John,
JOHN> Not all rational conclusions are arrived at rationally. Or, sometimes you have to exit, or disengage the system of rationality to reach a rational destination. Like a computer program that generates chaos out of which emerges self-organization. SERGIO> I am in full agreement, and self-organization is an excellent example. JOHN> What connects the two? SERGIO> The action functional. Which, by the way, does exhibit the "butterfly effect" (I published it). JOHN> GI is the act of engaging and disengaging systems, changing computational models and languages per system or environment, being able to switch between them, generating languages and models based on input, ... SERGIO> All this material, is the product of your intelligence, and of the intelligence of all humans that you learned from. I am not interested in products. I am interested in the process that creates the products, the process that runs in your brain, and in all those other people's brains, and has allowed them to create all those results. That would be, for me, an AGI. JOHN> . but somehow maintaining an operating paradigm across engagements. SERGIO> My operating environment is Physics. I subscribe to the paradigm of Physics. So, IMO, once the AGI machine is built, all the work is in supplying it with the causal information that led to those products, one at a time, remove the entropy to cause self-organization, and compare the human results with what the AGI did. I admit this is a lot of work, but is much easier than writing computer simulations for each one of the products. My approach is very different from all others. It is more like a child that goes to school and learns for years and years until one day she learns about disengaging systems, changing computational models, etc. And is able to understand it because she has acquired the necessary background. My approach does that naturally, no other approach I know of can do it. JOHN> How this builds up, arriving at that might not be rational. In my mind the structure is rational but I think due to a real world with finite computational constraints it won't work out that way, as with evolved biological intelligences they just turn out however they turn out. Real environments are so glocally non-homogenous. SERGIO> Again, I am in full agreement. JOHN> This is where the fancy mathematical footwork is IMO. SERGIO> The last part, after the not rational is done, is to select the (very rare and extremely simple) cases where a theorem can be proved, and prove it. Sergio From: John G. Rose [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 12:44 PM To: AGI Subject: RE: [agi] How Steve can be creative (or: The Nature of Intelligence/AGI) Not all rational conclusions are arrived at rationally. Or.. sometimes you have to exit, or disengage the system of rationality to reach a rational destination. Like a computer program that generates chaos out of which emerges self-organization. What connects the two? GI is the act of engaging and disengaging systems, changing computational models and languages per system or environment, being able to switch between them, generating languages and models based on input, but somehow maintaining an operating paradigm across engagements. This is where the fancy mathematical footwork is IMO. How this builds up, arriving at that might not be rational. In my mind the structure is rational but I think due to a real world with finite computational constraints it won't work out that way, as with evolved biological intelligences they just turn out however they turn out. Real environments are so glocally non-homogenous. John From: Sergio Pissanetzky [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 10:09 AM To: AGI Subject: RE: [agi] How Steve can be creative (or: The Nature of Intelligence/AGI) John, my thoughts: JOHN> People that don't know math still do math as a general intelligence. JOHN> A typical non-math savvy person is executing advanced mathematics unbeknownst. SERGIO> It is the other way around. As you said "The human mind is a powerful mechanism that possibly transcends known mathematics." It is very easy to trascend Mathematics because, well, of what you also said: "Scientists are rationality bound." Nature does things, we observe them and react to them, we know them, that's our intelligence, then mathematicians select the (very few) things that can be rationally explained and make theories about them. So Mathematics is not a measure of truth. I understand and support what Mike is doing, but this is an AGI blog, and we are building a machine (or so we pretend). So Mike needs to channel his thoughts in that direction. Sergio From: John G. Rose [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 4:58 AM To: AGI Subject: RE: [agi] How Steve can be creative (or: The Nature of Intelligence/AGI) Steve, Your last response to Mike one of the best I've seen, generously, thoughtfully and carefully crafted it was a pleasure to read. Unfortunately you were stepping into his trap and wound up here like everyone else. Since Mike is so persistent I've tried to grasp what he is saying. My thoughts: 1) People that don't know math still do math as a general intelligence. 2) The human mind is a powerful mechanism that possibly transcends known mathematics. 3) A typical non-math savvy person is executing advanced mathematics unbeknownst. 4) Mike Tintner is assiduously pointing to these advanced mechanisms, those that are generally and mathematically known, and unknown with much overlap. As AGI'ers we know there are things we can't figure out. Mike knows that. He's using his own advanced mathematical execution engine to try to figure out some of the same stuff that we are trying to figure out. Going out on a limb here: Humans have been around for millennia trying to figure out how it all works, the world, humankind, the purpose, the predictions using their own presupplied intelligence engine of the mind without mathematics and computers and have at times in history arrived at "correct" answers to questions that we are still trying to establish the proof of now, scientifically. Scientists are rationality bound, as are engineers. Sometimes there is not a "right" computational model and you can throw Occam's Razor out the window. A splatting of smattering might cover it then melting away revealing elements of truth underneath a complex explanation for simplicity. John From: Steve Richfield [mailto:[email protected]] Mike, On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> wrote: Steve: You failed to respond to my assertion that if you can state it, that it is mathematical (or could easily be turned into mathematical notation paralleling the statement, and then manipulated using rules appropriate to the notation), and if you can't state it, then you can't possibly program it. "Line" ax = by + c "Number" This is atomic to math. "Shape" The interior area of f(x, y) that forms an enclosed area. "form" The constituents of something "Relationship" f where x=f(y) "Add" This is atomic to math. "Subtract" This is atomic to math. "Round" The nearest integer. "Square" To multiply by itself. there isn't a single CONCEPT that can be stated mathematically. Mathematics is about stating concepts. Or logically. Not a single word in the language. Put down a geometric square and it will not be remotely the same, or have the same infinite sphere of reference, as the *concept* of square. Obviously, we can't discuss concepts until we understand what they are, which is why we need some heavyweight R&D. And your ignorance/lack of imagination re the potential of programming, is comparable to that re conceptual thought - which is the foundation of AGI. Can anyone else on this forum make any sense at all of what Mike has been saying? Steve ======================== AGI | <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18883996-f0d58d57> Description: Image removed by sender.| <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Modify Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com/> Description: Image removed by sender. 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