You should ask Elon, already the number has doubled. On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Jan Matusiewicz <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is this project really supported by Elon Musk? It has only 45 reads and 3 > followers so I doubt that. > On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 19:20 Dorian Aur, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> That's the reliable path to build AGI and conscious machines https://www. >> researchgate.net/project/Build-Conscious-Machines >> We will be greatly appreciate your constructive contribution >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> An example of a substantive reason to support some AI theories is that >> many programs have the ability to make some 'prediction' based on the >> reaction to >> features of input. Working from there, the ability to make predictions >> means that knowledge or capabilities which had been integrated could >> be used meaningfully. My counter argument is that 'prediction' and >> 'predictive utility' as used in contemporary AI is just as noisy and >> lossy as any other would be AGI facility. So although this kind of >> ability may be necessary for AGI it (along with feedback integration >> differentiation exclusion and a host of other contemporary AI >> methods), it is far from sufficient. And I acknowledge that reasonable >> expectation that progress in AGI is not going to be instantaneous or >> smooth. >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: >> > I will look at some of the links when I get some time, but you clearly >> > did not understand my criticism of the theory. Even if I did >> > misunderstand something from your presentation, so what? It does not >> > necessarily mean the criticism is irrelevant. An example of a >> > substantive reason to support some AI theories is that many programs >> > have the ability to make some 'prediction' based on the reaction to >> > features of input. If you had used that argument I would have pointed >> > out that the ability of AI to make predictions (or expectations) is >> > wiped out by extraneous features (noise) and by the complexity of any >> > AI program to find which features would be relevant in different >> > situations (lossy 'insights'). I am not saying this is relevant to >> > what you are saying I am just trying to give you an example of how >> > reasoning can be used to support a theory and how some reasoning which >> > is substantial in theory may not be that strong in practice. >> > Jim Bromer >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 8:03 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> >> Hash: SHA256 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2017-02-17 10:03 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >> >>> Sorry. OK, you said the meditating was high phi. But your response >> >>> ignored (and was a distraction from) the point that I made that >> >>> it would be possible to create computer programs that were capable >> >>> of integration and differentiation (and therefore were capable of >> >>> learned exclusion) which were not capable of anything resembling >> >>> true intelligence. >> >> >> >> Do you have examples? >> >> >> >>> And I explicitly included the possibility that improvements in AGI >> >>> might be slow and uneven. >> >> >> >> You just said there wasn't even a glimmer. >> >> >> >>> I do not have the time to waste 'doing research' into conjectures >> >>> which are not demonstrable and which cannot be buttressed by >> >>> reasoning. >> >> >> >> That is very sad. If you don't do research, I don't understand how you >> >> intend to contribute anything of value. >> >> >> >> Some studies that used/demonstrated integrated information theory in >> >> humans: >> >> >> >> Improved Measures of Integrated Information >> >> <http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10. >> 1371/journal.pcbi.1 >> >> 005123> >> >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2930263/ >> >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2823915/ >> >> http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/5/198/198ra105 >> >> Signature of consciousness in the dynamics of resting-state brain >> activi >> >> ty >> >> http://www.pnas.org/content/112/3/887.short >> >> >> >> >> >> A simplified explanation of various predictions and explaining powers >> >> of IIT (cites numerous demonstrating studies): >> >> <http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Integrated_ >> information_theory#Predi >> >> ctions_and_explanations> >> >> >> >> Some Machine Intelligence specific studies: >> >> >> >> An affective computational model for machine consciousness >> >> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.00349.pdf >> >> High Integrated Information in Complex Networks Near Criticality >> >> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-44778-0_22 >> >> Group Minds and the Case of Wikipedia >> >> https://arxiv.org/abs/1407.2210 >> >> Integrated Information Theory and Artificial Consciousness >> >> <https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=&id= >> YIIJDgAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&d >> >> q=artificial&ots=nYUVMmJnSw&sig=WSi1ECoHAhYrwgrNdUHu3hX4kWU#v= >> onepage&q= >> >> artificial&f=false> >> >> The Information-theoretic and Algorithmic Approach to Human, Animal >> >> and Artificial Cognition >> >> https://arxiv.org/abs/1501.04242 >> >> >> >>> You have not even begun to respond to the crucial criticisms. >> >>> >> >> >> >> I wasn't aware of any criticisms, other than misunderstandings on your >> >> behalf. >> >> >> >> >> >>> Jim Bromer >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> motivated me to post a bunch of links to studes. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Logan Streondj <[email protected] >> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. >> >>> >> >>> no i didn't. i said several times in different ways: >> >>> >> >>> Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is >> >>> determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by >> >>> activity. >> >>> >> >>>> we should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers >> >>>> did not equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen >> >>>> that? >> >>> >> >>> we have, your just turning a blind eye to it. >> >>> >> >>> On February 17, 2017 6:04:40 PM EST, Jim Bromer >> >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Here is my point of view. GOFAI should have worked, in the sense >> >>> that it should have kept improving over the years. That >> >>> improvement might have been slow and uneven but it should have >> >>> worked. What we see now is that most of the creative processes seem >> >>> to occur within neural nets, especially in hybrids that use both >> >>> neural nets and systems that have been designed for more discrete >> >>> (or more discrete-like) kinds of reasoning. >> >>> >> >>> If history had unfolded in the way I think it should have, then we >> >>> should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers did >> >>> not equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen that? >> >>> To say that a theory which cannot be demonstrated is able to >> >>> actually express consciousness, even glimmers of consciousness, >> >>> needs a lot of supporting reasoning. It might turn out to be a >> >>> good theory but if it can't pull its own weight then it is just >> >>> dreaming. >> >>> >> >>> You have to explain why this conjecture might be useful to us. >> >>> >> >>> You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. But when a >> >>> person is meditating he is able to demonstrate that he is capable >> >>> of strong reasoning. A computer program seems to integrate and >> >>> differentiate data based on abstract principles. A learning >> >>> program could then turn new learning into abstract principles which >> >>> could be used to integrate and differentiate new data. But a >> >>> program that did that would not have to be thinking or learning in >> >>> a useful way. Jim Bromer >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Logan Streondj >> >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On 2017-02-14 04:10 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Well again you are talking about interesting concepts like passive >> >>> consciousness (or low phi - that's a great expression). >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is >> >>> determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by >> >>> activity. >> >>> >> >>> But does that actually make sense? Wouldn't passive consciousness >> >>> be zombie like? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> It would be more like alpha meditation, passive awareness. Ready to >> >>> spring into action. >> >>> >> >>> You are suggesting that there may be something in between but >> >>> which has very limited effects. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> I'm not sure what you are referring to. >> >>> >> >>> That is cool, but not really demonstrable with current AI concepts >> >>> is it? How do you show that there is dormant consciousness in an >> >>> AI application without awaking it? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> well if a program has high phi can be determined by it's structure >> >>> and connections. So if you have access to that information, can be >> >>> done in an offline setting. >> >>> >> >>> It's dormancy status doesn't change it's phi level. For example it >> >>> could be waiting for an interrupt or a packet to process. >> >>> >> >>> Or if it is a process loaded into RAM that is sharing CPU >> >>> resources, but is not currently scheduled -- from it's perspective >> >>> nothing is happening, unless it is being processed by the CPU. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Jim Bromer >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Logan Streondj >> >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On 2017-02-13 05:43 PM, Mike Archbold wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I agree with Jim Bromer. Partly I guess it depends how Tononi >> >>> defines consciousness. I've studied it very generally, but not in >> >>> detail. Intuitively, he seems to have identified an essential >> >>> component but by no means everything.... Obviously our >> >>> consciousness is saturated in feedback, but just having a feedback >> >>> property does not make a computer conscious. What is a more >> >>> complete definition under IIT? It can't be just feedback... what I >> >>> have seen of IIT looks interesting. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> "it has been pointed out that the brain (and many other systems) is >> >>> full of reentrant circuits, many of which do not seem to contribute >> >>> to consciousness [51]. IIT offers some specific insights with >> >>> respect to these issues. First, the need for reciprocal >> >>> interactions within a complex is not merely an empirical >> >>> observation, but it has theoretical validity because it is derived >> >>> directly from the phenomenological axiom of (strong) integration. >> >>> Second, (strong) integration is by no means the only requirement >> >>> for consciousness, but must be complemented by information and >> >>> exclusion. Third, for IIT it is the potential for interactions >> >>> among the parts of a complex that matters and not the actual >> >>> occurrence of ‘‘feed-back’’ or ‘‘reentrant’’ signaling, as is >> >>> usually assumed. As was discussed above, a complex can be >> >>> conscious, at least in principle, even though none of its neurons >> >>> may be firing, no feed-back or reentrant loop" IIT3.0 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Basically from my limited understanding of IIT3.0 >> >>> >> >>> Consciousness requires three things Information, Integration and >> >>> Exclusion. >> >>> >> >>> Feedback satisfies integration, as the components have to be >> >>> interconnected. >> >>> >> >>> Information implies that there are past memories which can affect >> >>> present actions, or that memories could be acquired to affect >> >>> future actions. >> >>> >> >>> And Exclusion means that the consciousness has defined borders. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> It would seem that it may be a bit tricky with the program >> >>> switching that happens in a modern CPU. Though I'm fairly certain >> >>> that with FPGA's it would apply quite smoothly. For instance after >> >>> some FPGA circuits have been set up, even if they are not active, >> >>> they could still be passively conscious, ready for input. >> >>> >> >>> It may be similar if you consider things loaded in RAM or cache as >> >>> passively conscious and actively conscious when processing in CPU. >> >>> Similarly a kernel loaded in GPU would be conscious, though I >> >>> think there would be some question as to the quality of >> >>> consciousness, whether it might be highly modular, and thus of a >> >>> low phi. IF however all the kernels are working together, via local >> >>> or glboal memory, they could be considered strongly integrated, and >> >>> would be a singular consciousness. >> >>> >> >>> On 2/13/17, Steve Richfield <[email protected] >> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Your Central Metabolic Control System (CMCS) is clearly both >> >>> intelligent and independent. It appears to have abilities >> >>> approximating a PhD Control Systems Engineer, and often works at >> >>> cross purposes to your conscious intentions to keep you alive and >> >>> healthy. >> >>> >> >>> CMCS malfunctions often look a LOT like demonic possession. >> >>> >> >>> Steve >> >>> >> >>> On Feb 11, 2017 12:11 PM, "Dr Miles Dyson" >> >>> <[email protected] >> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> When I fall asleep and loose consciousness, the neurons in my >> >>> brain do not rearrange themselves such that no feedback loops >> >>> exist. And there are many feedback loops that exist in the brain, >> >>> but I don't have many consciousnesses, I have but one. For both of >> >>> those reasons consciousness and neural net feedback loops are not >> >>> one and the same thing. >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected] >> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I don't concur, but it is an interesting placement of the minimum >> >>> for (machine) 'consciousness'. I did not realize that 'stateless' >> >>> 'pure functions' could be called 'feed forward'. If global effects >> >>> were sufficient to induce 'consciousness' then any program with >> >>> global effects could be called conscious. Even assuming that you >> >>> were being more specific than that I still don't think structures >> >>> that can carry states between calls (in the ways that you were >> >>> thinking) would be sufficient for conscious behaviors to emerge.. >> >>> >> >>> Jim Bromer >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected] >> >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I've been promoting Integrated Information Theory for a while but >> >>> I finally sat down and read the whole thing yesterday. >> >>> >> >>> Explicitly it mentions that feed forward neuronets are 'zombies' >> >>> or unconscious while recurrent neuronets are conscious due to the >> >>> feedback loops. >> >>> >> >>> So now I'm wondering which classical programming structures are >> >>> 'zombies' and which are conscious. >> >>> >> >>> It would seem by analogy that stateless or pure functions are >> >>> zombies since they simply feed forward. >> >>> >> >>> Wheras structures that carry state between calls such as objects >> >>> and actors are conscious. >> >>> >> >>> Do you concur? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and OpenKeychain. my >> >>> fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 >> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now>> >> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b >> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b> >> >>> >> >>> 5> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; 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