Delta variant = Cobolt Thorium G Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 24, 2021, at 9:32 PM, Chuck Macenski <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Assuming the vaccine is 90% effective, your neighbor (vaccinated) has a 9 in > 10 chance of not getting it. Unvaccinated, your neighbor will get it (per > your scenario) and now has the ability to infect others. A good analogy is > critical-mass in a nuclear reactor; the vaccine represents the control rods > and the infected represent the decaying isotope. Drop the control rods and > the reaction stops - pull them out and the reaction goes super-critical. > > I wish I could tie this to Dr. Strangelove, but it is late and I am tired. > > > >> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 9:27 PM Steve Jones <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> I laugh at the whole "get vaccinated so you dont give it to your neighbor" >> coming from the vaccinated who are spreading it to their neighbors. >> >> Good lulz. >> >> Anybody wanna charter a flight from texas to dc? >> >>> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 8:01 PM Chuck McCown via AF <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Run Forrest >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> > On Jul 24, 2021, at 6:09 PM, Jay Weekley <[email protected]> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Yay Alabama. >>> > >>> > Jaime Solorza wrote: >>> >> Getting vaccinated is just the correct thing to do...like polio and >>> >> other ones.. >>> >> I don't see it as an infringement on my rights at all. >>> >> Families are dying in the south mostly...the virus doesn't give a shit >>> >> what you believe... >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 4:38 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) >>> >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I've been trying to stay out of this to avoid stirring this up >>> >> further, but, it's probably time for me to stick my $0.02 in... >>> >> >>> >> One primary role of government is to make rules or laws in places >>> >> where people's rights (or opinions) come in conflict with each other. >>> >> >>> >> Pre-vaccine, the most likely way for me to be protected from >>> >> infection is if other people behaved like they might be a >>> >> carrier. That is, limit social interaction, stay away from other >>> >> people if possible, wear masks, practice good hygiene. Some >>> >> people didn't want to do this. Other people didn't want to be >>> >> infected, but couldn't protect themselves effectively. Both >>> >> sides had rights - the right to do what one wants vs the right not >>> >> to be infected by others who are a carrier. Add to that the right >>> >> of being able to have an ICU bed available if you did end up >>> >> infected. At this point, the government needed to step in and >>> >> make a decision about who's rights were going to be protected, and >>> >> because of the nature of COVID, most places ended up choosing the >>> >> rights of people not to be infected. >>> >> >>> >> Post-vaccine this conversation changes. Now I have a way to >>> >> protect myself. Post-vaccination, my risk of dying or having >>> >> long-term effects from COVID is more like dying from the flu (if >>> >> not less). As a result, now that anyone who wants a shot can get >>> >> one, I really could care less whether someone else wears a mask or >>> >> gets vaccinated. Your choice. And the government rules should >>> >> reflect that, which most of them do at this point. >>> >> >>> >> There is one main caveat, and that is that in some areas we're >>> >> going to have a resurgence of COVID among (mostly) the >>> >> unvaccinated. If unvaccinated people start to fill the hospital >>> >> ICU wards, then either we need to go back to mask mandates and >>> >> similar in those areas, OR we need to be willing to kick >>> >> unvaccinated people out of the ICU when they fill, and let them >>> >> die of COVID at home. Yes, this is cold, but if you chose a path >>> >> that results in a higher risk of dying, then you should also take >>> >> the risk of there not being an ICU bed available to you if you >>> >> need it. >>> >> >>> >> There is also the concern about variants being generated by the >>> >> virus continuing to run rampant among parts of the population. >>> >> I'm going to ignore this as this makes my point a bit more messy >>> >> as then you have to start asking difficult questions about what >>> >> the actual risk of this is versus the downside of forcing a >>> >> population to either be vaccinated or continue quarantine+mask >>> >> wearing. I'm not convinced that there is strong enough evidence, >>> >> either way, to make a decision here. >>> >> >>> >> The other point which continues to be frustrating is that we need >>> >> people to make their decision about being vaccinated based on >>> >> actual facts. Not based on talking points or conspiracy theories >>> >> from the left or the right. The vaccine isn't magnetic. The >>> >> vaccine, although still not fully FDA approved has proven to have >>> >> a lower statistical risk of bad outcomes than COVID itself. No, >>> >> the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it is highly