Okay Mike, Let me write down my theory of this phenomenon. my intuition is that brain learns in steps and deltas. The brain takes in a fixed amount of only new information at a time. So when a person who doesn't have too much impressions (image memories) of a chinese person sees a chinese, He takes in the round face and the eyes etc which are new info to the seer.
When the seer sees another chinese person the older chinese persons image comes back into the working memory. The new person is stored as delta of the other person. As the seer sees more and more people the basic structure is no longer new. The new features that get captured become the subtle variations from the basic structure. This ability to identify new information becomes a crucial function of the brain. Thus as time passes with images of chinese people, the seer will be able to capture subtle variation and recognize the person. People who are not musically trained find it difficult to distinguish between notes. But repeated listening to the notes engrave the structure of notes to the memory. And complex and subtle variations of the notes become apparent to the listener as the base notes are already stored in the memory and so no longer new. cheers, Deepak On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > Deepak, > > No it's basically a distraction from the problem. With time and closer > inspection, they will all look different. > > Correction, it IS useful. It probably tells us something about how the > brain and an AGI must work > First you start with a round blob shape for a class of objects - a face > blob, and then you refine it and refine it, add more and more detail, for > different individuals. > > What makes Chinese difficult to individuate at first, is they have a > particular characteristic wh. would be highly distinctive for a Western > individual - relatively slanted eyes. Imagine if a new race all had square > jaws. You can't take your eyes off that feature at first. With time you > learn to make adjustments for it, and notice the individual characteristics > within the narrower eyes. Ditto elephants are hard to individuate at first > because they all have these massively distinctive features of huge ears and > trunks. > > You start general, and gradually individuate - but you have to individuate > - your life depends on being able to distinguish individual characteristics > as well as general forms. > > *From:* deepakjnath <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2010 7:56 PM > *To:* agi <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [agi] How do we hear music > > Mike, > > All chinese look the same for me. But for a chinese person they don't. Why > is this? Is there another clue here? > > Thanks, > Deepak > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > >> David, >> >> There must be a fair amount of cog sci/AI analysis of all this - of how >> the brain analyses and remembers tunes - and presumably leading theories >> (as for vision). Do you or anyone know more here? >> >> Also, you have noted something of extreme importance, wh. is a lot more >> than "a step further". >> >> OTOH you've been analysing how we recognize the same, general tune in >> different, individual renditions. >> >> OTOH you've pointed out, we also recognize the INDIVIDUAL differences >> of/variatiions on the same genre/class - we appreciate the different ways >> Davis/Gillespie play as well as that they're playing the same tune. >> >> Now correct me but isn't the individual dimension of images of all kinds, >> almost entirely missing from AI? The capacity to recognize what >> makes individuals of a species individual, and not just that they belong to >> the same species. Isn't visual object recognition for example almost >> entirely focussed on recognizing general objects rather than individual >> objects - that that's an example of a general doll, rather than an >> individual particularly beaten up, or just slightly and disturbingly altered >> doll? >> >> No doubt AI can recognize individual fingerprints, but it's the capacity >> to recognize individuals as variations on the general - to recognize that he >> has a particularly sarcastic smile, or she has a particularly lyrical, fluid >> walk, or that that tune contrasts harmonious and discordant music (as per >> rap) in a distinctive way - that's missing, no? >> >> >> *From:* David Butler <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2010 3:44 PM >> *To:* agi <[email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [agi] How do we hear music >> >> When we listen to music there are many elements that come into play that >> create our memory of how the song goes. If you take a piece of instrumental >> music, you have the melody, a succession of tones in a certain order, >> duration of each note in the melody, timbre, or tonal quality, (guitar vs >> trombone), time, how fast the song is played. Phrasing, what part of the >> melody is emphasized using volume, change of tone quality etc... Is the >> melody played slurred with all the notes run together or staccato played >> with short notes. >> >> Too take it a step further how do we recognize a solo played by Miles >> Davis rather than Dizzy Gillespie playing the same song both on trumpet but >> sound completely different in style. How do we recognize when two different >> conductors direct the same music with the same orchestra but yet make it >> sound different? >> >> . >> >> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Matt Mahoney <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> deepakjnath wrote: >>> >>> > Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it >>> as the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in >>> which we store memory? >>> >>> For the same reason that gray looks green on a red background. You have >>> more neurons that respond to differences in tones than to absolute >>> frequencies. >>> >>> >>> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* deepakjnath <[email protected]> >>> *To:* agi <[email protected]> >>> *Sent:* Thu, July 22, 2010 3:59:57 PM >>> *Subject:* [agi] How do we hear music >>> >>> Why do we listen to a song sung in different scale and yet identify it as >>> the same song.? Does it have something to do with the fundamental way in >>> which we store memory? >>> >>> cheers, >>> Deepak >>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > > > -- > cheers, > Deepak > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- cheers, Deepak ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
