I will look at some of the links when I get some time, but you clearly did not understand my criticism of the theory. Even if I did misunderstand something from your presentation, so what? It does not necessarily mean the criticism is irrelevant. An example of a substantive reason to support some AI theories is that many programs have the ability to make some 'prediction' based on the reaction to features of input. If you had used that argument I would have pointed out that the ability of AI to make predictions (or expectations) is wiped out by extraneous features (noise) and by the complexity of any AI program to find which features would be relevant in different situations (lossy 'insights'). I am not saying this is relevant to what you are saying I am just trying to give you an example of how reasoning can be used to support a theory and how some reasoning which is substantial in theory may not be that strong in practice. Jim Bromer
On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 8:03 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > > > On 2017-02-17 10:03 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >> Sorry. OK, you said the meditating was high phi. But your response >> ignored (and was a distraction from) the point that I made that >> it would be possible to create computer programs that were capable >> of integration and differentiation (and therefore were capable of >> learned exclusion) which were not capable of anything resembling >> true intelligence. > > Do you have examples? > >> And I explicitly included the possibility that improvements in AGI >> might be slow and uneven. > > You just said there wasn't even a glimmer. > >> I do not have the time to waste 'doing research' into conjectures >> which are not demonstrable and which cannot be buttressed by >> reasoning. > > That is very sad. If you don't do research, I don't understand how you > intend to contribute anything of value. > > Some studies that used/demonstrated integrated information theory in > humans: > > Improved Measures of Integrated Information > <http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1 > 005123> > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2930263/ > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2823915/ > http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/5/198/198ra105 > Signature of consciousness in the dynamics of resting-state brain activi > ty > http://www.pnas.org/content/112/3/887.short > > > A simplified explanation of various predictions and explaining powers > of IIT (cites numerous demonstrating studies): > <http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Integrated_information_theory#Predi > ctions_and_explanations> > > Some Machine Intelligence specific studies: > > An affective computational model for machine consciousness > https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.00349.pdf > High Integrated Information in Complex Networks Near Criticality > http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-44778-0_22 > Group Minds and the Case of Wikipedia > https://arxiv.org/abs/1407.2210 > Integrated Information Theory and Artificial Consciousness > <https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=&id=YIIJDgAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&d > q=artificial&ots=nYUVMmJnSw&sig=WSi1ECoHAhYrwgrNdUHu3hX4kWU#v=onepage&q= > artificial&f=false> > The Information-theoretic and Algorithmic Approach to Human, Animal > and Artificial Cognition > https://arxiv.org/abs/1501.04242 > >> You have not even begun to respond to the crucial criticisms. >> > > I wasn't aware of any criticisms, other than misunderstandings on your > behalf. > > >> Jim Bromer > > > Thanks, > motivated me to post a bunch of links to studes. > >> >> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Logan Streondj <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. >> >> no i didn't. i said several times in different ways: >> >> Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is >> determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by >> activity. >> >>> we should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers >>> did not equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen >>> that? >> >> we have, your just turning a blind eye to it. >> >> On February 17, 2017 6:04:40 PM EST, Jim Bromer >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Here is my point of view. GOFAI should have worked, in the sense >> that it should have kept improving over the years. That >> improvement might have been slow and uneven but it should have >> worked. What we see now is that most of the creative processes seem >> to occur within neural nets, especially in hybrids that use both >> neural nets and systems that have been designed for more discrete >> (or more discrete-like) kinds of reasoning. >> >> If history had unfolded in the way I think it should have, then we >> should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers did >> not equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen that? >> To say that a theory which cannot be demonstrated is able to >> actually express consciousness, even glimmers of consciousness, >> needs a lot of supporting reasoning. It might turn out to be a >> good theory but if it can't pull its own weight then it is just >> dreaming. >> >> You have to explain why this conjecture might be useful to us. >> >> You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. But when a >> person is meditating he is able to demonstrate that he is capable >> of strong reasoning. A computer program seems to integrate and >> differentiate data based on abstract principles. A learning >> program could then turn new learning into abstract principles which >> could be used to integrate and differentiate new data. But a >> program that did that would not have to be thinking or learning in >> a useful way. Jim Bromer >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Logan Streondj >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2017-02-14 04:10 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >> >> Well again you are talking about interesting concepts like passive >> consciousness (or low phi - that's a great expression). >> >> >> Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is >> determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by >> activity. >> >> But does that actually make sense? Wouldn't passive consciousness >> be