I will say that more politicians need to be as plain-spoken about this as your governor was within the last few days.
On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 6:10 PM Jay Weekley <[email protected]> wrote: > Yay Alabama. > > Jaime Solorza wrote: > > Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like polio and > > other ones.. > > I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all. > > Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't give a shit > > what you believe... > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring this up > > further, but, it's probably time for me to stick my $0.02 in... > > > > One primary role of government is to make rules or laws in places > > where people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict with each other. > > > > Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from > > infection is if other people behaved like they might be a > > carrier. That is, limit social interaction, stay away from other > > people if possible, wear masks, practice good hygiene. Some > > people didn't want to do this. Other people didn't want to be > > infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively. Both > > sides had rights - the right to do what one wants vs the right not > > to be infected by others who are a carrier. Add to that the right > > of being able to have an ICU bed available if you did end up > > infected. At this point, the government needed to step in and > > make a decision about who's rights were going to be protected, and > > because of the nature of COVID, most places ended up choosing the > > rights of people not to be infected. > > > > Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a way to > > protect myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or having > > long-term effects from COVID is more like dying from the flu (if > > not less). As a result, now that anyone who wants a shot can get > > one, I really could care less whether someone else wears a mask or > > gets vaccinated. Your choice. And the government rules should > > reflect that, which most of them do at this point. > > > > There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas we're > > going to have a resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the > > unvaccinated. If unvaccinated people start to fill the hospital > > ICU wards, then either we need to go back to mask mandates and > > similar in those areas, OR we need to be willing to kick > > unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they fill, and let them > > die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if you chose a path > > that results in a higher risk of dying, then you should also take > > the risk of there not being an ICU bed available to you if you > > need it. > > > > There is also the concern about variants being generated by the > > virus continuing to run rampant among parts of the population. > > I'm going to ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy > > as then you have to start asking difficult questions about what > > the actual risk of this is versus the downside of forcing a > > population to either be vaccinated or continue quarantine+mask > > wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong enough evidence, > > either way, to make a decision here. > > > > The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need > > people to make their decision about being vaccinated based on > > actual facts. Not based on talking points or conspiracy theories > > from the left or the right. The vaccine isn't magnetic. The > > vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved has proven to have > > a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than COVID itself. No, > > the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly effective. > > No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips. Even if you survive > > COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having > > long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%). No, the > > vaccines don't alter your DNA. And on and on. > > > > Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around > > the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right. I totally > > respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get > > the vaccine. I can understand how two people who look at the > > facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the > > real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine. But the > > whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to > > people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed > > to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions > > based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that > > don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation > > where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors > > and suppositions. > > > > And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive > > lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that > > the left has their fair share as well. Which side has made up > > more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues > > largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue > > appear larger than it is. > > > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron > > <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical > > reason is. In this country, we have always allowed an > > individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with > > their doctor and their family and then make their own > > decision. The individual’s determination of necessity for a > > medical treatment may vary from person to person. Their > > perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting > > sick is not the same for every instance. Most people are > > pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of > > their situation. Are we now saying that the individual can > > no longer make this determination? That people are not smart > > enough to make the decision in their best interest? That > > someone on an email list knows better than each individual > > whether or not that individual should be taking any medical > > treatment including a vaccination? I hope we are not moving > > into an era in the country where people decide for others > > whether or not they should take any medical treatment, > > especially when we are talking about an experimental > > vaccine. If we are suggesting that the group can now make > > decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty > > slippery slope. I believe in the good of people and their > > ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts. > > I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough > > data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated. > > > > Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated > > and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned > > that others are not vaccinated. The only people at risk are > > those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have > > accepted that risk. > > > > *From:* AF <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of * Robert > > *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM > > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > David, > > Do you have any research of the percentage of people who > > "have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I > > don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population > > the is refusing that are not below the current age limit. I > > would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number > > not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity. > > > > Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution > > for. > > > > On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: > > > > AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with > > AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids > > by sneezing. People have been prosecuted for infecting > > others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t want the > > vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come > > within 100’ of another person. