-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2017-02-17 10:03 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: > Sorry. OK, you said the meditating was high phi. But your response > ignored (and was a distraction from) the point that I made that > it would be possible to create computer programs that were capable > of integration and differentiation (and therefore were capable of > learned exclusion) which were not capable of anything resembling > true intelligence. Do you have examples? > And I explicitly included the possibility that improvements in AGI > might be slow and uneven. You just said there wasn't even a glimmer. > I do not have the time to waste 'doing research' into conjectures > which are not demonstrable and which cannot be buttressed by > reasoning. That is very sad. If you don't do research, I don't understand how you intend to contribute anything of value. Some studies that used/demonstrated integrated information theory in humans: Improved Measures of Integrated Information <http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1 005123> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2930263/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2823915/ http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/5/198/198ra105 Signature of consciousness in the dynamics of resting-state brain activi ty http://www.pnas.org/content/112/3/887.short A simplified explanation of various predictions and explaining powers of IIT (cites numerous demonstrating studies): <http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Integrated_information_theory#Predi ctions_and_explanations> Some Machine Intelligence specific studies: An affective computational model for machine consciousness https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.00349.pdf High Integrated Information in Complex Networks Near Criticality http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-44778-0_22 Group Minds and the Case of Wikipedia https://arxiv.org/abs/1407.2210 Integrated Information Theory and Artificial Consciousness <https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&lr=&id=YIIJDgAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&d q=artificial&ots=nYUVMmJnSw&sig=WSi1ECoHAhYrwgrNdUHu3hX4kWU#v=onepage&q= artificial&f=false> The Information-theoretic and Algorithmic Approach to Human, Animal and Artificial Cognition https://arxiv.org/abs/1501.04242 > You have not even begun to respond to the crucial criticisms. > I wasn't aware of any criticisms, other than misunderstandings on your behalf. > Jim Bromer Thanks, motivated me to post a bunch of links to studes. > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Logan Streondj <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. > > no i didn't. i said several times in different ways: > > Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is > determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by > activity. > >> we should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers >> did not equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen >> that? > > we have, your just turning a blind eye to it. > > On February 17, 2017 6:04:40 PM EST, Jim Bromer > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Here is my point of view. GOFAI should have worked, in the sense > that it should have kept improving over the years. That > improvement might have been slow and uneven but it should have > worked. What we see now is that most of the creative processes seem > to occur within neural nets, especially in hybrids that use both > neural nets and systems that have been designed for more discrete > (or more discrete-like) kinds of reasoning. > > If history had unfolded in the way I think it should have, then we > should have seen glimmers of true AGI even if those glimmers did > not equal strong AI. So the question is why haven't we seen that? > To say that a theory which cannot be demonstrated is able to > actually express consciousness, even glimmers of consciousness, > needs a lot of supporting reasoning. It might turn out to be a > good theory but if it can't pull its own weight then it is just > dreaming. > > You have to explain why this conjecture might be useful to us. > > You said that meditating might be a form of low phi. But when a > person is meditating he is able to demonstrate that he is capable > of strong reasoning. A computer program seems to integrate and > differentiate data based on abstract principles. A learning > program could then turn new learning into abstract principles which > could be used to integrate and differentiate new data. But a > program that did that would not have to be thinking or learning in > a useful way. Jim Bromer > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Logan Streondj > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > On 2017-02-14 04:10 PM, Jim Bromer wrote: > > Well again you are talking about interesting concepts like passive > consciousness (or low phi - that's a great expression). > > > Actually passive consciousness can be high phi, the phi level is > determined by integration, information and exclusion, not by > activity. > > But does that actually make sense? Wouldn't passive consciousness > be zombie like? > > > It would be more like alpha meditation, passive awareness. Ready to > spring into action. > > You are suggesting that there may be something in between but > which has very limited effects. > > > I'm not sure what you are referring to. > > That is cool, but not really demonstrable with current AI concepts > is it? How do you show that there is dormant consciousness in an > AI application without awaking it? > > > well if a program has high phi can be determined by it's structure > and connections. So if you have access to that information, can be > done in an offline setting. > > It's dormancy status doesn't change it's phi level. For example it > could be waiting for an interrupt or a packet to process. > > Or if it is a process loaded into RAM that is sharing CPU > resources, but is not currently scheduled -- from it's perspective > nothing is happening, unless it is being processed by the CPU. > > > > Jim Bromer > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Logan Streondj > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > On 2017-02-13 05:43 PM, Mike Archbold wrote: > > I agree with Jim Bromer. Partly I guess it depends how Tononi > defines consciousness. I've studied it very generally, but not in > detail. Intuitively, he seems to have identified an essential > component but by no means everything.... Obviously our > consciousness is saturated in feedback, but just having a feedback > property does not make a computer conscious. What is a more > complete definition under IIT? It can't be just feedback... what I > have seen of IIT looks interesting. > > > > > "it has been pointed out that the brain (and many other systems) is > full of reentrant circuits, many of which do not seem to contribute > to consciousness [51]. IIT offers some specific insights with > respect to these issues. First, the need for reciprocal > interactions within a complex is not merely an empirical > observation, but it has theoretical validity because it is derived > directly from the phenomenological axiom of (strong) integration. > Second, (strong) integration is by no means the only requirement > for consciousness, but must be complemented by information and > exclusion. Third, for IIT it is the potential for interactions > among the parts of a complex that matters and not the actual > occurrence of ‘‘feed-back’’ or ‘‘reentrant’’ signaling, as is > usually assumed. As was discussed above, a complex can be > conscious, at least in principle, even though none of its neurons > may be firing, no feed-back or reentrant loop" IIT3.0 > > > Basically from my limited understanding of IIT3.0 > > Consciousness requires three things Information, Integration and > Exclusion. > > Feedback satisfies integration, as the components have to be > interconnected. > > Information implies that there are past memories which can affect > present actions, or that memories could be acquired to affect > future actions. > > And Exclusion means that the consciousness has defined borders. > > > It would seem that it may be a bit tricky with the program > switching that happens in a modern CPU. Though I'm fairly certain > that with FPGA's it would apply quite smoothly. For instance after > some FPGA circuits have been set up, even if they are not active, > they could still be passively conscious, ready for input. > > It may be similar if you consider things loaded in RAM or cache as > passively conscious and actively conscious when processing in CPU. > Similarly a kernel loaded in GPU would be conscious, though I > think there would be some question as to the quality of > consciousness, whether it might be highly modular, and thus of a > low phi. IF however all the kernels are working together, via local > or glboal memory, they could be considered strongly integrated, and > would be a singular consciousness. > > On 2/13/17, Steve Richfield <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Your Central Metabolic Control System (CMCS) is clearly both > intelligent and independent. It appears to have abilities > approximating a PhD Control Systems Engineer, and often works at > cross purposes to your conscious intentions to keep you alive and > healthy. > > CMCS malfunctions often look a LOT like demonic possession. > > Steve > > On Feb 11, 2017 12:11 PM, "Dr Miles Dyson" > <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > When I fall asleep and loose consciousness, the neurons in my > brain do not rearrange themselves such that no feedback loops > exist. And there are many feedback loops that exist in the brain, > but I don't have many consciousnesses, I have but one. For both of > those reasons consciousness and neural net feedback loops are not > one and the same thing. > > On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > I don't concur, but it is an interesting placement of the minimum > for (machine) 'consciousness'. I did not realize that 'stateless' > 'pure functions' could be called 'feed forward'. If global effects > were sufficient to induce 'consciousness' then any program with > global effects could be called conscious. Even assuming that you > were being more specific than that I still don't think structures > that can carry states between calls (in the ways that you were > thinking) would be sufficient for conscious behaviors to emerge.. > > Jim Bromer > > On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > I've been promoting Integrated Information Theory for a while but > I finally sat down and read the whole thing yesterday. > > Explicitly it mentions that feed forward neuronets are 'zombies' > or unconscious while recurrent neuronets are conscious due to the > feedback loops. > > So now I'm wondering which classical programming structures are > 'zombies' and which are conscious. > > It would seem by analogy that stateless or pure functions are > zombies since they simply feed forward. > > Wheras structures that carry state between calls such as objects > and actors are conscious. > > Do you concur? > > > > > -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and OpenKeychain. my > fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now>> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b> > > 5> > > > > > | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>;> Your > > Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> > > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now>> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/26973278-698fd9ee > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/26973278-698fd9ee> > > > > > > | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>;> Your Subscription > > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now>> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac>> > > > > > > > > | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>;> Your Subscription > > <http://www.listbox.com> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > > > AGI Archives: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae> > > > > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>; > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > > > AGI Archives: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d> > > > > Modify Your Subscription: > > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>; > > eb0005 > > > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > > > AGI Archives: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5 > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5> > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>; Powered by Listbox: > http://www.listbox.com > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > > > AGI Archives: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d> > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>; > > eb0005 > > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > > > AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5 > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5> > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>; Powered by Listbox: > http://www.listbox.com > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > > > AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d> > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Powered by Listbox: > http://www.listbox.com > > > -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail and OpenKeychain. my > fingerprint is bd7e 6e2a e625 6d47 f7ed 30ec 86d8 fc7c fad7 2729 > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/24379807-653794b5> > | Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription > [Powered by Listbox] <http://www.listbox.com> > > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d> > | Modify > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; beb0005> > > > Your Subscription [Powered by Listbox] <http://www.listbox.com> > - -- Logan Streondj, A dream of Gaia's future. twitter: https://twitter.com/streondj You can use encrypted email with me, how to: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ key fingerprint: BD7E 6E2A E625 6D47 F7ED 30EC 86D8 FC7C FAD7 2729 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJYqEYZAAoJEIbY/Hz61ycpa4oQAK3ROLUCVh11SPWnTwnmgW4Q yURerCTdLsiVEW+CwoogQZxgSFnf34ZJ2FehBkw9VfKnTVZ6EQFaIdnPvHpZKG2f HHsnESCViLJeInCxSajrfmJLgJ7dYfeKXki/Wmd7OhY5Lw3t21p/hK+iSjvXTpBe M5Sy+RJPpFzzbcn/B1SsSgFVjvUF58IkUYwKLN2LgZuRJv3I755NK7xjXD5IDvrQ yuPe/CLlRitRpShHDuDZfLFRgwnIemsilIHpExkn2eWqff4qrP7dO16VqOdFAim8 xYdy07XAD3nF0BWUlML42jQY7lGI6KL7YR21FhiZO3HDuZbNNYzN34Lcx0vGPEck XRCEk2tnjPYMCVzWBolzW+dTnTa8hsUAOQ0TGgAa+0bEkR/TQ8Ndrzbsq5Rx3TvA Xv3/4mwJ6E6TDTdfNYMblLDBQGuxfvMbnpwV/Nhu/BJdoR//N7s9jguNzO448cSX HA6yCewE545NUEsqmxNA1XPvkfJgiwHOYU/0QFr9iyRFDJAILNf7dtlE/O93hOCV cr2CXjuT0t9nth6ZApon1/sk5NTsJpV5LHqAzket+l0RJeLv9WUKD3vkja84ryLk a4KJd83tUbFR7ATYF1k0daVa1MPSC9jYWDNTJVkiYu7i6sdXltodyyM2yZB5xCpm 8W2GdFDhHlQISZTTzz0R =5F6L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
