On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote:
> Jim:This is typical algorithmic combination > ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of such a “typical” algorithm. One actual algorithm. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike, Just because you can't understand something it doesn't mean that it is not for real. You mean one example of a computer algorithm that - what - creates a novel synthesis of two ideas (or two concept things) that exist in the real world where the ideas (or concept things) were not specifically programmed into the algorithm? It is easy to make such algorithms. It is difficult to make such algorithms seem truly intelligent. I know that you disagree and I also know that you disagree because you can't understand what it is that I am talking about. Sorry. *An example is where a programmable art program finds the outlines of an image which is well contrasted against the background and then it cuts the image out and pastes it onto another image. That is one example of a synthesis of two distinct idea-concept-things which is accomplished through an art program where the concept-things were not predefined. The problem in computer art programs that if the there is not a high level of contrast between the object and the background it cannot make a good cut along the outline. However, even though it may not always make an interesting synthesis it will make the synthesis none-the-less! And just because you refuse to accept the example does not mean that it is not actually so.* I believe that this should reach you someday. Jim Bromer On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:22 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > Jim:This is typical algorithmic combination > > ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of such a “typical” algorithm. One actual algorithm. > > *From:* Jim Bromer <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 11, 2012 1:46 PM > *To:* AGI <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [agi] Behold your saviour, Ben > > On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Mike Tintner > <[email protected]>wrote: > EVERY SINGLE creative product is the result of incorporating new, > surprising elements. > E.g. Gutenberg incorporating the action of the wine-press into printing. > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > I did not realize that Gutenberg had used a wine-press for his printing > press! > But that is an example of "synthesis". Mike seems to be saying that > because the synthesis could not be a totally predefined process, that > proves that synthesis is not algorithmic. From Gutenberg's view point he > had knowledge of two mechanical systems so they were 'predefined' to him. > One machine was the wine press and the other was whatever form of printing > existed before he created his press. This is typical algorithmic > combination. It shows that by selecting kinds of things that were important > to him and by being aware of the qualities of a system that would be useful > to him, he was able to make a creative synthesis based on those properties > or features. > > Computer programmers do not need to "define" every possible thing that > might exist in the world to make synthesis feasible for an AGI program. > The program only needs to be able to detect different kinds of things. > This can be done by using different kinds of methods. Right now the > achievements in this area of AGI research are very limited but that does > not mean that no one will be able to ever find a way to develop some kind > of innovation to the field. Algorithmic creativity is the easy part. > > But Gutenberg's use of the wine press in his printing press is a perfect > example of algorithmic creativity. > > It is also a great example of how some of the principals of AGI might > work. Notice that Gutenberg was also very interested in using his own > innovations to improve his printing methods. > > > From Wikipedia: > > Johannes Gensfleisch zur Laden zum Gutenberg ([image: play] > /<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English> > j > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>oʊ<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> > ˌ > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>h<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> > ɑː > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>n<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> > ɨ > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>s<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> > ˈ > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>ɡ<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> > uː > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>t<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> > ən > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>b<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> > ɜr > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key>ɡ<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key> > / <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English> > *yoh-HAH-nəs*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key> > *GOO-tən-burɡ*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key>; > c. 1398 – February 3, 1468) was a German<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany> > blacksmith <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmith>, > goldsmith<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldsmith>, > printer <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_(publisher)>, and > publisher<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publisher>who introduced > printing <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing> to Europe. His invention > of mechanical movable type > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type>printing started the Printing > Revolution <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_Revolution> and is > widely regarded as the most important event of the modern > period<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_period> > .[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg#cite_note-Man_of_the_Millenium-0>It > played a key role in the development of the > Renaissance <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance>, > Reformation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation>, > the Age of > Enlightenment<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment>and the > Scientific > Revolution <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Revolution> and laid > the material basis for the modern knowledge-based > economy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge-based_economy>and the spread > of learning to the > masses<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratization_of_knowledge> > .[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg#cite_note-1> > > Gutenberg was the first European to use movable > type<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type>printing, in around 1439. > Among his many contributions to printing are: the > invention of a process for mass-producing movable type; the use of > oil-based ink <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ink>; and the use of a wooden > printing press similar to the agricultural screw > presses<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_press>of the period. His truly > epochal invention was the combination of these > elements into a practical system which allowed the mass production of > printed books and was economically viable for printers and readers alike. > Gutenberg's method for making type is traditionally considered to have > included a type metal <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_metal> alloy and > a hand mould <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_mould#Printing> for > casting type. > > > > > > > > Jim Bromer > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Arets: First of all, the burden remains on you to show us that there >> is, ahem ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of creativity that is *not* the result of >> recombination of the already existing elements. >> >> This is awesome ignorance. If we are talking about major cultural >> creativity in any sphere within society, EVERY SINGLE creative product is >> the result of incorporating new, surprising elements. >> >> >> E.g. Gutenberg incorporating the action of the wine-press into printing. >> E.g. Picasso incorporating the geometric faces of primitive art into >> modern figurative painting – Demoiselles d’Avignon >> E.g. the introduction of neural networks into computing >> E.g. plot twists in millions of thrillers >> >> Hence theories of bisociation, conceptual blending for creativity. >> >> Which universe are you living in? >> >> Major creativity always incorporates new, >> never-before-associated-in-this-sphere elements. >> That’s what makes creativity creative – new surprising elements. Jeez. >> That’s why we go “wow!” at creativity. >> >> And minor everyday creativity also incorporates new, never before >> associated elements – even if “wow-less”. >> >> Every patchwork in a series of patchworks incorporates new, >> non-formulaic shapes... as I have demonstrated here at length. >> >> Now you have to PRODUCE ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of a creative algorithm... >> we’re waiting. Not excuses and crazy logic. Scientific evidence – one >> example. >> >> The history of science is one of people believing one crazy paradigm >> after another that got smashed. The “universally applicable algorithm” is >> one of those crazy paradigms. >> >> P.S. Arets’ responses are in one way fascinating – he simply takes it >> for granted, religiously unquestioningly for granted that algorithms are >> creative. It is a religious, not a scientific belief. >> >> *From:* Arets Paeglis <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:10 PM >> *To:* AGI <[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [agi] Behold your saviour, Ben >> >> First of all, the burden remains on you to show us that there is, ahem >> ONE FUCKING EXAMPLE of creativity that is *not* the result of >> recombination of the already existing elements in ways that are both >> compressible (= understandable) by the agent and yet previously unknown to >> it. Second, I see no rational reason to assume that there even can be such >> 'exemption from existence of rules' in the first place. >> >> -- >> http://about.me/mindbound >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10561250-164650b2> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
