Assuming the vaccine is 90% effective, your neighbor (vaccinated) has
a 9 in 10 chance of not getting it. Unvaccinated, your neighbor will
get it (per your scenario) and now has the ability to infect others. A
good analogy is critical-mass in a nuclear reactor; the vaccine
represents the control rods and the infected represent the decaying
isotope. Drop the control rods and the reaction stops - pull them out
and the reaction goes super-critical.
I wish I could tie this to Dr. Strangelove, but it is late and I am
tired.
On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 9:27 PM Steve Jones <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I laugh at the whole "get vaccinated so you dont give it to your
neighbor" coming from the vaccinated who are spreading it to their
neighbors.
Good lulz.
Anybody wanna charter a flight from texas to dc?
On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 8:01 PM Chuck McCown via AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Run Forrest
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 24, 2021, at 6:09 PM, Jay Weekley
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
>
> Yay Alabama.
>
> Jaime Solorza wrote:
>> Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like
polio and other ones..
>> I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all.
>> Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't
give a shit what you believe...
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List
Account) <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>>
wrote:
>>
>> I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring
this up
>> further, but, it's probably time for me to stick my
$0.02 in...
>>
>> One primary role of government is to make rules or laws
in places
>> where people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict
with each other.
>>
>> Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from
>> infection is if other people behaved like they might be a
>> carrier. That is, limit social interaction, stay away
from other
>> people if possible, wear masks, practice good hygiene.
Some
>> people didn't want to do this. Other people didn't want
to be
>> infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively.
Both
>> sides had rights - the right to do what one wants vs the
right not
>> to be infected by others who are a carrier. Add to that
the right
>> of being able to have an ICU bed available if you did end up
>> infected. At this point, the government needed to step
in and
>> make a decision about who's rights were going to be
protected, and
>> because of the nature of COVID, most places ended up
choosing the
>> rights of people not to be infected.
>>
>> Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a
way to
>> protect myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or
having
>> long-term effects from COVID is more like dying from the
flu (if
>> not less). As a result, now that anyone who wants a
shot can get
>> one, I really could care less whether someone else wears
a mask or
>> gets vaccinated. Your choice. And the government rules
should
>> reflect that, which most of them do at this point.
>>
>> There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas
we're
>> going to have a resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the
>> unvaccinated. If unvaccinated people start to fill
the hospital
>> ICU wards, then either we need to go back to mask
mandates and
>> similar in those areas, OR we need to be willing to kick
>> unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they fill, and
let them
>> die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if you
chose a path
>> that results in a higher risk of dying, then you should
also take
>> the risk of there not being an ICU bed available to you
if you
>> need it.
>>
>> There is also the concern about variants being generated
by the
>> virus continuing to run rampant among parts of the
population. I'm going to ignore this as this makes my
point a bit more messy
>> as then you have to start asking difficult questions
about what
>> the actual risk of this is versus the downside of forcing a
>> population to either be vaccinated or continue
quarantine+mask
>> wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong enough
evidence,
>> either way, to make a decision here.
>>
>> The other point which continues to be frustrating is
that we need
>> people to make their decision about being vaccinated
based on
>> actual facts. Not based on talking points or
conspiracy theories
>> from the left or the right. The vaccine isn't
magnetic. The
>> vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved has
proven to have
>> a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than COVID
itself. No,
>> the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly
effective. No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips.
Even if you survive
>> COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having
>> long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%).
No, the
>> vaccines don't alter your DNA. And on and on.
>>
>> Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy
theories around
>> the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right.
I totally
>> respect people who look at the real facts and decide not
to get
>> the vaccine. I can understand how two people who look
at the
>> facts can choose either way, although I do believe that
with the
>> real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine.
But the
>> whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is
detrimental to
>> people actually being able to make an informed decision
as opposed
>> to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making
decisions
>> based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring
facts that
>> don't match up with one's world view and you've got a
situation
>> where many people make decisions based not on facts but
on rumors
>> and suppositions.
>>
>> And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an
exclusive
>> lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the
record that
>> the left has their fair share as well. Which side has
made up
>> more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some
issues
>> largely just being both sides making up crap to make the
issue
>> appear larger than it is.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron
>> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>>
>> This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a
valid medical
>> reason is. In this country, we have always allowed an
>> individual to discuss and evaluate medical
treatments with
>> their doctor and their family and then make their own
>> decision. The individual’s determination of
necessity for a
>> medical treatment may vary from person to person.
