Excellent, if you know Elon you should ask him. On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 1:19 AM, Jan Matusiewicz <[email protected]> wrote:
> I happen not to know Elon Musk in person ;-) You do? > I see that there are much more notable "collaborators": Larry Page, Mark > Zuckerberg, Bill Gates. Do you claim that they really collaborate on your > project? > > Think before you answer. Your creditibility is at stake. Nothing is lost > in the Internet, if someone is going to find out "Is Dorian Aur from > Stanford University a reliable scientist" - he or she might find this > discussion. > > On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Dorian Aur <[email protected]> wrote: > >> You should ask Elon, already the number has doubled. >> >> On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Jan Matusiewicz < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Is this project really supported by Elon Musk? It has only 45 reads and >>> 3 followers so I doubt that. >>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 19:20 Dorian Aur, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> That's the reliable path to build AGI and conscious machines >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/project/Build-Conscious-Machines >>>> We will be greatly appreciate your constructive contribution >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> An example of a substantive reason to support some AI theories is that >>>> many programs have the ability to make some 'prediction' based on the >>>> reaction to >>>> features of input. Working from there, the ability to make predictions >>>> means that knowledge or capabilities which had been integrated could >>>> be used meaningfully. My counter argument is that 'prediction' and >>>> 'predictive utility' as used in contemporary AI is just as noisy and >>>> lossy as any other would be AGI facility. So although this kind of >>>> ability may be necessary for AGI it (along with feedback integration >>>> differentiation exclusion and a host of other contemporary AI >>>> methods), it is far from sufficient. And I acknowledge that reasonable >>>> expectation that progress in AGI is not going to be instantaneous or >>>> smooth. >>>> Jim Bromer >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> > I will look at some of the links when I get some time, but you clearly >>>> > did not understand my criticism of the theory. Even if I did >>>> > misunderstand something from your presentation, so what? It does not >>>> > necessarily mean the criticism is irrelevant. An example of a >>>> > substantive reason to support some AI theories is that many programs >>>> > have the ability to make some 'prediction' based on the reaction to >>>> > features of input. If you had used that argument I would have pointed >>>> > out that the ability of AI to make predictions (or expectations) is >>>> > wiped out by extraneous features (noise) and by the complexity of any >>>> > AI program to find which features would be relevant in different >>>> > situations (lossy 'insights'). I am not saying this is relevant to >>>> > what you are saying I am just trying to give you an example of how >>>> > reasoning can be used to support a theory and how some reasoning which >>>> > is substantial in theory may not be that strong in practice. >>>> > Jim Bromer >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 8:03 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>> >> Hash: SHA256 >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On 2017-02-17 10:03 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >>>> >>> Sorry. OK, you said the meditating was high phi. But your response >>>> >>> ignored (and was a distraction from) the point that I made that >>>> >>> it would be possible to create computer programs that were capable >>>> >>> of integration and differentiation (and therefore were capable of >>>> >>> learned exclusion) which were not capable of anything resembling >>>> >>> true intelligence. >>>> >> >>>> >> Do you have examples? >>>> >> >>>> >>> And I explicitly included the possibility that improvements in AGI >>>> >>> might be slow and uneven. >>>> >> >>>> >> You just said there wasn't even a glimmer. >>>> >> >>>> >>> I do not have the time to waste 'doing research' into conjectures >>>> >>> which are not demonstrable and which cannot be buttressed by >>>> >>> reasoning. >>>> >> >>>> >> That is very sad. If you don't do research, I don't understand how >>>> you >>>> >> intend to contribute anything of value. >>>> >> >>>> >> Some studies that used/demonstrated integrated information theory in >>>> >> humans: >>>> >> >>>> >> Improved Measures of Integrated Information >>>> >> <http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/jo >>>> urnal.pcbi.1 >>>> >> 005123> >>>> >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2930263/ >>>> >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2823915/ >>>> >> http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/5/198/198ra105 >>>> >> Signature of consciousness in the dynamics of resting-state brain >>>> activi >>>> >> ty >>>> >> http://www.pnas.org/content/112/3/887.short >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> A simplified explanation of various predictions and explaining powers >>>> >> of IIT (cites numerous demonstrating studies): >>>> >> <http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Integrated_information_ >>>> theory#Predi >>>> >> ctions_and_explanations> >>>> >> >>>> >> Some Machine Intelligence specific studies: >>>> >> >>>> >> An affective computational model for machine consciousness >>>> >> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.00349.pdf >>>> >> High Integrated Information in Complex Networks Near Criticality >>>> >> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-44778-0_22 >>>> >> Group Minds and the Case of Wikipedia >>>> >> https://arxiv.org/abs/1407.2210 >>>> >> Integrated Information Theory and Artificial Consciousness >>>> >> <https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=&id=YIIJDgAAQBAJ&oi= >>>> fnd&pg=PA1&d >>>> >> q=artificial&ots=nYUVMmJnSw&sig=WSi1ECoHAhYrwgrNdUHu3hX4kWU# >>>> v=onepage&q= >>>> >> artificial&f=false> >>>> >> The Information-theoretic and Algorithmic Approach to Human, Animal >>>> >> and Artificial Cognition >>>> >> https://arxiv.org/abs/1501.04242 >>>> >> >>>> >>> You have not even begun to respond to the crucial criticisms. >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> I wasn't aware of any criticisms, other than misunderstandings on >>>> your >>>> >> behalf. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> Jim Bromer >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks, >>>> >> motivated me to post a bunch of links to studes. >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Logan Streondj <[email protected] >>>> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> no i didn't. i said several times in different ways: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is >>>> >>> determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by >>>> >>> activity. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> we should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers >>>> >>>> did not equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen >>>> >>>> that? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> we have, your just turning a blind eye to it. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On February 17, 2017 6:04:40 PM EST, Jim Bromer >>>> >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Here is my point of view. GOFAI should have worked, in the sense >>>> >>> that it should have kept improving over the years. That >>>> >>> improvement might have been slow and uneven but it should have >>>> >>> worked. What we see now is that most of the creative processes seem >>>> >>> to occur within neural nets, especially in hybrids that use both >>>> >>> neural nets and systems that have been designed for more discrete >>>> >>> (or more discrete-like) kinds of reasoning. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> If history had unfolded in the way I think it should have, then we >>>> >>> should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers did >>>> >>> not equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen that? >>>> >>> To say that a theory which cannot be demonstrated is able to >>>> >>> actually express consciousness, even glimmers of consciousness, >>>> >>> needs a lot of supporting reasoning. It might turn out to be a >>>> >>> good theory but if it can't pull its own weight then it is just >>>> >>> dreaming. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> You have to explain why this conjecture might be useful to us. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. But when a >>>> >>> person is meditating he is able to demonstrate that he is capable >>>> >>> of strong reasoning. A computer program seems to integrate and >>>> >>> differentiate data based on abstract principles. A learning >>>> >>> program could then turn new learning into abstract principles which >>>> >>> could be used to integrate and differentiate new data. But a >>>> >>> program that did that would not have to be thinking or learning in >>>> >>> a useful way. Jim Bromer >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Logan Streondj >>>> >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 2017-02-14 04:10 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Well again you are talking about interesting concepts like passive >>>> >>> consciousness (or low phi - that's a great expression). >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is >>>> >>> determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by >>>> >>> activity. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> But does that actually make sense? Wouldn't passive consciousness >>>> >>> be zombie like? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> It would be more like alpha meditation, passive awareness. Ready to >>>> >>> spring into action. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> You are suggesting that there may be something in between but >>>> >>> which has very limited effects. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I'm not sure what you are referring to. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> That is cool, but not really demonstrable with current AI concepts >>>> >>> is it? How do you show that there is dormant consciousness in an >>>> >>> AI application without awaking it? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> well if a program has high phi can be determined by it's structure >>>> >>> and connections. So if you have access to that information, can be >>>> >>> done in an offline setting. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> It's dormancy status doesn't change it's phi level. For example it >>>> >>> could be waiting for an interrupt or a packet to process. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Or if it is a process loaded into RAM that is sharing CPU >>>> >>> resources, but is not currently scheduled -- from it's perspective >>>> >>> nothing is happening, unless it is being processed by the CPU. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Jim Bromer >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Logan Streondj >>>> >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 2017-02-13 05:43 PM, Mike Archbold wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I agree with Jim Bromer. Partly I guess it depends how Tononi >>>> >>> defines consciousness. I've studied it very generally, but not in >>>> >>> detail. Intuitively, he seems to have identified an essential >>>> >>> component but by no means everything.... Obviously our >>>> >>> consciousness is saturated in feedback, but just having a feedback >>>> >>> property does not make a computer conscious. What is a more >>>> >>> complete definition under IIT? It can't be just feedback... what I >>>> >>> have seen of IIT looks interesting. