I think the difference comes from the way in which an AGI would interact with the world vs how a human does. If we had a robotic system that was complex enough to be analogous to a growing biological system then I would agree. But whether an AGI is created through a robotic or a virtual system then the interaction with the environment is far less complex. One way to overcome that is to instead create greater complexity through larger social interaction. That creates more dynamism that can then drive the evolution of self and group identity that came about for humans through the complexity of natural biological evolution. Maybe it wouldn't be absolutely necessary, but I wonder then if it might be quicker and more beneficial to evolve a large number of AGIs (say a massive size of millions) in the same way that massive online collaboration, or even the free market, can be very dynamic?
________________________________ From: Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> To: AGI <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, May 3, 2013 3:28 AM Subject: Re: [agi] Toward enlightened AGIs I mostly agree with you, but I suspect that a young AGI growing up in a community of humans could still develop a fully-functional self-model and ascend the Maslow hierarchy... I don't see why an AGI society would be required... -- Ben G On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Chris Nolan <[email protected]> wrote: >Our plan with OpenCog is to embody it in video game agents and mobile robotic >agents, so that it would be an "agent" from the start.... > > > >Maybe I should separate out what I mean as a difference between a simple agent >and one that is a complex, self-referential agent. A complex, self-referential >agent would be one that is operates within a complex environment, understands >itself as an actual entity within that environment, and seeks fulfillment of >the upper levels of the Maslow hierarchy of needs (belonging, self-esteem, >self-actualization). What I mean by a "simple agent" would be one that is able >to function in an environment in autonomous way but does not necessarily view >itself as as existing as an individual creature. It might have a high-level >reasoning capacity and even operate within a complex environment, but does it >go beyond the lower-level hierarchy of needs towards the upper "human-level" >needs, and possibly beyond? > > >I think that is how I would separate out between sub human-level AGI and full >human-level AGI and beyond. My intuition in that regard is it will require the >evolution from lower level to higher levels within a complex Multi-Agent >System; i.e. co-evolving an AGI society along with a higher levels of AGI. The >reason I have that intuition is that I think the complex nature of >"self-identity" for humans is intrinsically tied into our interactions with >society, even if at a subconscious level, and can't be separated out from our >growth in society from childhood to adulthood. The dynamics of that >interaction wouldn't be that much different for AGI. The complexity of that is >such that it couldn't be programmed but would instead have to be evolved and >grown. Maybe that would be virtual, maybe that would be the interaction of >many robots in human culture, I don't know. But I think it would require that >interaction to go from sub human-level to full and post human-level AGI. > > >Maybe I'm wrong though. As I said, just my intuition... > > > > > >________________________________ > From: Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> >To: AGI <[email protected]> >Sent: Friday, May 3, 2013 12:23 AM > >Subject: Re: [agi] Toward enlightened AGIs > > > > >An AGI society would be awesome... however, I doubt it's critical... > > >Our plan with OpenCog is to embody it in video game agents and mobile robotic >agents, so that it would be an "agent" from the start.... But various OpenCog >components are now being used as tools... > > >-- Ben G > > >On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Chris Nolan <[email protected]> wrote: > >Ben, >> >> >>>I think that humans have an evolved tendency to be overly egocentric, and >>>(esp. in modern Western culture) to model themselves as isolated, separate >>>beings much >more than is really the case.... So compassion meditation is >>>in part a way of overcoming this particular human propensity.... OTOH, AGI >>>systems would not >necessarily have that sort of propensity in the first >>>place... >> >> >> >>I don't necessarily disagree. A slight difference I would state is that >>humans have evolved the natural ability to feel compassion, however it's >>often linked to group identity; i.e. we naturally feel compassion for family >>and those we consider members of our "tribe" but not necessarily for those >>outside. Compassion meditation is then a way to change that neural wiring to >>create that natural compassion for those whom we might normally consider >>"outside our tribe," or even for the "enemies of our tribe." AGI systems >>might not have the bias to tribal identity and creating the "other," but I >>wonder if the natural bias might be towards creating no group identity at all >>and so the unstated bias would then be for all to be "other"? >> >> >>>We definitely would, however, want our AGIs to have an initial bias to model >>>others and see the world from other beings' views.... This militates toward >>>a kind of >non-attachment to one's own >>>self/self-model/individual-perspective... >> >> >>Yeah, I think that's a very good point. There's a very big difference between >>non-attachment to self because of a viewpoint