Like i said.. On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:56 PM Jaime Solorza <[email protected]> wrote:
> Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like polio and other > ones.. > I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all. > Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't give a shit > what you believe... > > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring this up further, >> but, it's probably time for me to stick my $0.02 in... >> >> One primary role of government is to make rules or laws in places where >> people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict with each other. >> >> Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from infection is >> if other people behaved like they might be a carrier. That is, limit >> social interaction, stay away from other people if possible, wear masks, >> practice good hygiene. Some people didn't want to do this. Other people >> didn't want to be infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively. >> Both sides had rights - the right to do what one wants vs the right not to >> be infected by others who are a carrier. Add to that the right of being >> able to have an ICU bed available if you did end up infected. At this >> point, the government needed to step in and make a decision about who's >> rights were going to be protected, and because of the nature of COVID, most >> places ended up choosing the rights of people not to be infected. >> >> Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a way to protect >> myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or having long-term effects >> from COVID is more like dying from the flu (if not less). As a result, >> now that anyone who wants a shot can get one, I really could care less >> whether someone else wears a mask or gets vaccinated. Your choice. And >> the government rules should reflect that, which most of them do at this >> point. >> >> There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas we're going to >> have a resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the unvaccinated. If >> unvaccinated people start to fill the hospital ICU wards, then either we >> need to go back to mask mandates and similar in those areas, OR we need to >> be willing to kick unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they fill, and >> let them die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if you chose a path >> that results in a higher risk of dying, then you should also take the risk >> of there not being an ICU bed available to you if you need it. >> >> There is also the concern about variants being generated by the virus >> continuing to run rampant among parts of the population. I'm going to >> ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy as then you have to >> start asking difficult questions about what the actual risk of this is >> versus the downside of forcing a population to either be vaccinated or >> continue quarantine+mask wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong >> enough evidence, either way, to make a decision here. >> >> The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need people >> to make their decision about being vaccinated based on actual facts. Not >> based on talking points or conspiracy theories from the left or the right. >> The vaccine isn't magnetic. The vaccine, although still not fully FDA >> approved has proven to have a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than >> COVID itself. No, the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly >> effective. No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips. Even if you >> survive COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having >> long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%). No, the vaccines >> don't alter your DNA. And on and on. >> >> Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around the >> vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right. I totally respect >> people who look at the real facts and decide not to get the vaccine. I >> can understand how two people who look at the facts can choose either way, >> although I do believe that with the real facts, most people would end up >> with the vaccine. But the whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating >> is detrimental to people actually being able to make an informed decision >> as opposed to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making >> decisions based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that >> don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation where many >> people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors and suppositions. >> >> And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive lock on >> conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that the left has their >> fair share as well. Which side has made up more crap seems to revolve >> around the issue, with some issues largely just being both sides making up >> crap to make the issue appear larger than it is. >> >> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical reason >>> is. In this country, we have always allowed an individual to discuss and >>> evaluate medical treatments with their doctor and their family and then >>> make their own decision. The individual’s determination of necessity for a >>> medical treatment may vary from person to person. Their perception of >>> risk of treatment versus reward of not getting sick is not the same for >>> every instance. Most people are pretty smart and will make decision in >>> the best interest of their situation. Are we now saying that the >>> individual can no longer make this determination? That people are not >>> smart enough to make the decision in their best interest? That someone >>> on an email list knows better than each individual whether or not that >>> individual should be taking any medical treatment including a >>> vaccination? I hope we are not moving into an era in the country where >>> people decide for others whether or not they should take any medical >>> treatment, especially when we are talking about an experimental vaccine. >>> If we are suggesting that the group can now make decisions for mandatory >>> medical procedures, that is a pretty slippery slope. I believe in the >>> good of people and their ability to make a good decision when they have >>> enough facts. I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have >>> enough data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated. >>> >>> >>> >>> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated and they >>> believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned that others are not >>> vaccinated. The only people at risk are those who have decided not to be >>> vaccinated and they have accepted that risk. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* AF <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of * Robert >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >>> >>> >>> >>> David, >>> Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a >>> valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I don't imagine it's >>> anywhere near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are not >>> below the current age limit. I would WAG that it's probably a lot less >>> than the 20% number not taking it that would get us to effective herd >>> immunity. >>> >>> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for. >>> >>> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: >>> >>> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying >>> you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing. People have been >>> prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t >>> want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’ >>> of another person. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron >>> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles >>> vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications. Each decision >>> should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being >>> treated. To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than >>> they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. To call them >>> selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical >>> interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding >>> not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a >>> medical treatment against their will. You may feel that we should force >>> them to take the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would feel >>> the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of >>> the earth. Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for >>> the greater good. I am not attempting to determine where that line is, >>> only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to >>> take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that >>> decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see >>> things differently than some other folks. So be it. >>> >>> >>> >>> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to >>> act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race. Seems >>> like a disconnect there. >>> >>> >>> >>> If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to >>> others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others. >>> We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. I doubt >>> that very many of us on this list can say that. We would never allow the >>> sale of fatty foods. We would force each and everyone to get to a body >>> mass within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is risky. We don’t >>> need to do stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of >>> dying. We are all much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke >>> related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. Those are just the >>> facts. Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those >>> likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make >>> big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things. >>> While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the >>> best choice for their situation. I also respect the right of someone who >>> is not in the best physical condition to eat a steak. I realize that a >>> drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals >>> to go to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough >>> not to drink and drive when they have had too much. >>> >>> >>> >>> Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we >>> never allowed anyone in or out of it. But we understand that certain >>> personal freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that >>> might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding >>> this situation. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep >>> perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape >>> if they are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe the vaccine >>> will work because if it does, there is nothing to worry about. >>> >>> >>> >>> I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it >>> is with us permanently. We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, >>> but we’ll never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t getting >>> vaccinated, but because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just >>> like the flu virus. Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on >>> vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save lives. But as Carl pointed >>> out below, vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 😊 >>> >>> >>> >>> I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic >>> several years ago. Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the >>> other high risk things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about AIDS >>> anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and people still die from it. >>> No one talks about it any more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. >>> That is my bet. >>> >>> >>> >>> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure. My only original >>> point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. >>> We can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right >>> to chose. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* AF <[email protected]> <[email protected]> *On >>> Behalf Of *Carl Peterson >>> *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM >>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <[email protected]> >>> <[email protected]> >>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >>> >>> >>> >>> No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public policy perspective, you >>> need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. >>> We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate. Even >>> if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something >>> since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is >>> walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time. >>> >>> >>> >>> Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if >>> someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country >>> there isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever isn't doing much >>> these days. The issue here really is about what is best for society vs >>> what an individual thinks is best for themselves. An individual's personal >>> risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if >>> they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for >>> externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince >>> them to get vaccinated. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a >>> NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, >>> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *<image001.png>* >>> >>> *Dennis Burgess* >>> >>> >>> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” >>> >>> *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services >>> >>> *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net >>> >>> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com >>> >>> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* AF <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Jan-GAMs >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >>> >>> >>> >>> There is no having a sane discussion on this topic. This is more like a >>> whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons >>> are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit >>> difficult. Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in >>> public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the >>> potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant. Un-vaxxed >>> persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone >>> around them and to the public at large. >>> >>> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: >>> >>> I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t believe I >>> have stated anything that varies from the facts. I can send you the >>> Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that. >>> >>> >>> >>> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is >>> not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so >>> unreasonable. We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that >>> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane >>> anyway. We still check each and every person to make sure. Just like we >>> do the FDA approval process to make sure. Otherwise, we could just tell >>> drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother >>> putting you through the approval process” We don’t do that for good >>> reason. >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping >>> the situation. It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits >>> of the situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at the >>> intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision. >>> >>> >>> >>> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks >>> publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA >>> approved? >>> >>> >>> >>> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it >>> should have. But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead >>> with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t >>> comfortable with an experimental vaccine. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* AF <[email protected]> <[email protected]> *On >>> Behalf Of *Adam Moffett >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list. >>> >>> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: >>> >>> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks >>> who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an >>> FDA approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the >>> paperwork >>> clearly stated several facts. Among them are: >>> >>> >>> 1. This is not FDA approved. >>> >>> It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long time, >>> but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty >>> well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for >>> FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go >>> through or not. Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up >>> at the airport expecting to board a plane. Presumably people don't try to >>> get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. >>> 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. >>> While we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that >>> this >>> “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. >>> >>> 99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We can split >>> hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it >>> clearly prevents them from dying. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> >>> 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine >>> isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. >>> >>> I've never heard such an argument. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every >>> medicine you take has some level of side effect. The vast majority of >>> medicines have such negligible side effects, that they are considered >>> completely safe. The FDA approval process exists to ensure we >>> understand >>> the potential of serious side effects and drug interaction issues. If >>> you >>> are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this experimental >>> drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously >>> ill >>> or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the >>> risk >>> of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of >>> using an experimental drug”. It used to be that people relied upon a >>> conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and >>> use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly shame >>> people into using experimental drugs. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding >>> of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take. >>> >>> It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly >>> not all. We have FDA approval processes for good reason. If for >>> example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it >>> would be very fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully >>> understood if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of the seizure >>> control medication. An incredibly low risk of serious illness or death >>> from the virus could turn into a good chance of serious injury from >>> seizure. As far as I know data like that is certainly not available >>> yet. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that >>> have decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug? >>> >>> I don't know the answer to that. I'm not comfortable with that behavior >>> either. It goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out there accusing >>> people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> - Forrest >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >
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