Probably. I suppose I should ask.
From: Mike Hammett
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 7:28 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
Does the company you purchase your SAF stuff from do it, though?
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 7:53:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
Saf does not
On Feb 11, 2018 9:06 PM, "Adam Moffett" <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
Trango did. They subbed out the coordination and licensing to Radyn, but I
don't think they marked it up much.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/11/2018 8:52:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
If I have been offered a package, I cannot remember it. If I turned it
down it was because I could save money by not taking the package.
So, if this exists, it exists. Does SAF do this? Last radios I put up
were SAF.
From: Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 5:45 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
I am guessing you don't know this.. but every distributor that is selling
license radios, offers a 'licensing coordination' package. In case of Mimosa,
they actually have an arrangement with one of the coordinators to get the job
done at a discounted rate.
So, what I am missing... ?
Regards.
Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 4:24:07 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
If you are selling radios that need licenses, I would think that perhaps
you should get some kind of bulk deal and pass the saving along to your
customers. Radio, antenna, license – all in a package for one simple price.
Right now we buy the car at one place, then we go across the street and
buy tires and put them on the car, then we push it to the gas station for gas.
Ford may not be in the business of refining petroleum or making tires, but can
certainly drive the car off the lot. And in all cases in recent memory the
dealership also does everything necessary for obtaining the license plate too.
From: Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:40 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
>>.I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy.
Here is the part that I love about the WISP's... Everyone is Opinionated
to the Nth degree without explanation or possible understanding of why they
have such an opinion..... and that is ok, as long as it is expressed in that
context ...
As an engineer, I tend to dismiss all opinions, unless the person
offering the opinion can offer an explanation which has some sound technical
backing to support it.. Similarly, I also tend to dismiss the "I love it"
opinions, unless they are backed up to the reason why.
I am happy to see lots of options in the market space, no one can please
everyone ..... FWIW, We use gear from many different mfg. each for their
strengths, and not their weaknesses. We find that each of these products shine
in the different ares of the three common requirement that everyone has.. Needs
to be Good Quality, Fast Performance, and Cost Effective..
In regards to the debate about Freq., I will suggest to the OP that do a
little bit of reading on the fade characteristics of different Freq. is, this
is physics, and totally vendor agnostic, and this will greatly help you in
gaining a better understanding of what is the difference one can expect
between 24Gz/23GHZ/18GHZ/11GHZ/6GHZ etc.. for their deployment region.. (I
agree with Steve, in regards to the missing context of rain zone, and I also
agree with Mike H.. that Rain zone's are a rough guide, not an absolute ref ).
I am a bit puzzled about Chuck M's comment about the Cost of License
being high ? and a desire to purchase a 'bundle' which includes coordination
etc... I would like to see if Chuck can elaborate a bit more on this...
:)
Happy Weekend.
Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
http://www.snappytelecom.net
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:25:17 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. I havent seen much bad
about the 5ghz stuff
On Feb 11, 2018 9:47 AM, "Mike Hammett" <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas.
-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz
Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain
region. Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and tells
you 24 GHZ is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im mercan) but
some guy in a desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6 miles, I dont care
about him here, he doesnt care about me there. If you get into the higher
frequencies yout rain zone, it really matters.
but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing
on th market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally
nothing.... Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier classes
for 200mb... just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else. You have to
remember, UBNT 24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a Motorola product.
Just before Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys.
11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a
dick about it. Like central Illinois wanting to put up a link. If your in
central Indiana, you can contest... This is fact, we just had to trade off 10db
to get a link because it was contested 100 miles away, because our max EIRP
could impact that link during its lowest rain fade hundreds of miles away. Im
not complaining, if I had their GIS and hired guns, I would have done it too.
however, I literally can come in across the street on your 24 ghz
link, put it on the same channel as you and just pump out on maximum power all
day. You know what you can do? you can go to Starbucks, get yourelf a nice
double frappe vanilla bean, half caf, choco humpagoat with double froth, and
take it to your shop, set it in the middle of your chair and sit on it while
humming Mary had a little lamb. Thats it, thats the end of your recourse.
And dont ever talk about Mimosa again. Its garbage. If I was going to
put another link up outside of what I can do again, I wouldnt touch Mimosa, not
if the Mimosa CEO sent their grandmother to service me and thirteen of my
friends. The only reason to put Mimosa up beyond 3 miles is to lawfully squat
some spectrum on the cheap.
FWIW
Harshish words, I know, but this is all stuff I learned the hard way,
Im only a decade into this nonsense, I wish some prick had shown up and smacked
me like a wife who didnt have the pot pies in the oven on time long before I
made some bad decisions, You have to treat all your gear like a woman. Know
where you are and what her scope is in that area. Dont go full bukakee on a
housewife.
On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 11:13 PM, Bill Prince <part15...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability
from the AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high
throughput. We gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in
congested areas anyway.
bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum
compared to the B11, but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted),
so it can do more throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig
in one direction with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but
you can only get around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real
full duplex radio though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you need a
50/50 split).
On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince
<part15...@gmail.com> wrote:
What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or
so) 24 GHz. Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz.
Longest 6 GHz.
I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more
throughput on less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.
bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would
throw it out again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to
evolve.�� We have been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products
for the last couple of years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us,
but we are starting to see more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d
like to make the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24
GHz for that.�� The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which
pushes the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line of site
we think we are in range for the links we are looking at as far as the design
tools tell us.�� For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product
line, we know it pretty well and have all the management tools in place for
it.�� For 24 GHz we�d likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24
HD.�� We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and there, and just don�t
have much familiarity with any other options outside of AirFiber.� Here is
where we see the Pros and Cons of the two options:
�
Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:
a.. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of
the license and require less babysitting for interference
1.. Should support longer links, but that isn�t a big
consideration for us as it looks like everything we will need is under the
limits of the HD for sure and likely the AF 24 as well
a.. Little less susceptible to rain fade
�
Cons:
1.. Have to mess around with the license and there is a
cost associated with it
2.. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use
before applying for the license
3.. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF
24 HD)
4.. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less
than the HD)
�
�
Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:
1.. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on
hand for all links
2.. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker
to deploy
3.. Higher throughput on the HD
�
Cons:
1.. Unlicensed.� Might fight other noise out there, and
even quiet links now might have noise later
2.. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with
Mimosa, although this isn�t a big consideration as we have worked with lots
of Ubiquiti products
a.. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link
�
Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:
1.. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move
channels if you see other noise out there?�� We have been looking but are
finding it tough to figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we
be able to move to other channels.
2.. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate
IP traffic across any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?�� Seems
like a well planned link with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to,
but looking for some real world experience.
a.. Any oddball items we should take into consideration
other than the ones already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious
questions?
�
Thanks,
�
David Coudron
�
