Run Forrest Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 24, 2021, at 6:09 PM, Jay Weekley <[email protected]> wrote: > > Yay Alabama. > > Jaime Solorza wrote: >> Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like polio and other >> ones.. >> I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all. >> Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't give a shit what >> you believe... >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring this up >> further, but, it's probably time for me to stick my $0.02 in... >> >> One primary role of government is to make rules or laws in places >> where people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict with each other. >> >> Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from >> infection is if other people behaved like they might be a >> carrier. That is, limit social interaction, stay away from other >> people if possible, wear masks, practice good hygiene. Some >> people didn't want to do this. Other people didn't want to be >> infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively. Both >> sides had rights - the right to do what one wants vs the right not >> to be infected by others who are a carrier. Add to that the right >> of being able to have an ICU bed available if you did end up >> infected. At this point, the government needed to step in and >> make a decision about who's rights were going to be protected, and >> because of the nature of COVID, most places ended up choosing the >> rights of people not to be infected. >> >> Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a way to >> protect myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or having >> long-term effects from COVID is more like dying from the flu (if >> not less). As a result, now that anyone who wants a shot can get >> one, I really could care less whether someone else wears a mask or >> gets vaccinated. Your choice. And the government rules should >> reflect that, which most of them do at this point. >> >> There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas we're >> going to have a resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the >> unvaccinated. If unvaccinated people start to fill the hospital >> ICU wards, then either we need to go back to mask mandates and >> similar in those areas, OR we need to be willing to kick >> unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they fill, and let them >> die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if you chose a path >> that results in a higher risk of dying, then you should also take >> the risk of there not being an ICU bed available to you if you >> need it. >> >> There is also the concern about variants being generated by the >> virus continuing to run rampant among parts of the population. I'm >> going to ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy >> as then you have to start asking difficult questions about what >> the actual risk of this is versus the downside of forcing a >> population to either be vaccinated or continue quarantine+mask >> wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong enough evidence, >> either way, to make a decision here. >> >> The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need >> people to make their decision about being vaccinated based on >> actual facts. Not based on talking points or conspiracy theories >> from the left or the right. The vaccine isn't magnetic. The >> vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved has proven to have >> a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than COVID itself. No, >> the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly effective. No, >> the vaccines don't have tracking chips. Even if you survive >> COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having >> long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%). No, the >> vaccines don't alter your DNA. And on and on. >> >> Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around >> the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right. I totally >> respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get >> the vaccine. I can understand how two people who look at the >> facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the >> real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine. But the >> whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to >> people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed >> to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions >> based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that >> don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation >> where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors >> and suppositions. >> >> And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive >> lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that >> the left has their fair share as well. Which side has made up >> more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues >> largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue >> appear larger than it is. >> >> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron >> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical >> reason is. In this country, we have always allowed an >> individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with >> their doctor and their family and then make their own >> decision. The individual’s determination of necessity for a >> medical treatment may vary from person to person. Their >> perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting >> sick is not the same for every instance. Most people are >> pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of >> their situation. Are we now saying that the individual can >> no longer make this determination? That people are not smart >> enough to make the decision in their best interest? That >> someone on an email list knows better than each individual >> whether or not that individual should be taking any medical >> treatment including a vaccination? I hope we are not moving >> into an era in the country where people decide for others >> whether or not they should take any medical treatment, >> especially when we are talking about an experimental >> vaccine. If we are suggesting that the group can now make >> decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty >> slippery slope. I believe in the good of people and their >> ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts. >> I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough >> data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated. >> >> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated >> and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned >> that others are not vaccinated. The only people at risk are >> those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have >> accepted that risk. >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of * Robert >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >> >> David, >> Do you have any research of the percentage of people who >> "have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I >> don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population >> the is refusing that are not below the current age limit. I >> would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number >> not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity. >> >> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution >> for. >> >> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: >> >> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with >> AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids >> by sneezing. People have been prosecuted for infecting >> others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t want the >> vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come >> within 100’ of another person. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron >> <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this >> vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a >> myriad of other medications. Each decision should be >> based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical >> condition being treated. To think that you know >> everyone’s medical situation better than they do >> doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. >> To call them selfish for making a decision they >> believe is in their best medical interest seems overly >> judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to >> take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be >> forced to take a medical treatment against their >> will. You may feel that we should force them to take >> the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would >> feel the same about mandatory castration of young men >> to curb overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there >> is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the >> greater good. I am not attempting to determine where >> that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid >> medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine >> and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that >> decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am >> learning I see things differently than some other >> folks. So be it. >> >> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, >> but we still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work >> in order to save the human race. Seems like a >> disconnect there. >> >> If we were really so worried about infecting others or >> causing harm to others, we would avoid all other >> activities that create risk for others. We’d never >> drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. >> I doubt that very many of us on this list can say >> that. We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. >> We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass >> within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is >> risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being >> alive carries with it the risk of dying. We are all >> much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke >> related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. >> Those are just the facts. Many folks make small >> adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely causes >> of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to >> make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those >> causes of death. >> >> I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear >> of these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I >> respect the right of folks to make the best choice for >> their situation. I also respect the right of someone >> who is not in the best physical condition to eat a >> steak. I realize that a drunk driver might kill me >> some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go >> to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are >> responsible enough not to drink and drive when they >> have had too much. >> >> Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to >> our country if we never allowed anyone in or out of >> it. But we understand that certain personal freedoms >> are worth the possibility of catching a disease that >> might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass >> hypochondria surrounding this situation. >> >> Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just >> trying to keep perspective. I just don’t >> understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they >> are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe >> the vaccine will work because if it does, there is >> nothing to worry about. >> >> I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like >> viruses, that it is with us permanently. We will >> have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll >> never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t >> getting vaccinated, but because it will always mutate >> ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus. >> Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on >> vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save >> lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines >> aren’t 100% effective……. 😊 >> >> I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a >> AIDS epidemic several years ago. Did we force people >> to stop having sex or many of the other high risk >> things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about >> AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and >> people still die from it. No one talks about it any >> more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. That >> is my bet. >> >> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am >> sure. My only original point was that there are >> valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. We >> can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should >> respect their right to chose. >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Carl >> Peterson >> *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >> <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >> >> No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public >> policy perspective, you need to pull on the levers >> that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. We >> know that a good percentage of people will follow a >> mask mandate. Even if most of that group is >> vaccinated that lever will still do something since no >> vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that >> population is walking around as symptom-free carriers >> at any given time. >> >> Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way >> to lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to >> care about their neighbors or their country there >> isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever >> isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is >> about what is best for society vs what an individual >> thinks is best for themselves. An individual's >> personal risk of having serious Covid complications is >> pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to >> the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. >> them infecting other people, then it's hard to >> convince them to get vaccinated. >> >> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess >> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Why does someone who has made an informed choice >> not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have >> not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, >> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take >> my chances. >> >> *<image001.png>* >> >> *Dennis Burgess* >> >> * >> *Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” >> >> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support >> Services >> >> *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: >> http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net/> >> >> Create Wireless Coverage’s with >> www.towercoverage.com <http://www.towercoverage.com> >> >> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: >> https://cloud.linktechs.net >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of >> *Jan-GAMs >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >> >> There is no having a sane discussion on this >> topic. This is more like a whining child having >> an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed >> persons are a health hazard and attempting to >> explain this to a child is a bit difficult. Those >> who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in >> public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick >> with Covid there is the potential for a new >> variant even worse than the Delta variant. >> Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they >> are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to >> the public at large. >> >> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: >> >> I know, we can all make our own decisions. >> However, I don’t believe I have stated >> anything that varies from the facts. I can >> send you the Moderna sheet I received with my >> vaccine if you want to see that. >> >> Your points about FDA approval are probably >> accurate, however, why is not OK to say that I >> want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t >> seem so unreasonable. We don’t let folks on >> the plane based on the likelihood that those >> on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to >> get on the plane anyway. We still check each >> and every person to make sure. Just like we >> do the FDA approval process to make sure. >> Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies >> “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we >> won’t bother putting you through the approval >> process” We don’t do that for good reason. >> >> I agree with you on the memes both ways. >> Neither approach are helping the situation. >> It should be a discussion based upon the >> scientific merits of the situation. >> Unfortunately both side love to poke at the >> intelligence of those that don’t agree with >> their decision. >> >> There is no way to know this for sure, but I >> wonder how many folks publicly shaming others >> for not taking the vaccine know that it is not >> FDA approved? >> >> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, >> nor am I suggesting it should have. But I >> don’t think that those of us that decided to >> go ahead with the vaccination get to make >> medical decisions for those who aren’t >> comfortable with an experimental vaccine. >> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of >> *Adam Moffett >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >> >> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't >> agree with most of your list. >> >> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: >> >> Here is what I find particularly >> challenging about suggesting that folks >> who have chosen not to take the vaccine >> are not that smart. >> >> 1. Folks who do that never talk about >> that fact that this is not an FDA >> approved medicine/vaccine. I took >> the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork >> clearly stated several facts. Among >> them are: >> >> 1. This is not FDA approved. >> >> It has an emergency use authorization. FDA >> approval takes a long time, but around 90% of >> the submissions end up approved because they >> are pretty well tested by the manufacturer >> before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA >> approval already has a pretty good idea >> whether it's going to go through or not. >> Presumably people on a no-fly list don't >> routinely show up at the airport expecting to >> board a plane. Presumably people don't try to >> get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug >> test. Same idea. >> >> >> 1. >> 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven >> to prevent the virus. While we >> likely all agree that there is a >> very good likelihood that this >> “vaccine” will help prevent it, it >> is far from a proven fact. >> >> 99% of people dying of Covid right now are >> un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say >> maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming >> infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying. >> >> >> 1. >> >> 1. The argument is, “there should be no >> reason to think this vaccine isn’t >> safe since people aren’t dying from >> taking the vaccine”. >> >> I've never heard such an argument. >> >> >> 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of >> medical treatment. Every medicine you >> take has some level of side effect. >> The vast majority of medicines have >> such negligible side effects, that >> they are considered completely safe. >> The FDA approval process exists to >> ensure we understand the potential of >> serious side effects and drug >> interaction issues. If you are 30 >> years old and folks are saying you >> have to take this experimental drug to >> prevent this incredibly small chance >> of you becoming seriously ill or >> dying, it seems like an intelligent >> thing to say “I am not sure the risk >> of getting seriously ill or dying from >> this disease outweighs the risk of >> using an experimental drug”. It used >> to be that people relied upon a >> conversation with their doctor to >> determine personal risk of disease and >> use of a drug. Apparently we no longer >> do that. We publicly shame people >> into using experimental drugs. >> >> >> >> >> 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t >> have a full understanding of drug >> interactions with other medicines >> folks need to take. >> >> It isn't some weird new chemical we just >> invented this year. >> >> >> >> 1. We likely understand the very common >> medicines, but, certainly not all. >> We have FDA approval processes for >> good reason. If for example, you >> were under 40 and were taking seizure >> control medication, it would be very >> fair to hold off on an experimental >> drug until it is fully understood if >> the vaccine might lessen the >> effectiveness of the seizure control >> medication. An incredibly low risk >> of serious illness or death from the >> virus could turn into a good chance of >> serious injury from seizure. As far >> as I know data like that is certainly >> not available yet. >> >> >> >> >> 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need >> to belittle those that have decided >> not to get vaccinated by an >> experimental drug? >> >> I don't know the answer to that. I'm not >> comfortable with that behavior either. It >> goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out >> there accusing people of being dumb sheep for >> taking the vaccine. >> >> -- AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> -- >> -- AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> >> -- AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> >> -- - Forrest >> -- AF mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> > > -- > *Jay Weekley* > *Cyber Broadband > * > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > [email protected] > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list [email protected] http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