effective. >>> >> No, the vaccines don't have tracking chips. Even if you survive >>> >> COVID-19 (99% chance of doing so), the likelihood of having >>> >> long-term health effects is much higher (over 10%). No, the >>> >> vaccines don't alter your DNA. And on and on. >>> >> >>> >> Sadly, it seems that the worst of these conspiracy theories around >>> >> the vaccine and COVID continue to come from the right. I totally >>> >> respect people who look at the real facts and decide not to get >>> >> the vaccine. I can understand how two people who look at the >>> >> facts can choose either way, although I do believe that with the >>> >> real facts, most people would end up with the vaccine. But the >>> >> whole slew of made-up crap that is circulating is detrimental to >>> >> people actually being able to make an informed decision as opposed >>> >> to jumping on this or that conspiracy theory and making decisions >>> >> based on that. Add to that a healthy dose of ignoring facts that >>> >> don't match up with one's world view and you've got a situation >>> >> where many people make decisions based not on facts but on rumors >>> >> and suppositions. >>> >> >>> >> And before someone thinks I'm saying the right has an exclusive >>> >> lock on conspiracy theories, I need to state for the record that >>> >> the left has their fair share as well. Which side has made up >>> >> more crap seems to revolve around the issue, with some issues >>> >> largely just being both sides making up crap to make the issue >>> >> appear larger than it is. >>> >> >>> >> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:13 AM David Coudron >>> >> <[email protected] >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> This is the key to the issue. Who decides what a valid medical >>> >> reason is. In this country, we have always allowed an >>> >> individual to discuss and evaluate medical treatments with >>> >> their doctor and their family and then make their own >>> >> decision. The individual’s determination of necessity for a >>> >> medical treatment may vary from person to person. Their >>> >> perception of risk of treatment versus reward of not getting >>> >> sick is not the same for every instance. Most people are >>> >> pretty smart and will make decision in the best interest of >>> >> their situation. Are we now saying that the individual can >>> >> no longer make this determination? That people are not smart >>> >> enough to make the decision in their best interest? That >>> >> someone on an email list knows better than each individual >>> >> whether or not that individual should be taking any medical >>> >> treatment including a vaccination? I hope we are not moving >>> >> into an era in the country where people decide for others >>> >> whether or not they should take any medical treatment, >>> >> especially when we are talking about an experimental >>> >> vaccine. If we are suggesting that the group can now make >>> >> decisions for mandatory medical procedures, that is a pretty >>> >> slippery slope. I believe in the good of people and their >>> >> ability to make a good decision when they have enough facts. >>> >> I suspect most unvaccinated folks will eventually have enough >>> >> data to determine they are ready to be vaccinated. >>> >> >>> >> Again, and I can’t say this enough, if a person is vaccinated >>> >> and they believe the vaccine works, why are they concerned >>> >> that others are not vaccinated. The only people at risk are >>> >> those who have decided not to be vaccinated and they have >>> >> accepted that risk. >>> >> >>> >> *From:* AF <[email protected] >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of * Robert >>> >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 8:53 PM >>> >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >>> >> >>> >> David, >>> >> Do you have any research of the percentage of people who >>> >> "have a valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine? I >>> >> don't imagine it's anywhere near the 45% of the US population >>> >> the is refusing that are not below the current age limit. I >>> >> would WAG that it's probably a lot less than the 20% number >>> >> not taking it that would get us to effective herd immunity. >>> >> >>> >> Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution >>> >> for. >>> >> >>> >> On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: >>> >> >>> >> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable. COVID is like someone with >>> >> AIDS spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids >>> >> by sneezing. People have been prosecuted for infecting >>> >> others with AIDS. Why not COVID? If you don’t want the >>> >> vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come >>> >> within 100’ of another person. >>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron >>> >> <[email protected]> >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this >>> >> vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a >>> >> myriad of other medications. Each decision should be >>> >> based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical >>> >> condition being treated. To think that you know >>> >> everyone’s medical situation better