Their
>> perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not
getting
>> sick is not the same for every instance. Most
people are
>> pretty smart and will make decision in the best
interest of
>> their situation. Are we now saying that the
individual can
>> no longer make this determination? That people are
not smart
>> enough to make the decision in their best interest?
That
>> someone on an email list knows better than each
individual
>> whether or not that individual should be taking any
medical
>> treatment including a vaccination? I hope we are
not moving
>> into an era in the country where people decide for
others
>> whether or not they should take any medical treatment,
>> especially when we are talking about an experimental
>> vaccine. If we are suggesting that the group can
now make
>> decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is
a pretty
>> slippery slope. I believe in the good of people
and their
>> ability to make a good decision when they have
enough facts. I suspect most unvaccinated folks will
eventually have enough
>> data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated.
>>
>> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is
vaccinated
>> and they believe the vaccine works, why are they
concerned
>> that others are not vaccinated. The only people at
risk are
>> those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they
have
>> accepted that risk.
>>
>> *From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>> *On Behalf Of * Robert
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM
>> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>
>> David,
>> Do you have any research of the percentage of
people who
>> "have a valid medical reason" for not taking the
vaccine? I
>> don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US
population
>> the is refusing that are not below the current age
limit. I
>> would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20%
number
>> not taking it that would get us to effective herd
immunity.
>>
>> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a
solution
>> for.
>>
>> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like
someone with
>> AIDS spraying you down with their precious
bodily fluids
>> by sneezing. People have been prosecuted for
infecting
>> others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t
want the
>> vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you
come
>> within 100’ of another person.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron
>> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> There are valid reasons for deciding to take
this
>> vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu
vaccine, or a
>> myriad of other medications. Each decision
should be
>> based on risk/reward of that drug and the
medical
>> condition being treated. To think that you
know
>> everyone’s medical situation better than they do
>> doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully
presumptive. To call them selfish for making
a decision they
>> believe is in their best medical interest
seems overly
>> judgmental. Yes, there are people are
deciding not to
>> take it simply because they think they
shouldn’t be
>> forced to take a medical treatment against their
>> will. You may feel that we should force
them to take
>> the treatment for the better good. I doubt
you would
>> feel the same about mandatory castration of
young men
>> to curb overcrowding of the earth.
Obviously there
>> is a line somewhere about forced treatment
for the
>> greater good. I am not attempting to
determine where
>> that line is, only suggesting that folks
have valid
>> medical reasons for not deciding to take the
vaccine
>> and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for
making that
>> decision. It doesn’t seem that far
fetched, but I am
>> learning I see things differently than some
other
>> folks. So be it.
>>
>> I love the argument that we have to get
vaccinated,
>> but we still have to act like the vaccine
doesn’t work
>> in order to save the human race. Seems like a
>> disconnect there.
>>
>> If we were really so worried about infecting
others or
>> causing harm to others, we would avoid all other
>> activities that create risk for others.
We’d never
>> drive a car, much less have a beer and get
in a car. I doubt that very many of us on
this list can say
>> that. We would never allow the sale of
fatty foods. We would force each and everyone
to get to a body mass
>> within our accepted range. Keep in mind
life is
>> risky. We don’t need to do stupid things,
but being
>> alive carries with it the risk of dying.
We are all
>> much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke
>> related illness, or cancer than we are of
Covid. Those are just the facts. Many folks
make small
>> adjustments to reduce the risk of those
likely causes
>> of mortality, but have long ago passed on
decisions to
>> make big changes to eliminate the
possibility of those
>> causes of death.
>>
>> I have long ago decided not to live in
constant fear
>> of these things. While I chose to be
vaccinated, I
>> respect the right of folks to make the best
choice for
>> their situation. I also respect the right
of someone
>> who is not in the best physical condition to
eat a
>> steak. I realize that a drunk driver might
kill me
>> some day, but I respect the right of
individuals to go
>> to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are
>> responsible enough not to drink and drive
when they
>> have had too much.
>>
>> Keep in mind that this virus would have
never come to
>> our country if we never allowed anyone in or
out of
>> it. But we understand that certain
personal freedoms
>> are worth the possibility of catching a
disease that
>> might kill us. I have a tough time with
the mass
>> hypochondria surrounding this situation.
