >> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net >> >> >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >> >> >> >> There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This is more like a >> whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons >> are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit >> difficult. Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in >> public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the >> potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed >> persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone >> around them and to the public at large. >> >> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: >> >> I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t believe I >> have stated anything that varies from the facts. I can send you the >> Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that. >> >> >> >> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not >> OK to say that I want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so >> unreasonable. We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that >> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane >> anyway. We still check each and every person to make sure. Just like we >> do the FDA approval process to make sure. Otherwise, we could just tell >> drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother >> putting you through the approval process” We don’t do that for good >> reason. >> >> >> >> I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping >> the situation. It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits >> of the situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at the >> intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision. >> >> >> >> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks >> publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA >> approved? >> >> >> >> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it >> should have. But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead >> with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t >> comfortable with an experimental vaccine. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> <[email protected]> *On >> Behalf Of *Adam Moffett >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >> >> >> >> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list. >> >> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: >> >> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks >> who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. >> >> >> >> 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an >> FDA approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork >> clearly stated several facts. Among them are: >> >> >> 1. This is not FDA approved. >> >> It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long time, >> but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty >> well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for >> FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go >> through or not. Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up >> at the airport expecting to board a plane. Presumably people don't try to >> get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea. >> >> >> >> 1. >> 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. >> While we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that >> this >> “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. >> >> 99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We can split >> hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it >> clearly prevents them from dying. >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine >> isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. >> >> I've never heard such an argument. >> >> >> >> 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every >> medicine you take has some level of side effect. The vast majority of >> medicines have such negligible side effects, that they are considered >> completely safe. The FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand >> the potential of serious side effects and drug interaction issues. If >> you >> are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this experimental >> drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill >> or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the >> risk >> of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of >> using an experimental drug”. It used to be that people relied upon a >> conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and >> use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly shame >> people into using experimental drugs. >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding >> of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take. >> >> It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year. >> >> >> >> >> 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not >> all. We have FDA approval processes for good reason. If for example, >> you were under 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it would be >> very fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully understood >> if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control >> medication. An incredibly low risk of serious illness or death from the >> virus could turn into a good chance of serious injury from seizure. As >> far as I know data like that is certainly not available yet. >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have >> decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug? >> >> I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable with that behavior >> either. It goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out there accusing >> people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> > > > -- > - Forrest > -- > AF mailing list > [email protected] > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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