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron > > <[email protected]> > > <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > There are valid reasons for deciding to take this > > vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a > > myriad of other medications. Each decision should be > > based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical > > condition being treated. To think that you know > > everyone’s medical situation better than they do > > doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. > > To call them selfish for making a decision they > > believe is in their best medical interest seems overly > > judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to > > take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be > > forced to take a medical treatment against their > > will. You may feel that we should force them to take > > the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would > > feel the same about mandatory castration of young men > > to curb overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there > > is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the > > greater good. I am not attempting to determine where > > that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid > > medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine > > and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that > > decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am > > learning I see things differently than some other > > folks. So be it. > > > > I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, > > but we still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work > > in order to save the human race. Seems like a > > disconnect there. > > > > If we were really so worried about infecting others or > > causing harm to others, we would avoid all other > > activities that create risk for others. We’d never > > drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. > > I doubt that very many of us on this list can say > > that. We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. > > We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass > > within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is > > risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being > > alive carries with it the risk of dying. We are all > > much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke > > related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. > > Those are just the facts. Many folks make small > > adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely causes > > of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to > > make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those > > causes of death. > > > > I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear > > of these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I > > respect the right of folks to make the best choice for > > their situation. I also respect the right of someone > > who is not in the best physical condition to eat a > > steak. I realize that a drunk driver might kill me > > some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go > > to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are > > responsible enough not to drink and drive when they > > have had too much. > > > > Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to > > our country if we never allowed anyone in or out of > > it. But we understand that certain personal freedoms > > are worth the possibility of catching a disease that > > might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass > > hypochondria surrounding this situation. > > > > Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just > > trying to keep perspective. I just don’t > > understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they > > are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe > > the vaccine will work because if it does, there is > > nothing to worry about. > > > > I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like > > viruses, that it is with us permanently. We will > > have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll > > never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t > > getting vaccinated, but because it will always mutate > > ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus. > > Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on > > vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save > > lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines > > aren’t 100% effective……. 😊 > > > > I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a > > AIDS epidemic several years ago. Did we force people > > to stop having sex or many of the other high risk > > things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about > > AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and > > people still die from it. No one talks about it any > > more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. That > > is my bet. > > > > Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am > > sure. My only original point was that there are > > valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. We > > can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should > > respect their right to chose. > > > > *From:* AF <[email protected]> > > <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Carl > > Peterson > > *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM > > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > > <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public > > policy perspective, you need to pull on the levers > > that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. We > > know that a good percentage of people will follow a > > mask mandate. Even if most of that group is > > vaccinated that lever will still do something since no > > vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that > > population is walking around as symptom-free carriers > > at any given time. > > > > Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way > > to lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to > > care about their neighbors or their country there > > isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever > > isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is > > about what is best for society vs what an individual > > thinks is best for themselves. An individual's > > personal risk of having serious Covid complications is > > pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to > > the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. > > them infecting other people, then it's hard to > > convince them to get vaccinated. > > > > On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess > > <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > Why does someone who has made an informed choice > > not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have > > not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, > > if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take > > my chances. > > > > *<image001.png>* > > > > *Dennis Burgess* > > > > * > > *Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” > > > > *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support > > Services > > > > *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: > > http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net/> > > > > Create Wireless Coverage’s with > > www.towercoverage.com <http://www.towercoverage.com> > > > > Need MikroTik Cloud Management: > > https://cloud.linktechs.net > > > > *From:* AF <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of > > *Jan-GAMs > > *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM > > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > There is no having a sane discussion on this > > topic. This is more like a whining child having > > an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed > > persons are a health hazard and attempting to > > explain this to a child is a bit difficult. Those > > who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in > > public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick > > with Covid there is the potential for a new > > variant even worse than the Delta variant. > > Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they > > are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to > > the public at large. > > > > On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: > > > > I know, we can all make our own decisions. > > However, I don’t believe I have stated > > anything that varies from the facts. I can > > send you the Moderna sheet I received with my > > vaccine if you want to see that. > > > > Your points about FDA approval are probably > > accurate, however, why is not OK to say that I > > want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t > > seem so unreasonable. We don’t let folks on > > the plane based on the likelihood that those > > on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to > > get on the plane anyway. We still check each > > and every person to make sure. Just like we > > do the FDA approval process to make sure. > > Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies > > “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we > > won’t bother putting you through the approval > > process” We don’t do that for good reason. > > > > I agree with you on the memes both ways. > > Neither approach are helping the situation. > > It should be a discussion based upon the > > scientific merits of the situation. > > Unfortunately both side love to poke at the > > intelligence of those that don’t agree with > > their decision. > > > > There is no way to know this for sure, but I > > wonder how many folks publicly shaming others > > for not taking the vaccine know that it is not > > FDA approved? > > > > Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, > > nor am I suggesting it should have. But I > > don’t think that those of us that decided to > > go ahead with the vaccination get to make > > medical decisions for those who aren’t > > comfortable with an experimental vaccine. > > > > *From:* AF <[email protected]> > > <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of > > *Adam Moffett > > *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM > > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political > > > > I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't > > agree with most of your list. > > > > On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: > > > > Here is what I find particularly > > challenging about suggesting that folks > > who have chosen not to take the vaccine > > are not that smart. > > > > 1. Folks who do that never talk about > > that fact that this is not an FDA > > approved medicine/vaccine. I took > > the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork > > clearly stated several facts. Among > > them are: > > > > 1. This is not FDA approved. > > > > It has an emergency use authorization. FDA > > approval takes a long time, but around 90% of > > the submissions end up approved because they > > are pretty well tested by the manufacturer > > before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA > > approval already has a pretty good idea > > whether it's going to go through or not. > > Presumably people on a no-fly list don't > > routinely show up at the airport expecting to > > board a plane. Presumably people don't try to > > get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug > > test. Same idea. > > > > > > 1. > > 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven > > to prevent the virus. While we > > likely all agree that there is a > > very good likelihood that this > > “vaccine” will help prevent it, it > > is far from a proven fact. > > > > 99% of people dying of Covid right now are > > un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say > > maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming > > infected, but it clearly prevents them from > dying. > > > > > > 1. > > > > 1. The argument is, “there should be no > > reason to think this vaccine isn’t > > safe since people aren’t dying from > > taking the vaccine”. > > > > I've never heard such an argument. > > > > > > 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of > > medical treatment. Every medicine you > > take has some level of side effect. > > The vast majority of medicines have > > such negligible side effects, that > > they are considered completely safe. > > The FDA approval process exists to > > ensure we understand the potential of > > serious side effects and drug > > interaction issues. If you are 30 > > years old and folks are saying you > > have to take this experimental drug to > > prevent this incredibly small chance > > of you becoming seriously ill or > > dying, it seems like an intelligent > > thing to say “I am not sure the risk > > of getting seriously ill or dying from > > this disease outweighs the risk of > > using an experimental drug”. It used > > to be that people relied upon a > > conversation with their doctor to > > determine personal risk of disease and > > use of a drug. Apparently we no longer > > do that. We publicly shame people > > into using experimental drugs. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t > > have a full understanding of drug > > interactions with other medicines > > folks need to take. > > > > It isn't some weird new chemical we just > > invented this year. > > > > > > > > 1. We likely understand the very common > > medicines, but, certainly not all. > > We have FDA approval processes for > > good reason. If for example, you > > were under 40 and were taking seizure > > control medication, it would be very > > fair to hold off on an experimental > > drug until it is fully understood if > > the vaccine might lessen the > > effectiveness of the seizure control > > medication. An incredibly low risk > > of serious illness or death from the > > virus could turn into a good chance of > > serious injury from seizure. As far > > as I know data like that is certainly > > not available yet. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need > > to belittle those that have decided > > not to get vaccinated by an > > experimental drug? > > > > I don't know the answer to that. I'm not > > comfortable with that behavior either. It > > goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out > > there accusing people of being dumb sheep for > > taking the vaccine. > > > > -- > > AF mailing list > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > > AF mailing list > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > > > -- > > AF mailing list > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > > > -- > > - Forrest > > -- > > AF mailing list > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > > > > > > -- > *Jay Weekley* > *Cyber Broadband > * > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > [email protected] > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- - Forrest
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