James: is non-determinsm USEFUL? other than as I have stated, choosing randomly when we dont know any better? Is there any other way to implement non-determinsm, and is their any use for it?
Check this out - you are, I suggest, working on the assumption that deterministic is reasonable, and nondeterministic/ free is somehow a little crazy. My God, can non-determinism be useful at all, you are effectively asking. And I think that's a perfectly standard, understandable POV/ reaction. Probably the great majority of people would side with that. So can I try and change your perspective? We're talking about dealing with problematic decisions, where the options are more or less balanced, and there is risk and uncertainty. Like investing on the stockmarket, what to do next about Iraq, how to deal with a difficult person, how to compose your next post, what restaurant to pick tonight, what TV program to watch ... Well, to be determined is by definition, (and in truth), to be closed-minded. To be free is, by definition, (and in truth), to be open-minded. Which would you rather be, personally, and which would you rather your AGI be? Which kind of system (deterministic or free) do you think has a better chance of success and survival in a world that is dynamic, always somewhat unfamiliar, and continually challenging and contradicting your assumptions and world model? ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ratcliff To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That would indeed be free, nondeterministic choice, which, as I understood, Pei ruled out for his system. The only qualifications are: * choosing randomly is only one of an infinity of possible methods for such choice rephrase this one? * the difference between options can be much greater than 5% - humans and, offhand, I imagine, most AGI's, couldn't begin to measure and compare options, with that degree of precision I'm not sure about this... I believe we differentiate to a very fine degree, but I believe we cant verbalize or explain this easily. If you show two girls to me, I can choose which one I prefer... but I cant give reasons for that well, but there are sublte reasons, flick of the hair, upturned nose, smell, etc. Back on the AGI front though, is non-determinsm USEFUL? other than as I have stated, choosing randomly when we dont know any better? Is there any other way to implement non-determinsm, and is their any use for it? I picture in my AI, that occasionaly on its way down a path, it will choose a different road, no real reason, but just an exploration function, so long as the second path had no real downsides, and it may find some new information there that shows it should take that path in teh future... James Ratcliff ----- Original Message ----- From: James Ratcliff To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind More simply even that that, Pei, when it comes across a task and a choice of options, if it sees no benefit > 5% (arbitrary setting or 0%) does your system choose randomly between between the choices? Doesnt this make the system non-deterministic... Otherwise agree with your description. James Ratcliff Pei Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike, I believe many of the confusions on this topic is caused by the following "self-evident" belief: "A system is fundamentally either deterministic or non-deterministic. The human mind, with free will, is fundamentally non-deterministic; a conventional computer, being Turing Machine, is fundamentally deterministic". Based on such a belief, many people think AGI can only be realized by something that is "non-deterministic by nature", whatever that means. This belief, though works fine in some other context, is an oversimplification in the AI/CogSci context. Here, as I said before, whether a system is deterministic may not be taken as an intrinsic nature of the system, but as depending on the description about it. For example, NARS is indeed "nondeterministic" in the usual sense, that is, after the system has obtained a complicated experience, it will be practically impossible for either an observer or the system itself to accurately predict how the system will handle a user-provided task. On the other level of description, NARS is still a deterministic Turing Machine, in the sense that its state change is fully determined by its initial state and its experience, step by step. Now the important point is: when we say that the mind is "nondeterministic", in what sense are we using the term? I believe it is like "it will be practically impossible for either an observer or the mind itself to accurately predict how the system will handle a problem", rather than ""it will be theoretically impossible for an observer to accurately predict how the system will handle a problem, even if the observer has full information about the system's initial state, processing mechanism, and detailed experience, as well as has unlimited information processing power". Therefore, for all practical considerations, including the ones you mentioned, NARS is nondeterministic, since it doesn't process input tasks according to a task-specific algorithm. [If the above description still sounds confusing or contradictionary, you'll have to read my relevant publications. I don't have the intelligence to explain everything by email.] Pei On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner wrote: > Pei, > > Thanks for stating your position (which I simply didn't know about before - > NARS just looked at a glance as if it MIGHT be nondeterministic). > > Basically, and very briefly, my position is that any AGI that is to deal > with problematic decisions, where there is no right answer, will have to be > freely, nondeterministically programmed to proceed on a trial and error > basis - and that is just how human beings are programmed. > (Nondeterministically programmed should not be simply equated with current > kinds of programming - there are an infinity of possible ways of programming > deterministically, ditto for nondeterministically). ----- This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?&; _______________________________________ James Ratcliff - http://falazar.com Looking for something... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? 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