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> "it has been pointed out that the brain (and many other systems) is >>>> >>> full of reentrant circuits, many of which do not seem to contribute >>>> >>> to consciousness [51]. IIT offers some specific insights with >>>> >>> respect to these issues. First, the need for reciprocal >>>> >>> interactions within a complex is not merely an empirical >>>> >>> observation, but it has theoretical validity because it is derived >>>> >>> directly from the phenomenological axiom of (strong) integration. >>>> >>> Second, (strong) integration is by no means the only requirement >>>> >>> for consciousness, but must be complemented by information and >>>> >>> exclusion. Third, for IIT it is the potential for interactions >>>> >>> among the parts of a complex that matters and not the actual >>>> >>> occurrence of ‘‘feed-back’’ or ‘‘reentrant’’ signaling, as is >>>> >>> usually assumed. As was discussed above, a complex can be >>>> >>> conscious, at least in principle, even though none of its neurons >>>> >>> may be firing, no feed-back or reentrant loop" IIT3.0 >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Basically from my limited understanding of IIT3.0 >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Consciousness requires three things Information, Integration and >>>> >>> Exclusion. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Feedback satisfies integration, as the components have to be >>>> >>> interconnected. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Information implies that there are past memories which can affect >>>> >>> present actions, or that memories could be acquired to affect >>>> >>> future actions. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> And Exclusion means that the consciousness has defined borders. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> It would seem that it may be a bit tricky with the program >>>> >>> switching that happens in a modern CPU. Though I'm fairly certain >>>> >>> that with FPGA's it would apply quite smoothly. For instance after >>>> >>> some FPGA circuits have been set up, even if they are not active, >>>> >>> they could still be passively conscious, ready for input. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> It may be similar if you consider things loaded in RAM or cache as >>>> >>> passively conscious and actively conscious when processing in CPU. >>>> >>> Similarly a kernel loaded in GPU would be conscious, though I >>>> >>> think there would be some question as to the quality of >>>> >>> consciousness, whether it might be highly modular, and thus of a >>>> >>> low phi. IF however all the kernels are working together, via local >>>> >>> or glboal memory, they could be considered strongly integrated, and >>>> >>> would be a singular consciousness. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 2/13/17, Steve Richfield <[email protected] >>>> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Your Central Metabolic Control System (CMCS) is clearly both >>>> >>> intelligent and independent. It appears to have abilities >>>> >>> approximating a PhD Control Systems Engineer, and often works at >>>> >>> cross purposes to your conscious intentions to keep you alive and >>>> >>> healthy. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> CMCS malfunctions often look a LOT like demonic possession. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Steve >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Feb 11, 2017 12:11 PM, "Dr Miles Dyson" >>>> >>> <[email protected] >>>> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> When I fall asleep and loose consciousness, the neurons in my >>>> >>> brain do not rearrange themselves such that no feedback loops >>>> >>> exist. And there are many feedback loops that exist in the brain, >>>> >>> but I don't have many consciousnesses, I have but one. For both of >>>> >>> those reasons consciousness and neural net feedback loops are not >>>> >>> one and the same thing. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected] >>>> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I don't concur, but it is an interesting placement of the minimum >>>> >>> for (machine) 'consciousness'. I did not realize that 'stateless' >>>> >>> 'pure functions' could be called 'feed forward'. If global effects >>>> >>> were sufficient to induce 'consciousness' then any program with >>>> >>> global effects could be called conscious. Even assuming that you >>>> >>> were being more specific than that I still don't think structures >>>> >>> that can carry states between calls (in the ways that you were >>>> >>> thinking) would be sufficient for conscious behaviors to emerge.. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Jim Bromer >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected] >>>> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I've been promoting Integrated Information Theory for a while but >>>> >>> I finally sat down and read the whole thing yesterday. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Explicitly it mentions that feed forward neuronets are 'zombies' >>>> >>> or unconscious while recurrent neuronets are conscious due to the >>>> >>> feedback loops. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So now I'm wondering which classical programming structures are >>>> >>> 'zombies' and which are conscious. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> It would seem by analogy that stateless or pure functions are >>>> >>> zombies since they simply feed forward. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Wheras structures that carry state between calls such as objects >>>> >>> and actors are conscious. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Do you concur? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and OpenKeychain. my >>>> >>> fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 >>>> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now>> >>>> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b >>>> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> 5> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; 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