Probably.  I suppose I should ask.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

Does the company you purchase your SAF stuff from do it, though?

Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP


From: "Steve Jones" <>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 7:53:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

Saf does not

On Feb 11, 2018 9:06 PM, "Adam Moffett" <> wrote:

  Trango did.  They subbed out the coordination and licensing to Radyn, but I 
don't think they marked it up much.

  ------ Original Message ------
  From: "Chuck McCown" <>
  Sent: 2/11/2018 8:52:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

    If I have been offered a package, I cannot remember it.  If I turned it 
down it was because I could save money by not taking the package.  

    So, if this exists, it exists.  Does SAF do this?  Last radios I put up 
were SAF.  

    From: Faisal Imtiaz 
    Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 5:45 PM
    Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

    I am guessing you don't know this.. but every distributor that is selling 
license radios, offers a 'licensing coordination' package. In case of Mimosa, 
they actually have an arrangement with one of the coordinators to get the job 
done at a discounted rate.

    So, what I am missing... ?


    Faisal Imtiaz
    Snappy Internet & Telecom

    Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

    Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email:


      From: "Chuck McCown" <>
      Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 4:24:07 PM 

      Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

      If you are selling radios that need licenses, I would think that perhaps 
you should get some kind of bulk deal and pass the saving along to your 
customers.  Radio, antenna, license – all in a package for one simple price. 

      Right now we buy the car at one place, then we go across the street and 
buy tires and put them on the car, then we push it to the gas station for gas.  
Ford may not be in the business of refining petroleum or making tires, but can 
certainly drive the car off the lot.  And in all cases in recent memory the 
dealership also does everything necessary for obtaining the license plate too. 

      From: Faisal Imtiaz
      Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 1:40 PM
      Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

      >>.I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. 

      Here is the part that I love about the WISP's... Everyone is Opinionated 
to the Nth degree without explanation or possible understanding of why they 
have such an opinion..... and that is ok, as long as it is expressed in that 
context ...

      As an engineer, I tend to dismiss all opinions, unless the person 
offering the opinion can offer an explanation which has some sound technical 
backing to support it.. Similarly, I also tend to dismiss the "I love it" 
opinions, unless they are backed up to the reason why.

      I am happy to see lots of options in the market space, no one can please 
everyone ..... FWIW, We use gear from many different mfg. each for their 
strengths, and not their weaknesses. We find that each of these products shine 
in the different ares of the three common requirement that everyone has.. Needs 
to be Good Quality, Fast Performance, and Cost Effective..

      In regards to the debate about Freq., I will suggest to the OP that do a 
little bit of reading on the fade characteristics of different Freq. is, this 
is physics, and totally vendor agnostic, and this will greatly help you in  
gaining  a better understanding of what is the difference one can expect 
between 24Gz/23GHZ/18GHZ/11GHZ/6GHZ etc.. for their deployment region.. (I 
agree with Steve, in regards to the missing context of rain zone, and I also 
agree with Mike H.. that Rain zone's are a rough guide, not an absolute ref  ).

      I am a bit puzzled about Chuck M's comment about the Cost of License 
being high ? and a desire to purchase a 'bundle' which includes coordination 
etc... I would like to see if Chuck can elaborate a bit more on this...


      Happy Weekend.

      Faisal Imtiaz
      Snappy Internet & Telecom

      Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232

      Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email:


        From: "Steve Jones" <>

        Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:25:17 AM 

        Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

        I should have caveated that, b11 is crummy. I havent seen much bad 
about the 5ghz stuff

        On Feb 11, 2018 9:47 AM, "Mike Hammett" <> wrote:

          Mimosa 5 GHz works great for me. Don't use shit antennas.

          Mike Hammett
          Intelligent Computing Solutions

          Midwest Internet Exchange

          The Brothers WISP


          From: "Steve Jones" <>
          Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 12:34:23 AM
          Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 24 GHz vs 11 GHz

          Seriously, these questions, please, please, please! State your rain 
region. Here,. id like to punch anybody in the eye who lies to you and tells 
you 24 GHZ is a good idea over 1.2 miles ( I dont care the KM Im mercan) but 
some guy in a desert might tell you its an awesome idea at 6 miles, I dont care 
about him here, he doesnt care about me there. If you get into the higher 
frequencies yout rain zone, it really matters. 
          but when it works, it works, and in 24 GHZ right now, theres nothing 
on th market that compares to AF, even if you skimp on the HD. Literally 
nothing.... Ive looked. you can pay 10k with the other actual carrier classes 
for 200mb... just not worth it, if 24 works to go anywhere else. You have to 
remember, UBNT 24ghz (airfiber) is NOT a UBNT product, its a Motorola product. 
Just before Motorola shit canned, UBNT bought \theirguys.

