On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: EVERY SINGLE creative product is the result of incorporating new, surprising elements. E.g. Gutenberg incorporating the action of the wine-press into printing. ________________________________________________________________________
I did not realize that Gutenberg had used a wine-press for his printing press! But that is an example of "synthesis". Mike seems to be saying that because the synthesis could not be a totally predefined process, that proves that synthesis is not algorithmic. From Gutenberg's view point he had knowledge of two mechanical systems so they were 'predefined' to him. One machine was the wine press and the other was whatever form of printing existed before he created his press. This is typical algorithmic combination. It shows that by selecting kinds of things that were important to him and by being aware of the qualities of a system that would be useful to him, he was able to make a creative synthesis based on those properties or features. Computer programmers do not need to "define" every possible thing that might exist in the world to make synthesis feasible for an AGI program. The program only needs to be able to detect different kinds of things. This can be done by using different kinds of methods. Right now the achievements in this area of AGI research are very limited but that does not mean that no one will be able to ever find a way to develop some kind of innovation to the field. Algorithmic creativity is the easy part. But Gutenberg's use of the wine press in his printing press is a perfect example of algorithmic creativity. It is also a great example of how some of the principals of AGI might work. Notice that Gutenberg was also very interested in using his own innovations to improve his printing methods. From Wikipedia: Johannes Gensfleisch zur Laden zum Gutenberg ([image: play] /<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English> j <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>oʊ<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> ˌ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>h<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> ɑː <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>n<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> ɨ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>s<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>ˈ<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> ɡ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>uː<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> t <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>ən<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> b <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>ɜr<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> ɡ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>/<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English> *yoh-HAH-nəs*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key> *GOO-tən-burɡ*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key>; c. 1398 – February 3, 1468) was a German<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany> blacksmith <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmith>, goldsmith<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldsmith>, printer <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_(publisher)>, and publisher<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publisher>who introduced printing <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing> to Europe. His invention of mechanical movable type <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type>printing started the Printing Revolution <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_Revolution> and is widely regarded as the most important event of the modern period<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_period> .[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg#cite_note-Man_of_the_Millenium-0>It played a key role in the development of the Renaissance <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance>, Reformation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation>, the Age of Enlightenment <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment>and the Scientific Revolution <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Revolution> and laid the material basis for the modern knowledge-based economy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge-based_economy>and the spread of learning to the masses<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratization_of_knowledge> .[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg#cite_note-1> Gutenberg was the first European to use movable type<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type>printing, in around 1439. Among his many contributions to printing are: the invention of a process for mass-producing movable type; the use of oil-based ink <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ink>; and the use of a wooden printing press similar to the agricultural screw presses<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_press>of the period. His truly epochal invention was the combination of these elements into a practical system which allowed the mass production of printed books and was economically viable for printers and readers alike. Gutenberg's method for making type is traditionally considered to have included a type metal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_metal> alloy and a hand mould <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_mould#Printing> for casting type. Jim Bromer _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > Arets: First of all, the burden remains on you to show us that there > is, ahem ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of creativity that is *not* the result of > recombination of the already existing elements. > > This is awesome ignorance. If we are talking about major cultural > creativity in any sphere within society, EVERY SINGLE creative product is > the result of incorporating new, surprising elements. > > > E.g. Gutenberg incorporating the action of the wine-press into printing. > E.g. Picasso incorporating the geometric faces of primitive art into > modern figurative painting – Demoiselles d’Avignon > E.g. the introduction of neural networks into computing > E.g. plot twists in millions of thrillers > > Hence theories of bisociation, conceptual blending for creativity. > > Which universe are you living in? > > Major creativity always incorporates new, > never-before-associated-in-this-sphere elements. > That’s what makes creativity creative – new surprising elements. Jeez. > That’s why we go “wow!” at creativity. > > And minor everyday creativity also incorporates new, never before > associated elements – even if “wow-less”. > > Every patchwork in a series of patchworks incorporates new, > non-formulaic shapes... as I have demonstrated here at length. > > Now you have to PRODUCE ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of a creative algorithm... > we’re waiting. Not excuses and crazy logic. Scientific evidence – one > example. > > The history of science is one of people believing one crazy paradigm > after another that got smashed. The “universally applicable algorithm” is > one of those crazy paradigms. > > P.S. Arets’ responses are in one way fascinating – he simply takes it > for granted, religiously unquestioningly for granted that algorithms are > creative. It is a religious, not a scientific belief. > > *From:* Arets Paeglis <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:10 PM > *To:* AGI <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [agi] Behold your saviour, Ben > > First of all, the burden remains on you to show us that there is, ahem ONE > FUCKING EXAMPLE of creativity that is *not* the result of recombination > of the already existing elements in ways that are both compressible (= > understandable) by the agent and yet previously unknown to it. Second, I > see no rational reason to assume that there even can be such 'exemption > from existence of rules' in the first place. > > -- > http://about.me/mindbound > > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