than they do >>> >> doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive. >>> >> To call them selfish for making a decision they >>> >> believe is in their best medical interest seems overly >>> >> judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to >>> >> take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be >>> >> forced to take a medical treatment against their >>> >> will. You may feel that we should force them to take >>> >> the treatment for the better good. I doubt you would >>> >> feel the same about mandatory castration of young men >>> >> to curb overcrowding of the earth. Obviously there >>> >> is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the >>> >> greater good. I am not attempting to determine where >>> >> that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid >>> >> medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine >>> >> and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that >>> >> decision. It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am >>> >> learning I see things differently than some other >>> >> folks. So be it. >>> >> >>> >> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, >>> >> but we still have to act like the vaccine doesn’t work >>> >> in order to save the human race. Seems like a >>> >> disconnect there. >>> >> >>> >> If we were really so worried about infecting others or >>> >> causing harm to others, we would avoid all other >>> >> activities that create risk for others. We’d never >>> >> drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car. >>> >> I doubt that very many of us on this list can say >>> >> that. We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. >>> >> We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass >>> >> within our accepted range. Keep in mind life is >>> >> risky. We don’t need to do stupid things, but being >>> >> alive carries with it the risk of dying. We are all >>> >> much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke >>> >> related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid. >>> >> Those are just the facts. Many folks make small >>> >> adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely causes >>> >> of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to >>> >> make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those >>> >> causes of death. >>> >> >>> >> I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear >>> >> of these things. While I chose to be vaccinated, I >>> >> respect the right of folks to make the best choice for >>> >> their situation. I also respect the right of someone >>> >> who is not in the best physical condition to eat a >>> >> steak. I realize that a drunk driver might kill me >>> >> some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go >>> >> to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are >>> >> responsible enough not to drink and drive when they >>> >> have had too much. >>> >> >>> >> Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to >>> >> our country if we never allowed anyone in or out of >>> >> it. But we understand that certain personal freedoms >>> >> are worth the possibility of catching a disease that >>> >> might kill us. I have a tough time with the mass >>> >> hypochondria surrounding this situation. >>> >> >>> >> Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just >>> >> trying to keep perspective. I just don’t >>> >> understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they >>> >> are already vaccinated. I guess they don’t believe >>> >> the vaccine will work because if it does, there is >>> >> nothing to worry about. >>> >> >>> >> I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like >>> >> viruses, that it is with us permanently. We will >>> >> have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll >>> >> never be rid of it. Not because people aren’t >>> >> getting vaccinated, but because it will always mutate >>> >> ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus. >>> >> Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on >>> >> vaccines, we absolutely should as it will save >>> >> lives. But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines >>> >> aren’t 100% effective……. 😊 >>> >> >>> >> I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a >>> >> AIDS epidemic several years ago. Did we force people >>> >> to stop having sex or many of the other high risk >>> >> things that led to AIDS? Does anyone even talk about >>> >> AIDS anymore? 