zombie like? >> >> >> It would be more like alpha meditation, passive awareness. Ready to >> spring into action. >> >> You are suggesting that there may be something in between but >> which has very limited effects. >> >> >> I'm not sure what you are referring to. >> >> That is cool, but not really demonstrable with current AI concepts >> is it? How do you show that there is dormant consciousness in an >> AI application without awaking it? >> >> >> well if a program has high phi can be determined by it's structure >> and connections. So if you have access to that information, can be >> done in an offline setting. >> >> It's dormancy status doesn't change it's phi level. For example it >> could be waiting for an interrupt or a packet to process. >> >> Or if it is a process loaded into RAM that is sharing CPU >> resources, but is not currently scheduled -- from it's perspective >> nothing is happening, unless it is being processed by the CPU. >> >> >> >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Logan Streondj >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> On 2017-02-13 05:43 PM, Mike Archbold wrote: >> >> I agree with Jim Bromer. Partly I guess it depends how Tononi >> defines consciousness. I've studied it very generally, but not in >> detail. Intuitively, he seems to have identified an essential >> component but by no means everything.... Obviously our >> consciousness is saturated in feedback, but just having a feedback >> property does not make a computer conscious. What is a more >> complete definition under IIT? It can't be just feedback... what I >> have seen of IIT looks interesting. >> >> >> >> >> "it has been pointed out that the brain (and many other systems) is >> full of reentrant circuits, many of which do not seem to contribute >> to consciousness [51]. IIT offers some specific insights with >> respect to these issues. First, the need for reciprocal >> interactions within a complex is not merely an empirical >> observation, but it has theoretical validity because it is derived >> directly from the phenomenological axiom of (strong) integration. >> Second, (strong) integration is by no means the only requirement >> for consciousness, but must be complemented by information and >> exclusion. Third, for IIT it is the potential for interactions >> among the parts of a complex that matters and not the actual >> occurrence of ‘‘feed-back’’ or ‘‘reentrant’’ signaling, as is >> usually assumed. As was discussed above, a complex can be >> conscious, at least in principle, even though none of its neurons >> may be firing, no feed-back or reentrant loop" IIT3.0 >> >> >> Basically from my limited understanding of IIT3.0 >> >> Consciousness requires three things Information, Integration and >> Exclusion. >> >> Feedback satisfies integration, as the components have to be >> interconnected. >> >> Information implies that there are past memories which can affect >> present actions, or that memories could be acquired to affect >> future actions. >> >> And Exclusion means that the consciousness has defined borders. >> >> >> It would seem that it may be a bit tricky with the program >> switching that happens in a modern CPU. Though I'm fairly certain >> that with FPGA's it would apply quite smoothly. For instance after >> some FPGA circuits have been set up, even if they are not active, >> they could still be passively conscious, ready for input. >> >> It may be similar if you consider things loaded in RAM or cache as >> passively conscious and actively conscious when processing in CPU. >> Similarly a kernel loaded in GPU would be conscious, though I >> think there would be some question as to the quality of >> consciousness, whether it might be highly modular, and thus of a >> low phi. IF however all the kernels are working together, via local >> or glboal memory, they could be considered strongly integrated, and >> would be a singular consciousness. >> >> On 2/13/17, Steve Richfield <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Your Central Metabolic Control System (CMCS) is clearly both >> intelligent and independent. It appears to have abilities >> approximating a PhD Control Systems Engineer, and often works at >> cross purposes to your conscious intentions to keep you alive and >> healthy. >> >> CMCS malfunctions often look a LOT like demonic possession. >> >> Steve >> >> On Feb 11, 2017 12:11 PM, "Dr Miles Dyson" >> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> When I fall asleep and loose consciousness, the neurons in my >> brain do not rearrange themselves such that no feedback loops >> exist. And there are many feedback loops that exist in the brain, >> but I don't have many consciousnesses, I have but one. For both of >> those reasons consciousness and neural net feedback loops are not >> one and the same thing. >> >> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> I don't concur, but it is an interesting placement of the minimum >> for (machine) 'consciousness'. I did not realize that 'stateless' >> 'pure functions' could be called 'feed forward'. If global effects >> were sufficient to induce 'consciousness' then any program with >> global effects could be called conscious. Even assuming that you >> were being more specific than that I still don't think structures >> that can carry states between calls (in the ways that you were >> thinking) would be sufficient for conscious behaviors to emerge.. >> >> Jim Bromer >> >> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> I've been promoting Integrated Information Theory for a while but >> I finally sat down and read the whole thing yesterday. >> >> Explicitly it mentions that feed forward neuronets are 'zombies' >> or unconscious while recurrent neuronets are conscious due to the >> feedback loops. >> >> So now I'm wondering which classical programming structures are >> 'zombies' and which are conscious. >> >> It would seem by analogy that stateless or pure functions are >> zombies since they simply feed forward. >> >> Wheras structures that carry state between calls such as objects >> and actors are conscious. >> >> Do you concur? >> >> >> >> >> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and OpenKeychain. my >> fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now>> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b> >> >> 5> >> >> >> >> >> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; 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