Enlightenment is not that hard to pin down so much as almost completely outside of most people's realm of experience. Non-attachment becomes a little bit tricky, too, as there is the non-attachment of enlightenment, and a kind of fake, effortful thing that some people mistake for it, though maybe it can be useful with the meditative techniques that the Buddhists and other folks use. it's not all that popular, though, and that should tell people something. I am happy to be able to point out its limitations, as someone who actually knows something about it. But I'm afraid this is pretty far afield for this list, even though it is an interesting and potentially relevant topic. andi
Can I help? On May 2, 2013, at 7:40 AM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> wrote: > > Every embodied mind needs a self-model, aka "ego".... But human minds tend > to get excessively attached to their egos.... AGI minds need not have these > flaws... > > "Enlightenment" is a hard concept to pin down, so I only use it poetically or > metaphorically.... This is why the meat of my blog post focused on > "attachment vs. non-attachment", which is an easier concept to grapple with > using the language of science... > > -- Ben G > > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Andrew G. Babian <[email protected]> wrote: >> You can be enlightened and still be a nasty person. And sometimes, lack of >> ego-identification is just pathological, and you can't even cope with >> reality. It's such a rare condition, too, that it's hardly worth spending >> much time on. Pursuing enlightenment, too, like riding an ox in search of >> the ox, is almost a laughable pursuit. An AGI with no ability to understand >> selves, as illusory as they may be, would simply be useless. So, no, I >> would not want an AGI that was enlightened from the start. For people, the >> idea might be a nice change, but it ain't good of itself. >> andi >> >> Can I help? >> >> On May 2, 2013, at 2:38 AM, Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> Interesting response, thanks... >>> >>> I think that humans have an evolved tendency to be overly egocentric, and >>> (esp. in modern Western culture) to model themselves as isolated, separate >>> beings much more than is really the case.... So compassion meditation is >>> in part a way of overcoming this particular human propensity.... OTOH, AGI >>> systems would not necessarily have that sort of propensity in the first >>> place... >>> >>> We definitely would, however, want our AGIs to have an initial bias to >>> model others and see the world from other beings' views.... This militates >>> toward a kind of non-attachment to one's own >>> self/self-model/individual-perspective... >>> >>> ben >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Chris Nolan <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> Ben, >>>> >>>> that's an interesting concept. From my reading of Buddhism is also seems >>>> like non-attachment in meditation is also often linked with metta >>>> practice, or compassion meditation to state it in a simplified way. Have >>>> you looked at any of the neuroscience papers on that practice? In the >>>> simple example you supply of "Bob" detaching from his girlfriend the >>>> practice would be not just "letting go of the suffering of the break-up" >>>> but also adding a compassion practice for ex-girlfriend, in this way the >>>> Buddhist practice would be developing non-attachment in conjunction with >>>> compassion for the individual and their choice. In this way an individual >>>> avoids just falling into the trap of avoiding suffering and so getting >>>> caught by it even more. Side note: as someone having been in a number of >>>> break-ups I've found it works better than just trying to detach, haha... >>>> >>>> I bring it up because I wonder if the concept could be informative for the >>>> goal of creating a Friendly AI? In this way OpenCog's system of balancing >>>> attachment and experience could also be linked with broader compassion. >>>> Possibly in the implication links, while disassociating happiness with >>>> "put_arm_around_girlfriend" >>>> and adding an implication that happiness for girlfriend includes >>>> separation from Bob. That possibly hints at way of formulating ethics for >>>> A.I. >>>> >>>> -Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> >>>> To: AGI <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 1:24 AM >>>> Subject: [agi] Toward enlightened AGIs >>>> >>>> For your general amusement, here is a blog post I rote on >>>> >>>> "The dynamics of attachment and non-attachment in human and AGI minds": >>>> >>>> http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.hk/2013/05/the-dynamics-of-attachment-and-non.html >>>> >>>> :) >>>> ben >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >>>> http://goertzel.org >>>> >>>> "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>> AGI >>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/20347893-f72b365c >>>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>> >>>> >>>> AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >>> http://goertzel.org >>> >>> "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche >>> AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >> >> AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > http://goertzel.org > > "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche > AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