          11ghz, totally different beast. you OWN the channel, and you can be a 
dick about it. Like central Illinois wanting to put up a link. If your in 
central Indiana, you can contest... This is fact, we just had to trade off 10db 
to get a link because it was contested 100 miles away, because our max EIRP 
could impact that link during its lowest rain fade hundreds of miles away. Im 
not complaining, if I had their GIS and hired guns, I would have done it too.

          however, I literally can come in across the street on your 24 ghz 
link, put it on the same channel as you and just pump out on maximum power all 
day. You know what you can do? you can go to Starbucks, get yourelf a nice 
double frappe vanilla bean, half caf, choco humpagoat with double froth, and 
take it to your shop, set it in the middle of your chair and sit on it while 
humming Mary had a little lamb. Thats it, thats the end of your recourse.

          And dont ever talk about Mimosa again. Its garbage. If I was going to 
put another link up outside of what I can do again, I wouldnt touch Mimosa, not 
if the Mimosa CEO sent their grandmother to service me and thirteen of my 
friends. The only reason to put Mimosa up beyond 3 miles is to lawfully squat 
some spectrum on the cheap.


          Harshish words, I know, but this is all stuff I learned the hard way, 
Im only a decade into this nonsense, I wish some prick had shown up and smacked 
me like a wife who didnt have the pot pies in the oven on time long before I 
made some bad decisions, You have to treat all your gear like a woman. Know 
where you are and what her scope is in that area. Dont go full bukakee on a 

          On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 11:13 PM, Bill Prince <> 

            Our experience has been we get more throughput and more reliability 
from the AF11 than the B11. The B11s always seemed to be choking on high 
throughput. We gave up on them, and the AF11s are easier to license in 
congested areas anyway.


On 2/10/2018 5:12 PM, Mathew Howard wrote:

              Yes, the AF11 can do more throughput on the same spectrum 
compared to the B11, but the B11 can use more spectrum (a lot more, granted), 
so it can do more throughput than the AF11 can. You can get close to a full gig 
in one direction with the B11 (assuming you can license enough spectrum), but 
you can only get around 650Mbps in one direction with the AF11 (it's a real 
full duplex radio though, so aggregate isn't that much different if you need a 
50/50 split).

              On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Bill Prince 
<> wrote:

                What others have said about distance. Short (up to 3 miles or 
so) 24 GHz. Medium (up to 8-9 miles) 18 GHz. Long (up to 20 miles) 11 GHz. 
Longest 6 GHz.

                I disagree with the B11 versus AF11. The AF11 will provide more 
throughput on less spectrum. Probably less expensive too.


On 2/10/2018 2:57 PM, David Coudron wrote:

                  I know this topic has come up before, but thought I would 
throw it out again to hear additional thoughts as products continue to 
evolve.�� We have been doing primarily 5 GHz backhaul using Mimosa products 
for the last couple of years.�� Their frequency reuse has really helped us, 
but we are starting to see more locations that have lots of noise.�� We�d 
like to make the jump to higher frequencies and are looking at 11 GHz and 24 
GHz for that.�� The links we need are fairly short, 6-10 miles max, which 
pushes the limits of the 24 GHz solutions, but with a very clean line of site 
we think we are in range for the links we are looking at as far as the design 
tools tell us.�� For 11 GHz, we would likely stay with the Mimosa product 
line, we know it pretty well and have all the management tools in place for 
it.�� For 24 GHz we�d likely go with the Ubiquiti AF 24 or AF 24 
HD.�� We have worked with Ubiquiti stuff here and there, and just don�t 
have much familiarity with any other options outside of AirFiber.� Here is 
where we see the Pros and Cons of the two options:


                  Mimosa 11 GHz Pros:

                    a.. Licensed, should be clean spectrum for the full term of 
the license and require less babysitting for interference
                      1.. Should support longer links, but that isn�t a big 
consideration for us as it looks like everything we will need is under the 
limits of the HD for sure and likely the AF 24 as well
                    a.. Little less susceptible to rain fade


                    1.. Have to mess around with the license and there is a 
cost associated with it 
                    2.. Have to buy the dish separately, and know which to use 
before applying for the license 
                    3.. Not quite as much throughput (when compared to the AF 
24 HD) 
                    4.. More expensive that the AF 24 (but likely a little less 
than the HD)


                  Ubiquiti AF 24 Pros:

                    1.. All in one unit, easy to figure out what to have on 
hand for all links 
                    2.. No messing around with licenses, making it much quicker 
to deploy 
                    3.. Higher throughput on the HD


                      1.. Unlicensed.� Might fight other noise out there, and 
even quiet links now might have noise later 
                      2.. Not as familiar with this tool set as we are with 
Mimosa, although this isn�t a big consideration as we have worked with lots 
of Ubiquiti products
                    a.. Cost of HD is pretty high for an unlicensed link

                  Here are some questions we are hoping for help with:

                      1.. How much room in the unlicensed band is there to move 
channels if you see other noise out there?�� We have been looking but are 
finding it tough to figure out if we run wide channels, and see noise, will we 
be able to move to other channels. 
                      2.. Is it reasonable to think you can push 1.2 aggregate 
IP traffic across any of the three options B11, AF24 or AF24HD?�� Seems 
like a well planned link with great line of site at 6 miles should be able to, 
but looking for some real world experience.
                    a.. Any oddball items we should take into consideration 
other than the ones already mentioned here? Or are we missing some obvious 



                  David Coudron


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