>>
>> Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just
>> trying to keep perspective. I just don’t
>> understand why folks get so bent out of
shape if they
>> are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t
believe
>> the vaccine will work because if it does,
there is
>> nothing to worry about.
>>
>> I wager that given Covid’s relation to
influenza like
>> viruses, that it is with us permanently.
We will
>> have yearly updates to the vaccination, but
we’ll
>> never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t
>> getting vaccinated, but because it will
always mutate
>> ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu
virus. Please don’t take this as an argument
to not work on
>> vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save
>> lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines
>> aren’t 100% effective……. 😊
>>
>> I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember,
we had a
>> AIDS epidemic several years ago. Did we
force people
>> to stop having sex or many of the other high
risk
>> things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even
talk about
>> AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of
AIDS and
>> people still die from it. No one talks about
it any
>> more. Covid will be the same way in 10
years. That
>> is my bet.
>>
>> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am
>> sure. My only original point was that
there are
>> valid reasons folks chose not to get
vaccinated. We
>> can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but
should
>> respect their right to chose.
>>
>> *From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Carl
>> Peterson
>> *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>
>> No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public
>> policy perspective, you need to pull on the
levers
>> that work in order to get R0 to be less than
1. We
>> know that a good percentage of people will
follow a
>> mask mandate. Even if most of that group is
>> vaccinated that lever will still do
something since no
>> vaccine is 100% effective and some number of
that
>> population is walking around as symptom-free
carriers
>> at any given time.
>>
>> Getting most people vaccinated would be the
best way
>> to lower R0, but if someone is too self
centered to
>> care about their neighbors or their country
there
>> isn't much you can do to make them care.
That lever
>> isn't doing much these days. The issue here
really is
>> about what is best for society vs what an
individual
>> thinks is best for themselves. An individual's
>> personal risk of having serious Covid
complications is
>> pretty low so if they believe there is some
risk to
>> the vaccine and don't account for
externalities, e.g.
>> them infecting other people, then it's hard to
>> convince them to get vaccinated.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess
>> <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>>
>> Why does someone who has made an
informed choice
>> not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved
drug have
>> not sit out in timeout? This is a free
society,
>> if you are so scared, you stay home. I
will take
>> my chances.
>>
>> *<image001.png>*
>>
>> *Dennis Burgess*
>>
>> *
>> *Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>>
>> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik &
WISP Support
>> Services
>>
>> *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website:
>> http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net>
<http://www.linktechs.net/ <http://www.linktechs.net/>>
>>
>> Create Wireless Coverage’s with
>> www.towercoverage.com <http://www.towercoverage.com>
<http://www.towercoverage.com <http://www.towercoverage.com>>
>>
>> Need MikroTik Cloud Management:
>> https://cloud.linktechs.net <https://cloud.linktechs.net>
>>
>> *From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
>> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>> *On Behalf Of
>> *Jan-GAMs
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
>> *To:* [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>
>> There is no having a sane discussion on this
>> topic. This is more like a whining
child having
>> an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed
>> persons are a health hazard and
attempting to
>> explain this to a child is a bit
difficult. Those
>> who don't have a vaccine should not be
allowed in
>> public. Every time a non-vaxxed person
gets sick
>> with Covid there is the potential for a new
>> variant even worse than the Delta variant.
>> Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined
as they
>> are a health-hazard to everyone around
them and to
>> the public at large.
>>
>> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>>
>> I know, we can all make our own
decisions.
>> However, I don’t believe I have stated
>> anything that varies from the
facts. I can
>> send you the Moderna sheet I
received with my
>> vaccine if you want to see that.
>>
>> Your points about FDA approval are
probably
>> accurate, however, why is not OK to
say that I
>> want to wait for the approval?
That doesn’t
>> seem so unreasonable. We don’t let
folks on
>> the plane based on the likelihood
that those
>> on the no-fly list probably won’t
show up to
>> get on the plane anyway. We still
check each
>> and every person to make sure. Just
like we
>> do the FDA approval process to make
sure. Otherwise, we could just tell
drug companies
>> “if you are pretty sure you’d pass
anyway, we
>> won’t bother putting you through the
approval
>> process” We don’t do that for good
reason.
>>
>> I agree with you on the memes both ways.
>> Neither approach are helping the
situation. It should be a discussion
based upon the
>> scientific merits of the situation.
Unfortunately both side love to poke
at the
>> intelligence of those that don’t
agree with
>> their decision.
>>
>> There is no way to know this for
sure, but I
>> wonder how many folks publicly
shaming others
>> for not taking the vaccine know that
it is not
>> FDA approved?
>>
>> Likely won’t change lots of folks
decisions,
>> nor am I suggesting it should have.
But I
>> don’t think that those of us that
decided to
>> go ahead with the vaccination get to
make
>> medical decisions for those who aren’t
>> comfortable with an experimental
vaccine.
>>
>> *From:* AF <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of
>> *Adam Moffett
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
>> *To:* [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat
political
>>
>> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but
I don't
>> agree with most of your list.
>>
>> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron
wrote:
>>
>> Here is what I find particularly
>> challenging about suggesting
that folks
>> who have chosen not to take the
vaccine
>> are not that smart.
>>
>> 1. Folks who do that never talk
about
>> that fact that this is not
an FDA
>> approved medicine/vaccine.
I took
>> the Moderna vaccine, the
paperwork
>> clearly stated several
facts. Among
>> them are:
>>
>> 1. This is not FDA approved.
>>
>> It has an emergency use
authorization. FDA
>> approval takes a long time, but
around 90% of
>> the submissions end up approved
because they
>> are pretty well tested by the
manufacturer
>> before they apply. Anybody applying
for FDA
>> approval already has a pretty good idea
>> whether it's going to go through or
not. Presumably people on a no-fly
list don't
>> routinely show up at the airport
expecting to
>> board a plane. Presumably people
don't try to
>> get a CDL if they know they'll fail
the drug
>> test. Same idea.
>>
>>
>> 1.
>> 2. This “vaccine” has not
been proven
>> to prevent the virus.
While we
>> likely all agree that
there is a
>> very good likelihood
that this
>> “vaccine” will help
prevent it, it
>> is far from a proven fact.
>>
>> 99% of people dying of Covid right
now are
>> un-vaccinated. We can split hairs
and say
>> maybe it didn't prevent them from
becoming
>> infected, but it clearly prevents
them from dying.
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> 1. The argument is, “there
should be no
>> reason to think this vaccine
isn’t
>> safe since people aren’t
dying from
>> taking the vaccine”.
>>
>> I've never heard such an argument.
>>
>>
>> 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward
type of
>> medical treatment. Every
medicine you
>> take has some level of side
effect.
>> The vast majority of
medicines have
>> such negligible side
effects, that
>> they are considered
completely safe.
>> The FDA approval process
exists to
>> ensure we understand the
potential of
>> serious side effects and drug
>> interaction issues. If you
are 30
>> years old and folks are
saying you
>> have to take this
experimental drug to
>> prevent this incredibly
small chance
>> of you becoming seriously ill or
>> dying, it seems like an
intelligent
>> thing to say “I am not sure
the risk
>> of getting seriously ill or
dying from
>> this disease outweighs the
risk of
>> using an experimental
drug”. It used
>> to be that people relied upon a
>> conversation with their
doctor to
>> determine personal risk of
disease and
>> use of a drug. Apparently we
no longer
>> do that. We publicly shame
people
>> into using experimental drugs.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. Since it is not FDA
approved, we don’t
>> have a full understanding of
drug
>> interactions with other
medicines
>> folks need to take.
>>
>> It isn't some weird new chemical we just
>> invented this year.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. We likely understand the
very common
>> medicines, but, certainly
not all. We have FDA approval
processes for
>> good reason. If for
example, you
>> were under 40 and were
taking seizure
>> control medication, it would
be very
>> fair to hold off on an
experimental
>> drug until it is fully
understood if
>> the vaccine might lessen the
>> effectiveness of the seizure
control
>> medication. An incredibly
low risk
>> of serious illness or death
from the
>> virus could turn into a good
chance of
>> serious injury from
seizure. As far
>> as I know data like that is
certainly
>> not available yet.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. Why do vaccinated people
feel the need
>> to belittle those that have
decided
>> not to get vaccinated by an
>> experimental drug?
>>
>> I don't know the answer to that. I'm not
>> comfortable with that behavior
either. It
>> goes both ways though. Plenty of
memes out
>> there accusing people of being dumb
sheep for
>> taking the vaccine.
>>
>> -- AF mailing list
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -- AF mailing list
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>>
>>
>>
>> -- AF mailing list
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- - Forrest
>> -- AF mailing list
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
<http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
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> *Cyber Broadband
> *
>
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