> You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. no i didn't. i said several times in different ways:
Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by activity. > we should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers did not equal > strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen that? we have, your just turning a blind eye to it. On February 17, 2017 6:04:40 PM EST, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: >Here is my point of view. GOFAI should have worked, in the sense that >it should have kept improving over the years. That improvement might >have been slow and uneven but it should have worked. What we see now >is that most of the creative processes seem to occur within neural >nets, especially in hybrids that use both neural nets and systems that >have been designed for more discrete (or more discrete-like) kinds of >reasoning. > >If history had unfolded in the way I think it should have, then we >should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers did not >equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen that? To say >that a theory which cannot be demonstrated is able to actually express >consciousness, even glimmers of consciousness, needs a lot of >supporting reasoning. It might turn out to be a good theory but if it >can't pull its own weight then it is just dreaming. > >You have to explain why this conjecture might be useful to us. > >You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. But when a person >is meditating he is able to demonstrate that he is capable of strong >reasoning. A computer program seems to integrate and differentiate >data based on abstract principles. A learning program could then turn >new learning into abstract principles which could be used to integrate >and differentiate new data. But a program that did that would not have >to be thinking or learning in a useful way. >Jim Bromer > > >On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> >wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA256 >> >> >> >> On 2017-02-14 04:10 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >>> Well again you are talking about interesting concepts like passive >>> consciousness (or low phi - that's a great expression). >> >> Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is >> determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by >activity. >> >>> But does that actually make sense? Wouldn't passive consciousness >>> be zombie like? >> >> It would be more like alpha meditation, passive awareness. Ready to >> spring into action. >> >>> You are suggesting that there may be something in between but >>> which has very limited effects. >> >> I'm not sure what you are referring to. >> >>> That is cool, but not really demonstrable with current AI concepts >>> is it? How do you show that there is dormant consciousness in an AI >>> application without awaking it? >> >> well if a program has high phi can be determined by it's structure >and >> connections. So if you have access to that information, can be done >> in an offline setting. >> >> It's dormancy status doesn't change it's phi level. For example it >> could be waiting for an interrupt or a packet to process. >> >> Or if it is a process loaded into RAM that is sharing CPU resources, >> but is not currently scheduled -- from it's perspective nothing is >> happening, unless it is being processed by the CPU. >> >> >> >>> Jim Bromer >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Logan Streondj >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 2017-02-13 05:43 PM, Mike Archbold wrote: >>>>>> I agree with Jim Bromer. Partly I guess it depends how >>>>>> Tononi defines consciousness. I've studied it very >>>>>> generally, but not in detail. Intuitively, he seems to have >>>>>> identified an essential component but by no means >>>>>> everything.... Obviously our consciousness is saturated in >>>>>> feedback, but just having a feedback property does not make a >>>>>> computer conscious. What is a more complete definition under >>>>>> IIT? It can't be just feedback... what I have seen of IIT >>>>>> looks interesting. >>>>>> >>> >>> >>> "it has been pointed out that the brain (and many other systems) is >>> full of reentrant circuits, many of which do not seem to contribute >>> to consciousness [51]. IIT offers some specific insights with >>> respect to these issues. First, the need for reciprocal >>> interactions within a complex is not merely an empirical >>> observation, but it has theoretical validity because it is derived >>> directly from the phenomenological axiom of (strong) integration. >>> Second, (strong) integration is by no means the only requirement >>> for consciousness, but must be complemented by information and >>> exclusion. Third, for IIT it is the potential for interactions >>> among the parts of a complex that matters and not the actual >>> occurrence of ‘‘feed-back’’ or ‘‘reentrant’’ signaling, as is >>> usually assumed. As was discussed above, a complex can be >>> conscious, at least in principle, even though none of its neurons >>> may be firing, no feed-back or reentrant loop" IIT3.0 >>> >>> >>> Basically from my limited understanding of IIT3.0 >>> >>> Consciousness requires three things Information, Integration and >>> Exclusion. >>> >>> Feedback satisfies integration, as the components have to be >>> interconnected. >>> >>> Information implies that there are past memories which can affect >>> present actions, or that memories could be acquired to affect >>> future actions. >>> >>> And Exclusion means that the consciousness has defined borders. >>> >>> >>> It would seem that it may be a bit tricky with the program >>> switching that happens in a modern CPU. Though I'm fairly certain >>> that with FPGA's it would apply quite smoothly. For instance after >>> some FPGA circuits have been set up, even if they are not active, >>> they could still be passively conscious, ready for input. >>> >>> It may be similar if you consider things loaded in RAM or cache as >>> passively conscious and actively conscious when processing in CPU. >>> Similarly a kernel loaded in GPU would be conscious, though I >>> think there would be some question as to the quality of >>> consciousness, whether it might be highly modular, and thus of a >>> low phi. IF however all the kernels are working together, via local >>> or glboal memory, they could be considered strongly integrated, and >>> would be a singular consciousness. >>> >>>>>> On 2/13/17, Steve Richfield <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Your Central Metabolic Control System (CMCS) is clearly >>>>>>> both intelligent and independent. It appears to have >>>>>>> abilities approximating a PhD Control Systems Engineer, and >>>>>>> often works at cross purposes to your conscious intentions >>>>>>> to keep you alive and healthy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CMCS malfunctions often look a LOT like demonic >>>>>>> possession. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2017 12:11 PM, "Dr Miles Dyson" >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I fall asleep and loose consciousness, the neurons in >>>>>>> my brain do not rearrange themselves such that no feedback >>>>>>> loops exist. And there are many feedback loops that exist >>>>>>> in the brain, but I don't have many consciousnesses, I have >>>>>>> but one. For both of those reasons consciousness and neural >>>>>>> net feedback loops are not one and the same thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Jim Bromer >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't concur, but it is an interesting placement of >>>>>>>> the minimum for (machine) 'consciousness'. I did not >>>>>>>> realize that 'stateless' 'pure functions' could be called >>>>>>>> 'feed forward'. If global effects were sufficient to >>>>>>>> induce 'consciousness' then any program with global >>>>>>>> effects could be called conscious. Even assuming that you >>>>>>>> were being more specific than that I still don't think >>>>>>>> structures that can carry states between calls (in the >>>>>>>> ways that you were thinking) would be sufficient for >>>>>>>> conscious behaviors to emerge.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jim Bromer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Logan Streondj >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've been promoting Integrated Information Theory for >>>>>>>>> a while but I finally sat down and read the whole >>>>>>>>> thing yesterday. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Explicitly it mentions that feed forward neuronets are >>>>>>>>> 'zombies' or unconscious while recurrent neuronets are >>>>>>>>> conscious due to the feedback loops. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So now I'm wondering which classical programming >>>>>>>>> structures are 'zombies' and which are conscious. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It would seem by analogy that stateless or pure >>>>>>>>> functions are zombies since they simply feed forward. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wheras structures that carry state between calls such >>>>>>>>> as objects and actors are conscious. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do you concur? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and >>>>>>>>> OpenKeychain. my fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 >>>>>>>>> f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 *AGI* | Archives >>>>>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>>>>> ><https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b >> 5> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your >>>>>>>>> Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *AGI* | Archives >>>>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>>>> ><https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/26973278-698fd9ee >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>>>>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *AGI* | Archives >>>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>>> ><https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>>>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d >>>>>> >>>>>> >> Modify Your Subscription: >>>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>> eb0005 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5 >>>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d >>> Modify Your Subscription: >>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> eb0005 >>> >>> >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>> >> >> - -- >> Logan Streondj, >> A dream of Gaia's future. >> twitter: https://twitter.com/streondj >> >> You can use encrypted email with me, >> how to: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ >> key fingerprint: >> BD7E 6E2A E625 6D47 F7ED 30EC 86D8 FC7C FAD7 2729 >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v2 >> >> iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJYpyYXAAoJEIbY/Hz61ycpybQP/0TIz0A3GdVUeaB8JGkE71Dt >> ssClw3hziJl8ZwXejoaxH+9rZN1NnivTyENv02dTPKqiTuLr17WYkVT7d+ilgcJl >> sliPWEhGLWzOMptoJ9CH1RI7AxR1/zeqVLHHLgfu799GfUbDUTmVRKjFRjjIbnBy >> RyK3T6tZVyt6zomokRcPcY+g/sMIqsc0bYnO+F2W6wSlHqZAw5c60hWcMHFG9TbG >> HBIUrPBLS5Tk4FiD+u1vxujEwc/8uFX/WNkzjF4rnVhtETMSewksIF225Wh0im2l >> Dt9VYOestnsjxLyv/Q62zcxiBC1GvFjNHWsnrTtlyzKd01U9/4ly2Ey4JHaU1dFJ >> XbmgMGlEQcgR9JOq6NV/+prxU/Ihnxc4u75XcoDbwQkVz/Y0hw+6EoGpkpOV+V1T >> 4h5hvjyCNMTNvQee3AZEhoPjAiMDTjMJqvFi5xHzDtip90ZDfQtSlas12bQWr5hZ >> nd+OPCOJ2WiuFASZe3Xo4fj2a35yFGeQ1dTgThFDepaRRIW0ch1q342J3M4ecDKq >> SpsfawAL5fW7TsP4GhfU1+dWViQEt0d2VDOOYSIrU5gurtl8qRY1vd66JWXCu1or >> Rs6ko9cM2yll0tKYO5RyqDBLwnnSKrdXoVGpP6y0T8bSWVqJ6fqZO6AufMNJuEU3 >> TIUSluT0Tjh/imwXca16 >> =/ZC7 >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> AGI >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: >https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5 >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > >------------------------------------------- >AGI >Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >RSS Feed: >https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d >Modify Your Subscription: >https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and OpenKeychain. my fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
