> Experiments are fine, but having a repeatable and verifiable > subjective experience only shows that your subjective experience is > consistent. It does not show that your subjective experience is > connected in any way to objective externalities. To do so, it is not > enough to show that each person experiences the same sort of thing > under the same conditions. You must also show that you can affect each > other exclusively through that medium. If you could come up with a > repeatable experiment that showed, for example, that people could > communicate concrete information with each other through > "consciousness space" without using any sort of side channel in > physical reality, then you would have evidence that this > "consciousness space" was part of our shared objective reality and not > something exclusively subjective. > > But your current evidence isn't enough to convince, because there are > other explanations that don't require us to make significant changes > to our own existing world models. All of the evidence you have put > forth so far can be dismissed as unusual brain activity. Show me the > money. Put together an experiment that connects two or more people's > "consciousness spaces" in a way that can't be explained away as merely > unusual brain activity. Then you will gain some credibility to your > assertions.
I think Aaron basically covered what I wanted to say. A few other points: > That's why I recommend Campbell's book. His model might not be correct > in every detail but it helps us to understand the bigger reality. The > more people there are exploring consciousness in a scientific way the > better our understanding will become. On you advice I actually bought and read My Big TOE Book 1, I couldn't make heads or tails of it. If altered states can actually produce psi effects I'm sure we'll stumble upon. Maybe then I can write a book that's more accessible. > I don't think that's the case. IMHO it just produces DMT and DMT is a > strong and most amazing entheogen and capable of shutting down input > from the local (implementation based) realm. Yes, DMT trips are insane. And yes, they have strangely consistent themes, and interaction with autonomous entities is incredibly profound. However from my conversations with other members of the community nobody has actually learned anything they didn't already know from a DMT entity. They are more likely just reflections of our subconscious. Tulpas appear autonomous as well, that doesn't mean they are paranormal. If you want my advice, the most direct way to start convincing people on this list of your point of view is as follows: Create an account on PsychonautWiki and on your user page describe in detail what your meditation techniques are and the subjective experiences you have on them. I can think of at least two other people besides myself who would likely be willing to invest the energy required to practice and hone your techniques. (I'm already familiar with insight meditation and lucid dreaming, and you don't have to worry about wasting my time because my time is worthless.) If there is even a single shred of evidence for psi then I'm sure we'll stumble across it, and investigate it further. Eventually if more and more people can consistently create the same experience, an article will be written on the main wiki. Why not take Aaron's advice? You show me how to create a scientifically rigorous experiment that demonstrates non-local consciousness (like demonstrating ESP in these altered states between two members of our community) and I will give it a try. If we can repeatedly demonstrate results, (not even every time, but enough times to clearly be statistically significant) I will defend the results and our methodology to the rest of the people here. As you said Ben and some others here believe in psi, and I'm pretty sure the subjective experience of siddhis does exist, so why not give it a try? You have everything to gain and nothing to lose. I'm incredibly open-minded, and I strive to hear points of view that run directly counter my own. However to be honest I'm not sure what you're doing on this mailing list. No, this is not me telling you to leave, I'm simply observing that your arguments are not strong enough to convince people here of your point of view. And if your point of view is correct then you owe it to the scientific community to construct arguments that can convince skeptical and open-minded individuals like myself. Don't just make the same assertions again and again, show me the evidence, or I'm going to stop listening to you. Aleks TK ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