32 million people died of AIDS and >>> >> people still die from it. No one talks about it any >>> >> more. Covid will be the same way in 10 years. That >>> >> is my bet. >>> >> >>> >> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am >>> >> sure. My only original point was that there are >>> >> valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated. We >>> >> can’t and shouldn’t know what they are, but should >>> >> respect their right to chose. >>> >> >>> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Carl >>> >> Peterson >>> >> *Sent:* Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM >>> >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>> >> <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >>> >> >>> >> No vaccination is 100% effective. From a public >>> >> policy perspective, you need to pull on the levers >>> >> that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1. We >>> >> know that a good percentage of people will follow a >>> >> mask mandate. Even if most of that group is >>> >> vaccinated that lever will still do something since no >>> >> vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that >>> >> population is walking around as symptom-free carriers >>> >> at any given time. >>> >> >>> >> Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way >>> >> to lower R0, but if someone is too self centered to >>> >> care about their neighbors or their country there >>> >> isn't much you can do to make them care. That lever >>> >> isn't doing much these days. The issue here really is >>> >> about what is best for society vs what an individual >>> >> thinks is best for themselves. An individual's >>> >> personal risk of having serious Covid complications is >>> >> pretty low so if they believe there is some risk to >>> >> the vaccine and don't account for externalities, e.g. >>> >> them infecting other people, then it's hard to >>> >> convince them to get vaccinated. >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess >>> >> <[email protected] >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Why does someone who has made an informed choice >>> >> not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA approved drug have >>> >> not sit out in timeout? This is a free society, >>> >> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take >>> >> my chances. >>> >> >>> >> *<image001.png>* >>> >> >>> >> *Dennis Burgess* >>> >> >>> >> * >>> >> *Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” >>> >> >>> >> *Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support >>> >> Services >>> >> >>> >> *Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: >>> >> http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net/> >>> >> >>> >> Create Wireless Coverage’s with >>> >> www.towercoverage.com <http://www.towercoverage.com> >>> >> >>> >> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: >>> >> https://cloud.linktechs.net >>> >> >>> >> *From:* AF <[email protected] >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of >>> >> *Jan-GAMs >>> >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM >>> >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >>> >> >>> >> There is no having a sane discussion on this >>> >> topic. This is more like a whining child having >>> >> an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed >>> >> persons are a health hazard and attempting to >>> >> explain this to a child is a bit difficult. Those >>> >> who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in >>> >> public. Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick >>> >> with Covid there is the potential for a new >>> >> variant even worse than the Delta variant. >>> >> Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they >>> >> are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to >>> >> the public at large. >>> >> >>> >> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I know, we can all make our own decisions. >>> >> However, I don’t believe I have stated >>> >> anything that varies from the facts. I can >>> >> send you the Moderna sheet I received with my >>> >> vaccine if you want to see that. >>> >> >>> >> Your points about FDA approval are probably >>> >> accurate, however, why is not OK to say that I >>> >> want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t >>> >> seem so unreasonable. We don’t let folks on >>> >> the plane based on the likelihood that those >>> >> on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to >>> >> get on the plane anyway. We still check each >>> >> and every person to make sure. Just like we >>> >> do the FDA approval process to make sure. >>> >> Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies >>> >> “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we >>> >> won’t bother putting you through the approval >>> >> process” We don’t do that for good reason. >>> >> >>> >> I agree with you on the memes both ways. >>> >> Neither approach are helping the situation. >>> >> It should be a discussion based upon the >>> >> scientific merits of the situation. >>> >> Unfortunately both side love to poke at the >>> >> intelligence of those that don’t agree with >>> >> their decision. >>> >> >>> >> There is no way to know this for sure, but I >>> >> wonder how many folks publicly shaming others >>> >> for not taking the vaccine know that it is not >>> >> FDA approved? >>> >> >>> >> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, >>> >> nor am I suggesting it should have. But I >>> >> don’t think that those of us that decided to >>> >> go ahead with the vaccination get to make >>> >> medical decisions for those who aren’t >>> >> comfortable with an experimental vaccine. >>> >> >>> >> *From:* AF <[email protected]> >>> >> <mailto:[email protected]> *On Behalf Of >>> >> *Adam Moffett >>> >> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM >>> >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political >>> >> >>> >> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't >>> >> agree with most of your list. >>> >> >>> >> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Here is what I find particularly >>> >> challenging about suggesting that folks >>> >> who have chosen not to take the vaccine >>> >> are not that smart. >>> >> >>> >> 1. Folks who do that never talk about >>> >> that fact that this is not an FDA >>> >> approved medicine/vaccine. I took >>> >> the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork >>> >> clearly stated several facts. Among >>> >> them are: >>> >> >>> >> 1. This is not FDA approved. >>> >> >>> >> It has an emergency use authorization. FDA >>> >> approval takes a long time, but around 90% of >>> >> the submissions end up approved because they >>> >> are pretty well tested by the manufacturer >>> >> before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA >>> >> approval already has a pretty good idea >>> >> whether it's going to go through or not. >>> >> Presumably people on a no-fly list don't >>> >> routinely show up at the airport expecting to >>> >> board a plane. Presumably people don't try to >>> >> get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug >>> >> test. Same idea. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 1. >>> >> 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven >>> >> to prevent the virus. While we >>> >> likely all agree that there is a >>> >> very good likelihood that this >>> >> “vaccine” will help prevent it, it >>> >> is far from a proven fact. >>> >> >>> >> 99% of people dying of Covid right now are >>> >> un-vaccinated. We can split hairs and say >>> >> maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming >>> >> infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 1. >>> >> >>> >> 1. The argument is, “there should be no >>> >> reason to think this vaccine isn’t >>> >> safe since people aren’t dying from >>> >> taking the vaccine”. >>> >> >>> >> I've never heard such an argument. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of >>> >> medical treatment. Every medicine you >>> >> take has some level of side effect. >>> >> The vast majority of medicines have >>> >> such negligible side effects, that >>> >> they are considered completely safe. >>> >> The FDA approval process exists to >>> >> ensure we understand the potential of >>> >> serious side effects and drug >>> >> interaction issues. If you are 30 >>> >> years old and folks are saying you >>> >> have to take this experimental drug to >>> >> prevent this incredibly small chance >>> >> of you becoming seriously ill or >>> >> dying, it seems like an intelligent >>> >> thing to say “I am not sure the risk >>> >> of getting seriously ill or dying from >>> >> this disease outweighs the risk of >>> >> using an experimental drug”. It used >>> >> to be that people relied upon a >>> >> conversation with their doctor to >>> >> determine personal risk of disease and >>> >> use of a drug. Apparently we no longer >>> >> do that. We publicly shame people >>> >> into using experimental drugs. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t >>> >> have a full understanding of drug >>> >> interactions with other medicines >>> >> folks need to take. >>> >> >>> >> It isn't some weird new chemical we just >>> >> invented this year. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 1. We likely understand the very common >>> >> medicines, but, certainly not all. >>> >> We have FDA approval processes for >>> >> good reason. If for example, you >>> >> were under 40 and were taking seizure >>> >> control medication, it would be very >>> >> fair to hold off on an experimental >>> >> drug until it is fully understood if >>> >> the vaccine might lessen the >>> >> effectiveness of the seizure control >>> >> medication. An incredibly low risk >>> >> of serious illness or death from the >>> >> virus could turn into a good chance of >>> >> serious injury from seizure. As far >>> >> as I know data like that is certainly >>> >> not available yet. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need >>> >> to belittle those that have decided >>> >> not to get vaccinated by an >>> >> experimental drug? >>> >> >>> >> I don't know the answer to that. I'm not >>> >> comfortable with that behavior either. It >>> >> goes both ways though. Plenty of memes out >>> >> there accusing people of being dumb sheep for >>> >> taking the vaccine. >>> >> >>> >> -- AF mailing list >>> >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> -- AF mailing list >>> >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- AF mailing list >>> >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- - Forrest >>> >> -- AF mailing list >>> >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > -- >>> > *Jay Weekley* >>> > *Cyber Broadband >>> > * >>> > >>> > -- >>> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. >>> > https://www.avg.com >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > AF mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> -- >> AF mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- > AF mailing list > [email protected] > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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