Colin: "A computed model of fire does not burst into flames. A computed model of cognition does not cognise. A computed model of flight does not fly."
I like the analogy (at least it made me think about it) even though I am not sure whether it is misleading. Is it not that people are trying to make computational models of wood, that can then be lit up (by running the program which would be akin to starting the (artificial) physics)? Then you get artificial fire... cheers martin 2012/6/5 Mike Tintner <[email protected]> > ** > > Colin: The AGI community is unique in the world and in the history of > science in expecting a computed model to _*be*_ the original. A computed > model of fire does not burst into flames. A computed model of cognition > does not cognise. A computed model of flight does not fly.**** > > ** ** > > You just won’t get it (see attached). This is a generational/acculturated > blind. J When we get over this it’ll be like a dam-burst of progress. > Right now were as stuck as we were in 1955. > > > > Colin, > > > > The AGI field - & it's the whole field, not just Ben & associates/ friends > here - is indeed unique. I certainly can't think of any field anywhere > that expects the old, existing paradigm that clearly doesn't work in the > new field - & hasn't ever worked in the slightest - to be capable of > solving it. > > > > The blindness and ignorance of the most basic principle of creativity - > BREAK ( and in this case shatter) the paradigm, don't WORSHIP it, Logan, > Ben et al - are truly awesome. > > *From:* Colin Geoffrey Hales <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:38 AM > *To:* AGI <[email protected]> > *Subject:* RE: [agi] Embodied approaches to computation > > Hi Logan,**** > > ** ** > > Already know about Turing Completeness. Irrelevant. The whole concept begs > computability. We do not know, for brains, if all processes in the brain > are computable. We do not know. Nobody knows. Question begging at best. > There are masses of uncomputable numbers. Human brains found them. Penrose > is right.**** > > ** ** > > Also, the universe _*as*_ a computation is not a model computed on a > computer. This is map/territory confusion on an industrial scale. There are > 2 essential things in brains:**** > > ** ** > > 1) Networked action potentials (an EM phenomenon expressed by > nano-scopic chemical-level transmembrane EM processes)**** > > 2) EM coupling (ephapsis). Action at a distance over 0.2mm scale > distances (ish), generated by 1).**** > > ** ** > > Everything else is EM noise or biological background overhead and can be > replaced by signal processing.**** > > ** ** > > 1) And 2) are what you use to make an AGI. You do not simulate, emulate or > mimic either of them. You *replicate* the physics of them. You do not > replace the EM fields with the EM fields of a computer that waves a model > about in a manner that is totally detached from the field expression and > different from one computer to another, even one program invocation to > another. **** > > ** ** > > The AGI community is unique in the world and in the history of science in > expecting a computed model to _*be*_ the original. A computed model of > fire does not burst into flames. A computed model of cognition does not > cognise. A computed model of flight does not fly.**** > > ** ** > > You just won’t get it (see attached). This is a generational/acculturated > blind. J When we get over this it’ll be like a dam-burst of progress. > Right now were as stuck as we were in 1955.**** > > ** ** > > So I’ll leave it there. **** > > ** ** > > No I won’t. I’ll write it up and publish it someplace.**** > > ** ** > > Cheers**** > > Colin**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Logan Streondj [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 June 2012 3:31 PM > *To:* AGI > *Subject:* Re: [agi] Embodied approaches to computation**** > > ** ** > > Colin, please learn about turing completeness. > All concievable algorithms can be represented. > > The biophysics of the brain has long since been simulated via neural nets. > Now we are simply working on various ways of coalescing data and > algorithms. > > For instance OpenCog is comprised of many different "Weak" or "narrow" AI > algorithms. Can think of it as add several "narrows" and you get a > "wide", though there is of course also the interface, of how to use them > and such. > > Human language is a mode of intercommunication across space and time, and > thus can be used as an interface. As am implementing in General > Intelligence Operating System. > > So yes while there may be many details to a biological cell, it has a > basic plan of it's function or structure, written in DNA, the source code > language of the body. > > Our bodies give us stability, sense of space and continuity, also allowing > us to modify the surrounding world. Those are the basic turing abilities , > which make us infinite beings, capable of creating any conceivable idea. > > This humans, computers, animals, plants, rocks, wind, fire all have in > common. > We are all beings of light in bodies of geometrical form. > Simply in different amounts of knowledge, > collected useful light or past-experience. > > So wheras biological brains store information is a neural-net, which gets > partially over-written with every reading, i.e. every time you remember > something, you're recreating the memory. > Technological brains allow a wider variety of storage options, with > potentially higher stability. > > The road to transhumanism started, when people began using tools, the > road to AGI started with writing. > There are billions of people around the world that worship a few select > books. > Many people ascribe great intelligence to these books. > > Indeed writing is what underpins rights, righteousness, and justice. The > bulk of the world economy is based on some electronic writings > > So in conclusion, > while physics may be relevant to psychic phenomena, > language is more relevant to intelligence.. > > Besides once there is sufficient knowledge, > we'll know how to sense what the human pineal-gland or mind's eye can. > > Logan Streondj **** > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11721311-f886df0a>| > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > **** > > <http://www.listbox.com>**** > > ** ** > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10872673-8f99760d> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