of being connected with a >>larger whole and non-attachment to, or really detachment from, self because >>of a lack of connection to any group or identity. How do you see this being >>implemented within an AGI system? Would it be necessary to have it explicitly >>designed within OpenCog's framework or would it be a part of the >>implicationLinks that are learned through experience? >> >> >>This also brings up another question which is what role will the creation of >>multi-agent systems play in the evolution of AGI? It seems likely to me that >>either OpenCog or some other AGI system will eventually create a general AI >>reasoning capacity, an AGI tool, that is human-level. But, will that be the >>same as the creation of an AGI agent, or will it be necessary to then evolve >>the AGI from a tool-level to an agent-level within some larger multi-agent >>system (likely a combination of humans and other AGIs). My intuition would be >>yes because I think that is how you would evolve the AGI's understanding of >>itself within the larger group context, creating the experience and implied >>understanding of behavior within the larger group (which then necessitates a >>model of self). The next question begged is then what size magnitude of >>multi-agent system? Would only a few AGI agents interacting with humans be >>enough, or would it be more beneficial to have a very large number of AGI agents (an AGI society)? Or, stated another way, is it necessary to co-evolve AGI society with the AGI agent? >> >> >>It is a part of how human intelligence has evolved... >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> >>To: AGI <[email protected]> >>Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2013 3:38 AM >>Subject: Re: [agi] Toward enlightened AGIs >> >> >> >> >>Interesting response, thanks... >> >> >>I think that humans have an evolved tendency to be overly egocentric, and >>(esp. in modern Western culture) to model themselves as isolated, separate >>beings much more than is really the case.... So compassion meditation is in >>part a way of overcoming this particular human propensity.... OTOH, AGI >>systems would not necessarily have that sort of propensity in the first >>place... >> >> >>We definitely would, however, want our AGIs to have an initial bias to model >>others and see the world from other beings' views.... This militates toward >>a kind of non-attachment to one's own >>self/self-model/individual-perspective... >> >> >>ben >> >> >> >> >> >>On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Chris Nolan <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>Ben, >>> >>> >>>that's an interesting concept. From my reading of Buddhism is also seems >>>like non-attachment in meditation is also often linked with metta practice, >>>or compassion meditation to state it in a simplified way. Have you looked at >>>any of the neuroscience papers on that practice? In the simple example you >>>supply of "Bob" detaching from his girlfriend the practice would be not just >>>"letting go of the suffering of the break-up" but also adding a compassion >>>practice for ex-girlfriend, in this way the Buddhist practice would be >>>developing non-attachment in conjunction with compassion for the individual >>>and their choice. In this way an individual avoids just falling into the >>>trap of avoiding suffering and so getting caught by it even more. Side note: >>>as someone having been in a number of break-ups I've found it works better >>>than just trying to detach, haha... >>> >>> >>>I bring it up because I wonder if the concept could be informative for the >>>goal of creating a Friendly AI? In this way OpenCog's system of balancing >>>attachment and experience could also be linked with broader compassion. >>>Possibly in the implication links, while disassociating happiness with >>>"put_arm_around_girlfriend" >>>and adding an implication that happiness for girlfriend includes separation >>>from Bob. That possibly hints at way of formulating ethics for A.I. >>> >>> >>>-Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: Ben Goertzel <[email protected]> >>>To: AGI <[email protected]> >>>Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2013 1:24 AM >>>Subject: [agi] Toward enlightened AGIs >>> >>> >>>For your general amusement, here is a blog post I rote on >>> >>>"The dynamics of attachment and non-attachment in human and AGI minds": >>> >>>http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.hk/2013/05/the-dynamics-of-attachment-and-non.html >>> >>>:) >>>ben >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Ben Goertzel, PhD >>>http://goertzel.org >>> >>>"My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche >>> >>> >>>------------------------------------------- >>>AGI >>>Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/20347893-f72b365c >>>Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >>> >>> >>>AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >> >> >> >>-- >>Ben Goertzel, PhD >>http://goertzel.org >> >>"My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche >> >>AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >> >> >>AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription > > > >-- >Ben Goertzel, PhD >http://goertzel.org > >"My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche > >AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription > > >AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription -- Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org "My humanity is a constant self-overcoming" -- Friedrich Nietzsche AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
